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metro
08-02-2011, 12:37 PM
also of note is that the entire CC area will have a very different feel and a much better layout, if/when CHK aquires the remaining 2 houses on 58th. CHK will open the barrier between 58th and the rest of CC and build 2 more buildings that will be some of the largest in the curve
Exactly, people need to be patient, and I think CC and respective area have fared well given the economy

Pete
08-02-2011, 12:38 PM
And CHK is still acquiring properties further south of 58th, so there will be more development there as well.

I see CC as part of a much larger development, not a development in itself.

dmoor82
08-02-2011, 12:45 PM
Is there any chance this area will see a highrise residential development in the future?With CC,WF,Chesapeake and even close to the highway and Penn Sq. mall,I see this as a prime place for residential!Any thoughts?

betts
08-02-2011, 12:46 PM
The whole CC area is evolving, which is actually a lot better way to develop a retail area, IMO. The important thing is that the shops in the Curve are appealing, as are the restaurants. Whether you like the architecture or not, most people are going to go where they can shop for things that appeal to them. Look at how ugly much of Nichols Hills Plaza architecture is, especially on the north side, and yet people shop there. If over time the Curve expands to include more of the neighborhood behind it, I think you will hear people singing its praises. If I were Aubrey, however, I would create an underground walkway between the Curve and the Triangle. The biggest problem is that many people will feel they have to get into their car to get between the WF/Anthro block and the CC block because there's a fair amount of traffic on Grand and Classen. If he wants it to feel like open air shopping, then he needs to make it easy to get between stores. I do very much hope the building next to Anthro is retail as well. The more retail, the better. Restoration Hardware would be the ideal tenant.

metro
08-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Highrise no, lowrise maybe

Pete
08-02-2011, 12:55 PM
Yes, connecting CC with the Triangle and surrounding area is going to be a challenge.

That part of it does not seem to have been very well planned out.

betts
08-02-2011, 12:59 PM
Yes, connecting CC with the Triangle and surrounding area is going to be a challenge.

That part of it does not seem to have been very well planned out.

That's why I'd like to see a big wide underground underneath the Grand/Classen corner. It would make it a simple stroll between the two.

dankrutka
08-02-2011, 01:15 PM
I love the architecture of CC, especially because it's actually something different for unique for OKC.

Pete
08-02-2011, 01:21 PM
I think once CHK has more development in place, CC will look even better. You can see the Triangle is already a bit of a bridge between it and their campus, at least from a style perspective.

I'm sure when they add a hotel, more retail, build out the eastside of their campus and redevelop NH Plaza, there will be a very large area with a great blend of traditional and modern elements. And the way CHK spares no expense, you know it will be first class.

jdcf
08-02-2011, 01:45 PM
I'm not even sure that one can walk right now from Balliets to On a Whim without going out on Western. Last time we were there, there were not even sidewalks along Grand.

Spartan
08-02-2011, 02:32 PM
I think there are sidewalks now, but I could be wrong. I know they weren't along Classen for a while, and then they added them right before the opening literally overnight.


And CHK is still acquiring properties further south of 58th, so there will be more development there as well.

I see CC as part of a much larger development, not a development in itself.

I think this is the case.

betts
08-02-2011, 02:45 PM
They've been working on sidewalks the last week or so. I drive up there every so often to check on the Anthropologie store. Sounds like they still plan on opening in February, which is a shame. They could have that building done in a couple of weeks if they really wanted to. I'm not sure why they don't want to open prior to Christmas.

Pete
08-02-2011, 02:50 PM
betts, I suspect that the hold up is Anthropologie, in that they probably have other stores in their queue that are a higher priority for whatever reason.

I'm sure this is the case with Whole Foods too, as we are well over a year into that construction and they still have a long ways to go.

I think CHK is deliberately going slow with the shells to coincide with the hand-off for tenant finish, and they need their own teams to do a lot of that work.


