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metro
10-24-2008, 07:50 AM
Quail Springs Mall owner struggling with debt
Journal Record
October 22nd, 2008

Commercial Property News reported today that the frozen credit markets are causing difficulties for Chicago-based REIT General Growth Properties, which is one of Oklahoma’s largest enclosed mall owners. The REIT is trying to deal with $27 billion of debt by soliciting the sale of up to $2 billion in preferred shares to investors. The company is expected to see approximately $2.5 billion of debt that will mature over the next two months, according to the article. You can read the entire article by clicking here.

The most interesting bit of information in the article as it relates to Oklahoma is that General Growth may consider selling some of its more than 200 malls, which includes Quail Springs Mall in Oklahoma City, Sooner Mall in Norman and Washington Park Mall in Bartlesville. The article stated the REIT would either place properties for sale on the open market or sell to joint ventures. While this does put into question the fate of General Growth’s Oklahoma holdings, the good news is that all three of these properties are doing quite well with high occupancies thanks to the strength of the Oklahoma economy. It will be interesting to see if General Growth feels these Oklahoma malls are worth keeping due to their strong performance. However, they might also feel these properties’ high occupancies coupled with the stable local economy might make them more attractive to investors rather than properties that are located in struggling markets with high vacancies.

hipsterdoofus
10-24-2008, 07:51 AM
Maybe they could just get the government to bail them out...

circuitboard
10-24-2008, 09:27 AM
I hope they sale the Mall. Then maybe a new investor will get some good stores to open.

metro
10-24-2008, 11:34 AM
Yeah, sell it to Simon Malls. They did a bang up job with Penn, or actually sell it to one of the Mills companies, that would be a perfect fit for Quail and this city needs one.

Tex
10-24-2008, 11:39 AM
Yeah, sell it to Simon Malls. They did a bang up job with Penn, or actually sell it to one of the Mills companies, that would be a perfect fit for Quail and this city needs one.

That's exactly what I was thinking, selling it to Simon.

jbrown84
10-24-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't think Simon wants two malls in this size market.

GGP is doing fine with Quail, IMO. Just don't sell it to Macerich.

I'm thinking they won't sell it though. Surely out of those 200 malls they have a lot that are in worse shape. They owned Shawnee Mall until 4 or 5 years ago, and it has a lot of vacany and did then as well.

jbrown84
10-24-2008, 12:13 PM
Simon used to own Sooner Mall too I believe.

Also, they own the Mills malls.

hipsterdoofus
10-24-2008, 12:58 PM
Yeah I was just in quail recently and it seemed pretty full...

Architect2010
10-24-2008, 02:23 PM
I still don't see why people say Quail Springs is gonna go soon.That mall doesn't need any upgrades of any sorts, if anything they need touching up on th exterior. Its a great mall and a popular one at that. It has stores that are great that even Penn Square doesn't, i.e. Forever 21 and The Disney Store. It has its share of "cheap-o" stores but Penn Square is not without those either. And to say it needs a remodel is crazy, the inside has finishes almost identical to Penn.

Quail Springs would be the one to go if it was out of it and Penn, but the scenario of it leaving soon is far off. Sorry for the rant, I'm just addressing peeves from another thread.

I hope Simon picks it up! They would turn that mall into a whole other world. It has the potential and the location, size, and status to be the best mall in the state. I'll keep dreamin' though.

jsibelius
10-24-2008, 04:37 PM
Yeah I was just in quail recently and it seemed pretty full...

Lots of people doesn't necessarily equal doing well financially. If you're not managing your books properly, you can be rolling in customers and still be drowning in red ink.

hipsterdoofus
10-24-2008, 06:41 PM
Lots of people doesn't necessarily equal doing well financially. If you're not managing your books properly, you can be rolling in customers and still be drowning in red ink.


I didn't mean full of customers (although that was ok too) but full as far as not a lot of empty retail spaces.

progressiveboy
10-24-2008, 07:38 PM
I hope they sale the Mall. Then maybe a new investor will get some good stores to open.

I think with QS Mall it has "one" of the more dynamic demographics and everyone knows "location, location, location" is a key term used in Real Estate. I personally do not see QS closing or downsizing simply because this part of the city is growing and adding much more affluence and population. Everyone knows where rooftops pop up then retail follows right along with it. I do think that QS needs to offer more appealing stores as the tenant mix is ok but nothing that rises above PSquare. I believe that Simon would be a good buyer for the mall because GGP has done just an average job on it's marketing mix of stores. Some stores that come to mind that would be a welcome edition would be Restoration Hardware, Banana Republic, Steve Madden, Kenneth Cole, Z Gallerie, Crate & Barrell etc..........

jbrown84
10-25-2008, 10:33 AM
I would rather see Simon expand Penn Square to allow for some of the kinds of stores you mention. They are more likely to go into Penn as it is already much more upscale, and Penn has a long waiting list of retailers dying to get into the next open space that fits their needs.

progressiveboy
10-25-2008, 11:07 AM
I would rather see Simon expand Penn Square to allow for some of the kinds of stores you mention. They are more likely to go into Penn as it is already much more upscale, and Penn has a long waiting list of retailers dying to get into the next open space that fits their needs.

