David Glover - Reverse Robin Hood * Sonics $60-100 Million Subsidies from Politicians (http://reverserobinhood.com/) for documents, spreadsheets and explanations.

On April 18th the NBA owners will vote on relocation – If the legislature waits until after that time to consider tax subsidies they may save Oklahoma $60-100 million, if the NBA owners votes “no” on relocation – Oklahoma City residents will discover they were massively scammed and still the Sonics Owners can ask again for rebates. A simple smart solution. Why the hurry - really?

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David Glover - Reverse Robin Hood * Sonics $60-100 Million Subsidies from Politicians (http://reverserobinhood.com/)

I see your still enjoying your 15 minutes of fame...Did you read Stern's and relocation committee's comments? They said there would be no way possible an NBA team would have moved here if we didn't vote YES on the Ford Center vote.

From Darnell Mayberry's article in the Oklahoman

"There's just something about being in the room with all of the people who are in charge," said Stern, adding that Oklahoma City would have "no chance" of landing an NBA team if voters didn't approve $121 million in tax funding on March 4 to go toward renovating the Ford Center.


I believe you claimed otherwise. Have any quotes to back up that statement?

What would they say? "Yeah the citizens were duped, they didn't need to do it, " Stern told the AP something very different previously.

I see you bypassed the new subsidy information on the $60-100 million tax rebate that takes money away from the budget and hurts all Oklahomans.

"NBA commissioner David Stern said during an April visit that the Ford Center, which cost only $89 million to build, did not necessarily need upgrades to host an NBA team permanently." AP ESPN - OKC mayor calls on public support for $100M spending proposal - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3163932)

As I turn and walk away and ignore more stupidity spouting from glover's mouth.

Have yet to hear the entire relocation committee voted for relocation only the subcommittee that visited. Any link or hard evidence otherwise?

You know I am constantly amazed at how elementary school has failed students in learning basic fairy tails. Many people think Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor. That is simply wrong. Robin Hood stole from the government and gave to the tax payer. Get you fairy tails correct D.G.

The analogy works perfect, this is $60-100 million that will be available for Oklahoma - which steals from every taxpayer, the government steals from the taxpayer and gives to few owners - perfect, thank you, this works even better than I thought!

How's the higher tax rate in THE VILLAGE? Maybe you should work on getting it lowered to match OKC's.

This $60-100M windfall you speak of doesn't even exist without the NBA being here. Are you suggesting the employees of the SONICS and other spin off jobs job created will not generate State income tax revenue? Does quality jobs reflect a 100% rebate or some other percentage based on payroll? You think 5K contribution to a legislator can by a whole lot?

From what I understand, the NBA meets the requirements for the Oklahoma Qualitiy Jobs Program. It's on the up and up. The taxpayers are paying the same regardless (not being robbed), this is just a minor allocation of funds...get over it.

Your right it is around a 1/10 of a percent higher than OKC, Oklahoma City officials determined for Ford Center renovation TAX will cost the average resident who lives inside Oklahoma City $150. Nothing could be more important to some people.

Again David, that's assuming businesses or visitors don't pay any taxes, which we know isn't true.

Actually the NBA does NOT QUALIFY for Quality Jobs Program. The legislature has to change the law so the Sonic Owners can get $60-100 million in tax rebates. Please read the PROPOSED amendments to the law, David Glover - Reverse Robin Hood * Sonics $60-100 Million Subsidies from Politicians (http://www.reverserobinhood.com) reverserobinhood dot com

No one has answered this question: Why not wait until after the 18th? Much maybe gained for the State and nothing lost for the Sonics they can just come back to the Legislature - Oh, it would expose the OKC tax vote as a scam if the NBA said no.

Keep talking around the question. Seems no one wants or can answer it.

Your right it is around a 1/10 of a percent higher than OKC, Oklahoma City officials determined for Ford Center renovation TAX will cost the average resident who lives inside Oklahoma City $150. Nothing could be more important to some people.