Just contrast Whole Foods with Sunflower at 63rd & May. The latter will be open in a fraction of the time not only because the shell was already there, but because this site was clearly a priority and they immediately threw tons of resources at getting it done.

Near me, I saw an entire mall constructed and fully occupied by about 100 tenants in around 9 months, and that included carving most the property out of the side of a mountain! It's all about motivation and priorities.

redrunner
08-02-2011, 04:05 PM
It's not irrelevant if your a business owner who is seen as having a poor attitude on a public forum, in which you have a store in discussed development. Sounds like your bitter CC isn't meeting your expectations.

Those are all false assumptions. I would suggest you know what you're talking about before making stuff up. You of all people have the worst attitude on this forum.

metro
08-02-2011, 06:40 PM
Those are all false assumptions. I would suggest you know what you're talking about before making stuff up. You of all people have the worst attitude on this forum.

Still you have neither confirmed nor denied assumptions, leaving one to wonder what you have to hide

Pete
08-02-2011, 06:46 PM
metro, pretty sure someone asked the same thing some time ago and he said his name was just a coincidence.

redrunner
08-02-2011, 08:44 PM
Metro was actually the one that asked me a while back. Moving on!

soonerguru
08-07-2011, 11:47 AM
After visiting the new outlet mall, it seems fairly obvious that Mr. McClendon and perhaps his architect should have sought input from people who actually are skilled in developing retail shopping destinations. The difference is fairly extreme in execution.

Rover
08-07-2011, 10:12 PM
After visiting the new outlet mall, it seems fairly obvious that Mr. McClendon and perhaps his architect should have sought input from people who actually are skilled in developing retail shopping destinations. The difference is fairly extreme in execution.

You aren't seriously comparing the two shopping areas are you?

bluedogok
08-08-2011, 07:15 AM
The difference in styles of retail fairly extreme as well. One does not translate to the other.

If you don't like Classen Curve, don't shop there.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 12:11 PM
Nuance is lost on some people. Of course they're radically different retail destinations. The point was one was executed well, the other is half empty with a parking lot in the middle.

bluedogok
08-08-2011, 04:16 PM
The Domain is shopping with parking in the middle, some rather large lots that break it up. Of course I think it is a horrible design and I see it everyday but it is full every afternoon and evening, but it is also full because development and many of the large retailers are receiving city incentives. I don't think that the existing Classen Curve was ever meant to be a mega-mall type of retail that most of the newer lifestyle centers seem to be which is an amalgamation of the traditional shopping mall and the big box mall. Since there is mostly locals in there now and the Whole Foods/Anthropologie are in a different area I see them as two distinct areas serving different market.

I not saying that it couldn't have been executed better, but it isn't exactly the worst development in existence.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 06:57 PM
The Domain is shopping with parking in the middle, some rather large lots that break it up. Of course I think it is a horrible design and I see it everyday but it is full every afternoon and evening, but it is also full because development and many of the large retailers are receiving city incentives. I don't think that the existing Classen Curve was ever meant to be a mega-mall type of retail that most of the newer lifestyle centers seem to be which is an amalgamation of the traditional shopping mall and the big box mall. Since there is mostly locals in there now and the Whole Foods/Anthropologie are in a different area I see them as two distinct areas serving different market.

I not saying that it couldn't have been executed better, but it isn't exactly the worst development in existence.

I don't think it's anything close to "the worst development in existence," nor did I say anything like that. I said it is a major disappointment, and it is. It doesn't even compete with a Utica Square, let alone the Plaza in KC or other upscale retail destinations. It's extremely disappointing, and seems to be a bit of a flop so far. Hopefully it will improve, whether or not I like the design.

This city deserves a cool, urbane, upscale retail destination, and while this one is extremely pretentious in nature, it is also not terribly well conceived -- and half empty.

dankrutka
08-08-2011, 07:08 PM
Patience, young one. Patience.

Rover
08-08-2011, 07:38 PM
I don't think it's anything close to "the worst development in existence," nor did I say anything like that. I said it is a major disappointment, and it is. It doesn't even compete with a Utica Square, let alone the Plaza in KC or other upscale retail destinations. It's extremely disappointing, and seems to be a bit of a flop so far. Hopefully it will improve, whether or not I like the design.