The only problem that I have been told is Penn Square is not able to expand because the structure of the entire building would not hold a third level. The only way I see it expanding is if that build northward where currently there is parking spots, however, I do not think the mall wants to give up parking due to PS being a very successful mall and parking is already an issue. I hope your correct in that long waiting list. Recent casualties at PS include Sharper Image and Crabtree and Evelyn. With the economy starting to unravel, it "may perhaps" be a while before anything goes into PS that would be considered upscale, but I may be wrong. In Dallas where I reside, Northpark Mall and the Galleria keep adding very upscale stores, Armani, Versace, Barneys etc..

dismayed
10-25-2008, 11:23 AM
Agree with Hipster and Architect. This mall is in the heart of OKC's modern retail district and it seems to be in fairly good architectural shape. If the mall owner were to go belly up, I think buying this property at a discount nearly fully leased and generating a ton of revenue is a no-brainer.

metro
10-25-2008, 11:38 AM
I think with QS Mall it has "one" of the more dynamic demographics and everyone knows "location, location, location" is a key term used in Real Estate. I personally do not see QS closing or downsizing simply because this part of the city is growing and adding much more affluence and population. Everyone knows where rooftops pop up then retail follows right along with it. I do think that QS needs to offer more appealing stores as the tenant mix is ok but nothing that rises above PSquare. I believe that Simon would be a good buyer for the mall because GGP has done just an average job on it's marketing mix of stores. Some stores that come to mind that would be a welcome edition would be Restoration Hardware, Banana Republic, Steve Madden, Kenneth Cole, Z Gallerie, Crate & Barrell etc..........

I agree on those stores, however Penn has had Banana Republic for years.

metro
10-25-2008, 11:40 AM
The only problem that I have been told is Penn Square is not able to expand because the structure of the entire building would not hold a third level. The only way I see it expanding is if that build northward where currently there is parking spots, however, I do not think the mall wants to give up parking due to PS being a very successful mall and parking is already an issue. I hope your correct in that long waiting list. Recent casualties at PS include Sharper Image and Crabtree and Evelyn. With the economy starting to unravel, it "may perhaps" be a while before anything goes into PS that would be considered upscale, but I may be wrong. In Dallas where I reside, Northpark Mall and the Galleria keep adding very upscale stores, Armani, Versace, Barneys etc..

That's because wealth distribution in this country is becoming more and more prevalent and is killing the middle class. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Especially with a weak economy and rapid inflation. The upper middle class are becoming richer (therefore can afford the Armani, Versace, etc.), while the avg. joe middleclass is more cautious with his money and might not be shopping at Sharper Image or Crabtree and Evelyn anymore.

dismayed
10-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Sharper Image filed Chapter 11 earlier this year. Their pullout had nothing to do with Oklahoma City or the economy... it had to do with their horrible management and inability to sell 100% marked-up products in a post-Internet world.

Crabtree and Evelyn is a private company so it is hard to say what is going on with them. But looking at their product line-up online it seems to me like their product is really not that upscale. You can find similar stuff at Target.

jbrown84
10-25-2008, 01:09 PM
The only problem that I have been told is Penn Square is not able to expand because the structure of the entire building would not hold a third level.

I didn't say anything about a third level. The mall could easily be expanded on the north or south side and the parking loss could easily be made up with garages.

progressiveboy
10-25-2008, 01:31 PM
I didn't say anything about a third level. The mall could easily be expanded on the north or south side and the parking loss could easily be made up with garages. That's fairly unlikely to happen due to the space and parking issues. I wonder if the parking structure can be added on to? I realize you did not say anything about a third level, so lighten up and have a great day!! OK??

jsibelius
10-25-2008, 03:40 PM
I didn't mean full of customers (although that was ok too) but full as far as not a lot of empty retail spaces.

Thanks for clarifying. Even so, my point still stands. If you're not managing your income properly, you can be rolling in money and still be drowning in red ink.

hipsterdoofus
10-25-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm glad that Penn Square is doing ok, but I'll never go there if I can avoid it...the parking in that place is terrible and the same getting to it, in my opinion...I had an incident near Christmas time once where I had to leave the lot before I went road rage...

jbrown84
10-25-2008, 08:35 PM
That's fairly unlikely to happen due to the space and parking issues. I wonder if the parking structure can be added on to?

There's huge amounts of surface parking there. Plenty of room for more garages and an expanded mall. It would actually make the parking more convenient because everyone would be on average closer to the mall from their parking spot.

Patrick
10-26-2008, 02:06 PM
Simon is planning on adding 2 levels to the existing parking structure in the next 3-5 years.

