Berry Tramel has unloaded on, "message boards." If you have seen his video rant (and he pulls no punches) you know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, hopefully you can take a minute or two (it's a minute and 53 seconds I think) and watch:
Berry Tramel: On Message Boards (http://www.newsok.tv/?titleID=1659857642)

Wow.

He tries to make the argument that simply visiting message boards is some kind of horrible, terrible, disgusting thing to do. But Berry never defines a "message board." Is OKCTalk a "message board?" Yes, I think we would qualify in Berry's eyes. But wait, what about Berry Tramel's own blog (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel)? It allows for comments and his post on the OU cocaine hoax now has, as of this writing, 16 comments (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2008/07/10/hoax-man-seems-pitiful/#comments). Is that kind of give and take, back and forth....is that not a "message board?" And the difference, Berry, between a "message board" thread and a blog posting that allows for ongoing comments is - what exactly?

Tramel seems overly invested emotionally in this topic and I am truly wondering - why? What's up? And why the double-standard?

That dude has one sandy ******.


And the hair of a balding 50 year old woman.

The traditional media don't like "message board" and "Internet posters" because they cannot control the content. The same thing is happening to political journalism. The 'blogs are revolutionizing the way people receive and disseminate information.

Berry's rant is not unlike Steve's rant against OKC Talk in a column earlier this year. They feel threatened by it, whether they would admit that or not. And they belittle it because they perceive it as a threat to their power.

They also don't like being called on what they write -- despite their suggestion that they welcome "letters to the editor." I've written several such letters to the Oklahoman and never had one published, regardless or how persuasive or well written it was. I did once receive a strange reply from Jim Standard (who is no longer with the paper) questioning my views. That's as close as I've been to having anything published in the "Ok."

Now, I like Steve and generally like his columns, so I'm not picking on him, but I haven't forgotten him describing us as a bunch of conspiracy nuts for criticizing Urban Renewal.

You know, Berry Tramel really pisses me off. The guy's not really that smart, despite being a very good writer. He really isn't that perceptive or intelligent. Yet, he feels that his opinion is relevant -- and in many ways, more important -- than average folks like us who post our opinions on a message board.

I used to buy the "gatekeeper" crap, and I too feared the unruly chaos of the Internet for information. But what I've learned is that sensibly moderated message boards, like this one, are self regulating. If you post bull****, you're going to be called on it. The difference with Berry Tramel is he doesn't like being called on his bull**** by anyone.

You know, Berry Tramel really pisses me off. The guy's not really that smart, despite being a very good writer. He really isn't that perceptive or intelligent. Yet, he feels that his opinion is relevant -- and in many ways, more important -- than average folks like us who post our opinions on a message board.

I used to buy the "gatekeeper" crap, and I too feared the unruly chaos of the Internet for information. But what I've learned is that sensibly moderated message boards, like this one, are self regulating. If you post bull****, you're going to be called on it. The difference with Berry Tramel is he doesn't like being called on his bull**** by anyone.

Bingo. I agree with you.

People like him just make us look backwater and retarded, whoever lets him post that trash needs to fix this.

Tramel's jumped off the cliff on this one.

Steve, according to Berry, you're part of the problem! :dizzy: Better hide, quick! :sofa:

I do think that lots of people misuse their anonymity and say things they wouldn't if they knew they were known, but that's another topic.

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.

Berry Tramel has unloaded on, "message boards." If you have seen his video rant (and he pulls no punches) you know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, hopefully you can take a minute or two (it's a minute and 53 seconds I think) and watch:
Berry Tramel: On Message Boards (http://www.newsok.tv/?titleID=1659857642)

Wow.

He tries to make the argument that simply visiting message boards is some kind of horrible, terrible, disgusting thing to do. But Berry never defines a "message board." Is OKCTalk a "message board?" Yes, I think we would qualify in Berry's eyes. But wait, what about Berry Tramel's own blog (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel)? It allows for comments and his post on the OU cocaine hoax now has, as of this writing, 16 comments (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2008/07/10/hoax-man-seems-pitiful/#comments). Is that kind of give and take, back and forth....is that not a "message board?" And the difference, Berry, between a "message board" thread and a blog posting that allows for ongoing comments is - what exactly?

Tramel seems overly invested emotionally in this topic and I am truly wondering - why? What's up? And why the double-standard?
Thanks for the link to his "comments", solitude. I've just left mine there: Hoax man seems pitiful (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2008/07/10/hoax-man-seems-pitiful/#comments)

Listen, a lot of people in this town would be blacklisted or lose their jobs if their opinions were known. I know of people who have lost business in OKC for supporting Barack Obama, as bizarre and third world as that seems.

As long as you're not posting slanderous or inaccurate information, who cares if you're anonymous.

If you're a journalist who appears on radio daily, shows up on sports wrapup shows on TV, and writes a daily column in the largest newspaper in the state, you're a public figure, and, like it not, you're a target for "message board" writers and their anonymous opinions.

