View Full Version : Quality of Life



mmonroe
06-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Do you guys feel that certain stores lower the quality of life in an area?

For example, do you think pawn shops, liquor stores or gun shops, lower the quality of life in an area.

LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZIDENT08
06-19-2008, 10:25 PM
They gotta go somehwere

blangtang
06-19-2008, 10:34 PM
i think those types of businesses are helpful to the people that frequent them.

quality of life is increased for the people who utilize such businesses.

preferences vary. YMMV :artist:

Karried
06-19-2008, 10:38 PM
For example, do you think pawn shops, liquor stores or gun shops, lower the quality of life in an area.


Are you kidding? I always need a good buzz before I buy a gun at the pawn shop and head to the shooting range ... lol

It all depends on how one defines quality of life I suppose.

Toadrax
06-19-2008, 10:54 PM
According to http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf The Econmist uses these nine factors to measure Quality of Life.

Health: Life expectancy at birth (in years.) Source: US Census Bureau

Family life: Divorce rate (per 1,000 population), converted into index of 1 (lowest divorce rates) to 5 (highest). Sources: UN; Euromonitor

Community life: Dummy variable taking value 1 if country has either high rate of church attendance or trade-union membership; zero otherwise. Source: World Values Survey

Material well being: GDP per person, at PPP in $. Source: Economist Intelligence Unit

Political stability and security: Political stability and security ratings. Source: Economist Intelligence Unit

Climate and geography: Latitude, to distinguish between warmer and colder climes. Source: CIA World Factbook

Job security: Unemployment rate (%.) Source: Economist Intelligence Unit

Political freedom: Average of indexes of political and civil liberties. Scale of 1 (completely free) to 7 (unfree). Source: Freedom House

Gender equality: measured using ratio of average male and female earnings. Source: UNDP Human Development Report

It is a multifaceted argument because you have to look at each type of store and consider its impact on each factor. If you notice though, the Economist puts more weight on Political freedom and civil liberties than it does on things like Health. I agree with that.

Who cares if you live to be 200 if you spent 200 years being oppressed and have no freedom?

andy157
06-19-2008, 10:59 PM
Are you kidding? I always need a good buzz before I buy a gun at the pawn shop and head to the shooting range ... lol

It all depends on how one defines quality of life I suppose.Your exactly right. Although to fully utilize these businesses to enhance ones quality of life, I suggest that you buy a gun, get buzzed, rob the pawn shop, then take the kids to Six Flags. Talk about your quality of life. Thats living.

mmonroe
06-19-2008, 11:01 PM
Well what i'm trying to get at is that I believe certain types of business' bring in certain types of people. To someone, a pawnshop may be a place to make a quick buck, while another sees it as a place to get things that you might not normally find in a thrift store. Some may see a liquor store as a place to get wine for a dinner, some see it as a place to get a fix. Gun shops, some see it as a responsible place to practice their shooting skills [i.e. officers and professional marksman.] and some may see it as an outlet to get a gun to hurt someone.

Toadrax
06-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Flip your argument around...

Would the quality of life be improved if those stores were removed?

We already know for a fact what happens when liquor stores are banned.

PennyQuilts
06-20-2008, 03:46 AM
All I know is that the parents of many of my clients who have substance abuse problems are in and out of the pawn shops selling junk (their junk and other people's junk) to buy drugs and that they are frequently so drugged up that they can't hold a job so they have to buy lottery tickets in hopes of hitting the big one. The smart ones are on disability (they never explain why but prescription drugs are constantly being sought to treat "back pain") and they are rarely married or have more than two children with the same parent. And they tend to have other children with other people but aren't paying for any of them.

As for the people who lawfully buy guns with the intent to go out and hurt people - say what? Sigh. By that logic, we should equate chefs with ax murderers simply because both use a blade.

Toad - are you refering to prohibition when you talk about liquor stores being banned? Yeah, you ended up with bootleggers, the equivalent of dealers.

QOL for people living on the edge is what it is. Highs and lows, for the most part. Too much drama to really get much of a foothold on life.

mmonroe
06-20-2008, 05:38 AM
Out of curiosity, is there a pawnshop in Edmond?

