View Full Version : First Americans Museum
Rover 05-19-2011, 11:42 AM Maybe the tanking of the economy caused difficulty in the raising of private money. So now we throw a fit and waste a great opportunity and set back a prominent project for the state, or kill it altogether. Sad to see the small mindedness of a few can kill it.
Regarding the overspending, well if it was the result of corruption, please, please, please give evidence, prosecute and get a recovery. But don't kill the project. How myopic would that be?
Kerry 05-19-2011, 12:06 PM Maybe the tanking of the economy caused difficulty in the raising of private money. So now we throw a fit and waste a great opportunity and set back a prominent project for the state, or kill it altogether. Sad to see the small mindedness of a few can kill it.
Regarding the overspending, well if it was the result of corruption, please, please, please give evidence, prosecute and get a recovery. But don't kill the project. How myopic would that be?
If you read the Tulsa World article they are going to do an audit of where the money went. The fact that the legislature said any new money could only be spent on construction and capital improvements indicates to me that previous money was spent on something else. When is the best time to kill a boondoggle? Answer - as soon as you discover it is a boondoggle.
Rover 05-19-2011, 12:49 PM If you read the Tulsa World article they are going to do an audit of where the money went. The fact that the legislature said any new money could only be spent on construction and capital improvements indicates to me that previous money was spent on something else. When is the best time to kill a boondoggle? Answer - as soon as you discover it is a boondoggle.
I think a fair amont was spent on site remediation ...paying for past sins not caused by the construction. Also, most planning and design work is up front.
There is no evidence to show this is a boondoggle. I thought Peter did a good job of summing it up earlier in this thread. Like to see a little meat to the accusations of mismanagement. I will wait to see an audit and explanation before I smear the project without facts.
Some of the money went towards staff, as they have been piecing together the exhibits, working with the various tribes, etc. But as stated, they are not seriously over the original budget; a 24% overrun is not outrageous for this scale of project, especially over a longer timeline.
An audit suggests corruption and/or mismanagement but as stated, everyone knew the approximate costs going in and they aren't that far off. How about a complete audit of the crosstown expressway project? That is WAY more off target in terms of schedule and budget.
This is all mainly political, especially the finger point and claims of unfairness. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with taking a hard look at other alternatives for completing the project.
Its that its over budget, off-schedule, under performing in terms of private dollars raised, and it is still being put in line ahead of other viable projects.
It's been ahead in line since this was started in 1994. It's not unreasonable to want to complete a project that is well along before moving on to another.
Chautauqua 05-19-2011, 02:21 PM I disagree that a 24% budget overrun is acceptable, especially if it accounts to 33,000,000 dollars.
I didn't say it was acceptable, just not outrageous and certainly not out of the ordinary for projects of this scale.
Most commercial projects build in a 20% buffer, even ones that take much less time to complete.
Swake2 05-19-2011, 02:54 PM Some of the money went towards staff, as they have been piecing together the exhibits, working with the various tribes, etc. But as stated, they are not seriously over the original budget; a 24% overrun is not outrageous for this scale of project, especially over a longer timeline.
An audit suggests corruption and/or mismanagement but as stated, everyone knew the approximate costs going in and they aren't that far off. How about a complete audit of the crosstown expressway project? That is WAY more off target in terms of schedule and budget.
This is all mainly political, especially the finger point and claims of unfairness. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with taking a hard look at other alternatives for completing the project.
It's been ahead in line since this was started in 1994. It's not unreasonable to want to complete a project that is well along before moving on to another.
The problem with the finish this first argument is that it’s so rarely Tulsa’s turn for funding. One of the phases of the AICCM was to having matching funds for Tulsa’s river dams. Where’s that money? When the bond issue was passed for the state historical society museum a second bond was promised to benefit the Tulsa area. That bond never happened either.
