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southernskye
11-12-2008, 09:12 AM
The Thunder has kept a tradition that began with the New Orleans Hornets when they were given shelter here for two seasons after Hurricane Katrina. Itís a pregame prayer.
Hornets owner George Shinn said one of the first things he noticed about our city after his team arrived was the religious nature of so many people. Thus a prayer became routine before Hornets games. Since the NBA was new to many Oklahomans, most folks probably figured a prayer was routine everywhere else in the league.
Not so. The brief prayer ritual was mentioned last week by a Minneapolis writer after the Timberwolves played the Thunder, our new and permanent team.
So how does the NBA get away with a prayer and other institutions, particularly schools, either do not or cannot?
You wonít find prayers being said before the high school football playoff games this week. Itís separation of church and state, of course.
The government, through the taxpayers, pays for public school athletic facilities. The NBA, in contrast, is a private organization.
Yet the government, through the taxpayers, paid for every dime that went into the Ford Center. We donít see a difference.

Now I know I won't ever be going to a game.

Luke
11-12-2008, 09:19 AM
I thought you went to church?

PennyQuilts
11-12-2008, 09:38 AM
For many, sports is their religion.

Martin
11-12-2008, 09:39 AM
yet the government, through the taxpayers, paid for every dime that went into the ford center.

so... organizations like... say... billy graham should be barred from using the ford center because it was paid for by tax payers? the thing is, the okc thunder is a private entity that pays to use a publicly funded space. last i checked, this is a free country... if you don't like prayer, don't pray. if you're offended by prayer, complain to the team. if you don't get satisfaction from that, then don't go... seriously... every public display of religion is not a 'separation of church and state' issue.

-M

Luke
11-12-2008, 09:41 AM
But seriously, you mentioned you go to church. How can a prayer offend someone who goes to church?

southernskye
11-12-2008, 09:43 AM
Rather I go to church or not isn't the point. This is a Taxpayer funded building owned by the city. If i want to pray or hear prayers, I can go to church.

Christianity is NOT the only religion in this country.

PennyQuilts
11-12-2008, 09:44 AM
A lot of people don't like prayer in pubic places on principal, regardless of whether they are church goers.

Me? I'm not a church goer but I LIKE prayers in public places! :)

Luke
11-12-2008, 09:49 AM
so... organizations like... say... billy graham should be barred from using the ford center because it was paid for by tax payers? the thing is, the okc thunder is a private entity that pays to use a publicly funded space. last i checked, this is a free country... if you don't like prayer, don't pray. if you're offended by prayer, complain to the team. if you don't get satisfaction from that, then don't go... seriously... every public display of religion is not a 'separation of church and state' issue.

-M

Exactly.

route66gal, only non-religious events can happen at a taxpayer funded building?

Why not represent all of your taxpayers who funded the building by having a wide assortment of events that cater to all lifestyles and religions?

southernskye
11-12-2008, 09:50 AM
But seriously, you mentioned you go to church. How can a prayer offend someone who goes to church?


ME??

No I've never stated on here that I go to church nor have I ever said I don't go.

kevinpate
11-12-2008, 10:04 AM
The FC was/is erected by public funds. However, it is rented/leased to various groups, and that includes the owner group which provides the pro level roundball entertainment locally.

A pre-game prayer is 100% not a church/state issue in this set of circumstances. A private group paid to use a facility for their purpose for a specified period of time. Any such renter who wishes to begin with a prayer, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, interfaith, or yes something quite Pagan, that's their choice.

They can not compel you to participate, but they absolutely can include such an activity in their program.

Given the majority position of Christian influences within our citizenry, the Thunder pre-game prayer existing comes as no surprise to me, nor do the many faith based programs which rent the center each year. Many of those can truly pack the house with believers.

Pray to whomever you pray to, or don't pray at all if that is your preference and custom, but separation church/state is simply a non-starter as a basis for the objection.

Luke
11-12-2008, 10:09 AM
ME??

No I've never stated on here that I go to church nor have I ever said I don't go.

Whoa... I'm sorry. For some reason, I read your name and thought route66gal. I apologize profusely. No offense meant.

