It's taken 9 years to complete 76 units, and this project is only 50% complete.

Hard to believe, but could be worse. Like Rick Dowell worse.

No, like they could have built too many to quickly and failed (like the oil companies do in this town....drill til you reduce the price on yourself with oversupply), or they could have built cheap apartment style buildings. If there was such a pent up demand for for-sale housing downtown you would have seen others jumping in to fill the demand as there have been lots and lots of places to build condos downtown. Given that banks here have been extremely unwilling to loan on condo's, it takes a deliberate and patient developer not to fail.

No, like they could have built too many to quickly and failed (like the oil companies do in this town....drill til you reduce the price on yourself with oversupply), or they could have built cheap apartment style buildings. If there was such a pent up demand for for-sale housing downtown you would have seen others jumping in to fill the demand as there have been lots and lots of places to build condos downtown. Given that banks here have been extremely unwilling to loan on condo's, it takes a deliberate and patient developer not to fail.

You're always such a positive guy, Rover. Practically bubbly.

So, please go out and develop something and prove me wrong. I would love to celebrate a grand accomplishment that defies economic reality. I would be giddy.

So, please go out and develop something and prove me wrong. I would love to celebrate a grand accomplishment that defies economic reality. I would be giddy.

I don't have to go to med school to know that Dr Nick Riviera doesn't know what he's doing. And I don't have to change careers and become a developer to know that the people behind The Hill bungled this development.

Yes, we live in an era when opinions are facts....at least to the people who have them.

If one disregards the effects of risk, and assumes money is free and easily obtained from others, then all things are possible.

Rode my bike through the Hill today and this development must feel so much more complete for a lot of the residents. Most of the construction has now moved outward to last phases. The clubhouse area feels really different with the units going up near it as its mostly closed into the neighborhood. The fountains were on in the cllubhouse and I'm sure residents love having that little pool there. Hopefully it serves as a good community space.

14240

Overall, I think the Hills serves a purpose of getting people downtown who may be used to a suburban ethic and the feel of the neighborhood is definitely suburban even if it is dense. It feels like a gated commiunity (and there are gates in some spots).

With the Hill continuing to grow and much of the construction on Sheridan getting closer to finish, the large grass lot across from the Hill just feels like an incredible space to do something special. I really hope whatever goes into that space is mixed use.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill123117.jpg

Nice density in this whole area!

Rode my bike through the Hill today and this development must feel so much more complete for a lot of the residents. Most of the construction has now moved outward to last phases. The clubhouse area feels really different with the units going up near it as its mostly closed into the neighborhood. The fountains were on in the cllubhouse and I'm sure residents love having that little pool there. Hopefully it serves as a good community space.

14240

Overall, I think the Hills serves a purpose of getting people downtown who may be used to a suburban ethic and the feel of the neighborhood is definitely suburban even if it is dense. It feels like a gated commiunity (and there are gates in some spots).

With the Hill continuing to grow and much of the construction on Sheridan getting closer to finish, the large grass lot across from the Hill just feels like an incredible space to do something special. I really hope whatever goes into that space is mixed use.
I know it seems cool to call this suburban, but what am I missing? Seems like this is different than anywhere else in OKC. No lawns. High density. Walkable. Not gated. Is it the fact it has garages attached? I know many don’t want downtown dwellers to own cars or drive, bit that just isn’t reality.

I know it seems cool to call this suburban, but what am I missing? Seems like this is different than anywhere else in OKC. No lawns. High density. Walkable. Not gated. Is it the fact it has garages attached? I know many don’t want downtown dwellers to own cars or drive, bit that just isn’t reality.

Well the layout of the property gives a very suburban 'neigborhood' vibe considering it has its own streets and the property as a whole is located where it has a wall around it on three sides.

But I think the major suburban vibe is from the interior layouts and finishes, at least IMO.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill123117.jpg

^ this picture of DD and the inner core could pass for any major East Coast city. Incredible low and mid-rise density.