Toadrax
06-20-2008, 06:29 AM
Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&q=pawn+shop&near=edmond,+ok&ie=UTF8&z=11) is your friend

bornhere
06-20-2008, 08:15 AM
Pawn shops absolutely lower the quality of life in an area. I speak as someone who's lost two bicycles, a lawn mower and numerous weedeaters and power tools to theives. Do you think all those bikes and mowers lined up in front of the shops were pawned by owners who needed quick cash?

Why do you think the PD has a special pawn shop detail?

These shops are basically fencing operations. It's pathetic that they're allowed to continue, but their owners basically the same bunch of people behind the payday loan companies have too much pull at the capitol for them to ever be reined in.

OKCMallen
06-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Chicken or the egg- is the area such that a pawn shop will open there, or is a pawn shop so powerful culturally as to decrease the quality of life in an area? Like most things in life, it's probably a mixture of both, but look- poor people have to live somewhere. Pawn shops cater to poor people. Just like you don't find Dollar General in Carriage Plaza in Norman.

angel27
06-20-2008, 09:10 AM
I don't know about all that but I just wish we could clean up 23rd beteen Western and Broadway. I think its criminal everytime I see the beautiful old buildings such as was Katheryn Lipes that is now filled with all that junk showing through all those glass windows. The city has done a lot of work in the area and Classen median is shaping up beautifully with their cement zen gardens. My quality of life is rather enhanced by Byrons being where it is - probably because I know its near but don't frequent it often. I wish some cool businesses would buy into our wonderful old buildings... and I guess they are, slowly. Cheevers is making great progress on the old gas station. The Prohibition Club is new and near. I noticed an enticing yarn store has taken up residence in the building in Red Cup Square. Just wish we could rectify the 23rd street strip.. and my quality of life would be even more improved. Would rather have yarn stores than pawn or gun shops tho.

jbrown84
06-20-2008, 03:05 PM
I feel you angel. It's getting there.

mmonroe
06-20-2008, 11:22 PM
I notice things like pawn shops, when I drive through moore, i don't think i've ever seen a pawn shop, there may be one, i'm not saying there isn't, but it's just not prominent. Same with norman and edmond. Never seen a pawnshop there. Same as above.

solitude
06-21-2008, 12:59 AM
I don't know if you'd label it "quality of life" or not, but I think pawn shops blight a neighborhood and my pet peeve: Check Cashing and Payday Loan outfits! They all rip-off those least able to pay the obscenely high interest rates.

mmonroe
06-21-2008, 01:05 AM
A problem I see, we don't have a way for those who need it, to stop going to those institutions and we can't stop those institutions from setting up shop.

PennyQuilts
06-21-2008, 04:54 AM
As long as the pawners think pawning crap is an option they aren't going to build a new mousetrap for their financial situation. The fact that they get pennies instead of dollars doesn't really occur to them. Pawning grandma's sewing machine is like getting free money.

Toadrax
06-21-2008, 11:41 AM
I notice things like pawn shops, when I drive through moore, i don't think i've ever seen a pawn shop, there may be one, i'm not saying there isn't, but it's just not prominent. Same with norman and edmond. Never seen a pawnshop there. Same as above.

Cash America Pawn. 9328 S Shields Blvd, Moore, OK
Pawn Shop. 427 S Telephone Rd, Moore, OK
Cash Now Pawn. 920 SW 4th St, Moore, OK
Ron's Pawn Shop. 10513 S Sunnylane Rd, Oklahoma City, OK

EZ Pawn: Norman. 2321 W Main St, Norman, OK
Ed's Pawn Shop. 122 W Main St, Norman, OK
B & R Pawn Shop. 1210 N Flood Ave, Norman, OK

Pitchford's Pawnshop and Car Audio. 806 W Edmond Rd, Edmond, OK
Classic Pawn. 1319 S Broadway # D, Edmond, OK
Check Into Cash Advance Payday Loan Center. 21 W 15th St, Edmond, OK

If you don't see it, it doesn't exist. :P


As long as the pawners think pawning crap is an option they aren't going to build a new mousetrap for their financial situation. The fact that they get pennies instead of dollars doesn't really occur to them. Pawning grandma's sewing machine is like getting free money.

Or maybe your car breaks down and you are going to lose your job if you are unable to get it repaired?

Maybe you can not afford a new sewing machine because you had to get a job at Taco Bell when the factory was shut down.

Karried
06-21-2008, 11:45 AM
Check Into Cash Advance Payday Loan Center. 21 W 15th St, Edmond, OK



I think this is just a Paycheck Advance ... not a pawn shop carrying merchandise ( If I'm thinking of the right place that is).