I'm good friends with Bob Landdeck, the mall manager, and he tells me that the mall has a long waiting list of tenants. It's all a matter of finding the right space for the tenant. Many tenants have certain preferences and space requirements. For example, Forever 21 is on the waiting list, but Penn currently doesn't have a large enough space to accomodate their needs.

In regards to Sharper Image closing, that had to do with their bankruptcy. Had nothing to do with Penn Square. Crabtree and Evelyn also is not doing well financially.

Penn has the highest sales per square foot of any mall in the region.

progressiveboy
10-26-2008, 03:51 PM
Simon is planning on adding 2 levels to the existing parking structure in the next 3-5 years.

I'm good friends with Bob Landdeck, the mall manager, and he tells me that the mall has a long waiting list of tenants. It's all a matter of finding the right space for the tenant. Many tenants have certain preferences and space requirements. For example, Forever 21 is on the waiting list, but Penn currently doesn't have a large enough space to accomodate their needs.

In regards to Sharper Image closing, that had to do with their bankruptcy. Had nothing to do with Penn Square. Crabtree and Evelyn also is not doing well financially.

Penn has the highest sales per square foot of any mall in the region.
Thanks for the information. Did your friend mention what other tenants are on the waiting list?

metro
10-27-2008, 08:54 AM
progressiveboy, FYI...Nichols Hills also has a Dior and another very upscale score which name currently escapes me.

Patrick
10-27-2008, 02:18 PM
Thanks for the information. Did your friend mention what other tenants are on the waiting list?

I can't go into complete details, but Fossil and Steve Madden are on the list. That's really all I can disclose for now.

OKCTalker
11-20-2008, 02:15 PM
General Growth hires bankruptcy law firm

By John Spence, MarketWatch
Last update: 3:59 p.m. EST Nov. 20, 2008

BOSTON (MarketWatch) -- Troubled mall developer General Growth Properties Inc. has hired a law firm as bankruptcy counsel as it tries to restructure its debt and avoid a bankruptcy filing, according to a published report Thursday.

General Growth has lined up law firm Sidly Austin but that doesn't necessarily mean a bankruptcy filing is imminent, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Shares of the real estate investment trust have lost more than 99% this year and closed Wednesday at 40 cents.

The company has $900 million of mortgages due next week on properties it owns in Las Vegas, and the company has asked for an extension, the Journal reported. Wall Street analysts say the company is close to violating certain covenants of its bonds, and General Growth's scheduled debt payments rise in coming years, according to the report.

Chicago-based General Growth, which was dropped from the S&P 500 Index, has warned it could seek bankruptcy protection if it is unable to roll over its debt.

The Journal reported the company is in talks with banks including Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs (GS) and Wachovia Corp. to extend the deadline on the $900 million due on Nov. 28, and is also trying to sell a trio of luxury malls in Las Vegas.

Goldman Sachs is overseeing the company's financial restructuring and leading efforts to sell the malls, and General Growth's other advisers are Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank, according to the article. The paper said if the mall giant files for bankruptcy, it would be the biggest real estate failure in recent memory.

REIT shares have been under pressure with many expecting commercial real estate to take a hit as the economy slows. There are also concerns about the companies' debt loads with capital markets essentially locked down. The market for commercial mortgage-backed securities has tumbled this week.

"The most notable equity REIT implosion this year, of large-cap mall REIT General Growth Properties, has dragged down REITs across the board, instilling liquidity fears in investors," wrote Stifel Nicolaus & Co. analysts in a recent research note.

An exchange-traded fund following the sector, SPDR Dow Jones REIT ETF, is down 57% year to date and is trailing the S&P 500 by more than 13 percentage points.

"Virtually all of the year-to-date REIT sector losses have accumulated in October and November," the Stifel Nicolaus analysts observed. "REITs are the most volatile publicly traded equity sector, routinely putting up total daily returns equal to what the sector should logically do in an entire year."

Shares of retail and industrial REITs have been particularly weak as investors brace for a slowdown in consumer spending.

seamless
11-27-2008, 10:05 PM
I must say i enjoy going to the mall good place to people watch and i adore the foodcourt best place to eat alone if you ask me.. Quail springs is markedly less busy than its counterpart penn square in my personal opinion.. Location is overrated trust me im a former business owner with a hand in the till if not the pulse of the far northwest corridor of OKC and i must tell you it is a demographic lie.. just look at how many places have closed out there in recent memory. Dont wanna get to weird here but its what i like to think of as the new America lots of younger couples just starting out with two degrees, two nice cars, two nice kids, two decent jobs maybe, and not a drop of discretinary disposable income between um.. outside of the holdiays your lucky on a weeknight if you ever see even the main parking lots up front more than a half full.. where as penn square any given night can be pretty wall trafficked. the commercial property out that was is overvalued significantly over half the large companies between may and portland on memorial i.e. Dobson, AT&t, numerous other smaller ones have over the past 4 to 5 years have either straight laid off people or moved or gone through serious restructuring efforts...

lil0kie
12-02-2008, 07:48 AM
Penn Square is land locked. I've worked in the mall for over 15 yrs. Simon amazed everyone by letting 2 restaurants come in to already tight parking lot. Lot of employees thought they would build a 2nd parking garage before adding any new buildings. They recently took out a multi million dollar center court fountain from an earlier remodel. I think malls will become a thing of the past. Most of them are asking way too much for spaces. I agree with others, I doubt Simon will buy or want Quail Springs mall. I've been told that there only about 3 or 4 companies that own all the USA malls. Sad. Wish a local investment group would buy some of the local malls.

