View Full Version : Light rail layout



warreng88
06-17-2008, 12:18 PM
Since no one posted whether this needs to go on another thread or to start a new one, I decided to start a new one. Admin: you are more than welcome to move it if necessary.



Here is my idea for a light rail system in OKC:

Have the central hub be Union Station. A bus station would be built directly east or west across the street from the Station to transport to downtown, bricktown, etc.

All trains would follow the new I-40. West if going to Yukon, El Reno or Mustang or follow I-40 east if going north, south or east. East would follow I-40 east, North would follow I-40 to 235 north and South would follow I-40 east to 235 south (I-35 eventually)

Start out going South (Moore and Norman area) making local stops at SW 15, 29, 44 (with a large parking lot near the stop), 59, 74, 89 (parking lot), N 27, N12, SW 4 (parking lot), 19, Indian Hills, Franklin, Tecumseh, Rock Creek Rd (parking lot), Robinson, Main and stop at Lindsey (Buses to OU)

Next east to Mid/Del area making local stops at Reno & Eastern, Sunnylane, SE 15th, Sooner Road (Rose State College), SE 29 (with several stops and parking lots along the way at Tinker), Douglas, Post (parking), Choctaw and stopping at Peebly (parking lot)

Then, North to North OKC and Edmond making local stops at 10th (OUHSC), 23rd (Capitol), 50th, 63rd (buses to Chesapeake and Midfirst), Wilshire, Britton (parking), Hefner, 122nd (parking lot), Memorial (buses to restaurant row and QSM), 150th, W15th and stop at 2nd (UCO with a lot of parking)

Finally, expand out west to Yukon, El Reno, Mustang area making local stops at Villa (Stockyards city), May (fair grounds), Meridian (parking and Hotel Row), Rockwell, Council (future outlet mall and parking lot), Morgan, Mustang, NW 10th and end at S 11th (Parking)

I think this would be a start and there would also need to be local and express trains (sorry, just got back from NYC) I could see the Express making about three stops south (Lindsey or Main, SW 19, SW 44 and DT), three east (Sooner Rd, Tinker and Choctaw), three north (63rd, Memorial, and 2nd) and three west (Meridian, Council and NW 10th)

Also keep in mind that the bus system would have to be revamped to pick up passengers from these stops to take them on the bus routes to their desired stop.

This is just an idea but I would love everyoneís opinion. Donít worry, I can take criticism; Iím married.

CuatrodeMayo
06-17-2008, 12:57 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/8316-okc-commuter-rail.html?highlight=rail

betts
06-17-2008, 01:06 PM
I still think Union Station is a lousy location. I don't want to go all the way there and then have to take a bus back into the CBD or Bricktown: I want to end up right in downtown. Also how are you getting from Union Station to a north-south route, which I think is the most important one? You'd have to go east to find a reasonable right of way north and south, so why not build a brand new state of the art hub somewhere closer to downtown?. Personally, I'd like to see it in the area just south and directly behind or east of the Ford Center. That way, it could open onto our new boulevard, which be a great place for east-west access to Bricktown and the CBD.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Would it be terrible to use Santa Fe station instead of union for downtown?

betts
06-17-2008, 01:16 PM
Just curious, as I have primarily used public transit in Chicago and NY. How many cities have light rail that doesn't get you closer to the downtown and your main hotel and restaurant area than a half mile to a mile? Are there any that do so, and then require you to take a bus downtown or to your hotel?

warreng88
06-17-2008, 01:22 PM
Betts: On getting N&S, the train would go east (along I-40) to 235 then north or south. I can see your point on building a new one but I was trying to take into account everything coming up with the Core to Shore plan (ie Boulevard, convention center, central park, etc.) I could see a new one built where the half circle buildings in BT are. That would be close enough to 235 and 40 to be a central hub. Again, just ideas.

Also, I was in NYC last week and we had to take the bus from LGA to a train to take us to my brother's house. Not sure when it comes to the DART, or other more regionals transit systems though.

warreng88
06-17-2008, 01:23 PM
Hipster, not sure if there would be enough room to expand to the amount of tracks needed to facilitate this type of project. I guess it could be a multi-story rail line but again you need more room to allow for buses. Also, keep in mind that I am in no way an expert on PT, just an interested citizen.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Tons of buses lining up doesn't sound like a way to unclog streets either...I agree with the expresses though. Not sure who will pay for the lots, but it seems like parking lots would be cheaper to maintain then all our highways...

warreng88
06-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Very good point on the buses and again, I am in no way an expert, just logical. I think there would need to be a larger area for buses to pull in and have the letter or number that corresponds with their route visible in front, side and back. I could see an area for three to five buses (two at smaller locations) built near the stop.

betts
06-17-2008, 01:43 PM
Betts: On getting N&S, the train would go east (along I-40) to 235 then north or south. I can see your point on building a new one but I was trying to take into account everything coming up with the Core to Shore plan (ie Boulevard, convention center, central park, etc.) I could see a new one built where the half circle buildings in BT are. That would be close enough to 235 and 40 to be a central hub. Again, just ideas.

