View Full Version : Airline Cuts



venture
06-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Just going to keep this generic since more will happen as schedules come out.

Continental will end service from OKC to Cleveland in September due to fuel costs.

brianinok
06-13-2008, 05:29 PM
Any chance they'll consolidate some of those 7 RJs to Houston into more than 2 mainlines? Having that many RJs on a route is beyond rediculous. There should be a law with a maximum RJ count on routes like this....

venture
06-13-2008, 09:55 PM
I would say no. They are grounding their older 737-300s and -500s...and they only have so many -700s to go around.

I am with you though, if these airlines were forced to consolidate back to larger aircraft and away from RJs - congestion wouldn't be an issue. Plus they wouldn't have ran off so many customers by switching traditional large jet routes to RJs. Sure everyone wanted to have more frequent schedules, but the 50-seat RJs are money losers most of the time now.

JWil
06-13-2008, 11:30 PM
I hate the regional jets.

At least Southwest gets it. All the others are jokers. Charging for checking bags? That's a crime IMO. I can't wait for the next step: Banning carry-on bags, so they can make more money.

venture
06-14-2008, 09:31 AM
I don't agree with the method they are using to cover costs, but definitely not a crime or unexpected. Airlines elsewhere in the world have been charging for these things for awhile now, so no shock we are going down that road.

Airlines just need to deal with it and raise fares to cover their costs. If it scares the people who are too cheap to pay their fair share, so be it. However the side point to all this, airlines are getting to the point of pure transportation companies. You are paying to go from point A to point B...and that's it. You won't anything else, pay more.

Southwest would be bleeding cash right now like the rest of them without their fuel hedging program and the money they've made off that.

solitude
06-14-2008, 11:45 AM
Southwest's marketing over the whole fee issue with other airlines is nothing short of brilliant. Some of the best ad work I've seen in a long time -- especially the print ads. Brilliant!

chrisok
06-14-2008, 02:31 PM
I hate to hear about the cut in service. While connection times weren't great, I didn't mind connecting through CLE. Just about every city they're dropping to/from CLE were new routes, most newer than OKC's. (TUL, SAV, DSM, and AUS) It's funny how quickly companies can change their minds. All of this happens just a few months after CO announces these big plans to expand its hub in CLE.

Not a very proactive group, these airlines.

flintysooner
06-14-2008, 03:53 PM
April 23, 2008 article on Motley Fool:
Let's Nationalize the Airlines! (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/04/23/lets-nationalize-the-airlines.aspx)

I am a capitalist pig. I am a total economic libertarian, and I am ready to send the airline executives to the gulag. You know, I am ready to nationalize the whole thing."

-- P.J. O'Rourke, speaking on Real Time With Bill Maher, March 21, 2008

Kerry
06-14-2008, 04:03 PM
You mean we get the safety and performance of Aeroflot at twice the prices we currently pay. How do we sign up? Name just one thing our government does well - just one thing. Why trust Washington with anything else?

flintysooner
06-14-2008, 04:47 PM
There's a growing chorus for some kind of federal intervention. Even a Forbes on Fox guy this morning was promoting some kind of temporary deal.

venture
06-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Eh...the fed can do a few things, but definitely not nationalize. Couple steps that come to mind...

1) Relax the taxation on the airline tickets. Airline service is the highest taxed form of transportation and business (i believe) in the country.

Right now airlines and airline passengers pay a Federal Ticket Tax (7.5%), Federal Segment Tax ($3.30 per seg), Passenger Facility Charge ($4.50 per departure, used to fund airport improvements), Federal Security Service Fee ($2.50 per ticket), and I'm sure I'm missing a couple.

The FTT and FST both go to fund the FAA's operations. Commercial operations only account for about 30% or so of the national traffic. Military makes up about 6% and Air Cargo is about 3%. The rest of the flights...over 60% are flow by general aviation, business jets, or air taxis. Imagine if that 60% had to pay a similar amount as the airlines for use of the FAA system...airlines would see a HUGE drop in what they were do. Or...ATC and other areas would actually get improvements.

2) Establishment of fixed landing slots at airports and restrict the frequency of smaller aircraft on the same route.

Let's say Philadelphia can handle only 70 arrivals/departures per hour...but the airlines have 100 per hour scheduled. Massive delays. Restict service to an airport to where it won't be overflowing with traffic it can't handle. This also will mean airlines will have to go back to offering flights on larger aircraft. Ideally this should allow them to spread the cost of fuel over additional seats.