CuatrodeMayo
12-03-2008, 04:10 PM
I must say i enjoy going to the mall good place to people watch and i adore the foodcourt best place to eat alone if you ask me.. Quail springs is markedly less busy than its counterpart penn square in my personal opinion.. Location is overrated trust me im a former business owner with a hand in the till if not the pulse of the far northwest corridor of OKC and i must tell you it is a demographic lie.. just look at how many places have closed out there in recent memory. Dont wanna get to weird here but its what i like to think of as the new America lots of younger couples just starting out with two degrees, two nice cars, two nice kids, two decent jobs maybe, and not a drop of discretinary disposable income between um.. outside of the holdiays your lucky on a weeknight if you ever see even the main parking lots up front more than a half full.. where as penn square any given night can be pretty wall trafficked. the commercial property out that was is overvalued significantly over half the large companies between may and portland on memorial i.e. Dobson, AT&t, numerous other smaller ones have over the past 4 to 5 years have either straight laid off people or moved or gone through serious restructuring efforts...

Your screen name makes alot of sense now.

jbrown84
12-03-2008, 04:21 PM
Indoor malls will not go away completely, at least not in cold climates.

For any kind of extended shopping experience (going to 2+ stores), I would much rather park and go inside an indoor mall with a much more aesthetically pleasing set up than go to any strip mall with a desolate parking lot out front and no one using the sidewalks.

sgray
12-03-2008, 05:56 PM
I am right by Penn Square and just when I think I've seen people around here sell everyone on their last load of crazy, they drop another restaurant right into the middle of an already crowded parking lot! I could understand if that was just open grass land with 'develop' written all over it, or if the lot never filled up.

I know I keep telling myself I've seen it all, but around here I'm still waiting for the big one--when business owners start closing up shop when business gets good--makes perfect sense, you know? Follows the same crazy logic.

Dee Dee Dee!

gmwise
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
Ok, its not often but I agree with jbrown, not all malls will disappear.
But look at how some need a updated coat of paint.
The lack of concern by ownership says it all.

Urbanized
12-03-2008, 06:28 PM
I've always thought that Penn could put structured parking in the lot area that is bounded by the intersection of Penn and NW Expressway. That portion of the surface parking is so tight that it doesn't work very well as surface.

Realign the traffic pattern in the new garage, and you could buy a lot more driving convenience, and a few stories of parking could buy hundreds of new spaces. The mall would be bookended on the NE and SW corners by garage, so structured parking would be convenient to all points in the mall. Sure, there would be a garage between the main streets and the mall structure itself, but that isn't unheard of. The Galleria in Dallas does this.

If you increased the structured parking along the footprints of the existing surface, you could expand the mall itself north. Heck, one wing in the north lot from the Macy's/Men's Wearhouse area, running west toward Cheescake factory, and in front of BC Clark, would increase the size of the mall substantially. I think your lost parking would be replaced, and then some, by the structured parking proposed above.

jbrown84
12-03-2008, 08:40 PM
I think the best plan would be to expand on the north as you suggest, with a garage attached to the north side of that.

The problem with a garage on the SW corner is that there is no way for it to attach to the building except going directly into Dillards and I don't think they would want that setup. Plus I think they would prefer to keep the visibility on that corner.

sgray
12-04-2008, 05:05 AM
All of this common-sense thinking would be too much for the mall owners to comprehend.

metro
12-04-2008, 07:53 AM
I think the best plan would be to expand on the north as you suggest, with a garage attached to the north side of that.

The problem with a garage on the SW corner is that there is no way for it to attach to the building except going directly into Dillards and I don't think they would want that setup. Plus I think they would prefer to keep the visibility on that corner.

Dillards WOULD want that setup, the mall management and other tenants probabably would not. By default, it would give Dillards more business just by sheer foot traffic patterns. One only has too look 3 hrs south to the Galleria in Dallas to figure that out.

metro
12-04-2008, 07:54 AM
All of this common-sense thinking would be too much for the mall owners to comprehend.

I wouldn't say that, Simon runs a good mall (reason it's #1 in state and one of the highest in the entire region). Simon Properties are some of the best malls in the nation, and their tenants reflect that. If anything, they probably have all this in long term plans, but considering the economy, a slowing retail sector for quite some time now (over 1 year), and national trends of outdoor lifestyle centers, they are probably being more cautious.

betts
12-04-2008, 09:59 AM
progressiveboy, FYI...Nichols Hills also has a Dior and another very upscale score which name currently escapes me.

