View Full Version : Guessing Game



Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 08:23 AM
As I work on changing my blog's template to include newer features which are not available in my existing template, I've put up sort of a guessing game from some 1903 Chamber of Commerce photos while that template update is being worked on, for those interested.

For example, #1 is:

# 1 - Where was this 1903 panorama taken from?
Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010s.jpg

I've thrown in a couple of 1903 ads from the 1903 COC book, just for fun!

#7 & 8 -- Advertisements
The book contained advertisements for local shops, including the frisky Southern Club, not shown here. But here are a pair I thought you might enjoy.

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_141.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_141s.jpg

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_149.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_149s.jpg

Since the frisky Southern Club was also featured in the 1903 book as a valued member of the Chamber, that fact, combined with the above ad for bathroom fixtures, my thought is that those facts provide an interesting perspective as to what was "OK" in 1903.

See Doug Dawgz Blog: Trouble Note and Guessing Game (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/09/trouble-note-and-guessing-game.html) for a few more.

Martin
09-02-2008, 09:27 AM
my guess on #1 is the tower from okc's first fire station.

i'd have to say #2 is delmar gardens.

...not certain on the rest.


btw... while i was looking throught that album, i saw this image (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/?action=view&current=28_notes_coc.jpg) and unless i'm just confusing myself, i don't think your placement of i-35 (in the upper left) is correct.

-M

Kerry
09-02-2008, 09:33 AM
For some reason I have a desire to purchase bathroom fixtures.

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 11:38 AM
my guess on #1 is the tower from okc's first fire station.

i'd have to say #2 is delmar gardens.

...not certain on the rest.


btw... while i was looking throught that album, i saw this image (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/?action=view&current=28_notes_coc.jpg) and unless i'm just confusing myself, i don't think your placement of i-35 (in the upper left) is correct.

-M
Thanks, 3M! But keep guessing, M! Wrong on both counts (although I'll do some redundant checking on #2 to be sure)!

ON EDIT: You may be correct about #2, MMM. The COC photo does identify the "name" of the park (it's not Delmar) and that's what I'm trying to pin down. I could say the "name" but that would give away the answer if one knew for sure where the park bearing that "name" was located! That said, you may be correct.

Thanks for the comment about the COC aerial ... this and other COC photos will be part of an upcoming Trains article (it should have been done by now but I get sidetracked easily). I'll look at it again ... and compare it with other aerials having a similar vantage point of the river if I can find any. What's your take on that particular roadway?

And, Kerry, I understand! In 1903, some bathroom fixture ads must have been something like Playboy today, VERY relatively speaking!

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 12:33 PM
On further study ... MMM GETS #2 CORRECT! In the COC book the photo is shown to be "Colcord Park," and I'd thought that to be in the original fairgrounds area immediately east of the warehouse district. Not so. From Charles F. Colcord's bio here: Pages 37-46 (http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/historical/1908ok_2_6.htm#cfcolcord) which states:


[Colcord is] president of the Colcord Park Corporation, which owns a tract of one hundred and sixty acres in the city devoted to public amusement and recreation, including the baseball park, the race track, Delmar Garden, etc.
From that, it is evident that while Colcord Park may not have been exactly identified with Delmar Garden in 1903, it certainly must have had the Delmar Garden location.

:congrats: to MMM for getting the 1st correct answer!

Oh GAWD the Smell!
09-02-2008, 12:53 PM
1st pic...Oil derrick at the state capitol?

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Nope. The State Capitol Building did not exist in 1903! The photo vantage point was much closer to downtown, and looked to the southeast.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
09-02-2008, 01:00 PM
Well I just meant from that area. But okay. :wink:

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 01:09 PM
Not even close to that area ... try again!

Luke
09-02-2008, 01:16 PM
From St. Anthony?

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Getting closer, but nope.

amaesquire
09-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Plaza Court?

Luke
09-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Plaza Court?

That diagonal road would be obvious, I would think, if it was from Plaza Court.

Martin
09-02-2008, 01:30 PM
on further study ... mmm gets #2 correct!

yes! the architecture looked like that of delmar gardens... and i remembered that it had a track.



thanks for the comment about the coc aerial ... this and other coc photos will be part of an upcoming trains article

ahh... that makes sense now. i wasn't thinking that the point of the map was railways. so... all the purple lines are tracks... i was under the impression that the purple line above the left 'interstate 35' label pointed to where you thought i-35 was in that picture... which obviously isn't the case. but... i understand now. we're on the same page!

did you ever find out where the 'phillips gas plant' was?

