First of all, I am not trying to be misogynist here. Women are not dumber than men, if anythere there may be more stupid men than there are stupid women. The thing is, I know how to deal with a stupid man(by attacking his pride).

Second of all, I am not trying to bitch or complain. I work around people in IT a lot and my inability to communicate to stupid women causes me trouble. The nicer and more calm I am the harder it is to communicate.

I had it happen AGAIN today.. I was nice, I was not rude, and I did not even get stressed talking to this lady but she still got mad and hung up on me. The truth is that her customer was down because of a change she requested us to make, but I didn't even say that. I couldn't even get across to her a description of what was going on, much less explain why. Her problem was simple and could have been fixed in 5 seconds, but it most likely will not be fixed for a long time.

She was 100% at fault and unreasonable for not listening to me, and her customer is going to suffer for it. I deal with this a lot, and it is always when I have to deal with a woman. The thing is, I really WANT to help her, I just don't know how. This lady won't be the first or last lady I have to deal with in this situation, there is something about my personality that causes them to not listen to me.

Any suggestions?

Let me suggest that while you may think you were being perfectly nice and reasonable, I suspect your inner thoughts may have been coming across more than you think. You need to get that "stupid customer" mindset out of your head. I guarantee it will make a difference. I worked for me and it works for my employees. It makes it so much easier to be patient with them and explain things in terms they can understand and more importantly, are willing to understand. It's not easy, though. It's very difficult to change your thinking. But if you can put yourself in her shoes (ignore how uncomfortable they are), and really listen to what she's saying, rather than what you think she's supposed to know, you will be making an excellent start. It doesn't matter if she's 100% at fault. If she won't listen, you'll never convince her of that. Your job is not to show her where she messed up. Your job is to show her how to fix it.

Actually, my job isn't to show her how to fix it. I am not tech support.

She asked for the change, I implemented it.. she bitched at me when it did what it was supposed to. She isn't even my customer, she works for another company that is doing some stuff for one of our customers.

It wasn't because I had a "stupid customer" mindset.. in fact it was the opposite. When she asked us to make that change.. I just figured she had to know what she was doing and I went ahead and did it without questioning her about it. If I had treated her stupid from the beginning, we wouldn't be here :P

Alright...

You asked.

I don't see how being a woman had anything to do with it.

I don't see how being a woman had anything to do with it.

Amen and thank you OGTS!


Define misogyny in your terms. Your contempt is rather interesting and perhaps should be explored with a professional.

Because men and women are different and have different personalities?

George Carlin did a funny routine on "in your own terms", but nonetheless. Misogyny is to hate someone because they are a woman. I get to deal with plenty of women every day that know what they are doing and are a pleasure to deal with. Othertimes I deal with women that don't know what they are doing, but they know that so it works out and they appreciate me taking the time to help out. Misogyny isn't the issue.

The issue is when I have to deal with a stupid person. A smart person will know what they are doing and tell you what they need. A smart person will know if they don't know what they are doing, and proceed to ask someone that does know. A stupid person is a different issue all together and they presents a roadblock on the road to getting things done.

A stupid man is easy to deal with, I have effective techniques for dealing with them. As long as I can get them to talk to me, I can win. A stupid woman on the other hand.. I never seem to make progress with ever. That isn't misogynist.

Progress for me could be defined as simply getting her to let me deal with someone else. I am not picky, as long as the roadblock is dealt with.

Well, are you sure you weren't just dealing with a rude person rather than a stupid one?

Here is what struck me - you said you KNEW how to deal with a stupid man - by attacking his pride. So what I read is that when you say "deal with," you mean win or defeat. It doesn't sound like you mean "resolve an issue." Does that make sense? Or are you saying that by attacking their pride, men will be better able to reach an answer?

So if you challenge a man's pride you can win. Did you try that with a woman? I suspect she is going to feel really insulted and that you are less than useless since she is looking for something other than some testosterone battle.

At the same time, I can see where you might be frustrated if the lady wants you to explain something and you either aren't good at explaining or aren't hearing her question. I find that with some people, including a lot of men, it is like trying to armwrestle a gater to get them to answer a question I am actually asking. They keep wanting to answer the question they think I SHOULD be asking. Or they answer a straight question with something unrelated because they don't understand the relevance of the question. If they would just answer my question instead of frustrating me with their own agenda, things would go better. Sure, it may be an irrelevant question (or it might not), but so what? Just answer the question and chances are, she/he will discard that information on their own as not relevant and you will be able to help them.