Chanel.

sgray
12-04-2008, 12:12 PM
I dont doubt that there are malls that are designed somewhat well...I have seen some decent ones myself. There are areas where things are built much better and show signs of creativity and intelligence in the finished product. Fact is most of them are not in OK. Concerning the long-term plans, most of the malls we have have been here for quite a long time and in cases such as penn square, not much of anything has changed, even when the ownership changes. Not much changed when the economy and business was great...no long-term stuff happened then, so I don't expect to see much of anything other than quick, cheap short-term money-makers like the restaurant in the parking lot.

metro
12-04-2008, 01:45 PM
I dont doubt that there are malls that are designed somewhat well...I have seen some decent ones myself. There are areas where things are built much better and show signs of creativity and intelligence in the finished product. Fact is most of them are not in OK. Concerning the long-term plans, most of the malls we have have been here for quite a long time and in cases such as penn square, not much of anything has changed, even when the ownership changes. Not much changed when the economy and business was great...no long-term stuff happened then, so I don't expect to see much of anything other than quick, cheap short-term money-makers like the restaurant in the parking lot.

Penn Square? Not much change? Their tenants have changed DRAMATICALLY, they are the only mall in the metro that have luxury and higher end retailers with a waiting list of others years long because their isn't enough space. Density (in your reference to Cheesecake Factory and Elephant Bar) isn't a bad thing. We need more density in this city to see the types of development you are describing. You should know developers and retailers are BIG on density statistics.

jbrown84
12-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Not much changed?

Simon did an extensive interior remodel that made the mall much more attractive to upscale retailers. They have plans to add several levels to the current parking garage. They added two very popular, exclusive restaurants and another that's exclusive if not quite as popular. They added Jos. A Bank, White House Black Market, Coldwater Creek, Apple Store, Coach, J. Jill, Sephora, Strahovski, Aldo, Pottery Barn Kids, Aspen, and quickly found a solution to Ward's departure.

They also require stores to remodel or build in a new space every five to seven years or so (not sure exactly). This has led to almost every store in a different or remodeled space since 15 years ago or so.

bluedogok
12-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Simon recently renovated Barton Creek Mall down here and Lakeline Mall in Northwest Austin, they are very aggressive in making their product current and marketable. They also control most of the malls here in the Austin area, 11 in all. The only one that they don't seem to control is the new Hill Country Galleria mixed use city center. It is "truly" a "city center" because it has the Village of Bee Cave City Hall and Public Library on the site.

I have some gripes about Simon, but it isn't with how they manage retail, it is how they manage the commercial office space like it's a mall. They should have a commercial property manager managing that and stay with their expertise. Our offices are in The Domain and they seem clueless most of the time when it comes to the commercial side, I have no idea how they handle the residential component.

I think there will always be a place for the enclosed mall, but I think they will evolve into regional centers and some will close much like Shepherd Mall, Crossroads and Heritage Park. The "lifestyle centers" will be what is built along with the "big box malls" that are popping up everywhere.

Urbanized
12-04-2008, 06:22 PM
Penn Square is one of the most heavily changed malls in the region over the past 25 years or so. Not just as far as finishes go; much of the mall was actually OUTSIDE until the remodel in the '80s.

Regarding building a new parking structure between the mall and the NW Expressway/Penn intersection: you can see an example of the way a parking structure is nestled like this by clicking here (http://www.oscarmail.net/dfwfreeways/aerial/dnt_addison/17a_dnt_looking_s_at_alpha_2005-04-11_900.jpg). I guarantee you that Nordstrom has FAR more people enter from the garage side than the side that faces the camera. The added benefit is that there is a bit of a buffer between traffic and the structure itself. Most of the traffic is happening in the garage, which has easy in/out. That leaves the road between the two structures a little less congested, without people crawling by, insisting on finding the spot closest to the building.

Regarding visibility from the street: that's an easy fix. Accessory signage on the exterior (streetside) of the garage itself. The sign actually ends up being closer to the street, and MORE visible to passersby.

The space I'm talking about at Penn functions so poorly as a surface lot currently. I think it would work far better with a thoughtfully planned garage on that footprint, and would create the added benefit of freeing up other surface parking space for mall expansion.

sgray
12-04-2008, 09:43 PM
Yes, the penn square lot has gotten worse since the addition of the restaurants. It's not that the restaurants are the problem--but that the lot was already crowded before they took away spaces, further compounding the problem. Most everything there looks and functions like a last-minute addition. I live right next to Penn Square Mall and have shopped there nearly every week or so for more than 20 years, until recently. I see the difference when I visit other malls outside of OK. They are different--well thought out and laid out much better. Just recently got to visit a mall near Gulfport, MS where my friend lives. And they are much smaller of a community than we are, but the mall was 10 times as nice! Right when you drive up to it and walk inside, everything seems like it was planned right. The thing is about the same size as Penn Square, but the ceiling inside is lower.