As Berry himself would say, "....comes with the territory." Note, he says that about 19 year old college quarterbacks who are ripped from stem to stern by other idiot sportswriters like himself. (Tramel's not an idiot, but the friend he defends, Jim Trabor, is.)

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.
My point, toadrax, is that anonymity gives some the notion that they have no responsibility for what they say and use anonymity as a mask. I'm not saying that everyone does that, but many do. And, as I said, that's another topic than was raised by Tramel's unwise video.

Tramel's story..


We tracked down Conradt as the culprit. I don’t know how they did it, but I guess you can find out most anything. Anyway,

How did they track down Conradt? How do we know for a fact it is him.. if he doesn't know how it was tracked down he is just as irresponsible for perpetuating that it is him.

He is accepting something as fact that he doesn't know to be a fact.

I'm not going to get into a flame war here or defend or attack Berry's commentary. But it's inaccurate to describe the column I wrote as an indictment of everyone on this board as a conspiracy theorist. And if you look at my profile, one will see I've been a member of OKCTalk, through good times and bad times, since early on. I sincerely welcome criticism of my reporting and writing - such critiques often make for a better journalist.
I have no problem admitting I get good story ideas from this site and it provides me a good insight into what people are interested in. I'm going to restate the basic premise of that column and I'm not going to get into it any further - these message boards represent the community as a whole: leaders, activists and volunteers emerge and get a voice where in public they might not. But the ability to disguise one's identity also encourages the conspiracy theorists to hurl accusations and make unsubstantiated attacks without any accountability.
But all of this does beg the question: is there any value left to having full-time journalists who specialize in various topics being the chief source of news versus simply getting the day's news from blogs and message boards? (I will be the first to admit, btw, that my daily reading consists of the Oklahoman, Tulsa World, Journal Record, a scan of the Wall Street Journal, Drudge, OKCTalk, OKMet, Dustbury, DougDawg and some site that seems to have "issues" with Wimgo and Dave Morris).
OK Doug, I'm going to duck under that couch now....

I do think that lots of people misuse their anonymity and say things they wouldn't if they knew they were known, but that's another topic.
i know spartan is a fan of tramel, but i dislike him. (however i still read him... dammit)

but yeah, i really hate when people hide behind internet screenames. i like to live my life as an open book.
i would put my myspace and facebook addys as my sig... but i haven't been able to figure out how to on this forum. are only the people who paid money able to? i've been all over the user cp to no avail.
perhaps someone smarter than i will have mercy on me and help a cracker out.

btw steve, you're my favorite journalist. i wish we had been a little more patient that day at mcnellies. i'm sure we'll meet someday.

Thanks for the link to his "comments", solitude. I've just left mine there: Hoax man seems pitiful (http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2008/07/10/hoax-man-seems-pitiful/#comments)

Excellent comment!

Honestly, I see the problems with anonymity and its misuse on the Internet. I read a book called, The Cult of the Amateur (http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Amateur-MySpace-user-generated-destroying/dp/0385520816/)by Andrew Keen and he made some excellent points. Of course, even back in the days when 'letters to the editor' were a prime place for the public soapbox, newspapers respected anonymity by printing letters signed "name withheld." But, as you said Doug, that's a whole other issue. That was a great comment!

Thanks Ed. Doug can vouch for how my reporting gig can make a mockery out any attempt to be on time for pretty much anything. And yes, I look forward to meeting you as well.

I've got news for you guys - some of you are conspiracy nuts.

I, too, took issue with Steve at the time of the column. Could things have been phrased differently? Maybe. Maybe not. At any rate, Steve has proven (to me at least) that he's not a 'fair weather friend,' of OKCTalk as he took the heat and didn't run from this board when we all exploded at once. He stayed, we personally shared a couple of PM's (I was really overheated on the board) - and that's that. In the past. He's an excellent journalist writing on topics many of us find of interest. Even his blog is on my RSS feed as I find it supplements his articles well. I consider him a great member of the community and, in my opinion, we're lucky to have him in Oklahoma City.

Welcome to the new world Barry, problem is most in the media seem to think they are the only people that speak the truth.

At one time I may have agreed with that to some extent, but today we have to put up with those in the media that don't check their sources(radio stations in Houston are a good recent example), and pass off their opinions as being truth. So to some extent they have become no better then the message boards they indite.

What message boards do provide is a means for people with differing ideas to give their opinions on the stories or events that effect us as a community. Sure, as with any medium there is an element that uses it for their own sick agenda. But I would sure rather they go on a message board, then to go out and do something tragic, that we would surely see on the news. For the most part people are pretty good at policing what is said on message boards.

Most people on message boards are good, honest, hard working people that want to have their opinions heard, and may be hear the other side, when they are open debate. If you believe everything you see on TV, hear on the radio, read in the newspaper, or read on line, then you have limited yourself and diminished yourself.

When people cross the line, it's not hard to track them down like this Conradt guy in Houston, and they need to drop the hammer on them. If you don't want someone to find out what you are doing or what you are writing, don't do it online, Clay Bennett and friends will attest to that.....