There’s example after example of the support disparity between the cities that has should have nothing to do with the location of the capital. For example, the Tulsa area has no comprehensive public 4 year university. The Oklahoma City metro area has three. Tulsa is the largest city in the country without non toll interstate access. Tulsa finally has a public hospital, but it’s the city that owns it despite the name on it. When rail service was brought back to Oklahoma City more than 10 years ago phase two of that service was going to extend service to Tulsa within a couple of years. That of course never happened. The I-44 widening project in Tulsa was supposed to take 5 years starting in the mid 1980s. It’s probably 5 years from being done now, if there are no new delays. Highway project after highway project in Oklahoma City has been placed in front of I-44. First it was the I-240 widening, then I-235 and now the Crosstown. Year after year Tulsa sends a ton of tax money into the state with very little return on it.
No one in Tulsa believes that if the Tulsa area legislators back the bonds for AICCM that a “later” bond issue will be passed for Tulsa. If Tulsa is to get the Pop museum funding from the state it is going to have to be tied to something for Oklahoma City. And this certainly is about being “fair”, the state historical society has a number of sites in OKC including that brand new main museum. They have other facilities all over the state in fact, but do you know how many of those sites are in the Tulsa area? Zero.
The Daily Oklahoman article mentioned the IDL reconstruction paid for with the federal stimulus funds as an example of Tulsa getting priority. But that wasn’t state money and it wasn’t the state that applied for that money, it was the city of Tulsa.
okcpulse 05-19-2011, 04:41 PM For example, the Tulsa area has no comprehensive public 4 year university. The Oklahoma City metro area has three.
Swake, I get your point but we've all covered this time after time after time. We get it. If Tulsa is screaming at the top of its lungs for a 4-year public university, where is a proposal. Master plan? Anything? This is old news.
Tulsa is the largest city in the country without non toll interstate access. Tulsa finally has a public hospital, but it’s the city that owns it despite the name on it. When rail service was brought back to Oklahoma City more than 10 years ago phase two of that service was going to extend service to Tulsa within a couple of years. That of course never happened. The I-44 widening project in Tulsa was supposed to take 5 years starting in the mid 1980s. It’s probably 5 years from being done now, if there are no new delays. Highway project after highway project in Oklahoma City has been placed in front of I-44. First it was the I-240 widening, then I-235 and now the Crosstown.
BA got priority over the Broadway Extension. The Broadway Extension (out of towners call it I-235, US 77, etc) widening was proposed in the late 1980s before widening finally began in 1999. And the widening still isn't finished. It won't be until 2017 with the I-235/I-44 interchange is complete. The Crosstown Expressway relocation was proposed in the early 1990s before anything got off the ground in 2003 or 2004. If I-240 was widened, it must have been years ago. It's been six lanes as long as I can remember.
Interstate highway projects are funded with federal dollars, not state tax dollars, so this isn't money that gets sent to the state capital from Tulsa.
The Daily Oklahoman article mentioned the IDL reconstruction paid for with the federal stimulus funds as an example of Tulsa getting priority. But that wasn’t state money and it wasn’t the state that applied for that money, it was the city of Tulsa.
I'll pull ODOT's 8 year construction budget plan for you and we'll see who is getting the bigger share of the pie.
jonno 05-19-2011, 05:20 PM But that wasn’t state money and it wasn’t the state that applied for that money, it was the city of Tulsa.
Correct it wasn't state money, it was federal stimulus dollars. I'm almost certain you are wrong on the 2nd part of your statement. Pretty sure ODOT had the IDL plans created, let the projects and then did the construction inspection themselves. Otherwise the city of Tulsa had better start explaining why they paid for work done to roads that they don't maintain/own. Remember one of Mick Cornett's complaints about the ARRA was that the money went to the states and failed to trickle down to the cities.
OKC@heart 05-19-2011, 08:41 PM I didn't say it was acceptable, just not outrageous and certainly not out of the ordinary for projects of this scale.
Most commercial projects build in a 20% buffer, even ones that take much less time to complete.