Also, I was in NYC last week and we had to take the bus from LGA to a train to take us to my brother's house. Not sure when it comes to the DART, or other more regionals transit systems though.

I'm actually talking about using a bus to get from Union Station if you work downtown or you're a tourist or resident and want to go to a hotel or restaurant in downtown or bricktown. First of all, if we don't move the crosstown, that part of the city will remain blighted, and I don't want that to be any suburban resident or tourists' first view of our downtown. Secondly, how many people would actually take light rail downtown if they then had to wait for a bus to get to work or go to a restaurant? You've got two completely different fares, waiting time for the bus and then the speed of bus travel. I think it would discourage people from using mass transit, personally. I think any light rail that will be used has to be within walking distance of the attractions most people want to visit, or their work, and that walk has to be safe and attractive. Otherwise, we've spent a lot of money to say we have light rail, and no one is going to use it.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 01:44 PM
so my question is, what would be the cost from say Edmond to my job downtown?

edcrunk
06-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Personally, I'd like to see it in the area just south and directly behind or east of the Ford Center. That way, it could open onto our new boulevard, which be a great place for east-west access to Bricktown and the CBD.
when i looked at the C2S layouts... that's where a new station would be located. i still don't understand what would be so hard about connecting the tracks to that location. still... do those tracks take us anywhere we would want to go?

CuatrodeMayo
06-17-2008, 02:13 PM
so my question is, what would be the cost from say Edmond to my job downtown?

Probably $2 for a single ride ticket. Less if you buy a monthly pass.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 02:16 PM
Probably $2 for a single ride ticket. Less if you buy a monthly pass.

Its like $2.25 just for an express bus pass...do you think it would be cheaper to take the train then the bus? Seems like it would have to be more.

CuatrodeMayo
06-17-2008, 02:26 PM
Every rail system I have ridden has not cost more than $2.50.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 02:29 PM
I wonder if the cities would be on board with the parking lots?

OKCTalker
06-17-2008, 02:36 PM
Too many stops would render a long route (say 10 miles) unbearable. Somebody check my math: Stop every mile (see OP); peak speed 60 mph to average 20 mph; two minutes in each station = 5 minutes per mile, so 10 miles = 50 minutes.

Compare a 20 mpg, $4.00/gallon passenger car on the same route: 10 miles = 15 minutes = $2.00 in gas, plus around $10.00 in car depreciation ($0.50/mile). You gain time & convenience, but lose in overall cost.

Round-trip train: 1 hr, 40 minutes + $4.00.
Round-trip car: 30 minutes + $24.00.

Q: Is 1 hour, 10 minutes each day worth $20.00 to you?
A:

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Too many stops would render a long route (say 10 miles) unbearable. Somebody check my math: Stop every mile (see OP); peak speed 60 mph to average 20 mph; two minutes in each station = 5 minutes per mile, so 10 miles = 50 minutes.

Compare a 20 mpg, $4.00/gallon passenger car on the same route: 10 miles = 15 minutes = $2.00 in gas, plus around $10.00 in car depreciation ($0.50/mile). You gain time & convenience, but lose in overall cost.

Round-trip train: 1 hr, 40 minutes + $4.00.
Round-trip car: 30 minutes + $24.00.

Q: Is 1 hour, 10 minutes each day worth $20.00 to you?
A:

I think thats why it would be important to have more express runs with large parking lots at those stops. Theres probably a place for the multiple stops, but not as much.

CuatrodeMayo
06-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Exactly on express trains.

OKCTalker
06-17-2008, 03:09 PM
I think thats why it would be important to have more express runs with large parking lots at those stops. Theres probably a place for the multiple stops, but not as much.

::Money-grubbing capitalist pig clearing his throat::
Um, gee, so where do you suppose they'd be buying the land for those large, convenient, park-and-ride stations with acres of free parking? I'm just curious, not that I'd want to speculate on buying real estate, not with interest rates a little above 5%.

hipsterdoofus
06-17-2008, 03:17 PM
Its funny, now that gas prices are high, I find myself driving to work every day thinking "what a waste" with those thousands of other cars next to me...

betts
06-17-2008, 03:20 PM
I think it's a waste more in terms of using energy resources that are finite. Any light rail will cost the city (us) billions, and will probably have to be subsidized to keep prices reasonable. So, we probably won't personally end up saving that much, but it's better for the environment, and there are better uses for oil than us riding individually in cars, IMO.

jbrown84
06-17-2008, 05:47 PM
Absolutely Union Station is not going to work for a system like this.