Insecurity leads to labels that make someone feel superior.

Here is what struck me - you said you KNEW how to deal with a stupid man - by attacking his pride. So what I read is that when you say "deal with," you mean win or defeat. It doesn't sound like you mean "resolve an issue." Does that make sense? Or are you saying that by attacking their pride, men will be better able to reach an answer?

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. When you are dealing with a technical dispute, the only way to resolve the issue is to prove who is wrong. You can't come up with a compromise and use diplomacy because there is only one way to do most things. If your email doesn't work, there is a cause and that cause is not subjective or up for discussion. Winning(and sometimes losing) resolves the issue and there are virtually unlimited ways to go about it.

An example would be to say something like, "Well, lets call up Cisco and see what they say." You don't even have to say anything mean or change your tone, but the man doesn't want to think that he is wrong so he will go ahead and call them up and when Cisco tells them exactly what I told them the problem is resolved. The man will make up some sort of stupid excuse for what goes on and in the future he does what I tell him to do because he doesn't like getting billed. Pecking order established.

Don't get the wrong idea.. this isn't that common. Most people I deal with are not a problem at all.


So if you challenge a man's pride you can win. Did you try that with a woman? I suspect she is going to feel really insulted and that you are less than useless since she is looking for something other than some testosterone battle.

Ya. That is pretty much exactly what I am talking about. I do get the vibe that they are not hearing what they want to hear.


At the same time, I can see where you might be frustrated if the lady wants you to explain something and you either aren't good at explaining or aren't hearing her question. I find that with some people, including a lot of men, it is like trying to armwrestle a gater to get them to answer a question I am actually asking. They keep wanting to answer the question they think I SHOULD be asking. Or they answer a straight question with something unrelated because they don't understand the relevance of the question. If they would just answer my question instead of frustrating me with their own agenda, things would go better. Sure, it may be an irrelevant question (or it might not), but so what? Just answer the question and chances are, she/he will discard that information on their own as not relevant and you will be able to help them.

I admit that I am pretty guilty about that sometimes and I notice it. What I try to do is type out what they are saying as they say it so I can see it in front of me and parse it carefully. That helps me a lot in any conversation to make sure I am hearing what they say, listening is a skill that takes effort and a lot of people take it for granted.

However, You have to understand though that sometimes the questions they ask can't be answered. "You've locked us out of our email." is not a question I can answer. I would love to explain to them why their email is broken but first she is going to have to accept the fact that I am not holding the keys over her and preventing her customer from accessing their email. Until that happens, their email will never work. I have nothing to do with that. What she wanted to hear was me say that I would fix it, but I wasn't in a position to fix it because I don't run their nameserver. They had been using ours and switched to their own last Friday, so I even had the correct settings in front of me.

I hate to go specific into problems, because I am afraid it will come back to haunt me.. but that is what I have to deal with.

Here's what I have learned in dealing with my entire I/S, tech, computer department: is is a competition and anyone who doesn't know anything about your job is defined as stupid. It's an attitude problem and it's just known that especially women are not looked upon very highly within that department. You think we do not know anything about technology period and are complete idiots when it comes to computers, therefore any problems that we may call you with automatically means we are stupid. I've just learned to deal with it and have 1 or 2 people that I call when I need something because they don't act that way. Maybe that's why they seem to be everyone's favorite within the company.

Don't worry, we return the favor in other ways. For example, by leaving the coffee pot empty when we leave the break room and watch you stare at the start button not knowing what to do.

Sometimes administrative rights do not allow us to fix things we know how to fix, you should take that into consideration. Also, we DON'T know why we are locked out of our email - that is the entire reason why you are there. Imagine if every time you took your car in to have an oil change or said it was making a noise or the engine light came on that the guys in your choice of repair shop laughed at you and called you stupid. It's the same thing.