Sorry. :)

worthy cook
11-12-2008, 10:17 AM
"Thanks for letting us be here and for good health, lets hope for a safe game for both teams, thank our troops for protecting us, ect"

This is basically what you hear 99% of the time. It doesn't matter what religion is up there saying these things or if there was no pre game prayer.

Fact is we should all be thankfull and if you are going to bitch about a 12-20 second prayer of thanks, then don't come and watch it on tv.

Blangdon
11-12-2008, 10:20 AM
How one's prayer can be offense to anyone is beyond me. I simply do not understand why anyone would be afraid to experience another custom, culture, etc. It's time to open our minds. It doesn't help to simply say people need to be more open when all we do is open one door and close another. Lighten up people...

JakeZula
11-12-2008, 10:31 AM
As an avid believer in the separation of church and state, I'm no fan of public prayer. However, I fully agree that the NBA as a private entity should be able to do whatever they want with the space they're renting. So the taxpayers paid for the Ford Center? So what? Musicians that come through here are allowed to express their political and religious beliefs. If a country musician wants to sing Kum-by-yah and praise Jesus, let him. If someone else wants to come play a concert and hail Satan, let him. Our public contribution to the Ford Center has the purpose of generating more revenue for OKC. Whether it's Billy Graham or Marilyn Manson bringing in those dollars makes no difference to me.

bretthexum
11-12-2008, 12:29 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize this only happened here.

VintageRacer
11-12-2008, 12:35 PM
What surprises me is that this is even an issue.

metro
11-12-2008, 12:41 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize this only happened here.

It doesn't. I've heard it in other states, and if that's going to stop someone from coming to a game, then that's fine, their beliefs are more important to them, just like some of the owners of this teams beliefs are more important to them. This is a non-issue IMO and could go on all day and night if we wanted to get nit picky about things.

Bobby821
11-12-2008, 01:21 PM
Rather I go to church or not isn't the point. This is a Taxpayer funded building owned by the city. If i want to pray or hear prayers, I can go to church.

Christianity is NOT the only religion in this country.

Correct, But Christianity is the only TRUE REAL religion in this country though.

southernskye
11-12-2008, 01:29 PM
Correct, But Christianity is the only TRUE REAL religion in this country though.


It's no more real than any other religion.

MadMonk
11-12-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't want to pray, just stand there quietly. That's what I do. Is it so hard to be respectul of others beliefs?

Luke
11-12-2008, 01:54 PM
It's no more real than any other religion.

...says your religion.

Like your religion, some religions claim their Truth is the only Truth.

worthy cook
11-12-2008, 02:07 PM
could be worse......

FOXNews.com - 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450445,00.html)

OKCMallen
11-12-2008, 02:30 PM
Correct, But Christianity is the only TRUE REAL religion in this country though.

Oh come on, get over yourself. No need to attempt to offend people.

southernskye
11-12-2008, 02:49 PM
...says your religion.

Like your religion, some religions claim their Truth is the only Truth.

Are you Jewish or something ?
and yes i am baiting you .

My faith or lack of faith is immaterial. But if it make you judgemental folks feel better, I belong to the Methodist Church but I don't go regularly.

Bobby821
11-12-2008, 03:02 PM
Oh come on, get over yourself. No need to attempt to offend people.

Offend how? It's the truth there is only 1 true God and thats the God that created us and this world and everything in it. All other gods are false gods and are worthless. The people who worship idols like Buda or a stick of wood are worshiping false gods. There is only 1 True God and he sent his son to die on the cross for us so that we may have our sins forgiven and be able to enter into Heaven and be with him for ever and ever.

PennyQuilts
11-12-2008, 03:08 PM
Okay, that is TWO I am putting on ignore...

southernskye
11-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Offend how? It's the truth there is only 1 true God and thats the God that created us and this world and everything in it. All other gods are false gods and are worthless. The people who worship idols like Buda or a stick of wood are worshiping false gods. There is only 1 True God and he sent his son to die on the cross for us so that we may have our sins forgiven and be able to enter into Heaven and be with him for ever and ever.
:rolleyes:

OKCMallen
11-12-2008, 03:26 PM
Offend how? It's the truth there is only 1 true God and thats the God that created us and this world and everything in it. All other gods are false gods and are worthless. The people who worship idols like Buda or a stick of wood are worshiping false gods. There is only 1 True God and he sent his son to die on the cross for us so that we may have our sins forgiven and be able to enter into Heaven and be with him for ever and ever.