This city deserves a cool, urbane, upscale retail destination, and while this one is extremely pretentious in nature, it is also not terribly well conceived -- and half empty.

Wow. I don't think the CC is looking for you as a customer...totally different demographic, obviously. You probably need to keep going to the outlet mall or Dollar Tree.

bluedogok
08-08-2011, 07:46 PM
I think the economy happening the way that it did had a lot to do with it, just as the space was coming online everything cratered and retail went into a big contraction mode. I think that combined with bigger plans for the area might have made the early adopter types hesitant to move in there. I know of about 10 or so stores in the high end Phase I section of The Domain that have folded for various reasons and that doesn't include stores like Rheul or Martin+Osa that were shut down entirely by their parent companies. Some like the grocery that was open when our offices moved in there (Feb 2008) were just too early, there wasn't enough office or apartment tenants at the time to make it viable, it would probably be a different thing now with Phase II finished and many more apartment buildings and tenants in there.

Pete
08-08-2011, 08:33 PM
They are actually doing better with their leasing than I had anticipated due to everything bluedog mentioned in his post.

I think all of this would make more sense if CHK would actually share their plans for all the surrounding parcels, including the Triangle.

onthestrip
08-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Wow. I don't think the CC is looking for you as a customer...totally different demographic, obviously. You probably need to keep going to the outlet mall or Dollar Tree.


I agree with soonergurus assesment is and I think it is pretty spot on. Doesnt mean Im or hes not their demographic just because we think that its kind of a flop. But I know that im part of their target demographic. Im fairly young, have expendable income yet Ive never gone there to shop, only to eat at a couple of the restaurants.

betts
08-08-2011, 09:46 PM
Do people really shop based on architecture? I shop based on what merchandise is in the store. They've got some nice stores at Classen Curve.

onthestrip
08-08-2011, 10:20 PM
Do people really shop based on architecture? I shop based on what merchandise is in the store. They've got some nice stores at Classen Curve.

No. At least I wouldn't think so. But that's the point, the shopping isn't there. And most of what is in there has already been around the area for awhile, only moving from one center to cc. Not sure anyone can say that cc has brought in any new exciting shopping.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 10:52 PM
Wow. I don't think the CC is looking for you as a customer...totally different demographic, obviously. You probably need to keep going to the outlet mall or Dollar Tree.

You're just an ass. If you think I wouldn't shop at a quality upscale retail destination, you're clueless. What else can I say? You deride people for "ad hominem attacks," and then you suggest I shop at Dollar Tree? Wow. What a jerk you must be in real life.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 10:53 PM
Which ones? Uptown Kids? Please, I can't stop laughing. That lame running store? You can't be serious. Balliett's is very nice, I'll admit. Not much else.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 10:57 PM
I think the economy happening the way that it did had a lot to do with it, just as the space was coming online everything cratered and retail went into a big contraction mode. I think that combined with bigger plans for the area might have made the early adopter types hesitant to move in there. I know of about 10 or so stores in the high end Phase I section of The Domain that have folded for various reasons and that doesn't include stores like Rheul or Martin+Osa that were shut down entirely by their parent companies. Some like the grocery that was open when our offices moved in there (Feb 2008) were just too early, there wasn't enough office or apartment tenants at the time to make it viable, it would probably be a different thing now with Phase II finished and many more apartment buildings and tenants in there.

Isn't The Domain way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in Northwest Austin?

betts
08-08-2011, 11:08 PM
On A Whim, B D Home, Steven Gilesas well. I shop at them all. It's close enough to NH Plaza and Western shops that I can hit them all. When Anthro opens the best shopping in town will be in a one mile stretch.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 11:15 PM
On A Whim, B D Home, Steven Gilesas well. I shop at them all. It's close enough to NH Plaza and Western shops that I can hit them all. When Anthro opens the best shopping in town will be in a one mile stretch.

