Someone does not play well with others

Report: IT Admin Locks up San Francisco's Network (PC World) by PC World: Yahoo! Tech (http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/148427)

Reminds me of the old Bastard Operator from Hell series. :D
The Bastard Operator From Hell Complete (http://members.iinet.com.au/~bofh/index.html)

Computer related jobs require no sort of license or qualification.

It owns.

At least he didn't have access to something serious like BGP :P I get evil thoughts sometimes...

There are days I just want to get even with Yahoo!... *evil laugh*

Computer related jobs require no sort of license or qualification.


Maybe yours doesn't...But mine sure as hell does.

What requirement are you thinking of?

Your employer may have some requirement, like 20 years experience with Windows Vista but that doesn't mean your job requires a license or qualification. CompUSA used to require A+ certification to work there as a tech, but you won't get arrested for working on a computer without a LOL+ certification.

Plumbers, electricions, hairdressers, lawyers, etc have to go through some stuff to be able to do their job.

Plumbers, electricions, hairdressers, lawyers, etc have to go through some stuff to be able to do their job.

You seem to think that since the computer geeks don't have the powerful lobbying forces enjoyed by plumbers, electricians, etc. that the possession of a certificate certifying that the individual knows a certain skill set isn't important to employers.

It's only a matter of time until the state figures out how much money it's missing out on by not regulating computer related professions in the way we regulate others.

Car mechanics recently joined the club of regulated professions within the state (see last week's Gazette).

The certificates existing for computer related jobs are a joke, Midtower.

A few weeks ago I convinced a guy loaded with certificates that you could fix a hard drive by opening it up and putting some wd40 on the platter. I don't know if he actually tried it, but he either bought my hilarious explanation or he is a wonderful actor and is telling his friends a story about some idiot he met that knew nothing.

From an employer's standpoint, it is almost impossible to hire anyone that is any good. There are tons of people out there that have no business being around a computer or a network, but they had social skills and an easy to get cert or two so they got the job. These people cost companies a lot of money.

Unless you are lucky enough to have someone like me that can grill applicants, you are taking a gamble on everyone you hire. You had to take quite a few gambles to somehow end up with someone competent in the first place.

I would love for there to be some sort of professional oversight board for our profession and a little regulation. Something as simple as a license that can be reviewed and taken away would go a long way.

What requirement are you thinking of?

Your employer may have some requirement, like 20 years experience with Windows Vista but that doesn't mean your job requires a license or qualification. CompUSA used to require A+ certification to work there as a tech, but you won't get arrested for working on a computer without a LOL+ certification.

Plumbers, electricions, hairdressers, lawyers, etc have to go through some stuff to be able to do their job.

My job requires several certs and many years of experience in my area or you don't even get the interview. Once you get to THAT point, you get flat GRILLED by 3 of your possible future peers on many scenarios. It's not easy. And that's because if we screw up, people's lives are in danger. You don't hire somebody you THINK might do a good job because he runs his own WoW server at home or because he's got a penguin tattoo. You hire somebody that can do it on paper, do it in practice, and do it without having to scratch his head for 3 hours trying to figure out a problem.

While I don't defend the practice of requiring it in hiring, it does serve as a generalized buffer of lazy people that just want a paycheck. Same as a degree requirement does. Having your MCSE/A /MCTS/CompTIA/Oracle 9i/whatever stupid cert or having your degree shows that you (as a possible employee) have the initiative and judgment to further your education in your chosen career field (or that you've even picked a "career") and the tenacity to finish it...That sort of ethic carries forwards into their work. And that's why all manner of jobs require a degree even when there's no bearing on the job itself. Is it a perfect system? No, but those worthless pieces of paper are usually a good overall barometer of a how a person will approach their job.

Just my opinion.

Lives may be on the line but someone who wants to cut hair has to go through more than you did.

Just saying.

Do you even belong to a professional organization?

I wouldn't belong to a "professional organization" unless it was required by law.

And not to detract from people that cut hair, but if somebody had to go through more than what I have to get where I am to cut hair, there would be no such thing as $10 haircuts.

Maybe you're talking about basic network troubleshooting or PC stuff or something, but the level at which I work is light years beyond that and it's not like anybody who's gets on Tom's Hardware for 6 months can do it.

I'm sure you are the best, just like everyone else who says they are the best. You are missing the point...

Maybe someone better with English than I am can explain the difference between requirements placed on a job or profession as opposed to requirements placed by an employer.

There are no requirements on the profession or industry as a whole.. We can't even agree on the right way to do things...

An example of something that bugs me (and I see it all of the time), okctalk.com violates rfc2870-2.5 and 2182 3.1 which isn't a big deal since no one would cry if it went down, but when you consider the reason behind those requirements and how vital they are..