Because the zombie son of himself that says we're going to hell if we don't symbolically (and literally if you're Catholic) cannabalize his body makes WAY more objective sense than Buddha or a stick of wood. Just sayin' for argument's sake.

Besides, if it were such plain ol', easy-to-see truth, then no faith would be involved. Always baffles me how people are proud of having faith and say you need faith are very quick to assert the absolute concrete truth of their beliefs as well. The two, in the purely objective sense, are mutually exclusive.


Mods? I smell a thread move/lock? :tiphat:

Midtowner
11-12-2008, 03:32 PM
The two, in the purely objective sense, are mutually exclusive

This is because most folks fail to independently consider/analyze their own beliefs and the foundation thereof. But you knew that.

Luke
11-12-2008, 03:34 PM
Are you Jewish or something ?
and yes i am baiting you .

My faith or lack of faith is immaterial. But if it make you judgemental folks feel better, I belong to the Methodist Church but I don't go regularly.

Everyone is judgmental, including you. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Your statement that all religions are equal is a judgment call. I'm saying, your religion (or at least your worldview) claims that all religions are equal.

And all I'm saying is that other religions claim that all religions are not equal and some even say that everyone but theirs is wrong.

JakeZula
11-12-2008, 03:42 PM
From my philosophical (not religious) standpoint, all religions that claim to be the true religion are wrong. Any religion that concedes that there can be no certainty is on the right track...

Midtowner
11-12-2008, 03:45 PM
Luke, I think southern might be confusing the principle of tolerance (good) with that of acceptance. While it's fantastic to tolerate other religions and cultures in a civilized society (within the bounds of reason, e.g., I do not support honor killings in fundamentalist Islamic culture), it's not mandatory that we accept the veiwpoint of others.

Without a tolerated diversity of opinion and belief, we have intolerance or homogeneity, one of the two.

Part of faith is believing that of all the thousands of other belief systems out there, yours is the right one. Sure, it's kind of a gamble, and it's unlikely that if there's ONE true path that yours is right, but that's faith... and in the U.S. of A, we tolerate various faiths.

Or at least we're supposed to.

All that aside, southern, while I don't see how it would bother you all that much (since you profess to be a Christian) that we have prayer at games, you're entitled to your beliefs. I think your belief and stance are something only a high functioning retard could come up with, (ergo, no acceptance), but I tolerate you nonetheless.

You are free not to go to games, but I guarantee you, in Oklahoma, by contributing to a more pro-Christian atmosphere, the Thunder will see a lot more families, church groups and religious folks in the stands, and that's what it's all about.... $$$

Luke
11-12-2008, 03:47 PM
From my philosophical (not religious) standpoint, all religions that claim to be the true religion are wrong.

Is that absolutely True?

southernskye
11-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Would a mod please move this to the religion thread.

Turanacus
11-12-2008, 03:51 PM
i went to a La Clippers game, they prayed before hand.

I thought it's a NBA thing, they all do.

betts
11-12-2008, 03:54 PM
I'm not going to get into an argument about religion. I'm not a fan of prayers in school, or other institutions operated by our government, but these prayers at the games are pretty innocuous. I'd look for other things to get upset about, if it were me.

Bobby821
11-12-2008, 04:03 PM
Maybe just Maybe if we allowed Prayer and religion back into our schools and public places this world just might be a better place and we wouldnt have kids shooting other kids at school and all thats going on today in our schools we didnt have 10-20 yrs ago.

Turanacus
11-12-2008, 04:14 PM
true that for shizzle, religion never sparks violence.

OKCMallen
11-12-2008, 04:17 PM
Maybe just Maybe if we allowed Prayer and religion back into our schools and public places this world just might be a better place and we wouldnt have kids shooting other kids at school and all thats going on today in our schools we didnt have 10-20 yrs ago.

Or we can have parents parent. Agnostics and atheists can also be moral people.

Midtowner, I have no idea what you were talking about in response to me, but it smacked of your usual unprovoked sarcastic derision. Forgive me if I misread your tone.