Really looking forward to the next phases of the Hill and this area completely filling in; which appear to be near construction given the ground outlines. ...

I've been saying it for quite a while, but Deep Deuce is OKC's first fully-realized ubran district, with a real grocery store, a decent amount of retail, Aloft hotel, office space, a bunch of restaurants and bars and plentiful housing both for rent and sale.

Well the layout of the property gives a very suburban 'neigborhood' vibe considering it has its own streets and the property as a whole is located where it has a wall around it on three sides.

But I think the major suburban vibe is from the interior layouts and finishes, at least IMO.

This seems to imply that the only urban construction is contemporary, or of retrofit of old buildings. Not so in other cities, and no reason not to have a variety of styles in the core of our city to attract a diversified mosaic of persons.

I am not sure why having streets built for access to housing is considered "suburban". This isn't a gated suburban community, but a new build with public streets and sidewalks snugging the street AND the row houses. Unless you mean the only urban development here would be vertical with no street access.

This fits in with inner city developments all over the country.

My beef with it is that it has taken so long to build-out. If they would just build out the rest, it would sell out. At first, it was hard to get financing on condos/row houses because there weren't comps to support it. Now, there are plenty for lending institutions to have some confidence in the value for financing. They should get this done while money is still cheap and pretty plentiful.

I wonder what the cost would be to cover the tracks with a boardwalk for a walking/jogging trail. That could be easily removed later if the rails are needed. In the meantime, it would be a great amenity for the Hill, the Steelyard, and all the hotels being built on the east end of Bricktown. Mowing and landscaping of the access area would make a great urban finger park. This would be OKCs version of the Highline in NYC....except ours would be a Low Line :) .

I wonder what the cost would be to cover the tracks with a boardwalk for a walking/jogging trail. That could be easily removed later if the rails are needed. In the meantime, it would be a great amenity for the Hill, the Steelyard, and all the hotels being built on the east end of Bricktown. Mowing and landscaping of the access area would make a great urban finger park. This would be OKCs version of the Highline in NYC....except ours would be a Low Line :) .

I really love this idea.

I agree with Rover, I wouldn't call this suburban at all. I'd call the Hill a downtown, low-rise urban townhome PUD.

Notice the sidewalks consistent with the street grid, townhomes having walk-up entrances at the property line, and garage entrances via lane-way; all something very rare with suburban developments, and OKC development in general outside of downtown.

The ONLY thing suburban in nature to me are the curving streetscape vs. grid and the community center; but (as mentioned) these features do indeed fit the neighborhood.

This seems to imply that the only urban construction is contemporary, or of retrofit of old buildings. Not so in other cities, and no reason not to have a variety of styles in the core of our city to attract a diversified mosaic of persons.

I am not sure why having streets built for access to housing is considered "suburban". This isn't a gated suburban community, but a new build with public streets and sidewalks snugging the street AND the row houses. Unless you mean the only urban development here would be vertical with no street access.

This fits in with inner city developments all over the country.

My beef with it is that it has taken so long to build-out. If they would just build out the rest, it would sell out. At first, it was hard to get financing on condos/row houses because there weren't comps to support it. Now, there are plenty for lending institutions to have some confidence in the value for financing. They should get this done while money is still cheap and pretty plentiful.

^ totally agree with this

^ this picture of DD and the inner core could pass for any major East Coast city. Incredible low and mid-rise density.


We are slowly but surely coming along. With the Steelyard and the Hill, Deep Deuce and Bricktown have almost completely grown together. There's still that big parking lot in the middle, but in a few years you won't be able to tell that these were once very, very separate districts.

I think we're probably going to see another big wave of development start up around 2020. With the convention center, the streetcar, First National, the Omni, and the central park, OKC just two years from now is going to have a lot of cool new stuff. These are all actual "game changers" that will radically affect downtown. My guess is that MidTown Renaissance and other investors are waiting to see what the city looks like before they announce anything new.