What about all the people OUTSIDE of OKC (like you) that pump $$ into Bricktown, etc. The FC needs improvements. Really bad. Dude you lost. Pack up the bags and move to Amarillo.

You might have mis-read my post, outside OKC $ is included in the city's figure of $150 per resident, yes outside money comes in about 30% the other 70% works out to $150 per average resident inside living in the boundaries of OKC, try again.

ANS MY Questions

Getting the NBA here will have more of an economic impact than our being concerned about tax collection and making sure they pay their fair share; I understand where Mr. Glover is coming from; however, I don't believe he sees the bigger picture.

Having an NBA team will enhance Oklahoma City and Oklahoma in more ways than one. So we lose the opportunity to garner $60 to $100 million in taxes collected, but we gain in other areas that people don't see to be just as tangible.

There will be spin-offs having the NBA here, we will align with only 28 other communities having teams, that's a novelty--NewYork-New Jersey and Los Angeles- ( two teams each).

Mark Cuban is disturbed, and here is why? According to AAA there's an estimated 300,000 Okies living in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex-- many will want to support that new Oklahoma NBA team and travel the 2 1/2 hour drive north on I-35.

When I lived in Fort Worth, I put a down payment on NHL tickets anticipating that we had an NHL team in Oklahoma's immediate future, a last hour commitment from Nation-wide Newspapers (corporate firm in Columbus) helped Columbus snatch the grand prize from our jaws--Columbus had voted down two previous referendums to build facilities and it looked as though an NHL expansion team was doomed there.

Our then mayor Ron Norick got a call from the NHL and was told to get a press conference ready for the coming Monday. Finally, the chilling bad news--the final team was awarded to Columbus.

Our media markets was a concern, they didn't buy the Tulsa market scenario, and they didn't think that we could build an NBA quality area with$90 million.

I've since move back to OKC because my heart has always been in Oklahoma.

Cuban is looking at the market stand point. He knows that is not in his best interest. He claims that OKC is a small media market; however, he fails to recognize the OKC-Tul markets as one whole.

When I learned that %20 of the Season Tickets for the Hornets were sold in Tulsa, I felt that was just as impressive as OKC buying 12,000 season tickets in three weeks. I think that is more of a concern for Cuban that he won't readily admit.

Let's look at what will accumulate down the road--an NBA team will help improve the image of quality of life in OKC something we didn't know the meaning and importance of some 15 years ago.

Well said Laramie.

David, just out of curiosity, how much have you spent in time, website domains, and anti-Ford Center vote campaigning? I bet you could come up with your $150 right there, not to mention the taxes you paid on any of that stuff. You also never conveniently mention that it's not a tax raise, but an extension of the tax we're already paying, and the city has a rebate program for those in poverty or on Social Security. I'm all to hearing both sides, but the other side has given you credit, and I don't see where you gave the other side credit where it's due.

Read the amendments David Glover - Reverse Robin Hood * Sonics $60-100 Million Subsidies from Politicians (http://www.reverserobinhood.com) Basically the Quality Jobs for the other 490 require an equal amount of payroll tax to offset rebates - for only industry code 711211 Oklahoma Income tax is not required for the establishment to benefit - why?. People are missing the point - Why not wait? The Ford Center tax is a done deal - no matter if they come or not, the discussion is now about the legislature. Web domains cost about $10, hosting is free.

Still waiting for an answer, Why not wait and possibly save the state $60-100 million?

Your right it is around a 1/10 of a percent higher than OKC, Oklahoma City officials determined for Ford Center renovation TAX will cost the average resident who lives inside Oklahoma City $150. Nothing could be more important to some people.

Speaking of fairy tales. Give that $150 thing up. We all know it's artificially elevated because of sales taxes paid by businesses in OKC. The average person pays about $27 in sales tax annually for the Ford Center renovation. If you would be honest, and stop posting videos of yourself, you might get a more responsive audience.