Today I saw a huge crowd waiting for the bus around 5:00 in front of Robinson Renaissance. Young people, old people, restaurant workers, and businessmen. Clearly ridership is up due to gas prices, but it's not practical if those people have to wait for a bus in front of their building, then ride to Union Station, then wait for a train. I'm with whoever it was recently (Kerry?) that said that it will need to run underground through downtown. There really needs to be a several stops in downtown because of the density. People will walk a few blocks to a station, but will someone at the OG+E building walk all the way to Reno & Shields? That's pretty far in a suit in the Oklahoma heat (or the Oklahoma winter for that matter).

Kerry
06-18-2008, 08:27 AM
Why is this so hard to understand? We are moving I-40 six blocks South and moving the rail lines 8 blocks North. Am I the only person that sees how simple and economical that is. Union Station is in the wrong location. The Santa Fe station in Shawnee is pretty darn cool - why don't we use that as the hub?

If you think either station, Santa Fe/Union, could be used as modern multi-modal transit hub then you are crazy. Bother are way too small to be used for that. We need something that is 3 or 4 times larger than either one of them. Once again I will use MARTA as an example. Five Points station is the main Hub and it is 4 stories and 3 of them are underground. It dwarfs Santa Fe and Union combined.

JWil
06-18-2008, 08:46 AM
Too many stops would render a long route (say 10 miles) unbearable. Somebody check my math: Stop every mile (see OP); peak speed 60 mph to average 20 mph; two minutes in each station = 5 minutes per mile, so 10 miles = 50 minutes.

Compare a 20 mpg, $4.00/gallon passenger car on the same route: 10 miles = 15 minutes = $2.00 in gas, plus around $10.00 in car depreciation ($0.50/mile). You gain time & convenience, but lose in overall cost.

Round-trip train: 1 hr, 40 minutes + $4.00.
Round-trip car: 30 minutes + $24.00.

Q: Is 1 hour, 10 minutes each day worth $20.00 to you?
A:

And this is why people won't even consider public transit until gas is at about $6-$6.50 a gallon.

RabidRed
06-18-2008, 08:39 PM
I just got back from Vancouver and had a chance to see their new "light rail" system. They have two tracks beside each other for trains going in the opposite directions. The trains are run by computers thus no drivers. Much like you would see at DFW airport, except these are running across the metro area. They charge $5 per day Canadian (close to the same here). Monthly passes are much less. I didn't study the stops or connections but the trains look good like something out of the future. The tracks are built up overhead for the most part. Something I can envision going down the center median of the Broadway Extension.

Someone in an early thread suggested that people going to the airport might be able to check their bags at the train station like in Edmond and not have to deal with them again until they land at their destination. I love that idea!

betts
06-18-2008, 08:50 PM
Someone in an early thread suggested that people going to the airport might be able to check their bags at the train station like in Edmond and not have to deal with them again until they land at their destination. I love that idea!

It sounds like a great idea, and that would make taking light rail to the airport much more feasible, but the only place I've seen that is in London. There was an American Airlines check in desk at Victoria Station, and it was a direct train to Gatwick. They stopped doing it after 9/11 when security became so much tighter. It was so convenient, but I'm not sure that will ever happen again.

Even if it were possible, you wouldn't be able to get on at any stop and do that. There would have to be only one central airlines desk for check in. I, for instance, wouldn't drive to Edmond if there were a baggage check-in there, nor would I probably drive downtown to take a train that let me check in directly.

jbrown84
06-18-2008, 09:53 PM
Yeah the Gatwick Express train is a private operation. It's not part of the public London Underground system.

downtown20
06-23-2008, 06:56 PM
They should build an underground Terminal beneath the new Avenue which will replace the old Crosstown once it comes down. They could build it relatively cheaply by building the new Avenue directly over the terminal. That way railway could go underground in the downtown area to make room for other transit at grade. Electric streetcars above the underground terminal could circulate people throughout the downtown area. If our government is willing to spend billions a year on highways, we should demand they spend more of that money on more transportation options like rail of all sorts. Most people will find they'd much prefer a train ride to work over a crowded highway any day.

CuatrodeMayo
06-24-2008, 07:26 AM
At the very least, build a tunnel the length of the Boulevard so that rail can be installed at a later date.