Ten years from now, I bet Midtown/Automobile Alley/Deep Deuce/Bricktown will have grown together to be almost indistinguishable. It'll be one continuous area with density like you see above. Film Row might have grown into the inner core by that point. Strawberry Fields and the Cotton Mill district will be the areas with really sporadic development and big empty lots.

I know it seems cool to call this suburban, but what am I missing? Seems like this is different than anywhere else in OKC. No lawns. High density. Walkable. Not gated. Is it the fact it has garages attached? I know many don’t want downtown dwellers to own cars or drive, bit that just isn’t reality.

I was not trying to earn cool points, but in my opinion it has a "suburban feel" because of numerous aspects of the design. If you re-read my post you will notice that I did not complain about the garages so I am unsure why you brought that up. Here are some suburban features:
- Suburban street design instead of a grid that connects to other streets
- Locked passcode gates for pedestrians on southwest end (yes, there are other ways in, but the closest pedestrian entrance to Bricktown is locked up, not open)
- Lack of any mixed uses in the development
- Free standing private clubhouse (instread of being integrated into the development)
- While less important, the architecture and interior feel suburban to me, but others can chime in. Just feels very generic and repetitive to me.

These are not all necessarily criticisms as I clearly stated in my previous post. Some of these factors are realities of the layout and geography, others were development choices. I like the development in many ways and I hope it thrives. But, in the end, they all add up to a dense, albeit suburban-feeling neighborhood that feels like it is meant to be disconnected, not interact with the surrounding city.

There are tons and tons of older row houses in older areas of many older cities that have no “mixed use”element. And, I’ve been to plenty with restricted pedestrian to certain areas. In lots of European Cities I’ve walked all kinds of curved urban high density streets. I think some might be surprised at the diversity of great urban neighborhoods worldwide.

Interior design is not “urban/suburban”.

I don't agree that the street layout is "suburban" and not all that detached. As Rover commented, there are many urban developments that are even more separated than the Hill is. Also, not being mixed-use does not eliminate it from being urban.

Check out this street. In the heart of London, all-residential, street layout is not gridded, and is connected to the rest of London with one street, would this not urban then? It is to me.
https://image.ibb.co/cao7Wb/s_hill_park_london.png

^^^
That street in London does not look like the Hill. That looks like it's connected to a city where people can walk down the street and get to other parts of the city... more than that, it looks like a sidewalk designed for anyone. That sidewalk looks like it is open to anyone, which is a point I forgot to mention. The sidewalk in front of the Hill does NOT feel like a public sidewalk. It goes behind a wall that makes it feel like it belongs to the residents, not all pedestrians. Once you enter the Hill development, it does not have this feel in my opinion.

I completely agree with the point that urbanism comes in many forms. I've also traveled to varities of urban cities all over the world. Of course, not all streets in urban neighborhoods are mixed use, but, it is true that good urbanism requires mixed uses. So, the question then becomes, if the Hill lacks mixed uses, how well is it connected to the streets and neighborhoods around it? To what degree does the development encourage interactions? I think the Hill connects in some ways and feels disconnected in others.

Instead of discussing this in binaries (urban/suburban), what if we discussed it on a spectrum (more urban/more suburban)? My point was only that I would label the Hill as something like somewhat urban for the reasons I listed above. I'm not saying it's not urban, but that despite it's density, it has a suburban feel. Do y'all think the Hill represents the best possible urbanism for what could have been developed there? If so, then we disagree. If you think it's not a perfect urban development that could have been improved then we agree. That's all I'm saying.

I guess some people just have a very rigid view of what urban is. That concept loses credibility when you visit great vibrant, lasting, prospering urban areas all over the world. Urban development is not by a template, but is a mosaic. If someone hates the Hill, they should just say so instead of trying to negatively categorize it. This is like like labeling people liberal or conservative as a way to avoid discussing real issues. One may not like the Hill but it isn’t suburban style.