This has always been one of my chief concerns was that the extended timelines were undoubtably going to lead to cost increases. Additionally, anytime that you have to cease construction in progress, and the construction crews who were doing the work and were engaged and familliar, are not sitting around waiting for the funding to find a way back....nope the send those crews off to any major job that they can keep them busy working on and when the funding does come back, it costs a great deal more in reorganizing the new crews and teams to re-mobilize and then there is the learning curve and often some rework required depending on the point at which construction ceased. Not a cost effective thing to do at all...as fiscally concervative as I tend to be, with the 90 million invested thus far it would be a supreme mistake to not finish not just what we have started but what has already gotten national attention and has been widely marketed. Yeah I understand the philosophy that says we can't afford it, but the time for buyers remorse is over and we now can't afford to not finish this. Projects of this renown that are not completed will be momentum killers for the area. I hope that this issue will be picked up next year and approved so completion can be assured.
Chautauqua 05-20-2011, 09:06 AM OKC@Heart...I would suggest that there is another option to just swallowing a giant budget overrun. I agree the project shouldn't sit there unfinished, but some choices should be made. I have seen nothing so far, (maybe I missed it) that indicates a scaling back of the original specifications. When the BOK Center went overbudget two things happened: 1) Value Engineering, and 2) Private sector contributions. Basically, tough decisions on finishes and other more expensive items were made in order to attempt meet the budget, and when expensive items like terrazzo floors in the main concourse were sacrificed, private citizens and companies stepped up to pay for those items. I can't see where either one of these things has happened on this project. Correct me if I am wrong.
Kerry 05-20-2011, 09:11 AM I didn't say it was acceptable, just not outrageous and certainly not out of the ordinary for projects of this scale.
Most commercial projects build in a 20% buffer, even ones that take much less time to complete.
What if the estimate you are citing already included the 20% buffer. Now you are talking a 45% over-run.
Chautauqua 05-20-2011, 09:13 AM What if the estimate you are citing already included the 20% buffer. Now you are talking a 45% over-run.
Good point. For what it is worth, projects I have been involved in typically have a 10% contingency.
Rover 05-20-2011, 10:06 AM What if the estimate you are citing already included the 20% buffer. Now you are talking a 45% over-run.
We don't know that to be the case. That would be pure speculation at this point. And if it is accounted for originally it still wouldn't be an overrun of that 20%. It would be an allowance for cost escalation. Any long term project has to guess what that will be as no one has a specific crystal ball. There are hedging strategies on materials, but you have to have money up front to do most of those things. It is normal for suppliers to put escalation clauses into a long term supply contract. Ususally there are limits placed and/or indexes referred to. There are any number of things though that can change the other costs...many having to do with discoveries of site conditions that were previously unknown. Given the way extended timeline of projects like this, all things related to it would not have been bid at the beginning of the project. It would be hard to find suppliers of goods and services stupid enough to do that. Cost escalation is a risk you hope to minimize, but may not be able to. In some cases if you are fortunate with timing you may actually have prices decrease. For instance, such was the case on the Thunder practice facility, the Devon tower, etc. At the time this project concept and general budget was approved all things would not have been contracted for and locked in. To try to make an after the fact claim of misconduct is probably unfair. It is always easy to look back and pass judgement. If there is any EVIDENCE of misconduct or true ineptitude then let's see it and then make judgements.
Kerry 05-20-2011, 11:01 AM In some cases if you are fortunate with timing you may actually have prices decrease. For instance, such was the case on the Thunder practice facility, the Devon tower, etc.
This museum IS under construction at the same time the Thunder practice facility and Devon Tower are so wouldn't they benefit from the same price decreases?
earlywinegareth 05-20-2011, 01:17 PM I would've thought audits were automatically required by law on contracts/funds obligated above X dollar amount. Doesn't imply mismanagement, it should be normal procedure.
pickles 05-20-2011, 01:27 PM Since 2008, the museum has raised less than $300,000 from private, non-tribal sources. After the legislature approved a bond issue in 2008, the director of the project said they would raise the remaining $75 million from private sources and the tribes. They aren't exactly raking it in from the tribes either. Some of Oklahoma's largest non-profits raise more than $200,000 in single events. It is clear they have not been making a concerted effort to raise private funding.