-M

Martin
09-02-2008, 01:43 PM
from st. anthony?


getting closer, but nope.

ahhh... seems to fit better in my mind now... i was thinking in terms of being farther south before... obviously there would've been much less city to look at if the picture was looking southeast from a point in the south part of vintage okc.

so we're in the northwest part of 1903 okc looking southeast... i'm going to guess that the wide east/west space running across the middle of the picture is north tenth street. if true, that would put this picture at around north 16th street... so i'm going to say that we're on the roof of the newly built epworth university.

-M

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 07:10 PM
Here's how you're faring so far, guys.

MMM got the hit for #2.

Not shown here but in my blog's comments, Steve got the hit for #3.

None have gotten #s 1, 4, 5 or 6 -- in fact, none have even guessed about #s 4-6.

As to #1, Luke was closest when he said St. Anthony (a similar perspective was said by amaesquire's guess, Plaza Court, but Plaza Court did not then exist). MMM, Epworth is much further NW than the vantage point of this picture.

Here's a major clue for #1: The picture was taken from a building that was destroyed by fire in 1917 but was rebuilt at the same location which later building exists today.

MMM, do you now think that the aerial map you mentioned is correct? If so, I'll abandon further checking. As for the Phillips plant location, no, I've made no "real" progress other than pinning down the location given in a 1/29/1930 Oklahoman article which said that it was in "NW NW SW 32, 11 3" which has to translate to Section 32, TN 3 N, R 3 W of the Indian Meridian. No other legal description combo fits Oklahoma County (the article was not specific about whether the township was north or south, or whether the range was east or west, but nothing else than what I just said "fits").

Here's where that places the plant (using the 1903 plat map with street and RR names superimposed, and adding the OKC Junction rail lines which didn't exist in 1903:

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/vachon/phillipsgasolinelocation.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/vachon/phillipsgasolinelocations.jpg

If the Oklahoman article is correct, then Phillips must have built its own connection tracks to one or both of the Frisco and/or Santa Fe, it seems to me. But, I'm just guessing. I'd like to find something more authoritative to pin it down other than the Oklahoman article.

rondvu
09-02-2008, 07:39 PM
1 From St Joe's catholic church
2 Delmar Gardens
3 3rd and Broadway part of the Sandridge complex was some kind of temple India, I think.
4 St Anthony's hosp
5 The Culberson building
6 Overholser Opera House
7 Frisky's must have been Doug's boyhood clubhouse

Hopefully I got a few right. What is the grand prize for the winner?

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 08:25 PM
1 From St Joe's catholic church
2 Delmar Gardens
3 3rd and Broadway part of the Sandridge complex was some kind of temple India, I think.
4 St Anthony's hosp
5 The Culberson building
6 Overholser Opera House
7 Frisky's must have been Doug's boyhood clubhouse

Hopefully I got a few right. What is the grand prize for the winner?
Whoa! Good job rondvu! Not 100%, but very good:


From St. Joe's ... nope, incorrect
The racetrack, yes, same as Delmar Garden, but MMM beat you to it!
India Temple, yes! But Steve beat you to it in the blog's responses, but you're the 1st to mention it here. This 1902 building, now with a facade on its exterior, is at the SE corner of the Sandridge (formerly Kerr-McGee) campus. From 1913-1917, it served as the temporary quarters for the Oklahoma Legislature until the State Capitol Building was done. Sandridge hasn't yet said what it will do with this very historic Oklahoma City building.
St. Anthony's is CORRECT! You're the 1st! This was the 1st "permanent" St. Anthony's hospital, at the same location as today. This structure was built in 1899 at 1000 N. Lee, then outside Oklahoma City's limits.
Culbertson Building is CORRECT! You're the 1st! This 1902 building sat on the Broadway "jog" at Grand (now Sheridan), later with the Phillips 66 sign on its top, and many early day photos were taken from its top looking north on Broadway.
Overholser Opera House is CORRECT and you're the 1st. Later, this building became the Orpheum, and, last, the Warner, OKC's 1st Cinerama theater. In the later days, a Beverly's Chicken-in-the-Rough was immediately east of it, next to which was the Colcord Building.
Frisky's falls into Doug Dawgz Wish List category, so, though it wasn't offered as a "guess," since you read my thoughts so well, YOU ARE CORRECT and get BONUS POINTS!

The grand prize winner gets to take a bath with #8, if you can find her (but keeping in mind that she'd now be 105 years old, plus the years of her age before the 1903 drawing was made ... unless you can pull off a Somewhere In Time exercise)! :dizzy:

All that remains is that illusive #1 ... WHO WILL CRACK #1?

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 08:46 PM
Another clue as to #1 ... look closely at the larger image ...

Larger image: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010s.jpg

... and you should be able to see east/west rail lines running through downtown.

Does that help?

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 10:18 PM
I'll give these last clues to #1 ... cropped ...

