With all that is going on in OKC now I wonder what is making the most impact? Maps projects? NBA coming to town? Devon Tower? C2S? Maybe something I haven't mentioned? How would you place everything in order of importance?

Lots of questions huh? :dizzy: :dizzy:

I think it's all a collaborative effort and they play off each other.

MAPS > C2S > Devon > NBA


Although when/if C2S comes to full fruition, that would truly be our city's renaissance.

How many times can the "the many" be fleeced for the benefit of "the few?"

TOM ELMORE

How many times do the few provide jobs, growth, opportunity and stability for the many?

It's simple - the driving force is natural gas. CHK, DVN, and to some extent SD are the ones constructing the buildings, hiring the young people who demand a better downtown, paying higher wages that result in OK college grads staying in state, distributing millions in royalties to local citizens, supporting every philanthropical or educational organization, and their leaders are even the ones bringing an NBA team to town. All other industries and organizations are directly benefiting from the success of these companies and their willingness to do whatever it takes to make their hometown a better place.

Fortunately most experts forsee nat gas as the fuel of the future, so there are exciting times ahead for OKC.

Those are good observations sdsooners.

But you also have to give credit to the citizenry in general, who got behind MAPS and really got the ball rolling. This was at a time before all the civic investment and large-scale hiring by the energy companies.

Now, the energy-driven economy and optimism and enthusiasm from the people that live in the metro continue to play off each other, as there is plenty of vision and pride that also needs the financial muscle to bring all these things to fruition.

I see no reason why this won't continue -- with a few little bumps along the way -- well into the future. As these companies keep investing in OKC, it benefits them directly as well as the community at large.

How many times can the "the many" be fleeced for the benefit of "the few?"

TOM ELMORE

I don't know - you tell me Tom. When are you going to stop holding up progress on I-40? The 1.2 million people in the metro are ready for you to get out of the way.

Now to answer the original question. I think the ultimate catalyst was failure to land the United Airlines maintenance facility. That was the point where OKC realized it was at rock bottom. MAPS was put in place to start the rebuilding process at the infrastructure level but it went beyond that and changed people attitude. Attitude is now the driving force and OKC has an abundance of it right now.

Kerry, some of us 1.2 million still like our governmental agencies to not submit falsified reports and/or ignore the law in the name of progress. Some of us think that the end does not always justify the means.

Right now, the project is being held up because of ODOT's own incompetence. Under previous administrations, this never would have happened. Heads need to roll at that agency so that it can be run competently again.

In Oklahoma, we used to have a "Highway Department" and another department for rail. Since ODOT has obviously failed to consider that transportation consists of more than just roads and bridges, perhaps it's time to split those departments up again? Money is a corrupting influence, and at least these days, roads and bridges are getting all of it.

What we have here is a pretty serious evil which no "greater good" formula can ever justify. We have a state agency who knows or should know what the proper procedure to condemn a rail line is. We have at least one business which depends on that rail line absolutely. The government here attempted to wreck this business without affording them notice or an opportunity to be heard. I think it's terrible that anyone can think this is "okay" and we "just need to get this done." That ricockulous attitude is what got ODOT into this mess.

When spending millions, maybe even billions by the time this is over of the taxpayers' money, ODOT has a responsibility to at minimum follow proper procedure and not falsify the things they file with the administrative courts. This is not Tom Elmore or anyone else standing in the way of progress. ODOT is solely responsible for this (and maybe BNSF to a degree). You should be directing your outrage at them.

On second thought - I don't want to turn this into a Tom Elmore discussion.

You brought it up.

So do you support the government being able to ignore the law and due process whenever they feel the end justifies the means?

MAPS was the inspiration, and the others have followed. I think the NBA will garner us the most national attention, but C2S and the natural growth of businesses, retail and residential around it will make us into a city in which people want to live, and to which people want to move. Devon is building us an icon, and it sounds like jobs will follow as well. What is happening now is synergistic, but MAPS was the catalyst.

MAPS was the inspiration, and the others have followed. I think the NBA will garner us the most national attention, but C2S and the natural growth of businesses, retail and residential around it will make us into a city in which people want to live, and to which people want to move. Devon is building us an icon, and it sounds like jobs will follow as well. What is happening now is synergistic, but MAPS was the catalyst.