The flip side...this will have some other effect by hopefully pushing airlines back into secondary airports. Philly is full, okay...you start looking at Wilmington, DE or Trenton, NJ.

flintysooner
06-15-2008, 05:26 AM
It seems to me that the antiquated air traffic control system might bear significant responsibility, too. Seems like once there is GPS in every aircraft that routes could be significantly altered for much greater efficiency. That would even allow for innovation in plane sizes and faster and more flexible adaptation to consumer needs.

Right now the consumer and the airline each regard each other as the enemy with the possible exception of Southwest. That's not a good situation.

Just like the NWS and the military and every other federal system the ATC is so outdated. It just seems impossible for the bureaucracy to stay anywhere near close to current with computing and software engineering.

The airlines are in such bad shape though and there is nothing optimistic on the near term horizon that I see. The quickly approaching consolidation in the industry is unlikely to improve things for the employees, support companies, or the consumers. The owners and lenders have already changed more than once.

I think federal intervention should occur at some point before the entire industry is lost.

venture
06-15-2008, 10:08 AM
I totally agree if the ATC was upgraded like it has been in Europe...we wouldn't have nearly the problems we do now. However when only 30% of the users are being charged for using it, its no wonder money is tight.

i don't think airlines look at their customers as enemies...its just management doesn't know what else to do. The passengers demand to see low ticket prices, well if the other expenses are added in up front - they won't be all that low. So it comes down to airlines having to break out those feels to show customers how much it has cost them to get things for free before. Southwest has done a great job marketing wise for this, but they are also feeling the pinch. Continental is the other that I would put up there as far as respecting the customer.

OUman
06-16-2008, 07:58 AM
^CO has been better than most other legacy carriers but lately I've heard service standards are dropping with it as well. And I'm sure the passengers on that broken lavatory flight across the Atlantic would beg to differ ;)

jbrown84
06-17-2008, 08:54 PM
So is XJet pulling out for sure? My friend flew last week and said while he was gone, they took down XJet's big add in the concourse and put up a new one advertising their Ontario flight.

venture
06-17-2008, 09:35 PM
Yes...the XJet branded flights are leaving for good. In fact, the entire branded operations sounds like it'll be gone for good by fall.

jbrown84
06-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Probably just making sure the flights do as best as possible while they're still around...

venture
06-25-2008, 01:49 PM
American detailed their Q4 cuts today.

OKC will lose one daily round trip to Chicago O'hare, dropping to 3 daily from 4. St. Louis and Dallas remain unchanged.

OKCTalker
06-25-2008, 02:55 PM
GPS is a much better option than the current ATC-dictated airway system. Ironically, GPS-direct flights are in less-congested airspace and run a lesser risk of a midair than following VR or IR routes. Add TCAS, and it's a no-brainer (note: "TCAS" stands for Traffic Collision Avoidance System which is a little screen in the cockpit showing other aircraft in the pilot's vicinity. Also known as a "fish finder.")

My last two IFR flights back home were delayed by ATC routing, delaying our takeoff from Denver by 30 minutes, and giving me the ___ Arrival into Wiley Post from the northeast. Would have been better to launch VFR and pick up a clearance in the air.

venture
06-28-2008, 12:07 AM
Delta will be announcing thier cuts either this week or just have their holiday. Stay tuned.

flintysooner
06-28-2008, 03:55 AM
I just flew again for the first time in 10 years.

There have been a lot of changes. I parked off airport in the same place but now a different company name. I was surprised how full the lot was even at my very early hour. The lots at the airport were bigger and fuller.

The security experience at the airport was better than I anticipated but I was expecting something more like torture. I really like the renovations to the terminal. I was surprised at the number of people.

Ticketing is pretty different with these kiosks for boarding passes.

Oklahoma City's airport is so much more convenient than other places.

The airplanes are the same except even more crowded and older and a little more worn than I remember. There were no empty seats. I had forgotten the discomfort of air travel.

Everything seems more rushed and busier.

On the return there were storms in Dallas and the flight to OKC was canceled so ended up renting a car and driving back. I didn't remember the rental car terminal in Dallas. In fact DFW seemed larger. I was at DFW in 1974 a few months after it opened and recall a tram stranding passengers. Now they have a brand new train.

venture
07-06-2008, 01:07 AM
American will be cutting DFW to 7 from 8 flights in November.