Toadrax
06-21-2008, 11:52 AM
Google has them listed under "Category: Pawn Broker & Shops", so I don't know. I haven't been there.

EDIT: of course on second thought it is obvious why a cash advance place would want to be advertised in the same space as pawn shops.. so you are probably right.

Kerry
06-21-2008, 12:08 PM
Let us not forget auto part stores. If I need auto parts, quick cash, pawn a ring, a bottle of whisky, or anything along those line I don't mind driving a long way from my house to do it.

Karried
06-21-2008, 01:29 PM
Might as well add in Storage Facilities with Huge Red Roofs and Junk Yards

PennyQuilts
06-21-2008, 06:53 PM
Or maybe your car breaks down and you are going to lose your job if you are unable to get it repaired?

Maybe you can not afford a new sewing machine because you had to get a job at Taco Bell when the factory was shut down.


That is called "living on the edge." If you are living that close to the edge you are doomed, anyway. It is one thing to live that close when you are twenty years old and working to either learn a trade or get an education. It is another thing when you are 32 years old with a wife and 2 - 4 kids.

ddavidson8
06-21-2008, 08:49 PM
For the record I hate dollar stores and think we should stop going to those.

mmonroe
06-22-2008, 02:45 AM
Ok, now what would these cities look like if these places, simply didn't exist?

PennyQuilts
06-22-2008, 05:40 AM
How would the cities look without pawn shops? I'd say a lot better. However, poor people are always going to be around large population centers, granted. Where there are poor people, there will be people out making a buck off of them because being poor goes hand in hand with being ignorant (one of them main reasons people end up poor). If you are relatively educated and intelligent but have not been exposed to people who are genuinely in a lower socio economic class (and not just someone who is passing through poverty, as in a new immigrant or a young person) you probably have no idea how ignorant and unaware they can be about how things work, and how genuinely uneducated many of them are.

DavidGlover
06-22-2008, 06:38 AM
There is an interesting geographic relationship between pay day lenders and liquor stores. The federal government has capped the lending to the military at 36%. Ohio and other states have started going after pay day lenders high fees and rates.

Toadrax
06-22-2008, 01:23 PM
It isn't just being ignorant that makes people poor....

I know a guy who makes 6 figures but he could not figure out where to plug in a USB mouse. Dogs can be trained to figure out how to put the right shape in the right hole. Monkies and small children figure it out naturally. This guy just had rich parents who put him through a rich school where he didn't do so well but his money allowed him to pass anyway and since his parents knew the right people he got an easy job that paid well.

If nothing was given to him and he had to go out and get stuff on his own, he wouldn't be able to hold a job at Taco Bell.

bornhere
06-22-2008, 01:27 PM
I know a guy who makes 6 figures but he could not figure out where to plug in a USB mouse. Dogs can be trained to figure out how to put the right shape in the right hole. Monkies and small children figure it out naturally. This guy just had rich parents who put him through a rich school where he didn't do so well but his money allowed him to pass anyway and since his parents knew the right people he got an easy job that paid well.

President of the United States?

PennyQuilts
06-22-2008, 01:28 PM
The fact that someone was given money really doesn't say anything, one way or the other, about whether they are competent.

solitude
06-22-2008, 05:16 PM
....because being poor goes hand in hand with being ignorant (one of them main reasons people end up poor).

East Coast Okie, I know you are extremely conservative, your political posts make that clear. However, no conservative candidate for public office could ever survive after making such an offensive statement as you did above. You are making an anecdotal conclusion that simply is not born out by the facts. The poor in America are poor for so many different reasons:

- Their own physical and/or mental health
- Health care bills
- Unemployment
- A minimum wage that doesn't even take one out of poverty working 40 hours a week
- Competition with illegal immigrants

On and on and on it goes.

To lay a social problem like poverty at the doorstep of ignorance is, ironically, considered naive and ignorant in itself. It is a stereotype that doesn't hold up to the facts.

Some good reading can be found here:
From Poverty to Prosperity: A National Strategy to Cut Poverty in Half. (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/poverty_report.html)

Toadrax
06-22-2008, 06:09 PM
I agree.

I went in for computer science with a minor in accounting... I was lucky and had parents willing to pay for it.