Absolutely.

How many construction jobs will the tower bring to downtown? That in itself can spur some economic activity.

How many construction jobs will the tower bring to downtown? That in itself can spur some economic activity.

I believe they said somewhere around 500 during the press conference.

How many times do the few provide jobs, growth, opportunity and stability for the many?

Ditto

I don't know - you tell me Tom. When are you going to stop holding up progress on I-40? The 1.2 million people in the metro are ready for you to get out of the way.

Now to answer the original question. I think the ultimate catalyst was failure to land the United Airlines maintenance facility. That was the point where OKC realized it was at rock bottom. MAPS was put in place to start the rebuilding process at the infrastructure level but it went beyond that and changed people attitude. Attitude is now the driving force and OKC has an abundance of it right now.

I had forgot about the AA facility and what transpired after that. Maybe out of failure we were able to make giant moves in the future.

I was talking with my son this morning about the Tower and he asked about was there going to be a public access observation deck in the DT? I guess I missed if that has been discussed.

No observation deck - the general public will not be allowed in the tower itself. I would be happy if they just moved the tower from the fairgrounds to bricktown. Why use it 15 days year when it could be used everyday.

I don't know - you tell me Tom. When are you going to stop holding up progress on I-40? The 1.2 million people in the metro are ready for you to get out of the way.


A-FREAKING-MEN on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!:beaten_fi

As per usual, I'm with midtowner on this one. Gotta do things the right way; we're nothing without the rules.

How many times can the "the many" be fleeced for the benefit of "the few?"

TOM ELMORE


AMEN

I wish more of the people in this forum living in their delusional ivory towers would wake up and realize what's really going on in this City.

It is not ivory tower thinking that says it's okay to lie and defraud the federal administrative courts in order to get your way.

What an absurd notion.

So when the forms are resubmitted and the approval is given again to remove the railyard then Tom, fuzzytoad, and all of the others will be on board for the new I-40. Is that what I am hearing?

This whole time I though T.E. was wanting to save the railyard and his vision of the future of rail in Oklahoma. I see it turns out that he really just wanted the demolition paperwork filled our properly.

There seems to remain a serious question as to whether the administrative body will approve the application if it contains truthful information. I don't understand the whole process, but seemingly part of abandoning a rail line probably includes some sort of showing that the line is no longer being used.

The body doesn't care if this snafu caused by ODOT will cost ODOT money. That is ODOT's fault, 100%.

If it is approved, then ODOT will have complied with the law and there's nothing more to be said, except maybe, if someone knowingly filed fraudulent documents and they're lawyers, they should be reported to the appropriate Bar Association.

The only reason to file fraudulent papers (if done knowingly) is the knowledge that filing truthful papers could prove problematic to the project. We shall see whether approval is ultimately granted or not.

Add a comprehensive mass transit system to that list. OKC is growing because its two driving industries, energy and medicine, are some of the fastest growing industries. Add to that a comfortable climate, increasing entertainment/dining options, relatively low housing prices, and an educated workforce (due to OU, OCU, and UCO) and you have the foundation for longterm sustained growth in those fields and others. Now if we can just get that mass transit system we can be a national leader in smart growth and lose one of our biggest stigmas: that we're sprawled out (which is true).

What's particularly troubling is the recognition that Oklahoma's "transportation experts" insist they "didn't see today's difficulties coming." They "didn't see the value of the last grand Union Station rail yard in the West with all its original yard space intact."

But they're "experts."

That's "why the people of Oklahoma pay them," presumably.

But a citizen panel -- way back in 1999 -- apparently saw what was coming and told them in no uncertain terms what should be done with OKC Union Station.

Imagine what a hero Kirk Humphreys might have been had he shown the wisdom to recognize that upright politics is at least as much about "listening" as it is about "talking" -- and started real transit development then.

Instead -- his attitude -- confronted with the visionary work of a citizen transportation panel -- was about the same as Gary Ridley's: "There was a time when we didn't even have to ask you what you thought..."

The "driving force?" All too often, ego. Blind self-interest. "Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven."

I don't know whether anybody has noticed -- but that's not "the American way." To the contrary, the American way is when citizens rise up against such nonsense and see that it does not prevail. It's especially sweet that the citizenry didn't even need "Tax Increment Financing" to do it.