OUman
07-06-2008, 01:38 PM
^venture I think the American and Eagle/Connection "cuts" aren't really cuts as such, just seasonal eliminations, they do these every winter.

venture
07-06-2008, 03:43 PM
Nah, this is a cut. They are eliminating a large portion of the fleet and having to move aircraft around. This is the main reason for the larger than expected cuts out of Chicago.

chrisok
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
Yes...the XJet branded flights are leaving for good. In fact, the entire branded operations sounds like it'll be gone for good by fall.


September 2 to be exact.

Luke
07-10-2008, 10:35 PM
You would think with the NBA coming, more non-stops might be coming online for OKC? No?

Jesseda
07-11-2008, 06:44 AM
I do work at the airport, as everyone know, express jet i cutting service from okc, there is a cut in how many charter flights off to las vegas, flights are being reduced on flights that make multiple trips to one city like dallas, atlanta, st. louis, so far it doesnt look good on adding holiday air schedules.

metro
07-11-2008, 07:43 AM
I don't think the NBA alone can justify enough traffic to warrant non stop flights.

metro
07-11-2008, 07:46 AM
Southwest's marketing over the whole fee issue with other airlines is nothing short of brilliant. Some of the best ad work I've seen in a long time -- especially the print ads. Brilliant!

I guess I haven't seen the ads, do you have a link? As a marketer, I'd love to see them. Southwest has some of the best marketers in the country. I was fortunate enough to here one of their top marketing execs at a workshop here in OKC a few years back.

venture
07-11-2008, 04:16 PM
US Airways will close OKC, ending the flight to Las Vegas this month and the remaining Phoenix flights in September.

So much for that one dude's US Airways Hub. :-P lol

Wonder if I should change my avatar now. Nah.

venture
07-11-2008, 04:26 PM
Not sure if anyone got this earlier.

United will also end one of the 2 daily LAX flights. There is word that they will eliminate Los Angeles and Washington service this fall, so we'll have to wait and see.

solitude
07-11-2008, 05:31 PM
I guess I haven't seen the ads, do you have a link? As a marketer, I'd love to see them. Southwest has some of the best marketers in the country. I was fortunate enough to here one of their top marketing execs at a workshop here in OKC a few years back.

Hi Metro, Here's a post (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/business/May-June-08/Southwest-On-the-Attack-in-Feisty-New-Ad-Campaign.html)from a blog about the ads. It has one small part of one of the ads (the coupon). I can't find the actual ads anywhere online. Lots of stories on them though....

New Southwest Airlines ad campaign targets other airlines' fees | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/053108dnbusairnickel.3633d88.html)

http://www.adweek.com/aw/content_display/creative/new-campaigns/e3i2de8a18e89befee305a120c307d17cc7 (http://www.adweek.com/aw/content_display/creative/new-campaigns/e3i2de8a18e89befee305a120c307d17cc7)

venture
07-13-2008, 02:43 AM
I haven't posted this information in awhile.

Here is the 2007 Q4 Data for the markets from OKC that have at least 10 passengers per day (on average) flying to them. Highlighted markets are those that either had nonstop service at the time or currently do.

origin (http://www.flytol.com/OKC-2007-Q4-OD%20Report.html)

Definitions of the columns...

Origin - Market city
Distance - Air distance from OKC to the city.
Passengers - Average passengers per day (overall)
Fare - Average fare paid
Carrier_lg - Largest airline overall in the market
Large_ms - Largest airline's market share percentage
Large_ppd - Largest airline's passengers per day on the route
Fare_lg - Average fare for the largest airline in the market
Yeild_lg - Rough estimate yeild per mile the route is marking the largest airline.
Carrier_low - Carrier with the lowest average fare
Lf_ms - Lowest fare airline market share percentage
Lf_ppd - Lowest fare airline passengers per day on the route
Fare_low - Average fare charged by the lowest airfare airline
Yeild_low - Rough estimate yeild per mile for the route, for the lowest fare airline
Numrecs - ignore :)

Airline codes for those that don't recognize them:

AA - American
CO - Continental
DL - Delta
F9 - Frontier
NW - Northwest
US - US Airways
UA - United
WN - Southwest

lpecan
07-13-2008, 12:22 PM
that's awsome! where did you get that?