Here's what I have learned in dealing with my entire I/S, tech, computer department: is is a competition and anyone who doesn't know anything about your job is defined as stupid. It's an attitude problem and it's just known that especially women are not looked upon very highly within that department. You think we do not know anything about technology period and are complete idiots when it comes to computers, therefore any problems that we may call you with automatically means we are stupid. I've just learned to deal with it and have 1 or 2 people that I call when I need something because they don't act that way. Maybe that's why they seem to be everyone's favorite within the company.

Don't worry, we return the favor in other ways. For example, by leaving the coffee pot empty when we leave the break room and watch you stare at the start button not knowing what to do.

I can't speak for your department, but a lot of places are not like that at all. I've been to all sorts of companies where the IT staff got along with everyone just fine.

Someone needs to sit down and objectively analyze the situation. If the staff is like that to everybody than the staff is the problem. If the staff is only like that to you and is nice to everyone else, you are the problem.


Sometimes administrative rights do not allow us to fix things we know how to fix, you should take that into consideration. Also, we DON'T know why we are locked out of our email - that is the entire reason why you are there. Imagine if every time you took your car in to have an oil change or said it was making a noise or the engine light came on that the guys in your choice of repair shop laughed at you and called you stupid. It's the same thing.

If you stopped using a certain repair shop and switched to a different one and the new repair shop screwed up your car, would you call the old repair shop and ask why you car wouldn't start when they do not even have access to your car?

If you did make that call, how is the man supposed to explain to you that he has nothing to do with your car anymore? Imagine if the guy had a good idea what went wrong based off of his 20 years of experience but you wouldn't listen because you were sure it was the old repair shop that was magically making your car not work.

This is the skill I desire, there must be a way to do this.

Unfortunately the department is like that with everyone. I have adjusted and it doesn't bother me, like I said previously - I have my own little fun with them.

I know what you are saying and I think that is just a world wide human problem. Guys call me all the time and ask me stupid questions that have nothing to do with my job and get angry when I won't fix it for them or just take care of it. They always assume (I am guessing) because I am female that I should just make their problem go away. And when I don't, they become confrontational and want to speak with my supervisor. For example - would you call the maintenance department or the security department if the restroom was overflowing? They call me and when I tell them our department doesn't take care of that, they expect me to call and report it for them. They have the information on where and what - why is it my job to take it from here and fix it. Women call me and are just as stupid. I had one call me about her windshield needing repaired on her vehicle. My first response was to file a report and I would need the details on how it got busted. It didn't even happen at work. So how is this my job? I recommended a place to her just to be nice and she insisted I call and set it up for her and take care of it. No, that isn't my job. I just really don't think there is any other alternative than just pulling up your big girl panties, staying polite, and giving the information you can give without reaching through the phone and slapping the crap out of them.

Does that help?

Just a thought - I wonder how the 911 operators feel when those stupid people call with complaints on their fast food service??

I feel like I need to revisit this, having slept on it.

Are you sure you're wanting advice and not just a chance to vent (or maybe just an excuse to tell her off without getting fired)? Just on the off chance you really did want advice, here's a bit more:


That pretty much hits the nail on the head. When you are dealing with a technical dispute, the only way to resolve the issue is to prove who is wrong. You can't come up with a compromise and use diplomacy because there is only one way to do most things. If your email doesn't work, there is a cause and that cause is not subjective or up for discussion. Winning(and sometimes losing) resolves the issue and there are virtually unlimited ways to go about it.

I think when you're dealing with a technical dispute, the best way to resolve the issue is to show the person how to get to the other side of the issue. And that can be done without assigning blame or getting into an argument over who's right or wrong. The problem with right or wrong is that you get stuck on right or wrong. And the way women's minds work, you really can't attack their pride or tell them they're wrong. Frankly, you shouldn't do that with the men either because it isn't necessary. Move past the right or wrong into "how do we fix it?" If it means moving the person over to tech support, then do so. If it involves undoing what you just did, then offer to do so - without placing blame on the person for having asked for it in the first place.

...People usually have a reason for asking for the things they do, although they may not include you on what those reasons are. They may even be dumb reasons. But that's what I was saying earlier about putting yourself in that person's shoes - look at things from their perspective. In the end, though, it still doesn't matter that the person was 100% wrong. She had her reasons for asking. When it didn't work - and ultimately made things worse - it was time to move on to making it better rather than dwelling on what went wrong and who was to blame for it. It's okay to diagnose the problem, just don't hang out in there and make chili.