I remember the 3 years afterwards I spent running deliveries around before I find a real job, it was really hard to get by on $6.50/hour. I think people should be able to work 40 hours a week and raise a family regardless of the job. I think that is why so many people are dealing drugs and such, because working hard doesn't get you anything.

Anyway, thanks to the pawn shop I got a Playstation 2 at a price I could afford at the time. I do pretty well today, but if the company I am with now went under or let me go...

My brother has spent over half a million dollars trying to get his child back from the state after a false allegation was made against him, he will be in debt for the rest of his life. He will be living on the edge for awhile, but you can't say he is ignorant.

dismayed
06-22-2008, 06:48 PM
Sad about your brother.

I think I read that the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US is due to medical reasons?

I also think I read that the majority of people living on the streets have mental disorders, and a shockingly large number of them are ex-military folks with PTSD. Sad.

But you know I agree with East Coast to a degree. There are also a lot of people out there that make their own problems in this world who should work smarter not harder.

PennyQuilts
06-22-2008, 07:03 PM
To lay a social problem like poverty at the doorstep of ignorance is, ironically, considered naive and ignorant in itself. It is a stereotype that doesn't hold up to the facts.
.

Oh Solitude...

Excuse me, but I did not say that poverty = ignorance. Please read carefully - I said "main" reasons people end up poor. In terms of relying on anecdotal evidence? Read what has been offered to refute - someone has some sort of child abuse charge against them and it messed them up? Sounds pretty anectdotal to me.

Read the stats for what goes along with poverty. When you get right down to it, what causes poverty in this country? What happens when you aren't educated? Before you get on your high horse, get out and work with the poverty stricken. Many of them can't even READ which is one of the reasons they can't get a decent job. Many of them don't understand the connection between too many babies too soon and poverty. You can't seriously debate that crime sky rockets in poorer neighborhoods or that drop out rates are off the scale in comparison to their wealthier neighbors? Is it ignorance or some sort of wilful or - god forbid - a genetic deficiency that causes the difference? I don't buy into genetics a bit - it is poor parenting - caused frequently by drug abuse, lack of work ethic, lack of education, criminality.

In your post, you pointed out that I am extremely conservative. Whether I am conservative or liberal is only a question if someone is coming from a partisan position. Get out and do the footwork. Walk down their streets, do home visits the way I do. Have you? Or do you prefer to throw stones at someone like me who is actually trying to make a difference to the kids who are trapped in poverty and ignorance. You think I can't get elected and that calling it as I see it is offensive? I'm not running for office. I don't have time for that because I am too busy dealing with the reality that is out there instead of sitting back and talking out my *ss about something I haven't lifted a finger to really understand. I am going into the homes and meeting the families and grandparents. I pick the times of day to go when (I hope) it is safer. I visit the schools. I plead with parents to encourage their kids to finish school. I try to get tutors and counselors for the kids when the counselors/tutors are afraid to go into the homes. I try to get them medication and encourage the families to even consider getting them medication if they need it. A lot think mental illness is a bunch of hooey and won't be treated. Of course, ignorance doesn't have anything to do with that position, right? I work to track down dead beat dads with multiple baby mamas who aren't working and who aren't supporting their children. I don't try to get them to pay child support - a lot of times I just try to find them in hopes that they can simply get involved in their kids' lives because the baby mamas are in jail or have hooked up with an abusive boyfriend. Their kids need them.

What are you doing to help these people? Besides attacking people working with the poor and insisting that poverty and ignorance don't go hand in hand, I mean.

I deal with poor people for a living. I work to get them government assistance. I am not going on what I WANT to believe or what I HOPE is the truth. If you aren't in the trenches - and maybe you are - you are far more likely to think that those folks are "just like you," i.e., their parents made them do their homework, they worked for a living, they taught their kids the golden rule, they sent them to bed at a decent hour, they made sure you got your vaccinations, they didn't have a meth lab in the back bedroom, they didn't give their babies drugs to shut them up, and they generally voted and knew who their governor and president were.

And minimum wage? My court kids are having one heck of time getting a summer job because employers have cut back. And most of them need jobs to help out their families and gain work experience. When they don't work, they wander the street. I work with kids who are charged with thievery and it is utterly shocking how many simply don't see anything wrong with stealing things because they don't get them, otherwise. Their folks don't work and the kids don't make the connection between work and having possessions. They just take and this is NOT unusual. Oh, and they aren't stealing bread to feed themselves. They are stealing electronics, video games, ipods, you get the picture. Stuff.