The Hill backs up to an interstate, and when construction on it began there was very little stuff around. It doesn't have great connections to surrounding areas, but that's because of where it is. It isn't such a large area that it really needs to be mixed use. It's a short walk to the rest of Deep Deuce or to Bricktown, so I don't see that as being a big deal. I wish the place were moving faster as far as construction goes, it seems like it has been moving at a crawl forever. But the stuff that has been built looks good to me.

I feel this will age well. Part of what makes it look suburban is that everything is new. Once the landscaping matures and the brick ages these will look more urban and fit into the area a lot better than they do now. Give this some time.

IMO, it's the interiors that are way too suburban.

I agree many of the units have way too much dark wood and just a look that to me doesn't fit. Some however are more contemporary and I like those a lot more. The amenities at the Hill are a nice touch. Will be good when they finish off more units on the far east side which will insulate the main area some from the highway.

Curious about the overall market with the number of upcoming high end projects - Villa Teresa + the rumored 8 story across the street from VT + Cirrus (only 4 units but very high end) and maybe more of which I am not aware.

IMO, it's the interiors that are way too suburban.

This. The hill is awesome and we would love to live there, especially with John Rex and the growth of the urban core. Unfortunately, the price per sq ft at the hill, combined with an "edmond" styled interior is too much to overcome. I do love the location and the exteriors!

^

The Bower is not quite as expensive but will be hitting the market soon.

I've yet to see any sales materials or specific price list but I'm sure it's coming soon as construction is already moving fast.

I agree many of the units have way too much dark wood and just a look that to me doesn't fit. Some however are more contemporary and I like those a lot more. The amenities at the Hill are a nice touch. Will be good when they finish off more units on the far east side which will insulate the main area some from the highway.

Curious about the overall market with the number of upcoming high end projects - Villa Teresa + the rumored 8 story across the street from VT + Cirrus (only 4 units but very high end) and maybe more of which I am not aware.
What is the rumored 8 story across VT?

IMO, it's the interiors that are way too suburban.
What does that even mean?

Is modern or contemporary and cramped the only thing that is acceptable "urban" style? Or, is the complaint they are too big? I've stayed in plenty of established urban cores and in residences of way more traditional decor. Or, is the problem that they have attached garages?

What does that even mean?

Is modern or contemporary and cramped the only thing that is acceptable "urban" style? Or, is the complaint they are too big? I've stayed in plenty of established urban cores and in residences of way more traditional decor. Or, is the problem that they have attached garages?

For me its not only that they feel very traditional. but there are SO many Elements it makes it hard for the space to be anything BUT traditional. from the texture on the walls to woodwork. it feels like generic interiors of McMansions for me. I'd rather see clean straight forward interiors with great finishes that can be taken many directions depending on the style of the owner. Don't know how better to explain it its just a feeling I get in some spaces.

To me, the interior finishes and other details look straight out of a mid-level Edmond tract home.

Completely different than what you find in other condos downtown.


And no one is complaining or saying its unacceptable, just observation and opinion.


Rover, you really need to stop being so bombastic in your posts. It's getting old.

What is the rumored 8 story across VT?

I've heard there is something in the works there - preliminary stages, but multi-story residential and pretty high end.

I do get what Rover is saying and technically agree. The difference in design is not urban vs suburban; it's contemporary vs traditional.

That said, I also understand what Pete is getting at, which is that most of the interiors that we have seen in ads and listings for The Hill are traditional in nature, which seems to be targeted more toward people who may be coming from the suburbs, have lived in larger and more traditional homes in places like Edmond and Norman and Yukon.