Regarding the private funds, the $40 million in state bonds would have been completely contingent on them raising the same amount from other sources.
Even if the bonds had been voted through, it's difficult to see where they would have been able to get the matching funds.
Chautauqua 05-20-2011, 01:44 PM Regarding the private funds, the $40 million in state bonds would have been completely contingent on them raising the same amount from other sources.
Even if the bonds had been voted through, it's difficult to see where they would have been able to get the matching funds.
Again, what is frustrating about that is that this caveat, in effect, holds hostage the POP Museum, which doesn't appear to have trouble raising private funds. So, in order for either project to move forward, the AICC has to raise 40 million dollars.
Rover 05-20-2011, 01:51 PM I would've thought audits were automatically required by law on contracts/funds obligated above X dollar amount. Doesn't imply mismanagement, it should be normal procedure.
I am sure financial audits are done. However, the audit implied by the Tulsa reps who stalled it implied deeper audits.
Rover 05-20-2011, 01:55 PM This museum IS under construction at the same time the Thunder practice facility and Devon Tower are so wouldn't they benefit from the same price decreases?
Not necessarily. While steel was purchased for the Thunder facility and Devon, most of the work on the museum was site work, planning, etc. Diesel, gas etc. went up while steel, copper, etc. went down. Now, in the last 6 months those commodities have skyrocketed. Timing is everything. This is one of the big threats of delay, unless everyone thinks interest rates will be lower in a year (will have to be paid on bonds), which no-one does, and that steel, copper, gas, etc. will be less, which no one does. Delays at this time will be very costly.
HOT ROD 05-21-2011, 12:23 AM I hope there is a way that both the AICC and Tulsa's Pop museum can become reality. I think the state needs to do more on the cultural front and showcase what people often come to Oklahoma for or think of Oklahoma of - we have the cowboys covered (with the Nat'l Western Heritage Museum), now we need to cover 'the Indians' and Oklahoma's 'Pop music/culture'. I can't tell you how many non-Oklahoma friends I have visiting OKC and what is the first thing they ask - is there some attraction where we can see Indian culture?
without having to go here and there and there.... Oklahoma is not the only state with indian tribes, there are reservations in other states that have tourist offices/options. But with Oklahoma being 'the Indian state', people are expecting a GRAND world-class attraction - this is what the AICC should be.
Is there a way we could have a more concerted effort for a fundraiser, particularly for the AICC targeted at the tribal communities and Oklahoma City local businesses? I think Tulsa has done this before with their museums, so Im not sure they will have much of a problem but I don't recall OKC ever doing a large scale development with donations (save the capital dome).
I agree with others, if even a fraction of the casino/tourism profits were donated by the tribes to the AICC it could become a reality and Oklahoma/OKC could finally have another world class museum (that people are really looking to see). ...
Larry OKC 05-21-2011, 03:52 AM ... I also think something shady has gone on with the $90 million already spent on this project and would like to see where it went before another $40 million is spent. There is no way that mound of dirt and minimal construction cost $90 million.
While I can understand questioning the $90M figure, one could have asked the same thing with the $90M spent on the MAPS Arena. Or the $100M on the improvements. I agree the a complete breakdown/audit of tax-payer funded, multi-million $$$ projects should be SOP.
Also, why spend a penny demolishing it? Sell the land and let the new owners demolish it on their own dime. I actaully have a hard time believing it would cost anywhere near $38 million to remove that dirt.
As others have already probably pointed out, there is more to it than just a pile of dirt. Not quite as bad as the legislator that said it was a multi-million hole in the ground, but close. If not mistaken, the "mound of dirt" conceals a structure inside of it. Along with the other buildings that are in various stages, I can easily see how it would cost several more millions to deconstruct everything.