Lord Helmet
11-12-2008, 04:19 PM
Offend how? It's the truth there is only 1 true God and thats the God that created us and this world and everything in it. All other gods are false gods and are worthless. The people who worship idols like Buda or a stick of wood are worshiping false gods. There is only 1 True God and he sent his son to die on the cross for us so that we may have our sins forgiven and be able to enter into Heaven and be with him for ever and ever.

See, but that's all pure speculation and blind faith. I don't see anything out there that's proof of one religion's viability over another. Heck, there isn't any proof that ANY god, false or otherwise exists.



As for the pregame prayer...the Thunder are a privately held organization, so they can pray all they want, however, I'm not sure it belongs in a building paid for with public funds. A lot of people aren't religious, and their beliefs should be respected just as much as the most devout Christian's.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me either way, but it might some.

Midtowner
11-12-2008, 04:24 PM
Midtowner, I have no idea what you were talking about in response to me, but it smacked of your usual unprovoked sarcastic derision. Forgive me if I misread your tone.

The first part was addressed to Luke, the second part, with the sarcastic derision, was addressed to southernskye.

JakeZula
11-12-2008, 04:26 PM
Is that absolutely True?

I think it's the closest to truth we can come.

"When I left him, I reasoned thus with myself: I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know."
-Plato's account of Socrates' trial

Bobby821
11-12-2008, 04:30 PM
See, but that's all pure speculation and blind faith. I don't see anything out there that's proof of one religion's viability over another. Heck, there isn't any proof that ANY god, false or otherwise exists.



As for the pregame prayer...the Thunder are a privately held organization, so they can pray all they want, however, I'm not sure it belongs in a building paid for with public funds. A lot of people aren't religious, and their beliefs should be respected just as much as the most devout Christian's.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me either way, but it might some.

It clearly states in the Bible how life and the world were created and the things in Revelation that were prophisied thousands of years ago are comming to pass in our lifetime the 1 world government and all the famines and world issues are all comming to the end of the world which is told in the Bible which was written over a thousand years ago. so to answer your question yes there is a God who is in control of it all. The evolution therory is bunk theree is no proof in it at all.

JakeZula
11-12-2008, 04:37 PM
It clearly states in the Bible how life and the world were created and the things in Revelation that were prophisied thousands of years ago are comming to pass in our lifetime the 1 world government and all the famines and world issues are all comming to the end of the world which is told in the Bible which was written over a thousand years ago. so to answer your question yes there is a God who is in control of it all. The evolution therory is bunk theree is no proof in it at all.

This is why I will never let my kids go to school in rural OK.

Bobby821
11-12-2008, 04:51 PM
This is why I will never let my kids go to school in rural OK.

What do you mean by that?

John
11-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Next up, people complaining about the National Anthem being played... :rolleyes:

PennyQuilts
11-12-2008, 05:01 PM
I have absolutely no problem with people saying Christian prayers because that means I can swing my pentogram and share my incense.

jbrown84
11-12-2008, 05:10 PM
Now I know I won't ever be going to a game.

Don't be ridiculous.

southernskye
11-12-2008, 05:16 PM
I have absolutely no problem with people saying Christian prayers because that means I can swing my pentogram and share my incense.


Send me a smudge stick.

southernskye
11-12-2008, 05:17 PM
Don't be ridiculous.


That's not the only reason I wouldn't go so don't let it bother you.

jbrown84
11-12-2008, 05:21 PM
.the Thunder are a privately held organization, so they can pray all they want, however, I'm not sure it belongs in a building paid for with public funds.

So how is it different from the Billy Graham Crusade that was held there?

I was at the last game and the prayer was no more than 30 seconds, did not use the name Jesus, and petitioned on behalf of health and safety of the team and fans, and a shout out to the troops. I don't know how anyone could be offended.

PennyQuilts
11-12-2008, 05:40 PM
Personally, I think it is a fine thing for people to show a moment of humility and appreciation for their creator. If you are a non believer, I don't think it would hurt you to be tolerant anymore than I would think it would be too much for a Christian to be respectful if someone of a different religion was politely praying to their god. It is an excellent practice in self discipline. Religion has been a source of many evils in this world - never doubt it - but a respectful, reverent attitude frequently sets a tone of goodwill and tolerance. In the big scheme of things, this particular wiggle on the alleged separation of church and state appears, if not harmless, than potentially helpful.