David I can see where you're coming from as far as wanting to look out for the citizens of OKC, but I disagree with you. I don't know you so I really can't make a judgement call as far as your concerned. But I can make a judgement call as far as who you run with. I went to school with Steve Hunt and knew him as an adult as well and that is one guy who said bye-bye to reality a long time ago. Now I'm not telling tales out of school since I knew him personally - he is way out on a limb and has been for a long time. So by that measure, if you think his ideas are in any way sane, make sense and/or have credibility, you're either blind or just as weird as he is.

My thought is, although he probably agrees with your views on the tax for the Ford Center, he is really just in it for his fifteen minutes of fame and to get on tv as that seems to be his modus operandi in all that he does. Last I heard from a mutual friend of his is that at the age of 37 or 38 he still waits tables to earn just enough money to travel to places to get on tv and make a fool of himself with his twisted sense of humor.

Betts, that $27 is a far cry from the $150 number the city uses, even the lobby firm estimate of $35 for seniors on a fixed income is higher than your $27 number, where did you get the $27 number? On, Steve I only met him recently. He does not work at a restaurant or wait tables. He does care about media consolidation and corporate welfare programs. HOK is doing the practice facility - nice catch. I was talking about the arena.

Still no one wants to tackle the question, "why not wait and possibly save the state $60-100 million?"

We are talking $60-100 million over 15 years. That is at the most, less than $7 million a year. Whoopee.

$7m? I make that everyday. hahaha no i wish.

Today-Oklahoma Gazette article - On Quality Jobs and Sonics Subsidies (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/1916/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA) This is just a synopsis - the one in print has more detail.

Betts, that $27 is a far cry from the $150 number the city uses, even the lobby firm estimate of $35 for seniors on a fixed income is higher than your $27 number, where did you get the $27 number? On, Steve I only met him recently. He does not work at a restaurant or wait tables. He does care about media consolidation and corporate welfare programs. HOK is doing the practice facility - nice catch. I was talking about the arena.

Still no one wants to tackle the question, "why not wait and possibly save the state $60-100 million?"

I told you where I got the $27 a while back. $42,000 median family income in OKC. If you assume a family of four, and estimate 25% of their income is spent on taxable items, which is probably too high anyway, that is $10,500 of taxable spendings. That comes out to $105.00 for the family, and if you divide it by four, it's a little over $26 per person. If you drop it down to a family of 3, it comes out to about $34 per person.

The elderly on a fixed income can apply for the sales tax credit, which, if I remember correctly, was designed to help them with the original MAPS tax. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I cannot find a link to prove that. Actually, a family of two or more making less than $50,000 a year can apply for the sales tax credit as well, so those making the median family income are due a credit.

Why not wait for what and save the state $60 to $100 million? The BOG meeting? This is the way I look at it, David. Thousands of my tax dollars are spent on all sorts of things I either don't care about or don't agree with. I happen to like sports and I like the NBA, so this is one thing my tax dollars are spent on that I actually agree with. I'm fine with all of this.

If I were you, I'd fight the joint strike fighter. Do you know how much we're going to spend on that airplane? We could probably do most of the bomb dropping with drones, if we need to drop bombs at all. There's some big tax money. Or the war. Both far more noble to fight than an NBA team.

Ah, it is your own figures - numbers by "betts". I will go with the City's Finance Department and their Economist.

We are talking $60-100 million over 15 years. That is at the most, less than $7 million a year. Whoopee.

where's dustbowl, the online trader guy, I bet he makes that in a day :congrats: . He's the type of guy that would get on David Glover's team.

I don't care where you got the numbers, are you trying to tell me the average family of four in OKC spends $60,000 a year intaxable goods. I'm sorry but you know that is not true.

Give it up, Glover.

Why don't you protest MAPS for Kids and tell us why building new gyms in the OKC schools are bad for kids. :rolleyes:

You guys are funny. I lay out a reasoned argument and the attacks come from all sides, in all forms - except discussing the basic premise. The legislature could hold on the vote and possibly save $60-100 million for the state budget. The NBA owners will probably allow for relocation anyway, and if they don't, you find out that OKC was scammed. The owners can go back the legislators and ask again. Of course no one wants to believe they could have possibly been scammed - better to give into the subsidy so we don't have our perceptions challenged.