The "let the developers take care of it" is the same argument that some suggested with moving the OG&E substation. Sure it is possible, but what developer is going to touch it when they know up front, they are going to have to deal with that to begin with?
I see on AICCM's Facebook page that they are in Vegas this week trying to strike deals with developers at national real estate convention.
Looks like they are trying to pull in someone to develop the proposed hotel and commercial development sections of their property.
Hope they have some good luck. But it's a bit chicken-and-egg because until the museum is up and running and they get lots of people to that site, no developer is going to invest.
Rover 05-24-2011, 10:35 AM I see on AICCM's Facebook page that they are in Vegas this week trying to strike deals with developers at national real estate convention.
Looks like they are trying to pull in someone to develop the proposed hotel and commercial development sections of their property.
Hope they have some good luck. But it's a bit chicken-and-egg because until the museum is up and running and they get lots of people to that site, no developer is going to invest.
True, unless there is a developer out there willing to take it off our hands at a reduced price (real value minus deconstruction, etc. costs), and then turn it into a tourist destination - living village and theme area kind of development. Maybe a Disney themed resort in partnership with one of the tribes. Seems far fetched, but $100 Million in incentives goes a long way. I am sure the conservatives would complain about our giving away something, but if we aren't willing to pay to complete it then someone else should have a chance. To sit on it and let it rot would be unforgivable. Let's take lemons and make lemonade. If our state legislators are so short sighted we shouldn't let it affect our city.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 10:51 AM Why give it away - it is prime waterfront property.
Rover 05-24-2011, 11:38 AM It is only prime if someone is willing to pay for it. Right now it is POTENTIALLY prime. People weren't clamoring for that land before. If we want it to sit vacant for 20 years, and if we want to spend millions to deconstruct it fine. But I believe we would be better off making someone a deal and start getting tax revenue and economic stimulous as quickly as possible if the development were right. No one will reimburse us for our sunk expense on something they can't make money from. What is there now has NO value to anyone else.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 12:36 PM That is why I suggested a casino district along the river from I-35 to I-40. Of course there would have to be some conditions to make it acceptable for me.
1. Non-smoking only
2. Full casino gaming/racebook/etc
3. A limit on the number of slot machines
4. Casino has to be on water
5. Open to any gaming company (not just Indians)
6. Tulsa would want a similar district.
Popsy 05-24-2011, 01:02 PM It is interesting that a non-resident would want to impose conditions on a project that would have to be acceptable to him/her.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 01:22 PM It is interesting that a non-resident would want to impose conditions on a project that would have to be acceptable to him/her.
Or for that matter, care about anything that goes on in OKC. However, I do have family there and visit from time to time. I would also like to move back to Oklahoma City with my wife and kids but I don't have much interest in doing so if it becomes a mini-Las Vegas. I wouldn't mind European style casinos but I have zero interest in catering to the lowest common form of gambler - the slot machine player.
Rover 05-24-2011, 01:36 PM The city isn't going to allow it to become a gaming center. Besides, OK is pretty saturated with gaming, at least compared to other states.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 02:06 PM The city isn't going to allow it to become a gaming center. Besides, OK is pretty saturated with gaming, at least compared to other states.
The land doesn't belong to the City. It is state property and the state might have to find a way to get $70 million back.
Rover 05-24-2011, 02:11 PM The land doesn't belong to the City. It is state property and the state might have to find a way to get $70 million back.
The paper specifically reported that if it doesn't progress and the project is ended then the land reverts back to the city.
The state will not get $70 million back. it is sunk money and has no real value as it stands. The state will take its lumps and go on. That is part of the stupidity of the decision to quit funding. They have killed the value of the investment they have already made and they have severly damaged the possibility of others investing in a project they are abandoning. This latest action was just political posturing and provencialism at its finest. Great conservative rhetoric without a lick of common sense.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 02:20 PM The paper specifically reported that if it doesn't progress and the project is ended then the land reverts back to the city.