The parking at Penn Square was bad enough on regular days, but now with the removal of spaces, I dont even try to visit on or near the holidays like I used to. I do drive by occasionally on busy days and congested is certainly an understatement for what I see. When I was younger, I was a more frequent visitor to Quail Springs as I lived closer to it then.

I think the main point here is that it doesn't matter if you have the best stores in existence inside--if the place is not designed to handle the flow of shoppers efficiently and comfortably then it's kind of like, what's the point?


I am in agreement with some that suggest that malls as we know them way very well start to disappear. With all the strip malls popping up all over the place, seems like folks are finding much of what they need there.

Urbanized
12-05-2008, 02:51 PM
Penn, specifically, definitely seems to avoiding much of the anti-mall movement that is sweeping through retail nationwide. That doesn't mean that it won't happen to them, so they definitely need to stay sharp. But malls are dying all over the country, and Penn seems to keep thriving. I think it has a lot to do with location. Surely it does, in fact.

I read something recently - I don't remember the source, so pardon the ambiguity - that stated 2009 (I think, though it may have actually been 2008) would be the first year in a few decade with not a single traditional mall completed the entire calender year. This means there were no malls under construction anywhere in the U.S. that would be completed within that calender year. That is pretty incredible, if you think about it. Traditional malls are definitely in a deep slumber, if not dead, as new development.

jbrown84
12-05-2008, 05:53 PM
I think the main point here is that it doesn't matter if you have the best stores in existence inside--if the place is not designed to handle the flow of shoppers efficiently and comfortably then it's kind of like, what's the point?


Other than the parking, what are you referring to?

sgray
12-05-2008, 06:19 PM
That's my main point, jbrown. Just what I said. If you can't go there and get in the door, then what does it matter what's inside? Metro mentions density and that's a great idea--the only problem is that around here they don't take into consideration that really the only way to get there is by car (setting aside hours of dealing with a bus or long bike rides/walks as an option) so they just start taking away spaces in an already over-crowded lot that was not even designed right to begin with. Automobile parking is the critical point between the customer and the businesses that operate there. And they slap it on the back burner like it plays no part in the success of their business.

You know, someone mentioned a better designed parking garage and, to me, that coupled with the restaurants in the parking lot would balance out the whole density issue. They just don't think that way here...they're just out for that one extra quick buck, and in the long run they would be more profitable if they weren't so focused on that quick short-term buck and look at why other areas build the way they do.

But it is what it is and I think, at least around here, that folks are flocking to the strip malls because they can get in and out and not have to fight the malls issues.

jbrown84
12-05-2008, 06:54 PM
Well, as I said, they will be expanding the garage by at least 2 levels in the coming months. I suppose it could be delayed due to the economy, but they do have a plan. They aren't ignoring the problem.

The fact remains that at least half their stores are metro exclusive, so if people want to shop at those stores, they WILL go to Penn Square.

sgray
12-05-2008, 07:26 PM
I really dont think that most people care whether they have exclusive anything...in fact, if they take the approach you mention (that people WILL have to go there) then it could very well bring their existence to a close even sooner. Obviously, you don't win customers by forcing them in to your store--there's always a competitor that will sell the customer what they need and make the experience better. It's also like fighting gravity--why why why fight things the hard way? You can invest a little capital in making your place of business a place people WANT to go shop and earn a loyal customer base and profit more in the long run. That mall I mentioned down south on the coast--I was just there last week--it works great! Easy to get in and out of. And they're always packed, but they planned for that, so you don't notice as much. And it is as big, if not bigger than penn square.

I was just over at Penn the other day and can confirm that no construction is happening at the moment. You mentioned the two additional stories to the existing parking garage. That even furthers my point. Any sane person could understand that at some point, the traffic within the garage is going to get congested as well, because the exits and entrances for the garage are still gonna be limited to the same capacity. Again, why keep fighting gravity??? Gravity is our friend and we must learn to live with it because we cannot overcome it. One person suggested a re-design of the existing parking lot (which is surface only) and make it as efficient as possible. Whether it's building more easily accessible and balanced garages or whatever the result may be, I LIKE THAT IDEA...it contains logic and would involve analysis of the traffic and shape the final product to the load, making the place more customer-friendly. Spread the load--load balance--whatever you want to call it. Quit piling up a bunch of afterthoughts and build something right, that works.

It's sort of off-topic, but a relevant point. Look at what the city just did at that intersection in front of Bell Isle, next to Penn Square. The off-ramp from I-44 to NW EXPWY was poorly designed and so instead of fixing it or learning from the mistake, they block off the right lane, so traffic (like me) coming from the east can't turn right. What the heck is up with that? I have a right to access that lane, but because the city is so hardheaded...geez. :smile: That's the mentality that I'm talking about...and it exists just the same in that Penn Square Mall.