EDIT: Never Mind... just look at the url

Edit x 2:

So it looks like the major markets we dont have NS to that get decent traffic are:

Orlando, Florida, USA 200.87
Seattle, Washington, USA 143.48
Tampa, Florida, USA 104.13
Nashville, Tennessee, USA 96.63
Portland, Oregon, USA 94.89
San Francisco, California, USA 91.09
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA 89.89
Boston, Massachusetts, USA 86.63
Raleigh/Durham, North Carolina, USA 79.89


I guess WN is doing MCO... 200 is a pretty good yield.

The only other two that seem competitive are SEA, but I doubt AS/QX would ever fly here. Also, TPA would work, but there aren't many NS available out of there, anyway. Either way, this would be decent news for us if oil wasn't heading for $150 a barrel.


EDIT XX3

So is FlyTol your website? If so, where are you getting these OD numbers? I've been looking for them for.....ever!

venture
07-13-2008, 02:08 PM
Yeah FlyTOL is mine...had it for about 15 years now.

The stats are here: Contents (http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-50%20Role_files/consumerairfarereport.htm)

Table 6 is usually the best one to use for quick reference.

I'm not sure how many of the markets out there we can get new service too. All depends on if oil goes down or not...if not, more cuts. If it does, we'll recoup some lost services.

brianinok
07-19-2008, 08:27 AM
I can't seem to find the article on newsok.com right now, but I read a story a few days ago where Mark Kranenburg was quoted as saying that Delta was adding an addition daily flight to Atlanta and Cincinnati. That's at least one bright spot in all this bad news. Now if oil will just continue its 12% decrease this week....

venture
07-19-2008, 10:32 AM
Yes, we do gain one more to Atlanta. Cincinnati will remain at 2 flights for now, but are expected to be cut as that hub is likely going to shut down with the Northwest merger.

HOT ROD
07-19-2008, 10:33 PM
nice to see OKC get some additional flights, might stem the flow from the losses.

I just hope we dont lose United's IAD and LAX 2nd flight. I can NOT see those flights not doing well. Perhaps we just need a different plane, which is more efficient?

Especially with X-jet pulling out, those LA flights should be even fuller than they hvae been.

venture
07-20-2008, 01:03 PM
Here is a run down on the currently scheduled air service changes...I would also note that in November there are several equipment changes (to smaller aircraft). This will happen on UA to Denver, Frontier to Denver, NW to Detroit, NW to Memphis, and Continental to Houston.


From OKC To -- Current Service (first number) -- November Service*(second number)

Chicago O'Hare*
American - 4 American - 3
United - 4 United - 3
--------
Detroit Metro
Northwest - 2 Northwest - 2
-----
Newark/New York
Continental - 1 Continental - 1
----
Cleveland
Continental - 2 Discontinued
--------
Cincinnati/Covington
Delta - 2 Delta - 2
------
Minneapolis/St Paul
Northwest - 2 Northwest - 2
--------
Memphis
Northwest - 3 Northwest - 3
--------
Baltimore/Washington
Southwest - 1 Southwest - 1
---------
Washington Dulles
United - 1 United - 1
---------
Atlanta
Delta - 5 Delta - 6
--------
Dallas/Fort Worth
American - 8 American - 7
--------
Dallas Love
Southwest - 5 Southwest - 5
--------
Houston Bush
Continental - 9 Continental - 9
--------
Houston Hobby
Southwest - 4 Southwest - 4
--------
St. Louis
American - 2 American - 2
Southwest - 2 Southwest - 2
--------
Denver
United - 5 United - 5
Frontier - 3 Frontier - 3
Southwest - 2 Southwest - 2
---------
Salt Lake City
Delta - 2 Delta - 2
---------
Los Angeles
United - 2 United - 1
---------
Phoenix
US Airways - 2 US Airways - Discontinued
Southwest - 3 Southwest - 3
----------
Las Vegas
US Airways - 4x week US Airways - Discontinued
Southwest - 1 Southwest - 1
----------
Albuquerque
ExpressJet - 1 Discontinued
----------
Ontario
ExpressJet - 1 Discontinued
-----------
San Diego
ExpressJet - 1 Discontinued
-----------
Sacremento
ExpressJet - 1 Discontinued
----------
Kansas City
Southwest - 3 Southwest - 3

brianinok
07-20-2008, 04:49 PM
Hard to complain about that in the current environment. Glad to see UA is not dropping LAX and IAD. And how are they going to make the planes smaller to Houston, Denver, Memphis, and Detroit?? Aren't they all pretty much on RJs (except for maybe a couple flights to Houston and Denver)?