Newsflash...Nobody cares about a measly $7 million a year. Just like they don't care about the pocket change MAPS tax they are ALREADY paying.

Out of curiosity, as you appear to hold strong views on the subject, how many legislative office doors at the capitol have you personally knocked on to implore those who have a say joining your position, to hold off a vote

Have you personally gotten face to face with your representative and your senator?
Have you personally gotten face to face with all, even part, of the primary bill authors in each chamber?
Have you personally gotten face to face with house or senate leadership?
If not, why? is it a lackof access or is it something else.
I have no axe to grind with you, or about you. But this team coming to town does appear to raise your hackles, and you are putting yuourself out there.
So other than a few you tubes and some low cost webspots, just what is your commitment level and action plan to date to bringing the result you seek.

Hi Kevin,

Great Questions, You are probably going to be disappointed in the answers so here goes:

Out of curiosity, as you appear to hold strong views on the subject, how many legislative office doors at the capitol have you personally knocked on to implore those who have a say joining your position, to hold off a vote

-- 70-80 doors talked with many left information for the others, dozens of phone calls to others and many more emails.

Have you personally gotten face to face with your representative and your senator

-- Yes, with Rep and scheduled meeting with Senator tomorrow. I have also called them both twice.

Have you personally gotten face to face with all, even part, of the primary bill authors in each chamber?

- - tried many times, they never have the time I have talked to all of their staffs, did talk with Benge for 2 minutes, after he spoke for 10+ minutes in front of comm. and I was able to speak for 1 minute.

Have you personally gotten face to face with house or senate leadership?
- - leadership is similar to authors, I have talked with Corn on 4 occasions.

If not, why? is it a lackof access or is it something else.
- - neither I am sure I have done way more than you expected, you shouldn't have assumed.

I have no axe to grind with you, or about you. But this team coming to town does appear to raise your hackles, and you are putting yuourself out there.
- - there is nothing wrong with the team, Read Free Lunch by David Cay Johnston NYT Pulitzer winner. NBA economics and desire for taxes and subsides I think are bad for the cities and most citizens.

So other than a few you tubes and some low cost webspots, just what is your commitment level and action plan to date to bringing the result you seek.
-- pretty high, see above. Thanks for asking I appreciate your thoughts - really.

Ah, it is your own figures - numbers by "betts". I will go with the City's Finance Department and their Economist.

Which make perfect sense. You're using the city's economist because it suits your purposes, even though it's fiscally impossible for the average family of four to spend $60,000 a year on taxable items. That would given them an estimated income of about $250,000.

Why don't you call the city Finance Department and economist and ask if any of the sales taxes paid by businesses for paper products, computers, printers, office furniture, etc are part of the city's collected taxes, and whether those numbers are removed prior to making their calculations of estimated expenses.

You guys are funny. I lay out a reasoned argument and the attacks come from all sides, in all forms - except discussing the basic premise. The legislature could hold on the vote and possibly save $60-100 million for the state budget. The NBA owners will probably allow for relocation anyway, and if they don't, you find out that OKC was scammed. The owners can go back the legislators and ask again. Of course no one wants to believe they could have possibly been scammed - better to give into the subsidy so we don't have our perceptions challenged.

Who is saying this is designed to influence the Board of Governors? The last article I read said they didn't think the vote would occur before the Board of Governors met anyway.

just so you know david .. lots of people would have voted for ford center improvements without the sonics moving to oklahoma. Improving our city owned facility is good for the city. either way

> You are probably going to be disappointed in the answers

Not at all. I was curious, no more, no less. And as for ...

> you shouldn't have assumed.
well, in a word, ditto. I made no assumptions, I asked questions, including

> If not, why? is it a lackof access or is it something else.
For all I knew, your answers may have reflected higher contact levels than you noted or may have come out as zero contacts for any number of reasons unrelated to access.

