Let's bring a post on Steve's blog here for discussion. I'm sure he won't mind.


Keep all this mind as I quote from today’s story about the impact of the new Devon Tower on downtown’s tax increment financing district:

O’Connor sees no shortage of takers for any increase in TIF funding — and she said she strongly believes Devon’s project will be followed by more high-rises in the immediate neighborhood.

“There is an element of spin-off here,” O’Connor said.

Well now, isn’t that interesting? Now, let’s put this together with what I’ve written previously about veteran developer Nicholas Preftakes...

And then he posts an article from May about how Preftakes has purchased tons of property around the future Devon site.

So, the implication is that Preftakes may be next in downtown development... which may be high rises.

But, apparently the TIF district is attracting more than just a couple developers...

Discuss...

I need a primer on how this works. TIF funding = ? Who is Preftakes.

Hopefully there will be affordable highrises. I would love to get a single person unit for under 200k downtown.

Hopefully there will be affordable highrises. I would love to get a single person unit for under 200k downtown.

You can get that in a lot of bigger cities, no reason we can't do it here.

I just read the blog and that is certainly interesting. It seems to me that at some point in the future, the West side of Downtown could support a new-construction mid-rise residential building, that would attract a different demographic than Bricktown/Deep Deuce. My parents and their friends might be drawn to the proximity to civic center (symphony, ballet, etc.), art museum, gardens, etc. I see that side of Downtown being more "grown up." I don't know if Park Harvey and Arts Quarter are full yet but I would imagine there won't be new residential construction over there until someone is sure the market can handle it.

As far as multi-tenant non-corporate HQ office towers such as Leadership Square, I can't believe that anything like that will happen for the foreseeable future with all the space that will soon be dumped on the market by Devon.

I do hope that when new construction eventually comes, and it will come, that some care will be taken to destroy as few existing buildings as possible. OKC has done enough of that. It's been a while since i've been over there in the area in question, but hopefully there is blighted land that does not contain existing 10-story bldgs. When possible, let's add to the density instead of replacing old density with new density.

It's been a while since i've been over there in the area in question, but hopefully there is blighted land that does not contain existing 10-story bldgs. When possible, let's add to the density instead of replacing old density with new density.

Exactly we don't need another Biltmore coming down!

I posted this earlier on the Devon Tower thread

I think any building projects that increase downtown density are good. The more people living downtown, the more attractive it will be to retail and other services such as grocery stores, drug stores, etc. I hoping, hoping, hoping the Flatiron Building grocery store is still in their plans.

I posted this earlier on the Devon Tower thread

I thought it deserved its own thread.

I do hope that when new construction eventually comes, and it will come, that some care will be taken to destroy as few existing buildings as possible. OKC has done enough of that.

I completely agree. Unfortunately Mr. Preftakes' block is one of the only completely intact pieces of historic downtown left. If he plans to build new construction, something's going to have to come down. Considering his track record, I would hope that he would not do that, but rather turn those buildings into residential. Hotel Black, the former parking garage next to it, and especially Main Place are beautiful buildings that are perfect for residential.

I think the best locations for a new residential tower would be the empty lot SW of the bus station, and the former KMG surface parking fronting Broadway across from Red Prime and next to First Methodist. The church may be using that parking currently, but something could be worked out. It's just too prime of a spot there at 4th and Broadway to be surface parking, and I think it's close enough in to the CBD that a midrise or highrise would work.

Exactly we don't need another Biltmore coming down!
is there anything like the biltmore that even could be razed? i can't think of anything?

I just read the blog and that is certainly interesting. It seems to me that at some point in the future, the West side of Downtown could support a new-construction mid-rise residential building, that would attract a different demographic than Bricktown/Deep Deuce. My parents and their friends might be drawn to the proximity to civic center (symphony, ballet, etc.), art museum, gardens, etc. I see that side of Downtown being more "grown up." I don't know if Park Harvey and Arts Quarter are full yet but I would imagine there won't be new residential construction over there until someone is sure the market can handle it.

As far as multi-tenant non-corporate HQ office towers such as Leadership Square, I can't believe that anything like that will happen for the foreseeable future with all the space that will soon be dumped on the market by Devon.

I do hope that when new construction eventually comes, and it will come, that some care will be taken to destroy as few existing buildings as possible. OKC has done enough of that. It's been a while since i've been over there in the area in question, but hopefully there is blighted land that does not contain existing 10-story bldgs. When possible, let's add to the density instead of replacing old density with new density.


