View Full Version : NYT Magazine Article re Thunder



FritterGirl
10-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Don't know if anyone caught tHIS ARTICLE (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/magazine/26NBA-t.html?_r=1&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin)from NYT Magazine. Pretty darn cool!

CuatrodeMayo
10-25-2008, 10:43 PM
Not very favorable descriptions of our fair city.

Karried
10-25-2008, 10:59 PM
no, not yet...

let's prove him wrong.

southernskye
10-25-2008, 11:09 PM
Good article.

CCOKC
10-25-2008, 11:46 PM
I thought the article was a pretty good representation of our city at the present time. We may look back in 20 year and have an NFL team or be a top 20 city or we may not. Those of us that have lived here 20, 30, or in my case 40 years or more can look at how far we have come and think this isn't a fair representation. But we have so much room for improvement and cannot for a moment rest on our laurels of landing our first big league team. Let us use this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I heard Wayne Coyne tell us tonight something to the effect of maybe OKC isn't cool but it's people can be. Think about that a minute. We can't wait for the city to give us things to do, or to make itself better. I know the people on this board care about this city or we would not spend so much time here. Let all of us put the passion for our city into action. Take your talent to make this city a better place for everyone, whether it is teaching, artistic endeavors, feeding the poor or owning a small business. Maybe it is just supporting a small business or going to a Thunder game (even if it is only once or twice a year). Any way I am off my soap box now and off to bed.

Laramie
10-26-2008, 02:58 PM
Great article in light of the fact that it's an outside source (New York Times)!

Luke
10-26-2008, 02:59 PM
It was long and biographical more than anything. Decent article. Kinda "meh" to me though.

My $.02.

okcpulse
10-26-2008, 08:10 PM
I thought the article was a pretty good representation of our city at the present time. We may look back in 20 year and have an NFL team or be a top 20 city or we may not. Those of us that have lived here 20, 30, or in my case 40 years or more can look at how far we have come and think this isn't a fair representation. But we have so much room for improvement and cannot for a moment rest on our laurels of landing our first big league team. Let us use this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I heard Wayne Coyne tell us tonight something to the effect of maybe OKC isn't cool but it's people can be. Think about that a minute. We can't wait for the city to give us things to do, or to make itself better. I know the people on this board care about this city or we would not spend so much time here. Let all of us put the passion for our city into action. Take your talent to make this city a better place for everyone, whether it is teaching, artistic endeavors, feeding the poor or owning a small business. Maybe it is just supporting a small business or going to a Thunder game (even if it is only once or twice a year). Any way I am off my soap box now and off to bed.

My plans exactly upon my return to OKC. Until then, I am busy in Houston piling on the experience points.

CuatrodeMayo
10-27-2008, 08:25 AM
I thought the article was a pretty good representation of our city at the present time. We may look back in 20 year and have an NFL team or be a top 20 city or we may not. Those of us that have lived here 20, 30, or in my case 40 years or more can look at how far we have come and think this isn't a fair representation. But we have so much room for improvement and cannot for a moment rest on our laurels of landing our first big league team. Let us use this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I heard Wayne Coyne tell us tonight something to the effect of maybe OKC isn't cool but it's people can be. Think about that a minute. We can't wait for the city to give us things to do, or to make itself better. I know the people on this board care about this city or we would not spend so much time here. Let all of us put the passion for our city into action. Take your talent to make this city a better place for everyone, whether it is teaching, artistic endeavors, feeding the poor or owning a small business. Maybe it is just supporting a small business or going to a Thunder game (even if it is only once or twice a year). Any way I am off my soap box now and off to bed.

Well said.

That is why I moved to back OKC.

floater
10-27-2008, 11:28 AM
I thought the article was a pretty good representation of our city at the present time. We may look back in 20 year and have an NFL team or be a top 20 city or we may not. Those of us that have lived here 20, 30, or in my case 40 years or more can look at how far we have come and think this isn't a fair representation. But we have so much room for improvement and cannot for a moment rest on our laurels of landing our first big league team. Let us use this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I heard Wayne Coyne tell us tonight something to the effect of maybe OKC isn't cool but it's people can be. Think about that a minute. We can't wait for the city to give us things to do, or to make itself better. I know the people on this board care about this city or we would not spend so much time here. Let all of us put the passion for our city into action. Take your talent to make this city a better place for everyone, whether it is teaching, artistic endeavors, feeding the poor or owning a small business. Maybe it is just supporting a small business or going to a Thunder game (even if it is only once or twice a year). Any way I am off my soap box now and off to bed.