I give you props on your level of interest, even though I don't have any significant level of interest in your goal. that's just a difference of opinion.
However, very few folks take the time to knock doors to the level you describe. Whether it steers results your direction or not, you're devoting time to the right players, indeed the only players who matter when it comes to a delay in a particular vote.

I see your still enjoying your 15 minutes of fame...Did you read Stern's and relocation committee's comments? They said there would be no way possible an NBA team would have moved here if we didn't vote YES on the Ford Center vote.

From Darnell Mayberry's article in the Oklahoman



I believe you claimed otherwise. Have any quotes to back up that statement?metro, with all due respect. What does the F.C. vote have to do with this issue? Just asking.

David, I wouldn't ordinarily go "public" with private e-mails, but I will in this case since our e-mail exchanges disclosed nothing "private" in nature, and, frankly, I don't want to spend the time to rephrase to avoid that context. You are somewhat tiring, my friend, no disrespect intended (do you remember the movie "Airplane" and the scene with the nun who hanged herself?). This continues to be such a big deal with you, for reasons that I still do not know. But, I'll try to be complete for accuracy ...


On April 18th the NBA owners will vote on relocation – If the legislature waits until after that time to consider tax subsidies they may save Oklahoma $60-100 million, if the NBA owners votes "no" on relocation – Oklahoma City residents will discover they were massively scammed and still the Sonics Owners can ask again for rebates. A simple smart solution. Why the hurry - really?


David, I don't presently have any strong feelings about the matters you raise either way. Maybe I would if I thought much about it ... maybe I will but probably I won't. In passing thought, I see nothing wrong or harmful with the tax incentive proposal and it might be beneficial ... but it's nothing I'm gonna get hot and bothered about. I already spent that and am a happy man!


Do you know Lynn Howell? At this point I would love the the legislature to hold on the incentive and have the team come, seems like what would be best for 99.999% of Oklahomans. Of course if the team doesn't come it would show that the March 4th tax vote did not have its intended effect.


You and I quite clearly have different agendas.

I'm pretty clear on mine ... I want (a) an NBA team here, but even if it doesn't come, (b) I want a much improved Ford Center. Hopefully the March 4 vote and events since then will cause that to happen.

You, on the other hand, are somewhat more oblique ... you seem to publicly oppose every step in the evolving process ... and I really have little clue about what YOUR bottom line agenda is ... (a) just the issues presented, (b) something more personal. I think that you may be a more "masked" person than I am. Like I've said before, I think that you are a good guy from my impressions of you, and I certainly like and respect your mom, but you do seem to be carrying on this "public" thing a bit beyond the pale, in my opinion. Are you planning to run for the Legislature, or what? I really don't know what your agenda might be. And, that's clearly your business and not mine.

No, I don't know Lynn Howell. I don't want to debate this issue with you or anyone, or, for that matter, "be informed" on the issues involved any more than I am. As I've already said, I have little interest in the matter before the Legislature, and, so, don't want or plan to "get engaged" on this matter. With no disrespect to him or you, as I said in my initial reply to you, this topic is not something I'm going to get hot and bothered about, and, most probably, I'm not going to give it any significant amount of "thinking time." I've got other things that are more important to me to do than this, with all due respect to your passion.

This is an item on YOUR agenda, it is not presently one on mine. Why you persist in this general saga (post March 4 vote before the Council on the Memorandum Agreement, and, now, this) I really am at a loss.
Since you've take the initiative to post here, in OkcTalk, and in the HornetsCentral forums, in identical veins, and since you know that your views will not likely be well received in either, particularly in the Hornets Central forum, I continue to wonder, big time,

Why do you persist in your advocacy so publicly? Do you intend to be a candidate for the House of Representatives and use the NBA stuff as your platform? What's going on here, David? Or do you just like beating a dead horse until it is really really really dead?

where's dustbowl, the online trader guy, I bet he makes that in a day :congrats: . He's the type of guy that would get on David Glover's team.

You're a donk. Burger flipper.