Since there is nothing professional about our profession there would be no solid way to end any debate over what is right or wrong in that situation, which is good because okctalk.com is most likely an accomplice in dns amplification attacks and there might be some liability if that was actually wrong.

I'm sure you are the best, just like everyone else who says they are the best. You are missing the point...

Toadrax, I see where you're coming from, and I almost agree with you...

Professional "credentials" or "licenses" are nice in concept, but aside from the medical profession (and maybe the legal profession) I think such instruments serve the bureaucracy gods rather than the "can (s)he do the job" folks, which I believe is your goal.

I've been in the IT business for over 20 years now, and I've seen licensing and certifications come and go. The problem unique to IT is that drawing a proper boundary between the types of "professional practice" and the kinds of "licensing" or "certification" associated with is very hard to do. Does the network admin who has written a toolbox of his own utilities over the course of a career have to have "programmer" licensing? Does the developer who has a similar toolbox of networking utilities have to have a "network admin" license? Does the office admin who writes an Excel macro have to have a "programmer" cert? Maybe its an oversimplificaiton, but you get the point.

The flip side, however, is troublesome. I serve on an advisory committee for some of the local business schools that offer an IT curriculum, and the thread common among them is the notion that if you take a couple of classes in building a PC, and maybe with a text including some network configuration, you're on your way to an "entry level network admin" job. In a word, "yikes!" More than one of us on these boards have tried to explain "you are not getting an admin job for taking these classes - you might qualify as an account operator."

There's this notion in the business world that any off-the-street nabob could be whipped into network admin shape in no time, and that philosophy is prevalent about IT in many organizations - they do not respect IT as a profession - and in that vein, perhaps if we imposed more requirements on ourselves, that might change. Don't know.

If I thought such licensing would be used in the scope in which it were intended, I might be more supportive of the concept. However, seeing how things like that are used in the name of bureaucracy to prevent work from being done, methinks such a plan is one of those good intentions that, in reality, doesn't end up accomplish its desired goals.

I could go on a serious rant about this on a broader scale, but I won't :)

Toadrax,
Where do I get one of those LOL+ certs? :D

A system like electricians use with "apprentice" and "journeyman" -type levels, etc sounds interesting, but most IT people I've worked with have at least had to move up through lower-level jobs to get to the more challenging stuff. Sort of an unofficial apprenticeship.

You certainly don't get out of college or technical school and know everything. Most of the jobs I've held were a challenging at first because I didn't know everything, but you learn and grow. That's what keeps things interesting (at least for me). I can see the point if a newbie helpdesk-level person was applying for a network engineer position, but if you aren't expanding your abilities and knowlege, then IMO, you are being left behind.

I've been in the IT business for over 20 years now, and I've seen licensing and certifications come and go. The problem unique to IT is that drawing a proper boundary between the types of "professional practice" and the kinds of "licensing" or "certification" associated with is very hard to do.

Ya, I know it isn't easy.. and I don't have any good solutions on how to go about it. I would at least like some sort of professional board we could answer to when it comes to ethical issues.

One other thing that always cracks me up. It doesn't matter if we are simply taking a customers machine in to work on, working on their servers, or hosting offsite backups for them... the question always comes up one way or another, "How can we trust you with our data?"

No one ever likes the answer to that question, but people at least appreciate my straightforward response.


if you take a couple of classes in building a PC, and maybe with a text including some network configuration, you're on your way to an "entry level network admin" job.

When I was at UCO there were people in the programming classes who did not even own a computer... They never made it. The only people who did well when I was in school were the people who mostly knew everything before they entered. It just takes a lifetime to be anything beyond an operator.


I might be more supportive of the concept. However, seeing how things like that are used in the name of bureaucracy to prevent work from being done, methinks such a plan is one of those good intentions that, in reality, doesn't end up accomplish its desired goals.

I agree with that.


Toadrax,
Where do I get one of those LOL+ certs? :D

Paypal me $200 and I will print one up for ya.


You certainly don't get out of college or technical school and know everything. Most of the jobs I've held were a challenging at first because I didn't know everything, but you learn and grow.

Ya, I always tell my mom that I am a professional Googler.

Part of being good is hiding when you don't know something, Googling it overnight, and coming back with a plan. I'll ask a bunch of questions "So, what exactly are you trying to do here sir?", not give any firm answers "Well, that depends on a lot of things sir.", and having an escape plan and setting up any first appointment with a client to be brief "Sure, I can see you this afternoon at 2:00, but I have to be somewhere AT 3:00"

I think eventually colleges will offer a degree on how to use Google, because that is where it is at.