CCOKC hit it right on the nose. Let's face it, OKC's success has been driven by institutions -- the city, the chamber, nonprofits, and universities. While not bad, it is far from a sign of a truly vibrant and engaging community. I still see Tulsa as a beacon of the individual efforts made by restaurant owners, store owners, tastemakers, and civic entrepreneurs. Granted, we have a few of them, whose activity has turned individual passions into institutional-type civic actors -- Brian Hearn, Justan Floyd, and gals at deadCENTER for establishing an independent film community; Mike Knopp and rowing; the girls of the Girlie Show. Same with business owners like Kurt Fleischfresser, the Bollingers of Full Circle, and (?) Schlegel and Steve Mason of the Auto Alley bike stores. But we need more people doing what they're doing -- cultivating tastes by virtue of their businesses and events.

About the piece: it stings me what Schoenfeld wrote about Tulsa, but it's true. But in a way, I like that he set low expectations for hoops fans visiting for NBA games. We've received the most glowing reviews from visitors who had very low expectations. That's why it pains me when I see marketers use superlatives to describle OKC (fastest-growing, best, etc) -- you're only setting people up for disappointment. It is ALWAYS better to underpromise and overdeliver. You wouldn't believe how charming and alluring the phrase "a nice little place" is for a restaurant, when compared to "the best steakhouse" or "the best place for dim sum".

So I agree with CCOKC, let's use these low expectations to work harder and surprise people when they get here.

BDP
10-27-2008, 07:33 PM
it stings me what Schoenfeld wrote about Tulsa, but it's true.

Maybe the part about the hills is true, but Tulsa is in no way superior in those other elements (and even a lot of East OKC is similar to much of Tulsa in terms of "rolling hills"). Maybe they have a little more in the way of traditional arts, but OKC kicks its butt head to head in the young arts, especially in terms of events and organization. For every strength one city has, the other has it equalled, except again, maybe in topography.

I have nothing against Tulsa, but let's face it, it is way over sold. I have family and friends that live there and love it and sell it hard, yet, while I always enjoy it, nothing we ever do when I go there is impressive to the extent that I think it's in some way better than Oklahoma City. Most of the time it comes off as a very tired city with little forward direction, which I think is unfortunate and is something I would never actually say to a Tulsan, because all they would do is freak out and start deriding OKC with the same cliched and often unfounded and outdated critcisms. At their core, these cities are still some of the most similar cities I have been to and/or lived in. The only real tangible difference that would affect my decision to choose between the two if I had to, is that Oklahoma City seems to be more aggressively addressing its shortcomings, while Tulsa seems content to rest on this old idea that it's better than OKC, as if that was any kind of real goal and is often simply not the case.

progressiveboy
10-27-2008, 08:03 PM
Even in its own state, Tulsa would seem to have greater national prospects, with its rolling hills, mansion-filled neighborhoods and cultural accouterments of a serious place, as opposed to flat, brown, insular Oklahoma City.

Wow. Pretty scathing and from an outsider in the Big Apple. Even though I have bashed OKC (which is my hometown), and supported Dallas my new home, I will have to say this. Dallas is flat, brown and lacks topography just like OKC, however it addressed it's shortcomings by having excellent restaurants, shopping, cultural arts (New $350 million dollar opera house) slated to open next year. I certainly would not want OKC to emulate Dallas but the biggest frustration I saw when I did live in OKC is 95 percent of the residents bashed it and said it was nothing but a big redneck, hick town. I would like to see OKC rise and prove the naysayers wrong, including myself.

floater
10-27-2008, 08:21 PM
Maybe the part about the hills is true, but Tulsa is in no way superior in those other elements (and even a lot of East OKC is similar to much of Tulsa in terms of "rolling hills"). Maybe they have a little more in the way of traditional arts, but OKC kicks its butt head to head in the young arts, especially in terms of events and organization. For every strength one city has, the other has it equalled, except again, maybe in topography.