An example would be to say something like, "Well, lets call up Cisco and see what they say." You don't even have to say anything mean or change your tone, but the man doesn't want to think that he is wrong so he will go ahead and call them up and when Cisco tells them exactly what I told them the problem is resolved. The man will make up some sort of stupid excuse for what goes on and in the future he does what I tell him to do because he doesn't like getting billed. Pecking order established.

Don't get the wrong idea.. this isn't that common. Most people I deal with are not a problem at all.

So my original point was...don't let your first objective be to set a pecking order that puts you on top. Take care of the people that call you for help.


Ya. That is pretty much exactly what I am talking about. I do get the vibe that they are not hearing what they want to hear.

That's entirely likely. But if you set the right tone (not a "pecking order") they just might be more willing to listen to what you have to say even if it isn't what they want to hear. Like I said - less dwelling on blame, and more on getting to a real resolution.


I admit that I am pretty guilty about that sometimes and I notice it. What I try to do is type out what they are saying as they say it so I can see it in front of me and parse it carefully. That helps me a lot in any conversation to make sure I am hearing what they say, listening is a skill that takes effort and a lot of people take it for granted.

This can be helpful, but it can also backfire. Having worked in a couple of jobs where I had to type everything people were saying, I can assure you that you can't type as fast as they're talking, no matter how fast you can type. If you're typing while they're talking, a) they may be able to hear you and think you may not be paying attention to them, and b) you may actually miss something they say while you're busy trying to type everything they say. Believe it or not, you may be better served to sit and listen at first, without interrupting (we all have a habit of doing that when we think we know what someone is going to ask), and then asking if it's okay to make some notes. At that point, maybe you can talk through your notes, so your caller can verify you have things correct. That's a form of active listening. It works well in two ways - you've calmed down your caller, and you've convinced them you've actually heard them and that you're trying to help.


However, You have to understand though that sometimes the questions they ask can't be answered. "You've locked us out of our email." is not a question I can answer. I would love to explain to them why their email is broken but first she is going to have to accept the fact that I am not holding the keys over her and preventing her customer from accessing their email. Until that happens, their email will never work. I have nothing to do with that. What she wanted to hear was me say that I would fix it, but I wasn't in a position to fix it because I don't run their nameserver. They had been using ours and switched to their own last Friday, so I even had the correct settings in front of me.

The truth is, that is a question you can answer. It's not "I can't do that" or "you need to accept this" but rather "This happened last Friday (without getting too technical) so X is taking care of that now." If you have the information, then add "you can reach him at xxx-xxxx." Don't worry about the fact that you're not directory assistance. Just do it anyway because now you've made yourself look incredibly helpful. And don't react to the accusation you received at the beginning of the call, even though that may be your first inclination.

This is why you have the problems with what you term "stupid women." You react to provocation when you think they're being rude or if they're doing something dumb. Don't. Again, get rid of the "stupid customer" mindset. Be the consummate professional. Don't think of things such as your caller as something you have to "deal with." That just turns it into another chore and nobody likes chores. Do these things I have suggested and they will become victories. They won't feel like chores at all.

I guess the thing that strikes me is that in this entire thread, which goes on for quite a bit, you have asked exactly two questions Toad and one of them was rhetorical. You do a lot of telling. Perhaps it's an incorrect assumption on my part, as it is sometimes hard to gauge what is really being said over the Internet, but maybe both diplomacy as well as listening are things that could go a long way to help resolve the situation you are describing? I think there is a lot of wisdom in jsibelius' post just before this one, especially the second to the last paragraph. You might also consider that and see if that helps the next time you are dealing with a similar customer. Good luck.

in this thread:

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/1/15111/17_2008/nickburns_1.larger.jpg

-M

So, you have a problem with "stupid women" and "fat people" (your comment from another thread). Anything else you want to share with us?

The real problem is in the IT world, management and or customers treat the technicians and admins with disrespect and never solicit the tech opinions first. They always want and want and want, push programs or initiatives without understanding the consequences of a request and they don't listen to your feedback period. You jump through hoops and then they blow a gasket the instant it doesn't fit their vision of micromanagement. KUDOS to them...