That being said, no one better be passing the plate or talking about lamb's blood, please. God is Great, God is Good, let us thank her for our food is just fine.

MadMonk
11-12-2008, 11:03 PM
A favorite British comedy sketch:

A Warm Welcome

Ah hello!. It's nice to see you all here. As the more perceptive of you probably realised by now, this is Hell. And I am the Devil (good evening), but you can call me Toby, if you like. We try to keep things informal in here, as well as infernal. That's just a little joke of mine. I tell it every time.

Now, you're all here for... eternity! Ooh! Which I hardly need tell you is a heck of a long time, so you'll all get to know each other pretty well by the end. But for now I'm going to have to split you up in groups. WILL YOU STOP SCREAMING! Thank you.

What's that? No, I'm afraid there aren't any toilets. If you read your Bible, you might have seen that it was damnation without relief, so if you did not go before you came, then I'm afraid you're not going to enjoy yourself very much... but then I believe that's the idea.

All right, off we go now...
Murderers? Murderers over here, please. Thank you. Looters and pillagers over there. Thieves, if you could join them, lawyers and bank managers, you're in that lot too.

Fornicators, if you could step forward? My God, there are a lot of you! Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Male adulterers, if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine in the corner.

Americans, are you here? Look, I'm sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned your entire group. He sends particular condolences to the Mormons who He realizes put in a lot of work. That's the way the wafer crumbles. The Iranians, I'm afraid, can't be with us - someone's been holding them in purgatory for about nine months.

Em... the French, if you could just come down here along with the Germans. I'm sure you'll have plenty to talk about.

Okay, atheists? Atheists over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits. Never mind. And finally, Christians. Christians? Ah, yes, I'm sorry but I'm afraid the Jews were right. If you would come down here, that would be really fine.

Okay. Well, it's over to you, Adolf! And I'll catch you all later at the barbecue. Bye!
:D

OKC4me
11-12-2008, 11:33 PM
Amazing.

And people wonder what is wrong with this world. When a prayer to God offends people, we have problems.

Even if you don't believe in prayer, how is it offensive to ask for the safety of fans, players, and coaches offensive.

Makes me sick.

PennyQuilts
11-13-2008, 07:11 AM
I once watched the food channel show about a barbeque competition. A featured team prayed for victory (I kid you not - they prayed to win a barbeque contest!) before the judges sampled their entry.

They lost.

Luke
11-13-2008, 07:40 AM
I once watched the food channel show about a barbeque competition. A featured team prayed for victory (I kid you not - they prayed to win a barbeque contest!) before the judges sampled their entry.

They lost.

Believe me, God is very particular about His barbeque.

;)

PennyQuilts
11-13-2008, 07:43 AM
Believe me, God is very particular about His barbeque.

;)

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Barbeque is a form of worship for many.

Karried
11-13-2008, 08:25 AM
I've been known to pray for BBQ when especially hungry.

I'm hungry right now.

Dear Lord, please drop me a rib. And a piece of garlic toast if you don't mind.

Amen

I think it's perfectly fine to pray before a game.

Lord Helmet
11-13-2008, 12:27 PM
It clearly states in the Bible how life and the world were created and the things in Revelation that were prophisied thousands of years ago are comming to pass in our lifetime the 1 world government and all the famines and world issues are all comming to the end of the world which is told in the Bible which was written over a thousand years ago. so to answer your question yes there is a God who is in control of it all. The evolution therory is bunk theree is no proof in it at all.

There is absolutely ZERO proof that God exists, or that Genesis/Revelation are or will become true. Show me a shred of scientific evidence that god exists. In fact, if you can do that, write a book and make some cash. No one in the history of the planet has been able to do it yet.

The bible that is currently used by Christians isn't even a direct translation of the original scrolls.

Martin
11-13-2008, 12:36 PM
the bible that is currently used by christians isn't even a direct translation of the original scrolls.

what? you know about the other set of scrolls?

-M