These are decent stores, but they're not going to ignite a retail revolution. On a Whim was simply relocated from Western. B D Home is nice but very limited. These are total niche stores and overall the "curve" lacks any retail identity. It is anything but vibrant, but I suppose it provides a 30-minute diversion for the Housewives of Nichols Hills.

soonerguru
08-08-2011, 11:18 PM
On A Whim, B D Home, Steven Gilesas well. I shop at them all. It's close enough to NH Plaza and Western shops that I can hit them all. When Anthro opens the best shopping in town will be in a one mile stretch.

And you'll have to drive from one stretch to the other, because the Einsteins who developed it decided we needed another series of strip shopping centers meandering for approximately a mile (next to a cemetery).

betts
08-09-2011, 06:57 AM
Soonerguru, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. There will come a time, and I'm not sure when, that the Curve is full and retail is hopping there. It already adds a lot of variety to shopping options on Western. But, we've got this shopping mall mentality here. Western has some of the most unique shopping in the city. Until Anthropologie comes along, it's completely chainless. Balliet's is an anchor tenant of sorts, but I don't think you need anchor tenants. From Heritage Shoes (or Hoffman furniture on 36th, depending on whether you would ever walk into Hoffman furniture) all the way up to Discoveries near Wilshire there are a great variety of shops from which to choose. You can have lunch all along Western as well, with some of the better restaurants in the city, most of them also completely original.

I believe Western is due for a makeover a little ala Project 180. But, if I were in charge, I have a Western Hoppa Bus that simply travels between Wilshire and 36th and stops on every other streetcorner. I'd call it "The Shops on Western" or some such thing. The stores on Western already have a "Wednesday on Western" promotion and I'd tie it in too. With well-marked stops, I think it would be a hit and would probably encourage even more retail to locate there.

Classen Curve doesn't have to be the most wonderfully designed center in the world, as long as it has shops and restaurants people want to go to. And, I suspect that as Aubrey continues to buy land, it will eventually look much more like a square than a strip. It's a long walk from the bottom of Utica Square to the Saks. It's a long walk between stores in Chelsea. I've spent an entire day shopping in Chelsea and have covered a vast amount of territory. Same with Bucktown in Chicago. It's more attitude than distance.

bluedogok
08-09-2011, 08:19 PM
Isn't The Domain way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in Northwest Austin?
At one time it probably was but not anymore, it is about 9 miles north of downtown. It was a brownfield redevelopment of the former IBM manufacturing campus that was built in the 70's off Mopac just north of 183 and was being touted as "Austin's Second Downtown" (what a crock). Most of the homes within 5 miles were built in the 70-80's, the ones southeast of 183/Mopac in the 50-60's, I know because I have been looking at some in the area. "Way out in NW Austin is Cedar Park/Leander, which really isn't that far out now, I also know a bunch of people who live out that way. The same as OKC, we have a lot of pockets of empty land between developments out that way but they are slowly filling in.

semisimple
08-09-2011, 09:10 PM
Isn't The Domain way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in Northwest Austin?

No, the Domain is in a well-established and developed area close to the Arboretum and a cluster of tech companies. By comparison the other big lifestyle center here in the Austin area, Hill Country Galleria, does feel like it's "way the hell out in the middle of nowhere."

Popsy
08-09-2011, 09:46 PM
I have heard, or perhaps am starting a rumor that possibly Aubrey is going to hijack about a thrid of the streetcar fund to put streetcars in his development to connect the whole project. My thoughts are this might not be a bad plan as at least that part of the steetcar project would have decent ridership as opposed to the line that would run up Robinson or to the Health Sciences Center. With all that Aubrey has done for the city I don't see him having a problem swaying the city council, except for the squirily guy that is trying to build a political reputation for the purpose of running for congress as soon as possible by making bogus and unfounded allegations against city leaders and people that actually make something happen.

mcca7596
08-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Yep, I think you're starting an unfounded rumor.

ljbab728
08-09-2011, 09:51 PM
I have heard, or perhaps am starting a rumor that possibly Aubrey is going to hijack about a thrid of the streetcar fund to put streetcars in his development to connect the whole project. My thoughts are this might not be a bad plan as at least that part of the steetcar project would have decent ridership as opposed to the line that would run up Robinson or to the Health Sciences Center. With all that Aubrey has done for the city I don't see him having a problem swaying the city council, except for the squirily guy that is trying to build a political reputation for the purpose of running for congress as soon as possible by making bogus and unfounded allegations against city leaders and people that actually make something happen.