You know I am constantly amazed at how elementary school has failed students in learning basic fairy tails. Many people think Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor. That is simply wrong. Robin Hood stole from the government and gave to the tax payer. Get you fairy tails correct D.G. Kerry, I've been waiting for someone like you to come along. I need some help. My third grade teacher was very old, and had trouble staying awake. This caused her lesson plans, and her teachings to be extreamly dis-jointed, and very hard to follow. She would fall asleep, and when she woke up, she had forgotten where she left off. Many key elements were left out. I was very sad. So, I never fully understood what really went on between Snow White and the seven Dwarfs. Could you please explain.

Hi Doug,

I responded to your email and your questions an hour and half before you posted here, yet you post like you didn't get a response. Tricky and odd.

I guess I thought some people here may be interested about a $60-100 million dollar change to a law that will benefit a few people, possibly without need. I get the message most people here don't care. Maybe no amount could make some people care. I have found when most people hear about a subsidy for a direct competitor - they get it.

I think government should work better and differently for the majority of citizens, you and others think what is going on is just fine.

metro, with all due respect. What does the F.C. vote have to do with this issue? Just asking.

The Ford Center vote made it possible for us to hopefully land a permanent NBA team soon. This tax subsidy David's whining about is for the potential NBA team. He considers both as corporate welfare or handouts to an NBA team.

Newsflash...Nobody cares about a measly $7 million a year. Just like they don't care about the pocket change MAPS tax they are ALREADY paying.Newsflash.... April 9,2008; Today at 2:24 P.M. C.S.T. CuatrodeMayo appointed himself spokesman for everybody.

Well then 95% of the posters in this thread.

Happy?

You guys are funny. I lay out a reasoned argument and the attacks come from all sides, in all forms - except discussing the basic premise. The legislature could hold on the vote and possibly save $60-100 million for the state budget. The NBA owners will probably allow for relocation anyway, and if they don't, you find out that OKC was scammed. The owners can go back the legislators and ask again. Of course no one wants to believe they could have possibly been scammed - better to give into the subsidy so we don't have our perceptions challenged.

David, here is my problem. You don't have a reasoned argument. You have a semantic argument. You are not wrong in your endeavor to raise red flags regarding recent decisions by the state legislature to expand the Quality Jobs Program, but be honest.

Do you SERIOUSLY have a problem with the Quality Jobs Program? We can argue the morality of government subsidies until we are blue in the face, but just in case you haven't noticed, government subsidies are what keeps all 50 states competing against each other. Do you seriously think Texas wound up as the nation's second most populated state by being the good student? Texas subsidized the CRAP out of big business to grow their economy. And that put Texas into a position to exempt sales tax from food and tax corporations less than other states.

I am outraged at Wanda Jo Stapleton by trying to ruin Oklahoma's reputation even further by telling the nation we are making the poor pay more sales tax on food. Yes, Oklahoma taxes groceries. Nothing new. She was a former state legislator that could have made a difference then, but she didn't. Shey may have tried, but she didn't succeed, otherwise we wouldn't be taxed on food anymore now would we?

I have a suggestion, since you and Wanda were so bent out of shape on sales taxes on food, why don't you tackle the problem at the root and MARCH your happy butts to the state capitol and push the legislature to exempt taxes from food? Wait, that would be too easy. Instead, the poor are exploited because you guys want to make your arguments look good.

If you have such a problem with the state legislature, DO SOME HOUSE CLEANING. Get in there and get as many people as you can to vote them out. Otherwise, stop wasting our time.

Newsflash.... April 9,2008; Today at 2:24 P.M. C.S.T. CuatrodeMayo appointed himself spokesman for everybody.

I don't think he appointed himself the spokesman at all. He has simply states obvious facts about this issue.

Keep up the good posts Cuatro

Wow.. I never thought I would say this, but I think David might have a valid argument. The quality jobs program I would think would be best used to lure companies that are not currently planning to head here, instead of giving big bonuses to those that have already decided to come here, beyond the bonus of using a facility practically rent free. Why take away a huge chunk of cash when the legislatures have already said they have to cut back on expenses by about 100 million? I am missing the logic here. I am all for the Sonics coming here, but I don’t think our taxpayers should pay their salaries through taxes. That should be left up to the ticket holders and corporate sponsors.

