Okay, all of our stars must be aligning or something, but check this out from Green Source magazine (from the Architectural Record group)

A River Runs Through It - GreenSource Magazine (http://www.greensource.construction.com/features/0804_ARiverRunsThroughIt.asp)

Take that Tulsa!!!:fighting3

Take that Tulsa!!!:fighting3

I assume you're joking, but I don't understand this divide between OKC and Tulsa and I've live in Oklahoma my whole life. I think friendly competition is good but beyond that it's just destructive. I think it'd be great if Tulsa's ambitous river development happened. I'd love it if they get an NHL team. I think Oklahoma as a whole would benefit from two great, world class cities.:)

Great article, loving the national exposure, we can't buy this sort of thing.

Maybe half joking . . . after having a speaker at a conference with both OKC and Tulsa leaders present say that the perception of OKC was that of a "cowtown" and Tulsa was the "cultural elite" or something to that effect.

I can't help but enjoy seeing all the positive publicity that keeps coming our way when you know it has been the result of progressive leadership and citizens that believe in their city.

They have some really great pics of okc on this site. I really like the aerial of the boathouse.

There's some great ideas there from San Antonio and LA. We should take a serious look at those, as far as ways to soften the banks and such.

I assume you're joking, but I don't understand this divide between OKC and Tulsa and I've live in Oklahoma my whole life.

I think this was just a little jab at those T-towners who for years considered OKC to be the bastard step-child of Oklahoma. They were the "cultural elite" living amongst rolling hills and trees, and we just a great big cow town in the middle of the dry, desolate prairie, with plenty of cow chips - and not money - to throw around.

I know for a fact that for years some Tulsans would refuse to come to OKC foro ANYTHING because they considered it beneath them.

Now we have a resurgence and it really feels good to us. We're experiencing a comeuppance of sorts, and it's now our turn to brag. Tulsans now come here in droves for our restaurants, Bricktown entertainment and opportunities that they don't have.

I agree with you, though, in that I would like to see them develop more, especially along their river, which is beautiful. For some reason, they just can't get it together right now and we just happen to be on more of an upswing. So, yeah, it kind of feels good to dish it out every now and again, especially because we had to put up with it from them for so long.

Amen, Sister!

Fritter- I think some of their development problems lie in the fact that they can't agree upon one "main" area along the river to really put forward. Private developments down Jenks way are doing pretty well, but I think lots of central Tulsans are very hesitant to see money develop south of town. Esp when they started talking about moving the Drillers to the southside.

Fritter- I think some of their development problems lie in the fact that they can't agree upon one "main" area along the river to really put forward. Private developments down Jenks way are doing pretty well, but I think lots of central Tulsans are very hesitant to see money develop south of town. Esp when they started talking about moving the Drillers to the southside.

I also keep hearing that there are issues and large differences in opinions between "Old Tulsa" (the longstanding, cultured and monied elite), and "New Tulsa," (the young, hip, creative crowd) in terms of direction for the river.

Generationally, we all seem to be headed in the same direction, with similar ideas for what our vision is and how that will play out. Our local leadership has done an excellent job in consensus building in that manner.

Where I do see us falling just a hair short is in the availability of affordable non-rental housing in the downtown area. With most condos right now starting in the $200k+ range, and with the Overholser Green project that's likely to skew in favor of the mega-wealthy, that still blocks out a lot of not-so-young professionals who may find downtown housing desireable but out of their price range.

Eventually, they will have to bring in lower-cost housing opportunties if they want to continue to attract a diversity of individuals to downtown living.

I agree. Lofts @ Maywood should help start to fill that gap, and if the Midtown Renaissance projects go residential, hopefully they will too. Is Seiber going to be for-lease or for-sale?

Keep in mind Harvey Lofts sold pretty reasonable and a few at Central Ave. Villas are priced fairly low compared to most of the 200K+ stuff.

There's some great ideas there from San Antonio and LA. We should take a serious look at those, as far as ways to soften the banks and such.

That would allow the river to almost come "full circle" from what it was to what it is now. Of course in its natural state it probably would've never been navigable like it is now. Softening the banks, planting more trees, cleaning up some of the blight, modifying the bridges, etc. are all steps we can take to continue making the river better.

I find it interesting all the publicity OKC has gotten with their river just because growing up in Tulsa you never thought of OKC as a river city, as the "river" was just a ditch. It's great to see that transformation.

I assume you're joking, but I don't understand this divide between OKC and Tulsa and I've live in Oklahoma my whole life. I think friendly competition is good but beyond that it's just destructive. I think it'd be great if Tulsa's ambitous river development happened. I'd love it if they get an NHL team. I think Oklahoma as a whole would benefit from two great, world class cities.:)

I agree, but having spent the first 23 years of my life in OKC and the last 3 years in the Tulsa area I can tell you first hand the Tulsa nostalgia is due to years past. Right now the city is in shambles and is in desperate need of good leadership. Something that doesn't appear to be on the horizon :(

I agree. Lofts @ Maywood should help start to fill that gap, and if the Midtown Renaissance projects go residential, hopefully they will too. Is Seiber going to be for-lease or for-sale?

sieber will be for rent, they have to for at least 2 years because they received grant money in order to make the project feasible. A stipulation of the grant money was that the units have to be for rent for at least 2 years.