Karried
07-20-2008, 05:29 PM
All I know is that I'm driving to Dallas next week to get a NS to Orlando. It sucks that I can't fly out of OKC, but I've resigned myself to that fact, a family of four saves between $400-$700 by flying out of Dallas.

It would be so nice to just get on a plane and get there in a few hours without layovers, stupid flight times, and not having to drive 3 hours to take a flight.

venture
07-20-2008, 05:45 PM
The downgrades are pretty much smaller series aircraft.

Houston the big impact there...3-4 of the flights go to just 4x weekly.
Denver - United does the seasonal charge from the A320, A319 and a couple RJs they are doing now...to smaller 737 and 50 seat jets. Frontier goes from the A319/A318 aircraft back to Dash 8s.
Memphis loses a 75 seat ERJ-175 back to a 50-seat CRJ...same with Detroit.

venture
07-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Here are some Q1 numbers starting to come in. I'm working with the guy that puts these together (Josh Stone) and get a full report for OKC.

Key:

Rnk: This is where the route ranks in performance for that specific airline.

System Revenue/Departure is the total amount of revenue from each itinerary that this segment is a part of, including previous and upcoming connections, as well as same itinerary return trips.

Segment Revenue/Departure is the prorated amount of revenue from each itinerary that this segment is a part of, using the root of the miles method.

Tkt Yield is the quotient of the System Revenue and Total Itinerary Miles.

Contrib Yield is quotient of the Segment Revenue and Total Segment Miles.

LF is Load Factor for the segment, as a percentage of seats filled.
------------

Rnk..Route . Sys Rev/Dep Seg Rev/Dep .. Seg RASM . Tkt Yield . Contrib Yield . LF

United (423 possible routes)
181 .. OKC-DEN .. $23,840.01 .. $7,396.69 .. $0.16922 .. $0.18766 .. $0.17168 .. 71.51%
281 .. OKC-IAD .. $20,219.65 .. $9,800.83 .. $0.13072 .. $0.19603 .. $0.19320 .. 65.65%
292 .. ORD-OKC .. $14,332.61 .. $4,957.73 .. $0.12788 .. $0.18405 .. $0.17673 .. 64.04%
360 .. OKC-LAX .. $16,615.93 .. $7,466.16 .. $0.09530 .. $0.15543 .. $0.14909 .. 58.12%

Northwest (357 possible routes)
93 .. OKC-MEM .. $14,619.46 .. $5,976.41 .. $0.24685 .. $0.22993 .. $0.19327 .. 77.92%
129 .. OKC-MSP .. $13,144.00 .. $7,523.08 .. $0.21649 .. $0.23087 .. $0.17487 .. 71.33%
251 .. OKC-DTW .. $10,756.07 .. $6,140.81 .. $0.13646 .. $0.17183 .. $0.16444 .. 76.73%

US Airways (429 possible routes)
323 .. PHX-OKC .. $22,159.18 .. $8,238.97 .. $0.11501 .. $0.14183 .. $0.13571 .. 74.90%
395 .. OKC-LAS .. $15,025.64 .. $6,670.04 .. $0.07858 .. $0.12944 .. $0.13199 .. 62.17%

Continental (284 possible routes)
57 .. OKC-IAH .. $13,234.93 .. $6,464.91 .. $0.24838 .. $0.19530 .. $0.14367 .. 79.32%
209 .. OKC-CLE .. $7,530.07 .. $5,797.39 .. $0.12364 .. $0.21327 .. $0.15019 .. 50.70%
225 .. OKC-EWR .. $8,148.49 .. $7,731.09 .. $0.11670 .. $0.16735 .. $0.18867 .. 70.16%

American (ranks and total number not avail)
OKC-DFW ..$36,082.66 ..$6,614.86 ..$0.28880 ..$0.17345 ..$0.15466 ..76.40%
STL-OKC ..$8,861.08 ..$4,337.63 ..$0.18778 ..$0.19089 ..$0.15055 ..70.88%
ORD-OKC ..$13,383.03 ..$5,278.56 ..$0.13943 ..$0.19174 ..$0.18456 ..68.38%