When people cross the line, it's not hard to track them down like this Conradt guy in Houston, and they need to drop the hammer on them.

hey sabe... i believe he was from nebraska, but the radio stations in austin and houston were too happy to report this and jumped the gun.

People like him just make us look backwater and retarded, whoever lets him post that trash needs to fix this.

Man I keep reading that phrase over and over on this board. Is "backwater and retarded" some kind of unique put-down that people hold over okies? I'm really not concerned with what people outside of Oklahoma think about me or my compadres. I have a little more self esteem than that.

I am concerned that Berry thinks that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. That's troublesome.

Listen, a lot of people in this town would be blacklisted or lose their jobs if their opinions were known. I know of people who have lost business in OKC for supporting Barack Obama, as bizarre and third world as that seems.

Wow, I'd love to see your concrete evidence on that claim.

hey sabe... i believe he was from nebraska, but the radio stations in austin and houston were too happy to report this and jumped the gun.

He was from Nebraska, but he works for the University of Texas.

Bullfeathers! ha.. that's classic.. ugh, Berry Tramel

Message boards aren't the problem. It's the stupidity of some of the posters.

I like the above comments on the anonymity of the internet and how it enables people to act in ways they never would otherwise and say/write things they never would face to face.

I've read message boards on news media across the country and cringe to read some of the comments left.

It has been an issue with me for years because it disturbs me how people can insult, offend, hurt and humiliate others all behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity.

It's so easy to be mean or a bully behind a computer screen.

I've seen posters take on imaginary lives, personas and claim to be famous public figures, all because they thought they could and wouldn't be discovered. I find it so pathetic.

And, it can be a very dangerous game.. as this person who accused the players of cocaine use, will soon find out.

One thing I don't think people understand.. you can always be tracked.. you can always be found. Some people are just too stupid to realize it.

I saw this video yesterday and didn't think to post it.

"backwater and retarded"
mmmm... the type of girls i like to get with!
oakleehomeuh, yeah!

I like the above comments on the anonymity of the internet and how it enables people to act in ways they never would otherwise and say/write things they never would face to face.

I've read message boards on news media across the country and cringe to read some of the comments left.

It has been an issue with me for years because it disturbs me how people can insult, offend, hurt and humiliate others all behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity.

It's so easy to be mean or a bully behind a computer screen.

I've seen posters take on imaginary lives, personas and claim to be famous public figures, all because they thought they could and wouldn't be discovered. I find it so pathetic.



So.....what's the solution? Anybody could use any name to sign-up for a message board anyway. I know I've never used MY real name to sign-up for anything on the Internet. (Including here.) You have to weigh privacy and security issues.

I don't know how you could get people to attach their real names to message boards - and somehow verify it. You wouldn't want that anyway. We don't need an even bigger police state.

And think about recent history here at OKCTalk.............remember David Glover?

A pseudonym allows for straight talk that you might not otherwise give due to job or business status. I fail to understand how people don't understand this. Yes, it has the potential for abuse, but the difference between Karried and solitude on a message board, Oh GAWD the Smell or David Glover.....what's the difference? I'll tell you the difference: when you take unpopular positions using your real name, it can cost you. Look at the abuse David Glover took here. Had he done all of his postings as "AngryAtCorporateWelfare" he wouldn't have subjected himself to all the ridicule. Posters had a face with the name. He spoke at Council meetings, etc. Using his real name here just put him in search engines where anybody can now look him up and find people calling him every name under the sun. That looks great to a future employer! It very well could jeopardize future business and/or job opportunities for him in Oklahoma City. Just because he took a stand on a political issue! His house details were even posted here! That wouldn't have happened using a pseudonym.

There's two sides to every coin.

^^^win

Edit: It is only smart to keep your real name hidden when you are online. Everything you say can be used against you later, even used out of context.

My suggestion:
ANT 14DBI Patch Panel (http://www.01digitalstreet.com/servlet/the-57309/ANT-14DBI-Patch-Panel/Detail) (best money I ever spent)

My issue isn't with people disclosing their real names.. that's usually not a great idea for a lot of reasons, especially if you plan on making comments that will come back to haunt you..

My issue is with people saying things online that they wouldn't say offline in public or to someone's face and hiding behind a psuedonym. That's cowardly.

David Glover isn't a villian.. he stood up for what he believed in. he wasn't insulting, racist, cruel or demeaning. I see no reason why an employer wouldn't want to hire him.. he at least, took a stand for something. True, it wasn't popular for us NBA fans, but there is no shame in standing up for what one believes in. I doubt there has been a backlash personally for him because of this message board.

ya know what... i don't agree with david glover in any way, but i respect him. he takes a stand for what he believes and takes the fall regardless of the consequences. many times i am at odds with solitude or metro, but i don't have the respect for them that i do have for david... because there is no website or real name for those guys.
i am a hardcore conservative and most of the people i perform for are liberals... but i will take a stand for what i believe in, even if it costs me gigs. i arguew with people on dallas dance music all day about politics... but i'm still a legendary dj in dallas and i still get booked. i'm sure it has cost me some bookings; but i think people can get past that. i may argue all night and day with someone, but i still treat them as an dear friend in person.
if i say something that pisses someone off... it's not hard to find me. if you want to call me out in public or even take a swing at me... you can do it.
i'm at the electro lounge every wednesday, venu every thursday and prowling around the hipster triangle (barmuda [50th n classen circle])every weekend.

i hate internet p!ssies....

i'm gonna go to an after party and sober up now.

thank you and God bless.