Well, truth be told; Devon's going to 'dump' only 660K sq feet of space and all of it Class A and AAA and in large continuous segments (17 floors of Chase and all 20 floors of it's Mid America hq).

that will get eaten alive, as was mentioned before - American Fidelity most likely snapping up Mid America and who wouldn't want to office in Chase - OKC's signature leasible skyscraper.

In fact, I think Larry Nichols is on to something, so is Oklahoma City. These guys tend to down-play things until it's 'READY' to proceed. Here's some examples:

Devon: Larry Nichols announced YEARS AGO that he'd like to build a skyscraper in downtown and consolidate his company. There has been speculation for at least two years of this, and he officially came forward early this year (or late last) but said he would wait until he was confident downtown would not take a big hit from his move. Later in the spring, Larry announced 37 storeys and at least 1M sq ft at the Galleria site. Then finally recently, 1.9M 54 storeys BUT 925 feet. You can build a 54 storey office tower with just 750 feet, but 925 - an additional almost 200 feet.

Also lately, Larry mentioned that he's discussed with other businesses and imagines his new skyscraper will be the beginning. Judging from Larry's track record - look for a number of companies (in OKC and outside of the state) to be coming to downtown OKC; and it would probably be just as amazing as all of us were when the Devon Tower renderings were released on Wed.

OKC: specifically regarding the airport. OKC's airport capital plan always called for a redesign with a wing configuration consisting of a West, Central, and East concourse. This originally was to be done in Two Phases, with a Third Phase constituting an extended Central concourse. Things were "modified" witn 911 and only the West and some of the Central concourse got built. The East was now deemed the Phase III and leaders said it might be built when pax demand called for it. Interestingly enough, OKC does have pax demand but not necessarily much greater than in pre 911's 2001 (OKC is still around 4M pax per annum) - yet the city announced they are going to proceed with the East Concourse.

My point is, pax numbers aren't that much higher than in 2001 - yet are good enough in somebody's opinion for a new concourse to be built when it used to be such a big deal not to build it. I personally think something's going on - and there might be more to this story. We know airlines are looking for cheaper airports and other models to reduce costs. And if anybody could offer reduced or free use of their facility - it's OKC, since the city get's a significant profit from its land from Oil and grazing (free lawn service). I don't know or have any specifics - but I wouldn't be surprised if within a year we are not all 'shocked' again, this time with regard to the airport plans.

In some respects, I can understand why city and corporate leaders in OKC are tight lipped. They've gotten burned so many times in the past - and some of that was due to the OKC media itself; crucifying urban plans if they were not 'part of the ole faction'. Look at Clay Bennett, need I say any more with regard to getting buried by the media....

So, I suppose what Im trying to say is - we can no longer discount Oklahoma City. I am going 180 degrees away from STL's prediction (where he said he didn't see any significant relocation to OKC), there's plenty of reasons to support otherwise. and city leaders are up to something, I just can't wait to be overwhelmed again when they do announce! All of those reasons why companies wouldn't relocate or people wouldn't move to OKC are all of sudden starting to shrink significantly! soon, there will be no reason (unless you are allergic to heat/humidity like me, lol).

I tell you, Wednesday was something special - I could not get anything done because I was all smiles the whole day, and could not stop looking at Devon's new skyscraper renderings. Even when I was listening to music, every song FIT that tower - and I imagined myself driving listening to music and looking at this beauty of a building with a HUGE smile of pride on my face.

Im an OKC expat, so I can ONLY imagine what city residents might be thinking. And with what happened with regard to the Seattle Supersonics - I will NEVER underestimate Oklahoma City again; and Im sure Seattle wont either.

Good times are ahead for OKC, I have a very strong feeling this past year is only the beginning!

forget Capital, OKC might be the CITY of the New Century!

Continue the Renaissance.

What about MidFirst Bank? Where is their headquarters? And do they have enough employees at HQ to justify a new tower downtown?

is there anything like the biltmore that even could be razed? i can't think of anything?

stlokc was talking about tearing down old a historic buildings for new ones. I think The Biltmore is a good example. At least we got the Myriad Gardens out of it being torn down.

Soonerfever, it's interesting to note that the plans for the Myriad Gardens originally called for the Biltmore to be a part of gardens. In fact, the area where the Biltmore stood was largely undeveloped until the Meinders gardens were added several years ago. Urban Renewal even sought to build a Hilton Hotel on the Biltmore site (not to be a shameless promoter, but you can read more about this and see the drawings, etc. in our book "OKC Second Time Around," which I wrote with Jack Money).
This whole discussion is really interesting, because if you think about it, downtown OKC has had an aversion to tearing down buildings since the end of the original Urban Renewal era in the early 1980s. And yet I suspect we're looking at another wave of demolition ....