Kerry
06-24-2008, 07:42 AM
I think the problem is that all of us have different ideas on what kind of rail system is being considered. People use the term lightrail as a generic name for any type of rail system, while in reality it is a very specific type of rail system. There are a variety of laws that surround each type and the system canít co-mingle. They can all use the same transit hubs but they canít use the same tracks.

Is lightrail right for OKC? Probably not. I think most of OKC would be better served by street cars that run in existing road right-of-way. Initially access will probably be restricted to inside I-240/I-44/I-35 with future lightrail/heavyrail connection to Norman, Edmond, and other suburbs. I think the advantage for a street trolley system is to replace the frequent short in-town drives and not the long highway commuters. For those living in central OKC they can ride to work, dinner, shopping, and doctor offices. For those living further out, well, they probably wonít get service for a while, if ever.

sjlevine
08-01-2008, 01:12 PM
From the OG&E building, one could use the Underground (I believe that is what they are calling what was once the Conncourse). It could be extended to the new transportation center, which I agree should be south of the current Santa Fe Station.

I favor commuter rail between Norman, Oklahoma City and Edmond and eventually to El Reno and Shawnee. Nashville did their system on the cheap, buying used locomotives from Amtrak and commuter cars from the Chicago RTA. I believe that, when commuter rail cars purchased with federal monies are retired, if they are sold, it must be for a nominal price. The Music City Star commuter line in Nashville recently picked up some used railcars from another metropolitan transit agency for $1.00 apiece.

sjl

SouthsideSooner
08-01-2008, 03:29 PM
For an affordable, practical beginning of fixed rail downtown, I like Blair Humphreys green line concept...

imagiNATIVEamerica Ľ Bricktown Parking: Killing Two Birds with One Streetcar (http://imaginativeamerica.com/2008/07/bricktown-parking-killing-two-birds-with-one-streetcar/)

Luke
08-01-2008, 05:37 PM
I'm tellin' ya...

Monorail is good because it goes anywhere there is already infrastructure. It would be a unique and iconic mode of transportation without any negative stigmas. In fact, it's link to Disney is a really positive stigma. Plus, it's a symbol of the future. And it would be a unique mode of transportation to lead the Renaissance City into the future.

Midtowner
08-01-2008, 05:40 PM
How would the city pay for this?

Are you willing to pay significantly higher city taxes? What form do you think would be the most fair?

Luke
08-01-2008, 05:43 PM
Well, if I'm gonna be taxed out the wazoo anyways for some future form of public transportation, I'm thinking we should go all out.

:)

JWil
08-01-2008, 06:18 PM
For an affordable, practical beginning of fixed rail downtown, I like Blair Humphreys green line concept...

imagiNATIVEamerica Ľ Bricktown Parking: Killing Two Birds with One Streetcar (http://imaginativeamerica.com/2008/07/bricktown-parking-killing-two-birds-with-one-streetcar/)

That's great and all... but Sheridan is a disaster directly north of the Cox Center.

LordGerald
08-01-2008, 06:46 PM
We can plan great things all we want, but 'tis true, we're going to have to find a way to pay for it.

I foresee that Maps 3 (coming December 2009) will have a streetcar, fixed guideway project relegated to downtown, also known as a circulator.

But, for transit to grow beyond downtown, it's going to require a dedicated funding source. We have one for the Zoo, but we don't have one for transit. It's going to have to be on a county by county basis. Oklahoma City can't do it alone. The city boundaries span four different counties. Other metro areas have had to do this. Denver had to reach out to seven counties, 116 communities. There are 7 counties in the OKC MSA. We are going to need cooperation from the state legislature and a vote of the people to get this done.

There are few "new starts" dollars available from the federal level. Federal money is available only to finance wars on foreign soil. Gasoline usage is down, which further cuts into our Highway Trust Fund. The USA has the lowest gas tax in the free world, yet our system for financing our highway and transit infrastructure is still based on the gallon purchased. We need to change our system to a user fee that rewards efficient vehicles and taxes people who drive a lot and drive heavy vehicles. Politics aside, my point is that we are going to have to finance this ourselves, because there is no federal funding available to make this work.

That aside, I can assure you that MAPS 3 has a streetcar component, and if people support it and ride it, it could lead to bigger and better things.

Luke
08-01-2008, 07:24 PM
How bout a creative way to fund a project like this? What if the big businesses would sponsor some station stops? The Devon Downtown Station. The Chesapeake Station in Nichols Hills. Surely, Edmond businesses would sponsor a stop. I think automatic stops would be at the malls around town. The airport. Norman. I would imagine a wagon wheel style spoke and loop would be a good idea spoking from downtown outward and then looping around the city.

Again, with monorail, you're not limited to where you can go because it goes over current roads. It may be an interesting option to explore.