There will be a second coming of the French Revolution if that happens. LOL

okcustu
08-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Betts, I'm in between your opinion and soonerguru's. I think the big difference between Utica that sooner is lamenting is that there are few trees and in terms of layout it is a gussied-up strip, not an outdoor mall with parking on the outside and a neighborhood feel. The tenants aren't groundbreaking; but I think they're important in proving to the luxury retailers we all so desire, that we Okies can support upscale retail.

okcustu
08-09-2011, 10:22 PM
But I love your idea of the buses, they should run late though for the bar crawl crowd!

shawnw
08-09-2011, 10:53 PM
But I love your idea of the buses, they should run late though for the bar crawl crowd!

Agreed. I've wanted shuttle buses directly linking the hot spots (bricktown, downtown, midtown, plaza, classen circle, western, etc), until a streetcar can replace them, for the longest time...

Larry OKC
08-10-2011, 02:32 AM
And you'll have to drive from one stretch to the other, because the Einsteins who developed it decided we needed another series of strip shopping centers meandering for approximately a mile (next to a cemetery).
Never fear (or maybe we should)...I heard that they are planning on buying the cemetery and telling everyone they relocated the graves. But along the lines of Poltergeist, they only moved the markers, building employee housing on the spot. As Carol Anne would say, "They're here". [evil maniacal laughter]

Patrick
08-10-2011, 08:31 AM
I have to somewhat agree with soonerguru. Classen Curve simply doesn't have enough space there to amount to anything significant, other than a small upscale strip center. You can't even begin to compare it to upscale lifestyle centers like The Grove in LA, or even Utica Square in Tulsa. I think Chesapeake keeps hoping to make CC comparable to those, but I just don't see it happening. Shoot, Springcreek Plaza in Edmond is far better than CC. Overall, I think CC is way overrated, and always will be.

BoulderSooner
08-10-2011, 11:27 AM
I have to somewhat agree with soonerguru. Classen Curve simply doesn't have enough space there to amount to anything significant, other than a small upscale strip center. You can't even begin to compare it to upscale lifestyle centers like The Grove in LA, or even Utica Square in Tulsa. I think Chesapeake keeps hoping to make CC comparable to those, but I just don't see it happening. Shoot, Springcreek Plaza in Edmond is far better than CC. Overall, I think CC is way overrated, and always will be.

pretty soon CC will have 2 more fairly large buildings that will make it less of a strip .. and make it much more walkable

onthestrip
08-10-2011, 12:44 PM
pretty soon CC will have 2 more fairly large buildings that will make it less of a strip .. and make it much more walkable

Hopefully they'll realize these new building need some depth. As fascinating as his work may be, Rand Elliot is no retail specialist.

Pete
08-10-2011, 12:58 PM
With all the property they own, I'll never understand why they decided to try and make this area a big retail location. They've done about as well as the limitations of the site will allow but why acquire/develop this property at all? It was a hidden residential neighborhood with little traffic -- I didn't even know it was there.

My only thought is they were hoping to get their NH Plaza plans started sooner than has turned out to be the case, and needed a place to move retail tenants so they could totally redo the Plaza and bring in lots of national retailers.

Now, you have this funny little strip center with no real street exposure and it's really difficult to walk around it. I know this will change a bit when they expand one more street south, but still it's very awkward. And it's completely disjointed from their campus and the Triangle area with Whole Foods. I'm quite sure their employees get in their cars and drive to the CC restaurants for lunch; not sure they could walk if they wanted to.