Delta (518 possible routes - LAX was already discontinued)
189 .. OKC-ATL .. $22,996.57 .. $8,727.23 .. $0.19082 .. $0.23386 .. $0.22601 .. 76.96%
325 .. OKC-CVG .. $15,666.54 .. $5,437.70 .. $0.14387 .. $0.19249 .. $0.19156 .. 74.06%
389 .. OKC-LAX .. $7,114.42 .. $7,059.29 .. $0.11894 .. $0.19138 .. $0.14597 .. 62.00%
402 .. SLC-OKC .. $15,939.83 .. $4,839.74 .. $0.11177 .. $0.14172 .. $0.13998 .. 76.63%

HOT ROD
07-21-2008, 08:49 PM
I wonder why Continental couldn't keep just one flight to CLE?

Also, why we never got Charlotte on USA is just mind-boggling to me. Also, why doesn't the Southwest Orlando flight survive? Can't they do a Saturday/Sunday service?

One more question, will Southwest pick up the Vegas (and Phoenix) seats?

As much as I hate the thought of OKC turning into a Southwest bastion - but I want to see cities covered and so far they are the only airline who consistently does well in OKC.

As for United - I thought the A320's and A319's are more fuel efficient their 737-300/500's and puddle-jumpers? Maybe USA can sell some of their jets to United?

Good to see Chicago not take a huge hit, though I can't see why we took a hit at all considering all planes are rj's. Why isn't Southwest doing Chicago Midway? Even one daily flight would suffice.

I think Mark K needs to get creative with airlines. Instead of daily flights, go with X weekly. Or share a flight with Tulsa or whatever. We need to get creative, because there is no reason in my mind, for OKC to lose flights to Chicago or Vegas, and no reason I can think of that OKC doesn't have 2x weekly to Orlando.

I too am glad to see IAD and BWI and LAX and EWR remain.

venture
07-21-2008, 10:47 PM
Hot Rod...

CO cut back a lot from CLE, so the routes OKC and other cities would feed to went away. They are also eliminating a good chunk of RJs from their system.

Charlotte on US was pretty much a given, everyone would have thought. I just think the local group running the airport didn't push too much for it. If US had CLT here, they wouldn't be leaving.

I'll get the yeild numbers on Orlando, but I'm sure they are downright ugly.

Southwest won't add anything to PHX or LAS, from my guess. Once I can get my hands on the data that includes Southwest, we can figure out where they are sitting. The US Airways flights were doing about 129 passengers a day, LAS was about 54 passengers 3 days a week. If Southwest is averaging about 75% load factors, or about 308 pax a day...that means there is room for about 108 more passengers on those flights. So the need for an additional segments by Southwest is very low.

United is parking the vast majority of their 737 fleet by the end of next year. US Airways will start doing the same. So there is a little to no reason for US to sell any aircraft to United. Plus United will offset this by additional code-sharing with Continental.

Chicago...both airlines in the mid 60s for load factors, flying high cost RJs...cut backs were a given. American is moving a large number of RJs to replace the remaining Saab turboprops - so they had to pull them from somewhere. I think there is also a major push to cut back traffic in Chicago until capacity is able to be increased through the new runway.

The days of tagged flights is pretty much done outside Southwest. Hooking up with TUL is a waste of money for airlines. I would say now would be a time to try to get Allegiant in here, at least to Florida...but again, the demand may not be there - especially since the vast majority of their business is on package sales...not air fares.

Luke
07-21-2008, 10:50 PM
I would love a nonstop to Orlando via Southwest or Allegiant. We just flew from Wichita to Orlando. I like that it's non-stop. Of course, we flew on their last flight back to Wichita. So, no more Wichita to Orlando.

Looks like layovers from OKC to Orlando. :(

HOT ROD
07-22-2008, 12:59 AM
how could Wichita have Orlando and not Oklahoma City. No offense to ICT, but OKC is a much bigger market - and Venture, you have Karried and many other people on here who are saying they travel to DFW to get flights to Orlando and a few other markets not served well or at all by Will Rogers.

I think this needs to be brought up to WRWA management, they need to do a better job getting OKC flights. They dont all have to be daily nonstops, we could do X times weekly or even once a week (say to Orlando via Southwest, like they were doing Baltimore until recently making it daily).