This whole discussion is really interesting, because if you think about it, downtown OKC has had an aversion to tearing down buildings since the end of the original Urban Renewal era in the early 1980s. And yet I suspect we're looking at another wave of demolition ....1 step forward and 2 steps back.

Why don't developers ever see this?!? There are actual empty lots with grass and blacktop parking lots around downtown. BUILD THERE!!!

Thanks Steve, I was unaware of that!

I think the big difference between the two eras of urban renewal is that in the first wave, dilapitated building were removed and vacant lots were left in the hope that developers would want to build on the vacant land. Very few developers showed up. Developers now are buying occupied sites with the plan to redevelope the properties.

I don't like the idea of tearing buildings down just to have a vacant lot for future use. However, if someone has a plan to replace an existing building with something that is bigger and better then I am all for that. I like the Hotel Black but if it has to come down so a 25 story condo can go up then I say bring on the wrecking ball.

I like New York, it is a great place to visit. But that being said the one thing that I find missing is the history. Except for the area around Battery Park and the Wall Street area the history of this great city is not all that much older than OKC even though the city itself has been around since the mid 17th century. Every time I go back there is a new building going up where another building used to stand. I like to visit the history of a place and like the idea of recycling if at all possible.
I know that just because something is old does not mean it has to be kept at all costs but I would like to get rid of the disposable mentality. For instance the reworking of the Colcord was fantastic. That is a building that you really have to get close to to appreciate. I would hate to see something torn down just because it was in the way without regard of its asthetics or history.

There's so much vacant land around downtown OKC I'd liek to see some developers pickup that land as opposed to just trashing the buildings already down there. If space were at a premium then that'd be one thing, but its not. So why destroy the old heritage/character of downtown? I'm not against every instance of destruction to build bigger/better but I think people need to consider the buildings that already exist and look at the character they provide. Ugly or not they're a part of OKC's history and downtown's history.

I like the Hotel Black but if it has to come down so a 25 story condo can go up then I say bring on the wrecking ball.

I say BOOOOOOOOOOOO to that thinking. Absolutely terrible thinking. There is hardly a historic building left in downtown, and yet with so many empty lots and surface parking, you are saying that?????????

jbrown84 - if was up to me then I wouldn't want to lose anymore than we already have, but I don't own those buildings so it isn't up to me. Yes there are many surface parking lots around downtown that I would prefer to see developer first. However, a person can only develope the properties they own. If they don't own a vacant lot then they can't develope a vacant lot. I know in the past several developers have tried to buy several of the parking lots but the owners won't sell.

I like New York, it is a great place to visit. But that being said the one thing that I find missing is the history. Except for the area around Battery Park and the Wall Street area the history of this great city is not all that much older than OKC

Oh I beg to differ. I see what you're saying, but the West Village, Soho, Lower East Side, Upper West Side, Upper East Side all retain major historical elements and grand architecture. What about Harlem? Washington Heights?

I realize there are a lot of new high rise towers in Manhattan and the gentrification has turned it into a more generic version of itself no matter where you are in the city, but it has retained so much historical architecture and neighborhoods.

It's just too damn expensive!

jbrown84 - if was up to me then I wouldn't want to lose anymore than we already have, but I don't own those buildings so it isn't up to me. Yes there are many surface parking lots around downtown that I would prefer to see developer first. However, a person can only develope the properties they own. If they don't own a vacant lot then they can't develope a vacant lot. I know in the past several developers have tried to buy several of the parking lots but the owners won't sell.

Either way, a highrise (if that's what Preftakes plans) can easily be fit into that block. There is a 1-story wing of the Black that could go, and as much as I'd hate to see the Lunch Box (dating to WWI-era) demolished, it's not as valuable as the taller structures. I could also live without the 1-story on the SW corner of Main & Hudson that was once Skyline Theatre. Either spot could easily hold a residential tower. It would add density as well.

I was looking at the one story building yesterday (thanks to Google Streeview) Any idea how many parking spaces in the Autohotel? That would give a good indication of what size building could replace the one story structure.

stlokc was talking about tearing down old a historic buildings for new ones. I think The Biltmore is a good example. At least we got the Myriad Gardens out of it being torn down.

Myriad Garden is wayyy underutilized, but I went to a workshop this past Saturday with plans to revamp it. Myriad Gardens still would have happened and been sizeable even if we would have/should have saved Biltmore.

There is a 1-story wing of the Black that could go, and as much as I'd hate to see the Lunch Box (dating to WWI-era) demolished, it's not as valuable as the taller structures.
hey j, from what i read in steve's blog... i think the lunchbox became a restaurant around the WWI era, but has been in that particular location since 1947 (which still is significant)... but yeah, i'd rather see a tower.