I missed that part of the story. Like I said earlier though, I look at this like playing poker. Once you have made the bet you can't take the money back. All you can do is prevent further losses. There is no way this museum is capable of generating the type of revenue the proponents claimed it would but the cost to pay back the debt is real. If completed, this facility will be a money loser for the next 30 years an beyond. When is the best time to defund a boondoggle? Answer, the second you find out it is a boondoggle.
I realize some of you might not know what a boondoggle is so here is the definition.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/boondoggle
boondoggle (n): a futile and unnecessary project or work
kevinpate 05-24-2011, 03:09 PM ... Great conservative rhetoric without a lick of common sense.
It won't be the last. Not really knocking the conservabots in noting this. These days, the primary difference in conservabots and liberbots is which pupptermaster gets the gate after the curtain falls.
Rover 05-24-2011, 07:26 PM If completed, this facility will be a money loser for the next 30 years an beyond.
And you know this how? Give us your math that makes this impossible or unlikely. Or is this just an opinion based on not liking the idea.
I have spent a fair amount of time in Europe and have many business visitors here in OKC. The thing they always want to know about is our Native American history and about the cowboys. Their favorite things to do were to visit the Western Heritage Museum and, of all things, Bullnanza. They wanted to know more about the American Indian. This kind of museum could be VERY popular and draw people from afar, if completed correctly. We forget, I guess, that we are known for our wild west appeal, not our cosmopolitan city, or the shopping, or even the Thunder. People like to know and see something unique and locally significant. This museum would provide that. This museum would cover a significant cultural and historical story. How we can turn our back on it is beyond me. It is not about real estate development or pretty structures. It is about history and pride in our state's heritage and telling the story. To not finish it is just petty politics.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 08:20 PM And you know this how? Give us your math that makes this impossible or unlikely. Or is this just an opinion based on not liking the idea.
Oklahoma state sales tax rate is 4% and this place will cost over $100 million. It will have to generate $2.5 billion in economic impact to break even just on the initial construction cost (which was borrowed money and has to be repaid with interest). It will be lucky to cover operating expenses with merchandise and ticket sales. Even the Cowboy Hall of Fame can't support itself.
Rover 05-24-2011, 08:48 PM Oklahoma state sales tax rate is 4% and this place will cost over $100 million. It will have to generate $2.5 billion in economic impact to break even just on the initial construction cost (which was borrowed money and has to be repaid with interest). It will be lucky to cover operating expenses with merchandise and ticket sales. Even the Cowboy Hall of Fame can't support itself.
So you probably didn't see that it is projected to bring in over $3.8 Billion. Not to mention the multiplier effect of the money spent there and the employment it creates. And, a number of hotel rooms, meals, etc.
There is too much generalization and too little research done. It is easier to sell simple generalities to the public than to actually think things through and arrive at a WISE decision. The legislative leaders took the simple and silly way out. I am sure they thought they were being "prudent", but they just came off looking shallow.
Kerry 05-24-2011, 08:53 PM So you probably didn't see that it is projected to bring in over $3.8 Billion. Not to mention the multiplier effect of the money spent there and the employment it creates. And, a number of hotel rooms, meals, etc.
There is too much generalization and too little research done. It is easier to sell simple generalities to the public than to actually think things through and arrive at a WISE decision. The legislative leaders took the simple and silly way out. I am sure they thought they were being "prudent", but they just came off looking shallow.
That is what I am saying Rover - it can't generate that kind of revenue. $2.5 billion over 30 years is $228,000 per day. This place is not going to generate that kind of money. If you belive the $3.8 billion figure then that is $347,000 per day. How is this place single handedly going to generate nearly $350,000 per day, every day, for 30 years?
If it could do that don't you think the Indian tribes would be jumping at that?