Get creative... Go after more direct flights, say to San Francisco via Denver on United. I've never seen it - but isn't that a natural? I have seen Seattle via Denver before and have flown it, but i haven't seen it in the last year or so, since Frontier started service to both SEA and OKC.

As for tagging, I think that is a missed opportunity. Im sure TUL would rather tag along with OKC rather than lose service altogether. And it might just make sense for a flight to Orlando - for instance - that OKC and TUL tag together. I say this because doesn't charter flights do tagging (like to cancun).

Like I said, there are NUMEROUS people who are still going to DFW for DOMESTIC flights. I could see it if they were going international and wanted to save some bucks. But IT SHOULD BE TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE in this day and age with OKC having 1.4M metro area - that such a large amount of people would still go to DFW for domestic flights.

I think when Alliegent was here - perhaps their flights were not priced right. I mean, it wasn't like they needed to fill a 757 or even 37; they flew rj's. Im sure they could have been profitable at 60%. Maybe now they need 80% but still that should leave some discount options.

I dont want to let WRWA off the hook. Im not buying it about the jet fuel - OKC should be in the position to pick up or lose no flights. Smaller planes, ok - I admit that. But, we should not lose any - in fact OKC should be still gaining.

I do agree about CLE closing would have an effect on OKC. It's just sad to see.

ditto the CLT that never became. Get on Kran's A$$ about this!!@!!

venture
07-22-2008, 06:33 AM
There have been two recent attempts to have nonstops from OKC to MCO.

Allegiant had planned to fly to Sanford/Orlando when they were flying here, but the lack of demand had them pull Las Vegas flights and nix ideas for Orlando.

Delta Connection had operated one daily flight on an ERJ-145 last year. The flight was barely half full, of low yeild (money losing) passengers, and it got axed with other low yeild traffic. Guess who controlled the majority of traffic? Southwest...who gladly services OKC-Orlando with a brief stop in Houston.

You also can't compare Wichita with Oklahoma City. That city does massive subsidies to airlines. To AirTran alone, they have paid nearly $35 million to them over the years to maintain that service.

Allegiant flies all MD-80s...not RJs. Again, they make their money off of packages...not air fares.

Direct flights are still there...American does several with their DFW bound flights that continue to the west coast. Charters do not tag flights...if you are thinking about Cancun, they make a stop in Dallas on the way back to clear customs - nothing more. OKC does not have a passenger customs facility.

The problem right now is that unless you have a higher yeilding (money making) route, the airlines aren't going to bight. Nearly EVERY airline has drastically cut back flights into Orlando. Why? Low yeild, money losing flights. Airlines do not give a crap about the leisure vacation passenger right now.

I'll get the overall OKC specific details...that will allow us to see just how well OKC is doing.

SeinfeldBlock
07-22-2008, 07:33 AM
I wonder why Continental couldn't keep just one flight to CLE?
...........

I too am glad to see IAD and BWI and LAX and EWR remain.

I wasn't sure why they were cutting the Cleveland flights...I'm disappointed to hear that they are. Lately, when I haven't been able to get a direct flight from OKC to EWR, I've passed through Cleveland--at least a few times in the past 6 months or so. The rest of the time I'm going through Houston, but it's actually very expensive for consumers to fly to EWR via Houston from OKC. I'm not sure why....

I was really paranoid that the EWR flight would be cut. Granted, it's the ONLY non-stop we have to the New York metro area, so I thought it was safe, but I take that route about 10+ times a year. That would have seriously dampened my opinion of WRWA.

I fly Continental 90% of the time. I hate to see any cuts from them.

I'm learning a lot on this thread..... you know, as an average flyer......

BG918
07-22-2008, 08:07 AM
I keep expecting to hear Frontier will cut flights from OKC. I am flying them in September to Denver and really hope they don't. We can't let United control OKC-DEN, I fly that route alot and don't want to pay way more than I have to.

worthy cook
07-22-2008, 09:03 AM
Its crazy but USA today came out a few weeks ago that shows average daily seats coming in and out of the airport. I was surprised that places like birmingham and omaha had thousands of more seats per day than here. Just found it wierd.

Also, I know im just being picky but does anyone think they should change the name to Will Rogers International rather than World? I just think it sounds better. But thats just me.