I think government should work better and differently for the majority of citizens, you and others think what is going on is just fine.

They are...They are helping OKC land it's first ever major league team that millions of it's citizens will enjoy for years to come

OKC is a small market and as such needs to make numerous concessions to be able to compete with the big boys for this highly sought after product

Doug is right. Glover's as much a one-trick pony as Sally Kern.

There's an agenda here and it's not anti-corporate welfare. There's something else going on and obviously most of us on this board are seeing right through it.

okcpulse says "keeps all 50 states competing against each other" and do you know what that does? Makes the states poorer the citizens poorer and the companies richer. Similar to all the subsidies of the 4 major sports - 2 billion a year out of citizens pockets, for arenas, tax subsidies etc and into a very few pockets. It is one way to do business but the playing field is tilted towards certain businesses and owners. I think QJ was probably a good program when conceived, I have spent hours talking with the Dept. of Commerce and the Tax Commission to understand the nuances. I have started looking into the grocery tax, OK. one of the few states left that taxes groceries so heavily.

I think if you knew more about Wanda Jo - you may view her differently. She spearheaded with a small group the efforts and took AT&T to court and got them to rebate Oklahoma citizens $450 Million dollars back in the 80's- pretty impressive. I have not met a harder working, caring person that wants to help people who do not have a voice.

jbrown84 says "There's an agenda here and it's not anti-corporate welfare. There's something else going on and obviously most of us on this board are seeing right through it."

Ok, I am all ears, what is the something else, and what are you seeing right through? Enlighten me.

Well Doug already proposed that perhaps you plan to run for office on the anti-NBA platform.

Another possibility is that you have a personal vendetta against Clay Bennett and/or the other Sonics owners.

Another possibility is that you saw a chance to ride the publicity of a hot-button issue, hence why you disappeared until you found another way to bring up your anti-Sonics diatribe.


In response to post #51, how do you propose Oklahoma, or any other state for that matter, compete with other states without doing these things? If we don't grow our economy, people are going to be worse off in the long run.

Makes the states poorer the citizens poorer and the companies richer

Sorry, not buying it. How do you see that as a logical remark? I make a decent income not just because I work for a successful company. It's because I worked my ass off to get this position by getting an education and having a passion for what I do. State subsidies in Texas didn't stop me.

States aren't getting poorer. Citizens in general aren't getting poor unless they explicitly place themselves in that situation, children withholding. But then again most children go hungry because of lack of responsibility by the parent. The stats aren't on your side. Again, do not exploit the poor to bolster your argument. Poverty is a complex issue that involves more than throwing dollars at the problem. There are many different ways someone is poor. Lack of opportunity. Lack of education. Drug abuse. Child abuse. It's simply a problem you can't throw money at.

Are there crooked CEOs out there? Absolutely. But that is another fight. Besides, crooked CEOs crumble. It's in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sure Wanda did great things. I remember that lawsuit, and that was the 1990s. The rebates came in the mail in 1995. But her argument on grocery tax still disgusts me. Sorry, but there isn't a way to justify that. Bottom line... did she get food exempt from sales taxes while in office? The answer still stands... and that's a no.

As far as you looking into sales tax on food goes, I encourage you to fight it. But fight it hard. In any case, I still laugh at the fact that Texas doesn't tax staple foods and our grocery bill is still higher than in Oklahoma, even at Wal-Mart.

"you plan to run for office" Nope

"personal vendetta against Clay Bennett and/or the other Sonics owners." Nope

"Another possibility is that you saw a chance to ride the publicity of a hot-button issue.." Nope, just the one I understand the best right now.

okpulse - think for a moment, you will get it, sports is taking 2 billion in subsidies from the taxpayers - I would suggest leaving more in the pocket of avg citizens is a better way to stimulate the economy - everyone is richer except a few people.