TOM ELMORE

Add a comprehensive mass transit system to that list. OKC is growing because its two driving industries, energy and medicine, are some of the fastest growing industries. Add to that a comfortable climate, increasing entertainment/dining options, relatively low housing prices, and an educated workforce (due to OU, OCU, and UCO) and you have the foundation for longterm sustained growth in those fields and others. Now if we can just get that mass transit system we can be a national leader in smart growth and lose one of our biggest stigmas: that we're sprawled out (which is true).

You are leaving something out which in a few years is going to be HUGE. Our forefathers left us with a fantastic resevoir system. While Oklahoma doesn't receive the same sort of rainfall that you'd find in the Southeastern part of the U.S., we do more with the water we have.

While agricultural uses of water coming out of the ever-sinking Ogallalah Aquifer are being seriously threatened, we've done some great things with our surface water (that not being used for agriculture). We have a resource there which cities in the Western U.S. do not. At some point, those cities are going to reach a critical mass as far as their water resources, which are not even sustainable at the level they're at due to erosion, salinity of Lake Meade, the Colorado River, etc.

When water becomes a limiting factor to do business, cities such as OKC which have been wisely building up a huge reservoir system will be rewarded. In fact, we very well may be the westernmost major city which isn't really effected by dwindling water supplies. I think that could be huge over the next 20-30 years.

What I am repeatedly struck by, and what my personal experience is from living in other cities, is just how useful a good bus system can be, and how acceptable it can be to people of all economic strata when conditions are right: high gas prices, difficulty parking, reliable bus schedules and comprehensive routes. We have a fairly inexpensive solution within our grasp, if we were simply to put some emphasis on increasing the number of buses, increasing timeliness and using sensible routes. I, like a lot of other people, was all fired up about light rail, but it is hugely expensive, far less responsive to changes in population concentrations and much harder to implement. Lets promote a comprehensive bus system first, and see how our population responds to alternate transportation options.

No observation deck - the general public will not be allowed in the tower itself. I would be happy if they just moved the tower from the fairgrounds to bricktown. Why use it 15 days year when it could be used everyday.

This is the first real negative thing about the Tower I have heard. I can't believe they won't have public access to an observation deck!!! I can't recall any tall building of this size or greater that doesn't have an observation deck with public access. Even if they charge I could live with that.

What I am repeatedly struck by, and what my personal experience is from living in other cities, is just how useful a good bus system can be, and how acceptable it can be to people of all economic strata when conditions are right: high gas prices, difficulty parking, reliable bus schedules and comprehensive routes. We have a fairly inexpensive solution within our grasp, if we were simply to put some emphasis on increasing the number of buses, increasing timeliness and using sensible routes. I, like a lot of other people, was all fired up about light rail, but it is hugely expensive, far less responsive to changes in population concentrations and much harder to implement. Lets promote a comprehensive bus system first, and see how our population responds to alternate transportation options.

I can get down with this, but - and I don't know this for sure- it seems like there's an inherent unpredictability of busses being on time? You can fix that a little better with rail...

Ah yes, the old "The beatings will continue until morale improves" argument.

The reality is simple -- and is now irrefutably proven: Rail transit services bring the middle class back to transit. Only implementation of rail transit services has consistently increased ridership of connecting bus services.

The "flexibility of buses over rail" argument is just absurd. It's one of the lame arguments Ernest J. Istook trotted out when he sought to justify giving Salt Lake the meat of the watermelon and sticking us with the rind back in 1996. That "flexibility," which means "nobody has any idea where the trolley is at this moment," is precisely the problem with OKC's "trolleys" -- just as we warned back in 1996.

Rail reorients population distribution because of its permanency and reliability. That's why Salt Lake wanted it -- and that's why it's working like crazy in 20 or more other US cities that have brought it back over the last 20 years.

Rail is now, clearly, the "holy grail" of transit and transportation across the nation and throughout the world -- and Oklahoma City has more usable rail on the ground right now -- not some pie-in-the-sky "light rail" deal -- than nearly any other city in the West.

Oklahoma City is literally in the catbird seat. We have everything we need to make a knockout start -- except honest, straightforward leadership interested in the good of the people at large.