David Glover isn't a villian.. he stood up for what he believed in. he wasn't insulting, racist, cruel or demeaning. I see no reason why an employer wouldn't want to hire him.. he at least, took a stand for something. True, it wasn't popular for us NBA fans, but there is no shame in standing up for what one believes in. I doubt there has been a backlash personally for him because of this message board.

Who knows? I felt is was a lynch mob. His taking a stand wasn't the issue - it was the downright personal attacks he received for taking it. This is a conservative city and people who see a person is not well-liked (even ridiculed) for their <shudder> liberal </shudder> political beliefs might want to take a step back from that person as a possible employee or business associate. It's cruel, it's third-world like, but it happens. The people here treated him like he was some kind of alien. I remember at the time thinking it took guts to come on this forum with his real name. I still do. He obviously felt he could do that. However.....Some of us cannot.

It's not that we can't use real names because we're "Internet pussies" (the "famous" edcrunk's term), but because we have families to raise in Oklahoma City, value our associations, etc. However, some of our stands are extremely controversial - but we feel they still need to be heard! And Ed, I'm not talking about which DJ plays the best dance mixes and jeopardizing your position as a "legendary" club jock in Dallas (again Ed's own description) --- I'm talking about stands regarding public agencies, commissions, etc. that means stepping on some very big toes. The only real difficulties I could see for you, Ed, in using your real name (Smith, right?) is if you exposed all the names involved in the drug deals that go down - in droves - at these wonderful palaces of the underground music scene. Chances are, you won't be spilling any names using your real name or otherwise - so you're probably safe using whatever name you want. Though, Ed Crunk isn't your real name according to MySpace. See the problem when you put your name out there and leave a trail? You really should give it some thought.

Again, two sides to every coin.

But this thread is supposed to be about message boards in general and Berry Tramel saying that if we visit them "we're part of the problem." For years E.K. Gaylord and Ed Gaylord had a near monopoly on published opinion in this city. That's not true anymore and it's got a lot of old-timers at The Oklahoman terribly worried. I think Berry's been listening to them and working himself up into an anxious state over something where's there's no turning back. The monopoly is over.

Real name isn't an issue when you stay real. Popular or unpopular, if you are who you are in your views, then it doesn't matter whether you splay yourself out with the name momma gave ya or slip on a different tagline, though I for one am glad no one posts under the name thundercatbaronenergybisonsoncrackstampedingthepra irietrammelingsurreyswithfringeontop.

I guess that it's my fault for even bringing up the anonymity issue up in the 1st place thereby diverting the thread from the main point about which we all apparently agree (Tramel's video). But, since we're talking about the sub-topic now, I'll add a couple of related observations.

1st, about David Glover. I'm pretty sure that I've said this before, but just in case I haven't, one thing that I do have for David is respect for identifying himself and for advocating what he considered to be a worthy position. I continue to regard some of his arguments baseless and often misleading, but, as a person, he has my respect. More, I met him face to face a couple of times when our paths crossed during the March 4 Vote campaign ...

... here at Cafe do Brazil ... that's David at the left ...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/NBA/urbanneighbors_2_21_08_3s.jpg

... and at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/NBA/tobykeiths_2_23_08_9s.jpg

... whoops, wrong David (I plead the time-honored legal defense of temporary wishful thinking) ...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/NBA/tobykeiths_2_23_08_10s.jpg

... and I have confidence in my opinion that he is a nice and very decent human being -- which I could not have said with such assurance had I not met him personally. As far as the matter then at hand, I had no greater success in persuading him than he did me (of course). It turned out that I even know his mother, for god's sake, and I'm glad to have met him.

2nd, about anonymity abuse. For those of you who followed the NBA in the Hornets 1st year here (may have been the 2nd, though, my memory isn't sure), you probably know (because even if you didn't see it I've talked about it before) that some fellow set up a MySpace account using all of my personal information down to date of birth and photo from my regular website. The bogus web page contained outrageous information about me (at least some of which was untrue ;) ). When learning about this, I complained to MySpace and after a 2 or 3 days, it was removed. I came to learn that this guy was bragging and laughing about his coup in a semi-private area at Hornets Report dot com to which only owners, mods, and trusted friendlies were allowed access. Although many there thought that was a hoot, at least a couple of guys objected to what he had done. The impostor was from Washington, not New Orleans, I'm told. Rather than disciplining the guy, the objectors themselves lost their access privilege to the area and were ultimately banned from the website.