So what Wanda wasn't successful on grocery tax reduction when she was in office - does that make it off limits now? If you understand the nature of regressive vs. progressive taxation - you would probably be against a grocery tax like most states. Oklahoma is one of the best overall states for low taxes. I would suggest less burden on the poor and middle income is more my philosophy.

Hi Doug,

I responded to your email and your questions an hour and half before you posted here, yet you post like you didn't get a response. Tricky and odd.

I guess I thought some people here may be interested about a $60-100 million dollar change to a law that will benefit a few people, possibly without need. I get the message most people here don't care. Maybe no amount could make some people care. I have found when most people hear about a subsidy for a direct competitor - they get it.

I think government should work better and differently for the majority of citizens, you and others think what is going on is just fine.

I've just now noticed the "response" e-mail you mentioned. Trust me, David, I don't hang around my e-mail inbox just waiting for your replies. Feel free to post it here, if you want. As I said, and I have no wish to spend further time with it. Call that "tricky and odd," if you want. Quite frankly, I find this discussion to be untantalizingly similar but nonetheless akin to the situation in the movie "Airplane," when the nun hung herself because she couldn't escape her next-seat passenger in any other way. Now ... where did I put that noose ... Oh, I forgot ... I'm looking forward to going to the new and improved Ford Center, no thanks to you, before an NBA team owned by local owners, no thanks to you ... I guess that I'll wait to die a natural death ... no thanks to you!

The last time someone came on a board (Oklahoma's Own) , with view similar to Mr. Glovers, he was very open about his intentions. I believe he ran for county commissioner--now residing in the county...

The Board of Governors vote in mid april will be a slam dunk. IF by some reason, the BOG votes no, the legislators can undue all this the next session.

Had we not voted for the upgrades and improvements to the Fabulous Ford Center, and the NBA said, "NO," the NHL wouldn't have hesitated to revisit Oklahoma City.

okpulse - think for a moment, you will get it, sports is taking 2 billion in subsidies from the taxpayers - I would suggest leaving more in the pocket of avg citizens is a better way to stimulate the economy - everyone is richer except a few people.

So what Wanda wasn't successful on grocery tax reduction when she was in office - does that make it off limits now? If you understand the nature of regressive vs. progressive taxation - you would probably be against a grocery tax like most states. Oklahoma is one of the best overall states for low taxes. I would suggest less burden on the poor and middle income is more my philosophy.

In America, $2 billion doesn't stimulate the economy. On a per capita basis, that's $6 out of everyone's pocket in this country. Don't get me wrong, I get your argument on America's obsession with subsidized sports. There are 5 professional leagues here, all paying inflated salaries to coaches and players. I'm with you there.

I never said it was off limits. When did I say that? I'm saying she used tax on groceries when making her argument against this very specific election. Big mistake. I do understand the nature of regressive vs. progressive taxes, but in order to accomplish the tax system we all desire, it will involve a complete rewrite of the state's tax system. If Oklahomans hate property taxes so much - as they do - sales taxes will always be hanging around.

Now here's a question... let's assume we weren't getting an NBA team, and the Ford Center renovations wound up on the MAPS 3 ballot. Would you have still opposed the renovations? You obviously couldn't use the argument that Oklahoma City is subsidizing the rich. What would be your story in that situation.

I strongly believe the poor need all the help they can get, but I also believe that life has to go on. Oklahoma City has an obligation to create an environment people want to be in. It has to create an environment that is desirable for people and companies alike. And more jobs in the metro equals more opportunities for the poor to get out of poverty. There has to be balance, or else thriving as a whole just isn't possible. Pro sports doesn't need to be around to prove a city is great, but pro sports does provide opportunities for the city to gain better national exposure, something that has been a challenge for us for a long time. It is an additive to our quality of life, and people take that into consideration upon relocation. That's the reality.

Don't worry they are coming, they just need a little doubt to get as much out of the public as possible.

Court reveals emails from Sonics Owners talking about OKC.

Local News | E-mails reveal Sonics owners intended to bolt from Seattle | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004339103_sonicsheds.html)