Larry OKC 05-24-2011, 09:26 PM Kerry: one of your conditions was the Casino be over water. I know other states have that requirement (in some like Kansas City, they became Riverboat style and in others like Tunica MS, they cut channels etc to divert the water so it would be under the casino area). My question is, what is the rational behind the gambling being over water?
Kerry 05-24-2011, 09:30 PM Kerry: one of your conditions was the Casino be over water. I know other states have that requirement (in some like Kansas City, they became Riverboat style and in others like Tunica MS, they cut channels etc to divert the water so it would be under the casino area). My question is, what is the rational behind the gambling being over water?
It is just a location limiter.
warreng88 05-25-2011, 06:02 AM Future of American Indian museum project uncertain
By Murray Evans
Journal Record
Associated Press
Posted: 04:04 PM Monday, May 23, 2011
OKLAHOMA CITY – Work crews have spent five years building the $170 million American Indian Cultural Center and Museum southeast of downtown. Whether construction will continue is up in the air.
State Senate leaders last week rejected a $40 million bond package to supplement $67.4 million committed through previous bonds. Project developers fear work might stop in August, but they remain committed to seeing the project through to completion.
“It’s not ‘if’ we’re building it, it’s ‘when,’” said Gena Timberman, the museum’s executive director. “That vision still lives on. It’s important we stay committed to the task.” She fears stop-and-go construction will raise the cost of the project.
Work began in 2006, with more than $91 million already spent to date. To maintain construction, the museum received $6 million in federal stimulus money last October, and Gov. Mary Fallin and others supported a proposed $40 million bond package during the 2011 legislative session.
Project officials were hopeful additional state funds and privately raised matching funds would carry the museum to completion by 2015, but the sudden halt in funding leaves major questions: What will become of the museum and what will become of its potential as an anchor for commercial development?
A 2009 study by the Applied Economics research group said the project would create a $3.8 billion economic impact in the first two decades after its completion; state Sen. Dan Newberry calls it a “hole in the ground.”
State Sen. Patrick Anderson, R-Enid, called for an audit regarding the use of state dollars for construction of the project.
Timberman said she’d welcome such an audit and is always open to having legislators visit the construction site, to see firsthand how the money is being used.
The museum is being built along the Oklahoma River, near downtown at the junction of cross-country interstates 35 and 40. The 300 acres donated by the city of Oklahoma City for the museum used to be the site of an oil field, meaning extensive cleanup was required before construction could begin. A visitor center already is finished, along with a 90-foot-high promontory mound, and white steel support beams for the museum’s Hall of the People rise above the landscape.
According to the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority, a state agency that oversees the project, $50 million was used to remediate the site, to build the mound and visitors center, to start work on the museum’s galleries and east wing and for interim debt service. Another $41 million went for more gallery and east wing construction and initial work on the Hall of the People and performance facility.
Critics also say the state’s 39 federally recognized American Indian tribes should help pay for the museum. State Sen. Steve Russell, R-Oklahoma City, noted that “a certain tribe who is behind the Native American Cultural Center just bought two racetracks in Texas for more money than what they require from the state to finish the cultural center.”
The Ada-based Chickasaw Nation bought Remington Park in Oklahoma City for $80.25 million in January 2010 and this month paid $47.8 million for Lone Star Park in Grand Prairie, Texas. Chickasaw Gov. Bill Anoatubby is chairman of the NACEA board.
Through a spokesman, Anoatubby said he was “very disappointed” the bond issue didn’t receive a vote in the Senate.
The tribes maintain the state should fund its own project, because it’s the state that will benefit from the project. According to Timberman, they’ve already kicked in $4.7 million to help cover debt service.
“All along this has been a state-funded project that has been supported by other donors, including Cherokee Nation and other tribal governments,” Cherokee Nation spokesman Mike Miller said. “We’ve contributed what we said we would to the project, with the assumption that the state would do the same. Unfortunately, the state is having to make difficult choices due to budget circumstances. It is hard to expect other donors to put in more money to the state’s project when the state won’t.”