So, while I can see that legitimate points are made concerning the value of anonymity, I am unfortunately in a position to be able to personally attest to its dark side, as well. And, in this example, it wasn't just "one," it was the "many" who owned that talk forum and who provided him safe harbor and happily so.

But, were I to begin anew "on the internet," I'd do nothing different. That's just how I feel about it. Had I masked who I am, I'd not have gotten to meet some really great people who not only have helped me with blog content in several articles but with whom I have formed some great friendships which are personally valuable to me. Too, I'd probably not have been invited to attend and photograph at least a few events at which I'd otherwise have had no place at the table, so to speak.

Each member of the internet community has to make his/her own call about wearing masks and I don't disrespect those who take that path. After all, V for Vendetta is one of my all-time favorite movies! For a time, I used it as part of my tag-line at Hornets Central, with some modification: Remember remember the 1st of November! But, those who, like David Glover, don't wear one gain my special respect in this digital universe in which we all fly around, literally, bit by bit.

2nd, about anonymity abuse. For those of you who followed the NBA in the Hornets 1st year here (may have been the 2nd, though, my memory isn't sure), you probably know (because even if you didn't see it I've talked about it before) that some fellow set up a MySpace account using all of my personal information down to date of birth and photo from my regular website. The bogus web page contained outrageous information about me (at least some of which was untrue ;) ). When learning about this, I complained to MySpace and after a 2 or 3 days, it was removed. I came to learn that this guy was bragging and laughing about his coup in a semi-private area at Hornets Report dot com to which only owners, mods, and trusted friendlies were allowed access. Although many there thought that was a hoot, at least a couple of guys objected to what he had done. The impostor was from Washington, not New Orleans, I'm told. Rather than disciplining the guy, the objectors themselves lost their access privilege to the area and were ultimately banned from the website.

So, while I can see that legitimate points are made concerning the value of anonymity, I am unfortunately in a position to be able to personally attest to its dark side, as well. And, in this example, it wasn't just "one," it was the "many" who owned that talk forum and who provided him safe harbor and happily so.



Doug, Actually you just pointed out the two coins of anonymity in your post. There is the accountability and responsibility that comes with signing your real name on the Internet; and then there's the misuse of your personal information. Why did it happen? Because the Internet is a crazy unregulated place (as it should be) and you used your real name - and got burned! It's wrong, it's sick and it's hard to stomach when you see it happen to good people like you - but what happened to you is a big reason many of us don't give out our personal information on the Internet to anybody for any reason. Ever.

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.

I agree with you on this. If they questioned it at all, they could have verified the validity in just a couple of minutes.

Doug, Actually you just pointed out the two coins of anonymity in your post. There is the accountability and responsibility that comes with signing your real name on the Internet; and then there's the misuse of your personal information. Why did it happen? Because the Internet is a crazy unregulated place (as it should be) and you used your real name - and got burned! It's wrong, it's sick and it's hard to stomach when you see it happen to good people like you - but what happened to you is a big reason many of us don't give out our personal information on the Internet to anybody for any reason. Ever.
True enough. But, as I said, I'd not do anything differently ... heck, I might even wear that fake MySpace account as a badge of honor! The "fire" wasn't that hot and it surely didn't hurt me any, at least as far as I know. And without the non-anonymity, I'd not have had the positives, so there you go!

And without the non-anonymity, I'd not have had the positives, so there you go!

Very true - and there are a lot of those! Newbies to OKCTalk who haven't visited Doug Dawg's blog (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/)need to make it their next stop. You really do a fabulous job with it, Doug.

Some of us cannot.

It's not that we can't use real names because we're "Internet pussies" (the "famous" edcrunk's term),


infamous would be more appropriate. =-]

heh, i'm not shy about touting my credentials when i'm three sheets to the wind.

my bad, bro.


but because we have families to raise in Oklahoma City, value our associations, etc. However, some of our stands are extremely controversial - but we feel they still need to be heard! And Ed, I'm not talking about which DJ plays the best dance mixes and jeopardizing your position as a "legendary" club jock in Dallas (again Ed's own description)
btw, that is not self ascribed... it's what i hear everytime i'm back in dallas. it's also been on flyers when i'm booked there.

--- I'm talking about stands regarding public agencies, commissions, etc. that means stepping on some very big toes. The only real difficulties I could see for you, Ed, in using your real name (Smith, right?) is if you exposed all the names involved in the drug deals that go down - in droves - at these wonderful palaces of the underground music scene. Chances are, you won't be spilling any names using your real name or otherwise - so you're probably safe using whatever name you want. Though, Ed Crunk isn't your real name according to MySpace. See the problem when you put your name out there and leave a trail? You really should give it some thought.[/B]

well, i'm on the verge of opening another club and the stands i take can affect whether or not my business thrives. so thousands of dollars and my livelyhood is on the line (not to mention the fact that i need a new ACURA RL).