I'll say it again, you're not gonna strongarm customers into that place. That's fightin gravity bro, and it aint gonna fly. People can get their stuff from other retailers or on the internet. If you want the business, invest in your customers.

jbrown84
12-05-2008, 09:46 PM
I never said anything about strongarming. I'm not speaking for Penn Square management. I highly doubt that their philosophy is that they can rest on their laurels because they have the exclusive stores. They didn't get where they are by resting on laurels or we would still have those nice pastels and faux-victorian architecture inside.

I shop there often and don't find it to be any more of a hassle than any other mall I've ever been to. I really don't understand your intense disdain.

Obviously they are going to do what they need to. How do you know the garage expansion won't include new entrances? All these things can and will be addressed.

sgray
12-06-2008, 07:07 AM
Well, more or less you did because you said that IF folks want to buy from those certain stores they WILL go to penn, suggesting that they will either go their or not get what they want. My response said that no one is going to be forced into doing that and they will get what they want regardless if penn is there or not.

Unless you do a lot of visiting to malls outside of this area, it's harder to see the difference. You wont see the difference just from visiting Penn or Quail, etc...

How do I know the garage wont have more entrances? Well, for starters, they would have to build them in the sky because they have used up all the room they have in that packed back corner at the surface level. Also notice that the road connecting those entrances is out of room...and for entrances and exits...they have used up all the room they have there already. You can only cram so much into a given area. They need to re-work their parking and accessibility to the facility altogether.

On your last comment, they will do what they WANT to do, whatever they feel is appropriate. That doesn't mean it will be right or more helpful. They can and may address these issues, but to what extent remains to be seen.

I can only draw conclusions from what they have done, not from whats planned. I can only judge them based on their actions or inactions to-date. When we, as the customer see restaurants popping up in their parking lot almost overnight (which was planned) but the parking and accessibility issues have existed for years and nothing has been done to-date, we can easily see where their priorities lie.

bluedogok
12-06-2008, 12:16 PM
I never had much of problem parking when I went there, I usually parked on the north side of Foley's and never had trouble finding a parking place, if you try to park by Dillard's then it is going to be more crowded because it is the first visible parking. Of course, I avoided going at the real busy shopping times as I pretty much try to when I go shopping anywhere just like I don't go to Home Depot/Lowe's on a Saturday morning. There are also "brand" shoppers who will go to Penn Square because it is the only location where the "brand" they are seeking is sold. You are right about non-brand shoppers eventually going somewhere else if it is more difficult than they perceive it should be because they aren't lured by a brand.

Part of the issue with Penn Square is that it was originally built in the 60's as a much smaller mall, if you look at most malls built during that period and later expanded (like Northpark in Dallas) they all have site constraints and less than optimal traffic flow you also have people that seem to forget about the exit to Penn in the far north parking lot. It could definitely use more capacity and better flow for those times like Thanksgiving weekend.

jbrown84
12-06-2008, 01:02 PM
There are also "brand" shoppers who will go to Penn Square because it is the only location where the "brand" they are seeking is sold.

That's exactly what I am saying. That's what most of the stores are and they are moving towards that even more, like Northpark. Obviously, sgray is not a "brand" shopper, but the fact that that parking lot is packed on a weekend and overflowing during the holiday season shows that the mall has no problem luring shoppers, despite what traffic flow and parking issues it has.

As far as the current parking garage goes, don't forget that the entire north side is exposed. On top of adding floors, the footprint of the garage could be doubled to the north.

sgray
12-06-2008, 01:58 PM
Do you think that if these strip malls keep growing that those "brand" stores will stay and suffer business? Don't think so. If it comes down to it, they are likely to go where the business is. And these "brand" shoppers. Who is to say they will continue to be "brand-specific" shoppers or purchase from the company using alternate means, like the internet?

The other part of your post, jbrown, is interesting because you seem to think that as long as 'some' people get into the place, that that means everything is okay. Why would any good businessman purposely limit the amount of customers going through their store? I think that if the malls dont start addressing this that you'll start to more more of these "brand" stores, that are only in the malls, start to move out closer to the customers...leaving the owners with an empty building. We will see how the mall owners respond...

Jbrown, you mention the north end of the garage...dude, the entire garage is tucked into that corner and the road that wraps the garage is as wide as it can be. You can only have so much traffic wrapping the back of that building at once--not to mention that there is only so much moving traffic at once that can be happening in that garage at once. They should look at balancing the load. Bluedogok mentions the far north exit/entrance and I think it's a great idea to spread the load between the various inlets/outlets. They should consider another garage or something that doesn't keep loading up the existing road back there.

jbrown84
12-06-2008, 02:39 PM
Do you think that if these strip malls keep growing that those "brand" stores will stay and suffer business?

Business isn't suffering!! That's the point. And you are not going to see Sephora, Strahovski, Bachrach, etc locating in your crappy strip malls next to Payless and Supercuts.