So, do you expect to raise a family on minimum wage or think that it contributes to poverty? Get serious. When you've got several kids how can anyone raise them on minimum wage without government assistance? I bet you dollars to donuts that your parents worked hard to make a good living to provide for you. Minimum wage is NOT a living wage and pretending that it is (when you wouldn't raise your own family on that wage) underscores that many people seem to think that lifestyle is "good enough" for "other" people. The utility of a minimum wage is to allow a young person who has less overhead get their foot in the door long enough to start making wages beyond the minimum. NO ONE wants to live on minimum wage. That is nuts. Raising the minimum wage merely shrinks the number of entry level jobs.

Do you know how many of my clients' families aren't bothering to even look for work? Why not? "I have six kids, no husband and it wouldn't be worth it." And it is the truth.

So, Solitude, do you have an answer or are you just going to label me a conservative and dismiss my position? You think what I have to say is offensive. What I find offensive is that so many people with an opinion don't bother to lift a finger to address the problem. I urge you to get out there and do the foot work before you criticise the people in the trenches. Call me naive and ignorant - based on what? You think I sit around making things up? Perhaps you might be a bit more enlightened if you worked my job for ONE DAY.

I got conservative in my forties when I began doing this kind of work. I went from pretty liberal to this position once I started seeing the unmitigated misery visited upon these children through no fault of their own by poor decisions, primarily fueled by ignorance.

Toadrax
06-22-2008, 07:21 PM
I could raise a child off $7/hour pretty easily if I didn't have to own a car(public transit ftw!), pay taxes, or get screwed over by medical expenses.

It is funny because I remember our city manager talking at the Lions Club(in the late 90s) about how we don't need public transportation because it doesn't take long to drive to OKC from Edmond when the subject was raised... I wanted to kick him in the nuts for not getting it.

You just have a bad impression of people because the only poor people you meet require a guardian ad litem in the first place.

PennyQuilts
06-22-2008, 07:34 PM
Just so you know, about half of my guardian ad litem work deals with straight custody/visitation cases that aren't involved with crimes or abuse. Many of them involve parents who can afford expensive lawyers on both sides, but not most of them. I used to be a teacher and I have grown kids of my own. I was a den mother at one point. Also graduated from a Christian university (although I'm not christian). What that has done is show me the difference that good decisions vs. bad decisions make in the quality of life of the kids.

solitude
06-22-2008, 08:02 PM
Whoa!!! East Coast Okie.... You write about my high horse?

I'm shocked! You wrote out "talking out of your *ss"! You asked me in one of your holier than thou rants not long ago and asked me to please not curse - because I said "hell" and "damn"......I don't think I've ever come close to *ss!

I don't have time now to respond to your rant. Mostly what I read in your post was a self-congratulatory pat-on-the-back about how you are actually "out there" doing something. And yes, I can have an informed opinion about this topic without doing what you happen to do. If we only had opinions and ideas on what we do everyday as an occupation we'd be pretty shut out of participation in the public square, no?

I think there are solutions and many of them are at the link I posted.

As for the kids stealing things.....I agree it's a major problem. I bet, however, you don't get nearly as worked up about the the crime in the suites where millions are being stolen by corporate thugs. Is that ignorance, too?

PennyQuilts
06-22-2008, 08:12 PM
Solitude, write about what you know - not about what you read (which I can guarantee was cherry picked). Before you start preaching about someone like me being naive, go talk to juvenile probation officers - go talk to counselors who deal with kids in poverty, go talk to people depending on government assistance. Unless, of course, you LIKE your theories and don't want to have to deal with actual reality. I am not trying to get credit for what I do - but it is infuriating to hear someone spread disinformation when it actually hurts the kids, which it does. Even your article attributed poverty, in large part, to not working and not taking advantage of educational opportunities.

Thievery is not from ignorance - it is from greed regardless of the socio economic level.

Toadrax
06-22-2008, 08:53 PM
I just hate the whole idea that poverty and ignorance are related. I would say there are just as many ignorant people with money as there are without.

Rich people are drugging up their children and not spending any time with them. My high school was one of the nicest in the metro, but how many funerals did I go to in the immediate years after graduation?

Must be all the pawn shops and liquor stores.

Even well off people make stupid decisions that hurt their children big time. It is sad too, because the only thing a child really needs is someone to spend time with them.