i don't see the problem with putting my name out there.
my real name is JAMES EDWARD SMITH. i live at nw 25th and douglas (asian district... wewt wewt!). during the day... i work at TARGET at 50th and north may. every wednesday i am at ELECTRO LOUNGE and at VENU every thursday. if one would want to spit in my face, debate whether or not obama is d*bag or even discuss the fact that on the internet i can be an arrogant son of a bitch and should be more humble... you can! i'd buy you a beer and we'd hash things out.

well buddy, perhaps you should hang out with my crowd... since i'm the only conservative i know (besides christina fallon... mary's daughter). just fyi... the business i'm in is uber competitive and i've seen soooo many dj's and clubs fall to the wayside. it's even harder when you take a stand for something many of your clientele and patrons are totally against.
i guess my point is that if one has cahoonas, integrity and grit... one can overcome extraordinary obstacles and become a legendary figure or a Godfather of a scene / group of people whom doesn't adhere to the same values.
have i lost gigs due to me being vocal... yes. have i lost a few friends that hate that i'm conservative... yes.

let me state this... if blacks had the internet in the 60's and hid behind names like BLACK PANTHER or SOLID BROTHAH and lobbied for their rights... would they be where they are today?
did speaking out for what they believe in and against injustice affect their families and their jobs... HELL YEAH IT DID! CLARA LUPER is a name blacks (and many other colors of people) hold dear in oklahoma as a LEGEND. i'm sure many black folks are happy she didn't count the cost when she led sit ins in okc.

so yeah, i do respect you solitude... you are steadfast and grounded in what you believe. however, i respect DAVID GLOVER more for sticking his neck out there.

my apologies for drunken posting last night... a house warming party's open bar got the best of me.

God bless you bro,
JAMES EDWARD SMITH


MySpace.com - 3DW@RD!CU$$ [crunktronic] - 36 - Male - OKLAHOMA CITY [four oh five], OKLAHOMA - www.myspace.com/edcrunk (http://www.myspace.com/edcrunk)

Tramel's video is over the top in my opinion. as for the anonymity I see it both ways. Doug Dawg has a fun and very interesting blog, thanks for linking it here. I will have to go spend some time there for sure!

Yeah he pretty much lost me at bullfeathers.

Steve, why are writers across-the-board at The Oklahoman (present company excluded of course) so fond of printing wacky small-town colloquialisms? Is it a pre-requirement of employment? Something in the Muzak there at the Dark Tower?

Tramel makes a valid point in my opinion.

There seems to me to be a kind of repetitious life cycle to forums: Someone has an idea and creates a forum. Others who are similarly interested join and participate. If there is some success then trolls are attracted. Then there is a period of agenda pushing that becomes pretty widespread among the population. Things spiral out of control. People leave. Someone usually asserts order and discipline is restored and the forum is refocused with fewer people back to topic. Then it repeats.

I see nothing wrong with forums if they are well kept. I think it is the responsibility of the forum management to insure discipline. In my experience there is a tendency to be too lax in enforcing the rules. There is also a responsibility on individuals to refrain from feeding trolls and pushing private agendas unrelated to the forum purpose and to try to be civil. There is also an individual responsibility to leave if a forum is not well tended I think.

Getting back to the University of Texas employee making the fake news story about OU players. The problem is not that forums don't live up to reputable news standards, it is that reputable news outlets sink to forum standards. When a person posts on a forum they are directing those comments to other people participating in the forum. A news outlet broadcast their message to a much wider and diverse population and hence, their responsibility to ensure accuracy should be held to higher standard - it doesn't matter if it is Jason Blair at the New York Times or some dumbass sports radio guy in Austin.

Take the Sonics situation as an example. I spent a lot of time reading news stories, listening to sports radio in OKC and Seattle, and pouring through pages of legal documents, deposition, and court filings. I can say without a doubt not one single news "reporter" in Seattle or OKC could get anything correct down to the simplest fact. The reporters in Seattle seemed only interested in selling newspapers to Seattle Sonics fans and for the most part OKC based media seemed uninterested. The Sports Animal spent more time on Tiger Woods then they did on the Sonics. National programs have people like Lester Munson spouting nonsense and who I have concluded is dumber than a bag of rocks.

I have almost stopped listening to all news casts because it doesn't matter what the subject is, I typically know more than the person in front of the camera, even if I don't know anything.

It is like during the democratic party primary, I don't think any of the news outlets had accurate delegate counts the entire time.

Obama had been in the lead for months before the media even noticed.

They never read the rules, and only the 10 people on the Internet that did understood what was going on.

Traditional news is a failure and has no place anymore. Only on the Internet we can verify stuff for ourselves and ask questions from real experts on subjects.

All I can tell you is that I've been accused of using the words "historic" and "landmark" once too often. I'm seeking counseling for this literary vice of mine.
;)


Yeah he pretty much lost me at bullfeathers.

Steve, why are writers across-the-board at The Oklahoman (present company excluded of course) so fond of printing wacky small-town colloquialisms? Is it a pre-requirement of employment? Something in the Muzak there at the Dark Tower?