In 1903, the warehouse district's construction of buildings surpassed what was going on in what we think of as "downtown" today. The most significant "downtown" construction was along Broadway. The further west from Broadway you went, the fewer "commercial" buildings there were. More non-residential buildings were to be found east of the Santa Fe tracks, in the warehouse district, than there were west of Broadway. While that would quickly change, the #1 COC photo presents what was true in 1903 (or when that photo was taken, perhaps in 1902 or 1903) and shows that the area we think of as "downtown" today was largely residential.

Larger view of this crop: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010_crop.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010_crops.jpg

In 1903, an east-west pair of railroad tracks passed along what is known as Couch Drive today, although that "street" did not exist in 1903. The next image is the same as the above, except that the location of today's Couch Drive is shown ...

Larger view of this crop: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010_crop2.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/chamberofcommerce/coc_1903_010_crop2s.jpg

If these clues don't cut it, perhaps you should just go back to school (no disrespect intended).

jstanthrnme
09-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Courthouse??

Doug Loudenback
09-02-2008, 10:44 PM
Courthouse??
Nope ... your going in the wrong direction. Go north along Walker to get warm, and maybe HOT (another clue).

bornhere
09-02-2008, 11:05 PM
Emerson School? (Although I don't know what that would have to do with being hot)

Martin
09-03-2008, 06:15 AM
mmm, do you now think that the aerial map you mentioned is correct?i think so... i initially thought you were trying to place i-35 where the at & sf runs... that was the only real issue i had. i threw this map (http://www.magnvs.de/pics/okcmap-vintagei40i35.jpg) together when i was trying to figure it out for myself. now that i'm reading your map correctly, it looks to me as if we're on the same page.

as for the phillips plant, you've really piqued my curiosity. i simply can't believe that there were rail tracks running anywhere near sw 82nd & penn... it just doesn't appeal to common sense. besides, i'd think that there'd have to be some evidence remaining... something that big doesn't just disappear.

i'd like to read the articles for myself, but i need to renew my library card as it magically expired a few months ago. in the meantime, i bought a 1983 book on phillips corporate history that came in yesterday... it might shed some light on the matter.

my current hypothesis is that maybe the 'gasoline plant' was a separate thing from the rail yard shown in the pictures... initially, i supposed that a 'gasoline plant' was synonymous for a 'gasoline refinery' but i'm finding that the term could be used for a 'natural gasoline' plant... which is a much smaller operation. it's possible that such a plant could have existed in sw okc and the product from that plant was piped to the closest rail yard. one of your pictures is of a shiny silver tank with 'phillips 66' emblazoned on its side... that looks like it could be a high pressure tank for natural gas. another potential piece of evidence as to where those rail pics are... there's a 'phillips drive' just west of kelley that used to run all the way to reno... so that's a possible connection. i really want to know where this place was... i'm only bouncing ideas at this point!

-M

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 06:29 AM
Emerson School? (Although I don't know what that would have to do with being hot)
bornhere, YES! #1 is solved! Congratulations! Now, let me see if I can find your prize ... :tiphat:

Didn't you ever play hot & cold ... getting warmer, warmer, getting hot, getting cold?

bornhere
09-03-2008, 06:36 AM
Yeah... I just thought 'hot' might be a play on words referring to an old fire station or something. It was the 'go back to school' clue that tipped me off. Plus the picture would have to have been taken from an exceptionally tall building for that area in 1903, or else a building on a hill, which Emerson is.

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 06:37 AM
MMM, yes, I believe that it was a natural gas plant. But some of the pics clearly show railroad cars on the premises, so it must have had a rail connection. There must be oil & gas historians around this town, somewhere.

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 06:39 AM
Yeah... I just thought 'hot' might be a play on words referring to an old fire station or something. It was the 'go back to school' clue that tipped me off. Plus the picture would have to have been taken from an exceptionally tall building for that area in 1903, or else a building on a hill, which Emerson is.
My "fear" was that people would think I was just being snotty! Good job!

rondvu
09-03-2008, 06:57 AM
Doug the guessing game was fun. I thought I knew a bit about OKC history but, I have never heard of the gasoline plant, intresting information. You will have to do this again sometime.

Martin
09-03-2008, 07:07 AM
but some of the pics clearly show railroad cars on the premises, so it must have had a rail connection.

true that... i guess what i'm saying is that the 'gas plant' could have been located near sw 82nd and penn and the product from that plant was piped to the closest rail yard for shipping... the pics being taken where the gas is piped for shipment not at the plant itself. without seeing the source material, i'm just shooting in the dark.