I think that if the malls dont start addressing this that you'll start to more more of these "brand" stores, that are only in the malls, start to move out closer to the customers...leaving the owners with an empty building.

These shoppers live a mile north in Nichols Hills. What is this about moving "out"? Maybe you live in the cookie cutter suburbs, but plenty of people do not.

Every shopping center has parking limitations. Your acting as if Penn Square has only 200 spots for a regional mall or something. There are plenty of spaces and I hardly think anyone is leaving and going elsewhere because there is nowhere to park. Maybe in an extreme situation like a Saturday afternoon in December.


Jbrown, you mention the north end of the garage...dude, the entire garage is tucked into that corner and the road that wraps the garage is as wide as it can be. You can only have so much traffic wrapping the back of that building at once--not to mention that there is only so much moving traffic at once that can be happening in that garage at once. They should look at balancing the load. Bluedogok mentions the far north exit/entrance and I think it's a great idea to spread the load between the various inlets/outlets. They should consider another garage or something that doesn't keep loading up the existing road back there.

The existing garage does not go all the way to the far north end of the lot. It is even with the north side of Macy's. If they extended it to the far end, that would actually direct traffic to the far NW exit that bluedog mentioned.

Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=35.525652,-97.544239&spn=0.004095,0.006866&t=h&z=17&msid=114564274036136809344.00045d6798117e4468753)

They also really need to make a bridge over the ditch to Belle Isle Station, but that's more complicated as it's probably city or state easment.

sgray
12-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Business isn't suffering!! That's the point. And you are not going to see Sephora, Strahovski, Bachrach, etc locating in your crappy strip malls next to Payless and Supercuts.

These shoppers live a mile north in Nichols Hills. What is this about moving "out"? Maybe you live in the cookie cutter suburbs, but plenty of people do not.


1) I didn't say "business is suffering"! (please read what I post so that I don't have to re-clarify) I said do you think they will suffer business because of the limitations of the facility? And that is a very valid point. For example, if 95% of the parking lot were hogged by folks visiting other stores due to some sale or any other reason, then they WOULD suffer some business! Right now, there's not enough parking to get the stores half full. Quail has a more balanced parking and system of accessibility than Penn!

2) The stores that you mention are gonna do what is best for their business. Unlike the mall owner who isn't a direct retailer, their success depends on their customers.

3) I think a lot of folks would take issue to your general reference to strip malls as "Crappy". Sure, there are some that are, but they are becoming less and less due to the building of all these new, nicer-looking ones.

4) Again, if you were reading my posts you would have seen where I clearly stated that I live right across the street from Penn Square Mall. I even made it an issue because I was going to Penn Square every week! How do you figure I live in the cookie-cutter suburbs when I clearly stated I live across the street???

5) How do you figure that all these shoppers are from Nichols Hills. Homes in Nichols Hills are mostly big and spread out in most parts. There's less homes in Nichols Hills than a square mile in some parts of the city.



Every shopping center has parking limitations. Your acting as if Penn Square has only 200 spots for a regional mall or something. There are plenty of spaces and I hardly think anyone is leaving and going elsewhere because there is nowhere to park. Maybe in an extreme situation like a Saturday afternoon in December.


Around here, yes. Other places, not like here. Everything has limitations, but here the issue is beyond stupid. Just out of curiosity, why don't you watch the lot on a halfway busy day. I see folks drive through and leave just in my walk to the building. Prior to this post, I've listened to other folks besides me complain about the issues there. You may not want to believe that folks are going elsewhere, but who do you think are visiting the other stand-alone stores and strip malls? Hmm...



The existing garage does not go all the way to the far north end of the lot. It is even with the north side of Macy's. If they extended it to the far end, that would actually direct traffic to the far NW exit that bluedog mentioned.


Again, you are not listening to what I am saying. There is a bottleneck with regard to the fact that traffic is already using that part of the lot for entry and exit to the existing garage and to cut across to the intersection on the SE corner. Why are you so against the thought of balancing the load? Are you a shareholder of Penn Square??? I don't usually hear folks so against ideas unless they are owner or part-owner.

OKC PATROL
12-06-2008, 03:51 PM
On a lighter note....I hope Penn will eventually get a Neimans. This would compliment BC Clarks and Mr. Ooleys, which IMO are some of the elite stores in the state and maybe SW considering the history of BC and the high quality of clothing that Mr. Ooleys offers.

jbrown84
12-06-2008, 04:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, why don't you watch the lot on a halfway busy day.

Did you look at the googlemap that I linked to? The lot is far from full on that typical day.


You may not want to believe that folks are going elsewhere, but who do you think are visiting the other stand-alone stores and strip malls? Hmm...

The stand alone strip malls do not have any of the stores that Penn has, so the people going there are the ones that want to go to those other stores.



Why are you so against the thought of balancing the load? Are you a shareholder of Penn Square??? I don't usually hear folks so against ideas unless they are owner or part-owner.

I'm not against ideas. I have listed several.