I wouldn't listen to Barry Tramel. He's just another cog in the wheel at the Joklahoman.

infamous would be more appropriate. =-]

heh, i'm not shy about touting my credentials when i'm three sheets to the wind.

my bad, bro.


btw, that is not self ascribed... it's what i hear everytime i'm back in dallas. it's also been on flyers when i'm booked there.


well, i'm on the verge of opening another club and the stands i take can affect whether or not my business thrives. so thousands of dollars and my livelyhood is on the line (not to mention the fact that i need a new ACURA RL).

i don't see the problem with putting my name out there.
my real name is JAMES EDWARD SMITH. i live at nw 25th and douglas (asian district... wewt wewt!). during the day... i work at TARGET at 50th and north may. every wednesday i am at ELECTRO LOUNGE and at VENU every thursday. if one would want to spit in my face, debate whether or not obama is d*bag or even discuss the fact that on the internet i can be an arrogant son of a bitch and should be more humble... you can! i'd buy you a beer and we'd hash things out.

well buddy, perhaps you should hang out with my crowd... since i'm the only conservative i know (besides christina fallon... mary's daughter). just fyi... the business i'm in is uber competitive and i've seen soooo many dj's and clubs fall to the wayside. it's even harder when you take a stand for something many of your clientele and patrons are totally against.
i guess my point is that if one has cahoonas, integrity and grit... one can overcome extraordinary obstacles and become a legendary figure or a Godfather of a scene / group of people whom doesn't adhere to the same values.
have i lost gigs due to me being vocal... yes. have i lost a few friends that hate that i'm conservative... yes.

let me state this... if blacks had the internet in the 60's and hid behind names like BLACK PANTHER or SOLID BROTHAH and lobbied for their rights... would they be where they are today?
did speaking out for what they believe in and against injustice affect their families and their jobs... HELL YEAH IT DID! CLARA LUPER is a name blacks (and many other colors of people) hold dear in oklahoma as a LEGEND. i'm sure many black folks are happy she didn't count the cost when she led sit ins in okc.

so yeah, i do respect you solitude... you are steadfast and grounded in what you believe. however, i respect DAVID GLOVER more for sticking his neck out there.

my apologies for drunken posting last night... a house warming party's open bar got the best of me.

God bless you bro,
JAMES EDWARD SMITH


MySpace.com - 3DW@RD!CU$$ [crunktronic] - 36 - Male - OKLAHOMA CITY [four oh five], OKLAHOMA - www.myspace.com/edcrunk (http://www.myspace.com/edcrunk)

LOL.
Ed, I love you.

Guys, I've known Ed for a long long long ...ok, I'm old....long time. He has never been afraid to speak his mind, and has always been respected for it. Well, by most. :) He's pretty darn good at what he does too. He's not quite as feisty and outspoken as I am though. He likes a good debate, but he usually is pretty adult about it. Guess those all nighters with liquor have weird affects on people. Imagine that. I wouldn't know, I don't drink. ;)

"Message boards have no more value than porn."

"If you are on a message board, you're part of the problem. Get off."


Nothing like simplistic sweeping generalizations and mass categorization. Sure is a lot easier than meaningful analysis and insight.

It's like saying all the Oklahoma media are ignorant rednecks with third-rate journalism degrees. And I'm sure many would draw that conclusion if they watched Mr. Tramel's rant.

Of course, there is an element of truth in what he says. People often do get too carried away and there is almost no accountability. But there are reasons this medium has exploded and Berry comes off as someone very out of touch and threatened by the changing world.

How hard is it just to ignore the stuff that is a bit crazy and over the top? Is it that hard to discern between information and interesting discussion (and there is plenty of both) and trolls and trouble-makers?

The bottom line is the old way of information being control by a very small group of people has long passed and many established 'journalists' don't like it. If you think about it, when was the last time Berry Tramel reported something that anyone interested didn't already know? I'm a huge fan of local sports and I can't think of one such incident.

What's happened is that information gets out by all kinds of different means and those that like to hold them out as professionals are placed more in the position of repackaging those stories and making commentary on them.

But according to Mr.Tramel he and his ilk are the only ones qualified to do that.


I did want to say that it's one of the reasons I admire Steve Lackmeyer, because he's embraced New Media. That's a very wise choice as it clearly makes him better at his job and more relevant as a journalist in a changing world.

I've got news for you guys - some of you are conspiracy nuts.

One of the best quotes I've seen on here in a long time.

Then it was followed by this:


I am concerned that Berry thinks that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. That's troublesome.

Priceless. :kicking:

Somebody needs to tell the man to use his inside voice!

I just think it's funny that his name is Berry, not Barry. I just noticed that recently.

Somebody needs to tell the man to use his inside voice!

hey, just get a few drinks in me and i'll do it!

Berry's rant reminds me of former OSU defensive coordinator Bill Clay's rant against OSU message boards. Fans were posting their extreme dislike for his coaching. It was pretty funny. I wish I could find that article.

I'm sure one of the reasons Tramel hates message boards is because when he writes something controversial -- or even incorrect -- it gets posted and then he gets an avalanche of email.