-M

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 07:27 AM
Doug the guessing game was fun. I thought I knew a bit about OKC history but, I have never heard of the gasoline plant, intresting information. You will have to do this again sometime.
Yeah, it was fun. I could do one on the Phillips plant, but that wouldn't do unless I knew the answer!

metro
09-03-2008, 07:34 AM
You mean this thread isn't about guessing how old Doug is?? J/K

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 07:45 AM
You mean this thread isn't about guessing how old Doug is?? J/K
I was born 7/2/43, which makes me, as I count it, 49 years of age. That's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

jason_b
09-03-2008, 10:49 AM
How did I not think about that great view from that area around 6th and Walker for #1? Actually, I think I didn't know Emerson School was there yet.

bornhere
09-03-2008, 11:19 AM
Emerson opened in 1895.

Doug Loudenback
09-03-2008, 02:53 PM
According to Vanished Splendor II, the original Emerson was built in 1894 but burned to the ground in 1917 along with all of the records of the Board of Education which were stored there. The current-day Emerson was built at the same location.

rondvu
09-04-2008, 06:43 PM
Doug here are a couple of postcards that are currently on E-bay. The top one has the Culbertson building and the bottom cards looks like was taken from the site of the current Cox Convention Center.
1940s-1950s Cars, 2 Oklahoma City OK Street Scenes - eBay (item 350095581088 end time Sep-09-08 17:06:59 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/1940s-1950s-Cars-2-Oklahoma-City-OK-Street-Scenes_W0QQitemZ350095581088QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em350095581088&_trkparms=72%3A1071%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ebayphotohosting)

Doug Loudenback
09-04-2008, 08:45 PM
Thanks, rondvu,

I've seen the top one before and have a pretty bad copy I think, but I'd not seen the 2nd one and it's pretty interesting. The Culbertson Building is in the 2nd postcard, too -- notice the back side of the Phillips 66 sign, more easily seen in the "larger" view:

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959s.jpg

Same card with my notes:

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959_2.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959_2s.jpg

Here's a drawing I've made showing the area, generally, with notations:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/1922crop.jpg

Comparing the map with the annotated postcard, and since the visible north/south road in the foreground has no RR tracks in it, the street could be either Compress or Oklahoma but I'd guess the latter since Compress wasn't and isn't much of a street. The east/west road on the south side of the building with the aqua rectangle around it is California, I'd suppose. And I further suppose that the photographer's vantage point was Reno looking northwest, probably Reno & Oklahoma.

Someone with an eye for warehouse district photos (Steve, MMM, others?) could probably identify the "??" building but I lack that knowledge. But, identification of that building should tell the tale.

Anyway, the visible foreground area is in the warehouse district somewhere, I think.

What's your take?

rondvu
09-04-2008, 08:56 PM
Could it be taken from the railroad tracks?

Doug Loudenback
09-04-2008, 09:09 PM
Well, maybe so. The RR tracks were elevated in the 1930s and I guess you are suggesting that possibly the photographer was up on the tracks -- and the camera angle does suggest something around that height for the photographer's location.

I've got some 1950s street maps either in my blog or personal collection and I'll check them out to see if they help and report again.

Doug Loudenback
09-05-2008, 01:39 AM
OK, rondvu, I've done further checking (and thinking) and I've concluded that your hypothesis is absolutely correct! I was wrong to place the postcard's location in the warehouse district and, unless someone corrects me yet again, I am persuaded that the correct annotations and location of the postcard is/are as follows:

Annotated postcard

Larger image: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959_3.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/unknown1959_3s.jpg

The street maps I have weren't any help ... they were not detailed enough. But, some Sanborn Insurance Maps (1929, updated 1949) were. Below, a cropped and annotated Sanborn map shows the following detail:

Larger view: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/sanborn_unknownpostcard.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/Postcards/sanborn_unknownpostcards.jpg

Plus, there is just the logic of it all. IF the vantage point of the postcard was in the warehouse district, as I thought, since the photo was taken at some elevation above ground level, the elevated Santa Fe viaduct would have been observed in the picture, but it was not.

I now place the photographer's location, as you did, on the elevated viaduct, very near, perhaps a bit south of, the Santa Fe Depot, and that probably accounts for the automobiles seen in the picture's foreground -- probably there because of the Santa Fe Depot.

There may be more to be said, but I think this pretty well says the most important part. The area north of Reno and up to Grand (Sheridan) would certainly be part of the Cox Convention Center area. Good job!

rondvu
09-05-2008, 08:00 AM
I just pulled out a 1951 Polks city directory. For the address on W California I see 5 was the Big Four Cafe, 9 was the Terminal Hotel, 13 Fairgrounds Barber Shop and Transfer Co, 13-1/2 was David Patterson furnished rooms. 15 W California was full of activity. The Texas Pool Hall, Uncle Levi Transfer, Joe Jones restaraunt. 15-1/2 was Allen Frank Furnished rooms. On SW 2nd formerly W Washington was 19 Acme Mills Co, 21 Davidson and Chase Lumber Co, 21-1/2 was John Perkins. I cannot determine if any of this is in the postcard.