Either way, a highrise (if that's what Preftakes plans) can easily be fit into that block. There is a 1-story wing of the Black that could go, and as much as I'd hate to see the Lunch Box (dating to WWI-era) demolished, it's not as valuable as the taller structures. I could also live without the 1-story on the SW corner of Main & Hudson that was once Skyline Theatre. Either spot could easily hold a residential tower. It would add density as well.

The more I think about it, I could see Preftakes turing the Black into a hotel again, putting in a highrise residential unit where the 2 one story building are (he also owns a one-story building that faces Main St under the name Main Street Developers or something like that), and keeping the Autohotel as parking for both buildings.

I agree, I'd like to see him open Hotel Black up again, then tear down the one story building on Main and Hudson (the theatre, I think it was Lyric Theatre). Put a condo tower up there and keep the rest of the block in tact (unless he wants to build a tower where the parking garage is).

Hot Rod-
I appreciate your enthusiasm for OKC and I share it. As a fellow ex-pat, I talk up Oklahoma City every chance I get. And I fully agree that the city has turned a corner and is moving in the right direction. I probably spent hours reading about the Devon Tower and studying the renderings.

I further agree that Larry Nichols has done, and continues to do tremendous things for OKC. By saying the word "dump" I did not mean to imply otherwise.

I guess I am curious what you know about American Fidelity "most likely" snapping up Devon's current tower. I know that it has been speculated, but I was not at all sure that that was more than a fleeting rumor. As for Chase Tower, I am sure that it will draw interest. But again, 17 floors is a lot of space to fill. When you say "Who wouldn't want to be in the signature leasable tower?" I would respond by saying that I would love to office there and most of the people on this board would love to office there. But just wanting it to be the case won't make it so. Let's think about the big suburban office users - do we have indications that any of the big ones are chomping at the bit to come downtown and just waiting for the right opportunity? If so, I would love to know who they are. If current downtowners move over there, that's fine but they will leave a hole wherever they are currently and that's not any more than a wash.

Again, I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, as a matter of fact, I want to be even more optimistic about downtown than I am. But I still say there are a lot of unknowns and a lot of leasing activity to be contemplated before we could anticipate new office skyscrapers downtown.

stl, I appreciate your enthusiasm too. It is wonderful to have so many people who care about OKC - and now we all have pride in the city too.

I always knew it had potential, now it's nice to see others also and see the city reaching for those stars.

Continue the Renaissance!

Do you think the next high rise will be residential or office tower? And why?

Luke, it depends on your definition of a high-rise. Are we going with 500ft as a high rise? If so OKC may go awhile before seeing something that tall again other than Devon. Otherwise, we may see a mid-rise residential or smaller corporate tower. Say American Fidelity, but I doubt they will build or even need anything taller than 500ft.

I think that there is a third option for a high rise and that is a hotel. Especially if the new convention center is built. I would not bet money on it but it is a real possibility.

i think we really need a residential highrise.... the only option we have is park harvey which is nice and pretty affordable but not much of an option... there is nothing over 6 floors i can think of or have found since i'm looking for a place.... i really want the downtown highrise living experience and i know i'm not alone.... so i really think we need a residential highrise soon, very soon.... please!

i think we really need a residential highrise.... the only option we have is park harvey which is nice and pretty affordable but not much of an option... there is nothing over 6 floors i can think of or have found since i'm looking for a place.... i really want the downtown highrise living experience and i know i'm not alone.... so i really think we need a residential highrise soon, very soon.... please!

actually there is Regency Tower which is around 20 stories, ALL residential.

Sounds like the top 18 floors of City Place will soon be apartments/condos.

regency isn't bad, not a big fan tho... i'm just sayin we have 2 maybe 3 options

I would like to see apartment high-rise with real underground parking. I don't want to walk away from the building like Park Harvey. The regency is not impressive to me, it is really dated. Lakeview and Tiffany are a joke. I am sure we will see something nice soon.

Ran across this vid about demolitions. Check out what's at 0:39.
LiveLeak.com - The mother of all demolition VIDs (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29c_1223954392)

I would like to see apartment high-rise with real underground parking. I don't want to walk away from the building like Park Harvey. The regency is not impressive to me, it is really dated. Lakeview and Tiffany are a joke. I am sure we will see something nice soon.

The Classen and 360 are not a joke, but very nice, and pricey too!

Ran across this vid about demolitions. Check out what's at 0:39.
LiveLeak.com - The mother of all demolition VIDs (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29c_1223954392)

AH! this really pisses me off! everytime i see something referring to it, or see pictures of how dense our DT would be i get so pissed!