But I don't think this is at all a bad thing; taste is completely subjective and there should be room for all kinds, which is the strength of a city. Diversity of choice, and diversity of outlook, I mean. It's what makes a city a strong and vibrant place. As soon as something becomes homogeneous it loses the thing that makes cities special, places for innovation, idea sharing and the like. The design at The Hill may be more targeted as switch product for empty nesters or suburbanites looking to dip their toe, but that's completely cool. Come in...the water's fine! Just don't immediately try to turn all of downtown into a quiet leafy enclave to suit your own tastes. Remember what drew you in the first place.

The main thing I get bent on is when someone tries to impose less-walkable design OUTSIDE their property in urban areas. At that point you are imposing your tastes and preferences on others, and sorry, you're outnumbered.

But once you buy one, you can gut it make it however you want....

Exactly. If you catch one during the build, I'm sure you can also build to spec.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill082518.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill082518b.jpg

Great shots......is there still a small hotel going in on the empty lot to the west?

That is supposed to be Hotel Indigo but after getting design approval I haven't seen any building permits filed.

How's the momentum on sales? If I remember right (and without looking back in this thread), it seems like they were usually starting on the next building before the previous one was finished, but I don't see the next building starting... just curious.

I only see what the MLS gives me but currently there are 7 Actives For Sale, 1 Pending, and in the last 6 months there have been only 4 sold.

I think it would have been neat if they had the units curve with the road somehow, I am thinking of something similar to the houses you seen in the movie Paddington.

https://newsok.com/article/5608868/urban-renewal-authority-calls-for-new-development-plan

Just so folks know what that article is about...


The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority is asking developer Bill Canfield to come up with a new plan to complete The Hill in Deep Deuce after determining he is in default of the original agreement struck with the trust 13 years ago.

They should have changed to contemporary many years ago. The traditional interior designs are deal killers for plenty of buyers.

Hard to believe the original completion date for this project was NINE years ago.

I've gone on record many times about my displeasure with how this entire project has been handled.

From original selection from the various proposals, to timing, to raising the unit pricing by a huge amount from what was proposed, to allowing the current developers to cherry-pick the best lots to develop and now only leaving the remainder if Canfield's group is forced out.

At this point the city has no leverage. I doubt if Canfield cares much about those remaining lots.

Drain the Swamp!

How much is it to buy a lot here?

It's under OCURA control so I don't think it works that way?

It's owned by OCURA but they have a purchase agreement with Canfield.

In order for anyone else to buy that property, OCURA would first have to terminate the current contract.

Then, there has to be a public process where there are bids taken before anything can be sold to the private sector.

It's owned by OCURA but they have a purchase agreement with Canfield.

In order for anyone else to buy that property, OCURA would first have to terminate the current contract.

Then, there has to be a public process where there are bids taken before anything can be sold to the private sector.

So it would be near impossible to divvy this up into lots and sell each piece of land to individuals?

And if not the land to individuals, it would be great if you could get a developer in there who owns the land and is responsible for initial utility construction but who ultimately sells the development rights to individuals to come in and do whatever they want (within some sort of HOA guidelines that also work with the existing stock). It may end up in a few 900 to 1200 sq.ft. units which are sorely needed downtown...I can't really comprehend how all of our for sale housing stock downtown is north of 1,200 sq ft.

High end market is kinda being tested at Hill right now.....4 units priced at $899,900 or higher. The 899 unit is marked down from 939 original list. Two of the 4 are over $1 mill.

High end market is kinda being tested at Hill right now.....4 units priced at $899,900 or higher. The 899 unit is marked down from 939 original list. Two of the 4 are over $1 mill.

Don't you want height added to the Core? This would seem to shoot that down. You almost have to have sky high prices for sky high buildings.

High end market is kinda being tested at Hill right now.....4 units priced at $899,900 or higher. The 899 unit is marked down from 939 original list. Two of the 4 are over $1 mill.

Are two of these Durants old place that has been split back into two units?

^ I believe one is - 420 NE 2nd. 416 NE 2nd is also for sale and was not part of KD’s deal. 422 was the other side of KD’s and sold for 1.1 about a year ago.