And no matter where they build housing eventually, people won't be able to walk to CC from there either.


Why not develop the area bounded by Western, 63rd and Grand into full-on retail with a hotel (long rumored) then redevelop NH Plaza into a big-time lifestyle center? Why did the CC area need to be developed at all? It's a very strange location and totally detached from pretty much everything else they are doing.

Patrick
08-10-2011, 02:43 PM
And what I don't get is they try to boast about it being OKC's new upscale lifestyle center, as if it's a national attraction for our city or something. Honestly, I don't see how it's any different than what Northpark Mall offers. In fact, Northpark is probably better.

metro
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
And what I don't get is they try to boast about it being OKC's new upscale lifestyle center, as if it's a national attraction for our city or something. Honestly, I don't see how it's any different than what Northpark Mall offers. In fact, Northpark is probably better.
I've never heard them say it. honestly, how often do you hear it from an official source promoting it as that? I've only heard select OKCTalkers talk it up as that. All the CC print ads and email blasts, NONE are promoting it as you describe.

Patrick
08-11-2011, 03:39 PM
I've never heard them say it. honestly, how often do you hear it from an official source promoting it as that? I've only heard select OKCTalkers talk it up as that. All the CC print ads and email blasts, NONE are promoting it as you describe.

Just read the 2011 OKC Visitor's Guide. It talks it up like it's the reason to come visit OKC! Afterall, it's north central OKC's dream upscale shopping destination! LOL!

Rover
08-16-2011, 10:45 PM
And what I don't get is they try to boast about it being OKC's new upscale lifestyle center, as if it's a national attraction for our city or something. Honestly, I don't see how it's any different than what Northpark Mall offers. In fact, Northpark is probably better.

If you are talking about Northpark Mall in OKC, you have to be kidding. NP is dead and dull.

LakeEffect
08-17-2011, 09:12 AM
If you are talking about Northpark Mall in OKC, you have to be kidding. NP is dead and dull.

Northpark is almost completely leased (25,000 or so sq ft left), and it's full of high-end, local shops. Hardly dead and dull.

metro
08-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Northpark's not dead, it's more alive than Crossroads, and almost as much as Quail, its more leased than both.

Larry OKC
08-17-2011, 11:34 AM
Last time I was in Northpark (admittedly been at least a couple of years) I would have to agree with the "dead and dull" comment. If spaces were leased most of the stores were closed (early evening). Place was essentially deserted of any foot traffic. Reminded my of Shepherd Mall, Crossroads, the now closed one over in Mid-Del the last time I was in them. Certainly no comparison to Quail or Penn Square crowds.

Rover
08-17-2011, 08:47 PM
Northpark's not dead, it's more alive than Crossroads, and almost as much as Quail, its more leased than both.

The mortuary is more alive than Crossroads. Any comparison to Quail is ludicrous.

Patrick
08-18-2011, 08:14 PM
If you are talking about Northpark Mall in OKC, you have to be kidding. NP is dead and dull.

Yeah, where have you been lately? Back in the late 80's, early 90's, it was empty and actually had the south end closed off, but the mall has actually made a revival in recent years, and is doing pretty well. Not 100% occupancy, but I'd be willing to bet well over 75% occupancy.

Patrick
08-18-2011, 08:16 PM
Last time I was in Northpark (admittedly been at least a couple of years) I would have to agree with the "dead and dull" comment. If spaces were leased most of the stores were closed (early evening). Place was essentially deserted of any foot traffic. Reminded my of Shepherd Mall, Crossroads, the now closed one over in Mid-Del the last time I was in them. Certainly no comparison to Quail or Penn Square crowds.

Yeah, upscale stores tend to close at 5 or 6PM. So, of course it dies down after that, with the exception of the movie theater. And the stores there are mostly upscale boutique stores, so they're obviously not going to attract the traffic that national retailers attract. But, the mall itself is actually doing fairly well.