OKCTalker
07-22-2008, 09:31 AM
How many international flights fly into and out of Will Rogers?

Luke
07-22-2008, 09:34 AM
Its crazy but USA today came out a few weeks ago that shows average daily seats coming in and out of the airport. I was surprised that places like birmingham and omaha had thousands of more seats per day than here. Just found it wierd.

I don't know why, but my guess is that between Tulsa, DFW and even Wichita, more non-stop or direct flights can be found for a big enough difference in cost that it's worth the drive from OKC.

venture
07-22-2008, 10:30 AM
Seinfeld...
I would say EWR is safe for now, but the yeilds need to come up a bit. Still, almost 19 cents per miles compared to 15 cents for the CLE trips...there is much higher yeilding traffic on that route.

BG918...
They dumped/are dumping Tulsa from their network (Frontier), so that may help OKC some. They are going back to the Dash 8s for the fall, so the costs will drop a bit using those instead of the Airbus aircraft. I love Frontier's product over anyone else flying from WRWA right now. I would say the biggest threat to Frontier right now is not United, but Southwest. People still blindly follow them, even though their fares are far from the lowest sometimes (they recently released that they have eliminated their fare caps of $299 one way that they've had for ever). If people don't use Frontier, or jump away from them now that Southwest flies the route...then they'll pack up and leave.

Worthy Cook...
Omaha and Birmingham have been that way for years. Omaha also has the catchment area that is much larger than OKC. Birmingham has a decent sized Southwest presense, and get a lot of traffic from Atlanta that chooses not to use Delta or AirTran. If Dallas didn't have Southwest at Love Field, OKC would be sucking a ton of people from that area.

OKCTalker...
Currently...4 weeks international flights leave WRWA. Two of them go to Cancun, the other two to Puerto Vallarta. Also, "International" in an airport designation means that the airport has a customs facility available for either cargo or passengers...or at lease the ability to facilitate those type of flights. When looking up the airport... AirNav: KOKC - Will Rogers World Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KOKC) ... it states that KOKC is a customs landing rights airport, and can freely use "international" in the name if they so wish. Many smaller airports than OKC use the International name...one for marketing, and two because they have done everything needed to have customs on the grounds.

Luke...
I would be interested in seeing a leakage report from the airports department to see how much actually leaves the area. With a major hub south in Dallas, that usually can cause a ton of leakage - but the fact it is a 3 hour drive helps. The worst city I know with hub leakage is Toledo, OH to Detroit. The cities are about 50 miles apart, and even with a metro area of around 660,000 people in TOL...they can only muster 8 flights a day and a few weekly flights on Allegiant. They also did a study and it shows that over 90% of the local travelers, make the hour drive north to Detroit Metro to fly. So the draw and power of tons of nonstop flights from large hubs is a huge issue for any city that is with in driving distance. Wichita I would say would pull people thanks to AirTran being there...Tulsa, I would say doesn't have much if any impact. The schedules are stacked almost identically to OKC...except for some larger aircraft on the American flights. But to that you can thank the mainenance base for as it makes it easy for them to rotate aircraft through that way.

HOT ROD
07-22-2008, 12:30 PM
WN also flies to Den now, that will help keep United under control and I'd think Frontier will survive.

On your last point, venture - wouldn't it make sense for Alaska Airlines to offer pax service from Seattle to OKC (to say Miami or DC or someother place in the east?) because OKC is Alaska's major maintenance facility?

Right now, they are just flying empty planes. Using the Tulsa analogy, even if the plane wasnt full - you'd still get 'something' out of it. and last I checked/saw, the SEA-OKC route is quite healthy and Im sure could support a daily nonstop (or at least a couple times weekly). And would give current owner United some much needed competition.

How can we get the airport staff to realize and capitalize on these creative ideas????

venture
07-22-2008, 01:25 PM
I always thought SEA-OKC was a given on AS...but apparently they don't agree. I don't think they would do a tag flight to another city - even though it would be nice.

HOT ROD
07-22-2008, 01:28 PM
Venture, i suggested the tag just in case SEA-OKC wouldn't be profitable alone or if Alaska wanted to service a 'new' market on the east - say Miami, yet still exercize a need' of sorts via OKC. The plane could be listed as a 1 stop or plane change in OKC, a few times a week.

Anyways, just trying to be creative - something I wish the airport management would do.