I think there's something to be said about the traditional arts. If you are a casual culture lover, you will be pulled in by those conventional art institutions -- the orchestra, the opera, and the ballet (which in Tulsa is world class). Sometimes I wonder if we are truly a culturally developed community if the most popular shows in town are touring musicals, which have been stamped as okay by mainstream audiences. I do hear that the Philharmonic is doing well, however.

Cultural appreciation is harder to demonstrate to visitors and newcomers with that young arts movement you speak of. But I do think its great what's happening with the events like Momentum and the Girlie Show. That arts community is just not as obvious to the passerby.


I have nothing against Tulsa, but let's face it, it is way over sold. I have family and friends that live there and love it and sell it hard, yet, while I always enjoy it, nothing we ever do when I go there is impressive to the extent that I think it's in some way better than Oklahoma City. Most of the time it comes off as a very tired city with little forward direction, which I think is unfortunate and is something I would never actually say to a Tulsan, because all they would do is freak out and start deriding OKC with the same cliched and often unfounded and outdated critcisms. At their core, these cities are still some of the most similar cities I have been to and/or lived in. The only real tangible difference that would affect my decision to choose between the two if I had to, is that Oklahoma City seems to be more aggressively addressing its shortcomings, while Tulsa seems content to rest on this old idea that it's better than OKC, as if that was any kind of real goal and is often simply not the case.

Here are some of the reasons why have such a high view of Tulsans. Walk the canal in Bricktown and you'll see Tulsa businesses -- Skkybar (Kanbar folks), Bourbon Street Cafe, Zio's. Camille's Sidewalk cafe is based in Tulsa. Some new establishments, like Buddha Tao and In the Raw, were started by a Tulsan. Sure, we gave them Ted's, Red Rock Canyon Grill, and Mahogany, but will any of those places be mistaken as Tulsan? I guarantee you 98% of people patronizing those canal businesses think they started in OKC. My point is, Tulsa more shapes Oklahoma City "culture" than vice versa.

Tulsa has the music fan base to bring in up and coming acts to Cain's and Brady Theater, while we're rehashing the sixties and seventies with the Zoo Amphitheater. And it's such a generator of entertainment talent -- look at Bill Hader, Wayman Tisdale, Alfre Woodard, Jeanne Tripplehorn -- heck even Kristin Chenoweth, Broadway star, who OKC claims, is from Broken Arrow. Sure, we've produced Vince Gill and The Flaming Lips, but how long can we piggyback on them, and Toby Keith? Garth Brooks and David Cook chose to live in Tulsa.

To me Tulsa is the opposite of OKC in the way it works. The government and institutions are bumbling while individuals -- entrepreneurs, musicians, music fans, etc make up for that. I love how OKC government has had a unified agenda this past decade or so to produce the city we have today, but the true sign of a vital community is in the energy and creativity of its residents, not its government, institutions, or celebrities (again, the Flaming Lips). It is much easier to get institutions on the right track than it is to motivate a population to do something original.

I know this is harsh commentary, but I only say it because I love OKC and want it to live up to its potential.

metro
10-29-2008, 08:17 AM
floater, you have some valid points, but I'd say you need to get out more then. OKC has plenty of local, young entrepreneurs in nearly every category, so does Norman. Western Avenue, Downtown, Paseo, Plaza District, MidTown, NW 23rd Corridor, Capitol Hill, Oklahoma River, Asian District, any of these ring a bell? They all have tons of local talent and local establishments and were pretty much started by local entrepreneurs, not government leaders. Where are Tulsa's equivalents? Cain's Ballroom, Cherry St. and Brady District are about all I can come up with. Also, there is not a Camille's Sidewalk Cafe on the canal, or anywhere downtown for that matter.

jbrown84
10-29-2008, 04:06 PM
I would much rather have great one-location restaurants than have all the chains in the world based here.

There certainly are some stinging things coming out of that article. There's definitely some bias there. And what I really hate is how many times he mentions the success of other small market NBA teams and then turns around and says that it might not work here.