FYI... I took pictures in both buildings today at the Downtown Living Tour before I had to do my duties as "Tour Guide" on the buses. I'll post the pictures soon.

I agree. Lofts @ Maywood should help start to fill that gap, and if the Midtown Renaissance projects go residential, hopefully they will too. Is Seiber going to be for-lease or for-sale?

I'm confused. Where will the Maywood Lofts be in relation to Maywood Brownstones? What kind of prices are we talking that will help fill the affordibility gap? I want some good news after hearing all these outrageous prices and rental rates today.

they will be directly south of the brownstones, quite a bit of foundation work is starting to peek up now. if you're ever in the area, drive over a block south and you'll see it. They start at around $115k

Not necessarily to change the subject (sorry), but I was thinking about the comment that mentioned Tulsa could support NHL.

Im not too familiar with the NHL but I am aware that OKC is more of a hockey town than tulsa is and certainly OKC has the numbers and 'interest' if you will to make it happen.

Now this is not to get into a pissing match or anything, but I want to bring up a good point. How could Tulsa support the NHL with OKC getting the NBA?

I think from an idealistic standpoint, it would be GREAT for this to happen. Both cities having a major league team. BUT, since the NHL schedule just so happens to coincide with much of that of the NBA - (and realizing that Tulsa could NOT support the NHL by itself);

I think we have to be realistic with this fact. Would OKC people go up to Tulsa to help support the team when the NBA is in town? Arguably, the NBA is a bigger draw and OKC is a bigger draw than Tulsa.

Not to take away from what they are trying to do, by far - but I think we should shoot for another sport for Tulsa. Something that does not compete with the NBA, so OKC people can help support it.

At first, I thought about MLS - but I remembered that OKC/Edmond is actively trying to get a team (so they may not put two teams in the state) and I also am aware that MLS is an outdoor sport so that would not do the new arena up there any good.

So, I thought about it. How about AFL?

I know people might say, OKC is the largest city so IT should have the AFL. And that may very well be. But, when you consider that AFL does not necessarily compete with the NBA and that Tulsa might have the numbers to support a team on their own - that could be something for them to consider.

One other thing that could be considered is - OKC has had to wait how long before it gets a team? (at least 15 years, at least 8 years after Ford Center was built). That should be a BEST CASE rule-of-thumb scenario for Tulsa: It may/will take some time to lure a major league team. They need to understand, you don't always have to get what OKC has or try to prove anything, work with what you got and make the city better.

I do strongly prefer though, that IF Tulsa were to get an AFL team (which I think could work up there) that OKC drops out of the AF2 - because that would be horrible to have your little sister with a higher team than you. Ditto that IF for the NHL, OKC should drop the CHL.

That aside, I do hope Tulsa can work things out with the teams they currently have FIRST!

HOTROD, you do make some good points. Here's some food for thought. Diehard hockey fans (the Blazers loyal) would definitely make the drive to Tulsa for an NHL game. Most casual NBA fans, probably would not, at least not more than once. If Tulsa barely supports their CHL compared to our team, I don't see them hosting the NHL until they build more momentum, hopefully after their new arena opens up and they see a similar resurgence in their downtown. Keep in mind, our downtown is still young and not a ton to do, but we're still light years ahead of Tulsa on the entertainment front. We still have a long way to go and Tulsa has further. I agree with you, if Tulsa wants to compete indirectly, they should go after a summer sport. I think both Tulsa and OKC could support MLS at the same time.

Saw this editorial online today - must have been an editorial in the Oklahoman? Either way it speaks very well to the OKC/Tulsa "rivalry."

May 09, 2008 (The Oklahoman - McClatchy-Tribune Information Services via COMTEX) -- -- CAPITAL envy, which has been on the back burner in Tulsa since voters there passed a MAPS-style capital improvements program, boiled over last week after Forbes magazine named Oklahoma City the most recession-proof big city in the land.

A dismissive Tulsa newspaper editorial claims Oklahoma City topped the Forbes list "probably" because of its large government employee base. This is an oft-heard lament regarding the capital city, whose development is a decade ahead of Tulsa's largely because of MAPS and the private investment it's attracted.

Forbes doesn't mention government employment. Were that "probably" the reason for a city's recession-proof status, Washington, D.C., would lead the list every year and the rest of the list would be all be state capitals.

The conventional view is that Oklahoma City had an inferiority complex vis a vis Tulsa and Oklahoma had an inferiority complex vis a vis the nation. The latter has been assuaged by the success of OU football and Oklahomans who became famous. The former was obliterated by the rebirth of Oklahoma City in the wake of MAPS.

The relationship between Oklahoma City and Tulsa has evolved into a big brother-little sister equation, with the sister occasionally squeaking her high-pitched frustration with the older sibling. The headline on the Tulsa World editorial was "Recession proof?" The question mark speaks volumes, marginalizing the report and challenging Oklahoma City to put up or shut up.

We choose to put up with this sniveling because we think Tulsa's accomplishments are mighty and beneficial to the entire state. We wish Tulsa's opinion leaders shared our sentiments instead of retreating into petty provincialism.

The second-largest employer in Tulsa is a government entity -- public schools -- and the next two are nonprofit medical complexes. So profit-centered jobs don't exactly dominate the employment picture in Tulsa.

Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. In Tulsa it's a default setting.

That is a nice aerial of the boathouse.. nice green grass, colorful river... the only problem is the trash at the top.