Well -- gee -- how about some sidetrack substitute, like "more Istook trolleys" or "Bus Rapid Transit?" The answer is crystal clear: You will never (never) see a train of any kind trying to "look like a bus..."

If we let these people beat us out of our rail assets, the excuse, then, will be, "Well, we coulda done it back there when we had our Union Station -- but now we can't afford it...."

What's that "other old saying?" -- "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.....?"

Give me a break.

TOM ELMORE

Ah yes, the old "The beatings will continue until morale improves" argument.

The reality is simple -- and is now irrefutably proven: Rail transit services bring the middle class back to transit. Only implementation of rail transit services has consistently increased ridership of connecting bus services.

The "flexibility of buses over rail" argument is just absurd. It's one of the lame arguments Ernest J. Istook trotted out when he sought to justify giving Salt Lake the meat of the watermelon and sticking us with the rind back in 1996. That "flexibility," which means "nobody has any idea where the trolley is at this moment," is precisely the problem with OKC's "trolleys" -- just as we warned back in 1996.

Rail reorients population distribution because of its permanency and reliability. That's why Salt Lake wanted it -- and that's why it's working like crazy in 20 or more other US cities that have brought it back over the last 20 years.

Rail is now, clearly, the "holy grail" of transit and transportation across the nation and throughout the world -- and Oklahoma City has more usable rail on the ground right now -- not some pie-in-the-sky "light rail" deal -- than nearly any other city in the West.

Oklahoma City is literally in the catbird seat. We have everything we need to make a knockout start -- except honest, straightforward leadership interested in the good of the people at large.

Well -- gee -- how about some sidetrack substitute, like "more Istook trolleys" or "Bus Rapid Transit?" The answer is crystal clear: You will never (never) see a train of any kind trying to "look like a bus..."

If we let these people beat us out of our rail assets, the excuse, then, will be, "Well, we coulda done it back there when we had our Union Station -- but now we can't afford it...."

What's that "other old saying?" -- "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.....?"

Give me a break.

TOM ELMORE

Tom a lot of the problem is also public apathy and ignorance. The gas price problem is relatively new. Sure, it was going up, and it was foreseeable that it would continue to do so, but not necessarily so quickly so as to choke the lower class and middle classes to having problems getting around. There was no call to action 20 years ago...and 20 years ago, OKC was pretty down in the dumps economically anyway. It's not like people were super-excited about public expenditures. There was no sense of community then like there is now.

Also, I'll use myself as an example: we're all trying to be city planners of a major metro area on this board...yet I know nothing about public transit or rail. Sure, I know what I'd like to see to benefit me, but it's not like I can actually plan where it goes. How many people in OKC AREN'T on this board? Well, almost ALL of them! The normal person knows they can't drive all the time, but they don't know how to solve the problem. Buses? Cabs? Bicycles? We're inexperienced in this area.

Now, you're right, we need leadership 20 years ago to make this happen. But we don't have that. I don't think our lack of public transit right now is solely due to horrible politicians stealing from the sad, poor, helpless plebes. It's a mixture of things and I don't think you can oversimplfy it.

Nowadays in OKC, we dream big and plan well...20 years ago we barely dreamt at all. Just saying.

I can get down with this, but - and I don't know this for sure- it seems like there's an inherent unpredictability of busses being on time? You can fix that a little better with rail...

Not in Chicago, not in London, and not that I remember in Denver. I didn't even have a car when I lived in Denver. I walked and rode the bus. In fact, if a bus wasn't on time, I remember I strolled towards the next bus stop, figuring eventually it would catch up with me. It was a good excuse to get some exercise, rather than standing and waiting. Of course, walking is a lot easier if you've got sidewalks, and riding buses is a lot more appealing if there are good bus stops with weather protection. I hate seeing people sitting on the ground waiting for a bus, or on a bench out in the weather. However, on the on time issue, if the buses run frequently enough, usually time is not nearly as much a problem.

TOM, thanks for bringing up a different side to the story. It keeps us balanced out. But please do you have to sign off 2-3 times per post? Your screenname identifies your post, no need to bold your name at top and bottom of each of your posts, it's another way you loose your credibility.

MAPS started it all. Had we not believed in our future in 1992, we'd still be behind Tulsa.