I remember one such incident where he simply had his facts wrong and I did a quick bit of research and emailed it to him. He wrote back but never acknowledged he had been wrong.

Traditional journalists are now more accountable because information and discussion flows freely through the Internet and I bet most of those that have been in the business for a while long for the days when they only had to deal with letters to the editor, which were filtered by their own publisher.

I see the same thing with the mainstream national media. One thing I learned during the primary is that the monetary value of portraying a "close" race trumps everything. Even if one candidate had a numerical lock on the nomination, it was more important for the "pundits" to keep the suspense alive.

I blame TV for this more than print journalists. But what has become clear is that print media -- other than the NY Times -- has very little import on the news narrative. The unfolding abortion of TV news talk shows is truly a brainrotting affair.

I've noticed the quality of Tramel's coverage decline as he has become more and more involved with radio shows and TV. Jim Traber is the sports radio version of Howard Stern or Bill O'Reilly. And now Tramel wallows in the same playing field as Traber. And he's concerned with what anonymous average Joes posit on the Internet?

I love that we have a (theoretically) free press in this country. Such a shame that the likes of Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, Paula Zahn and other cornflakes -- by dint of their profession -- are allowed to drive the narrative.

If it weren't for the Internet, we would all be wearing leg irons.

Tramel's insights aren't particularly penetrating, but his institutional arrogance blinds him from recognizing how wonderful -- and transformative -- this truly democratized medium is.

It's wrong to use a message board because it's anonymous, but it's perfectly acceptable to call in to a sports radio show under the cloak of mystery? Okay. I guess it's okay as long as his employer and its sponsors benefits. He also mentions the contributing factor people play because they're watching something unfold on a messageboard, similar to the riots you can encounter during the Total Dominance Hour, which are based more on pompous opinions than fact.

With the exception of the Morning Animals, I don't even listen to the Sports Animal. Seriously, it's most mind-numbing thing on the planet. Next time you tune in to the Sports Animal, really listen and take in what's being said.

Traber: How do you think ____________ will do this season?
Trammel: I think they'll do well.
Traber: I agree.
Eischbach: I disagree.
Traber: Okay, what are your thoughts on _______?

...on and on about the speculation of what "will" happen.

Then after a game...

Trammel: What are your thoughts on the game?
Traber: I thought _______ didn't play well.
Eischbach: I think they need to improve on ___________.
Traber: I agree, they need to improve.
Trammel: I disagree.

Come on, give me a freakin' break! I love sports. Believe me, I LOOOOOVVVVVEEEE watching sports. I just don't love sports enough to listen to people talk about sports, what they think will happen in an upcoming sports event, or what they think happened in past sports event. I don't need to listen to three people tell me their opinion when I can formulate my own. That's the thing with the Sports Animal.

All they do is talk about sports. Whatever happened to enjoying the actual game? Are we so obsessed with sports that we have to listen to someone's opinion of what they think will happen in the game? Does it really matter? Is it going to change the outcome of the game in any way? If you truly enjoy the game, good on you, but how is listening to someone's aftergame thoughts make the experience any better?

I enjoy talking sports with friends, but count me out on listening to others talk about sports. Talk about lame.

A typical conversation I forgot to mention:

Traber: Where are you Al?
Eischbach: I'm at _________, where are you?
Traber: I'm at _________ and the deals are great, what about you Trammel?
Trammel: I'm at __________ and someone just won on the _______ machine.

How about the stupid fake phones ringing in the background? That drives me nuts.

How about the stupid fake phones ringing in the background? That drives me nuts.

I thought those were the "winning" bells. I only hear them when they're at a casino.

Whenever Tram comes on at 440 I turn it to another station because some of the things he says are so far out there its not even funny.

The bottom line is that it would be beneficial for Tramel to step back, recognize that he is a mere human like the rest of us, and then actually write what he "knows" (or thinks that he does) and then differentiating between fact "knowledge" and "opinion" before he submits his stuff to print.

Does ANYONE here not remember the false reports/promises that Berry Tramel made about the Hornets staying here? All proved false, and all those reports got our twitterbangers into high gear, for nothing (other than an big time downer when they didn't pan out). Such reports also opened OKC (since he writes in our city) to some justly deserved measure of a lack of credibility if not scorn in other markets. Hje became some like a lightening rod in other markets ... and not to our credit or benefit at all. Others are much more deserving although they are less outspoken than the "Tram."

Now, to be sure, I enjoy reading his articles, by and large. But, if he thinks that he has some "status" beyond being a "mere" reporter as far as his recent video advocacy is concerned and then advising the rest of us what we should think and/or do concerning participating in forums such as this, all I can say is,

"Dream on, teenage queen."

I'm not gonna stop listening to him or reading his articles ... they are fun to read ... but I'm not about to increase the "credibility" factor that is involved when I do so. I'll not get into how uninspiring his videos at the Oklahoman are ... he should stick to print journalism, for sure.

Doug, I play with myself at night wishing for your skills with words.

You are amazing.