According to numbers prepared by the NACEA, delaying the project by one year will result in a $6.1 million increase in construction costs and $4 million in lost state tax revenues. The state would be liable for the unfinished project and would have to pay for security costs, Timberman said.
Demolishing the facilities that already have been built would cost $38.1 million, the study said. But building something else at the site doesn’t appear to be a suitable option for the state, because the land given to the NACEA by Oklahoma City would revert to the city if the museum isn’t built, city spokeswoman Jane Abraham said.
State Sen. Greg Treat, R-Oklahoma City, said the NACEA once said it wouldn’t need any more state money to finish the project, citing a May 2008 news release from the museum – issued about the time the Legislature approved a $25 million bond issue for the project – that said “The remaining $75 million (for the project) will come from private sources, including American Indian tribes.”
“A false dichotomy is being put forth: that we must either pass the additional $40 million bond, which the agency in 2008 said they wouldn’t need, or we must bulldoze the $91 million investment,” Treat said. “This is simply untrue, and no one is advocating this idea. We simply want to take a closer look at this issue before piling on more debt.”
As things stand now, Timberman said construction on the project will end in August and won’t resume until more funding is in place. It’s uncertain when that might occur. State Senate President Pro Tem Brian Bingman, R-Sapulpa, plans to conduct an interim study this year concerning proposed bond issues.
“We have a lot of capital needs in addition to existing bond obligations that need to be prioritized before we make decisions about additional bonding,” Bingman said.
Bingman, Fallin and House Speaker Kris Steele, R-Shawnee, all have said they’d like to see the project finished, but want to pay for it in a fiscally responsible fashion. They haven’t said what that might look like.
In the meantime, Timberman said museum officials are re-evaluating their fundraising plans. She had planned to use the carrot of the state money to encourage donors. Now, she said, raising money will be difficult, because potential donors don’t want to give money to “something that you don’t know will ever be finished.”
Still, she remains optimistic the museum will eventually open.
“We have one shot at this time to do it right,” she said. “We have one opportunity to brand Oklahoma as the gateway to Indian country. We have an opportunity to provide visitors a rare experience. … We’ve gone too far to turn back.”
Kerry 05-25-2011, 08:20 AM I just can't believe anyone would believe this non-sense:
A 2009 study by the Applied Economics research group said the project would create a $3.8 billion economic impact in the first two decades after its completion
That is $520,000 per day, every day, for 20 years. You would have to be stupid to believe that.
I have a bad feeling about this.
The original strategy of doing this massive project without the buy-in (financial and otherwise) of the tribes may prove to be a fatal error.
Still, at this point it's important to find a way to finish the project. I hope that happens.
Rover 05-25-2011, 08:48 AM I hope it happens, but done right. Failure will become a self fulfilling prophecy if it is finished out in a cut-rate and schlocky way. People will visit something that is done right but pass on something that is obviously not of good value to them. To cut the corners to finish will create a situation where we will have a major investment and no value. Then the negative group will say "see, I told you they wouldn't support it". If you handicap something enough, you can insure its failure. Instead of having a first-class, world-class venue which will absolutely draw people and investment, we are in dange of having the "save yourself into prosperity" crowd make a joke of it.
earlywinegareth 05-25-2011, 09:41 AM Appears to me this project was a half-baked idea from the get-go with unrealistic expectations to boot. I would cut my losses now and convert it to an amphitheatre.
Kerry 05-25-2011, 09:44 AM Appears to me this project was a half-baked idea from the get-go with unrealistic expectations to boot. I would cut my losses now and convert it to an amphitheatre.
Kind of makes you wonder how this thing ever got off the ground in the first place.
Richard at Remax 05-25-2011, 09:54 AM Just seems from the beginning that the tribes didn't want to pony anything up, but after completed they would want all the rewards
Rover 05-25-2011, 09:56 AM Kind of makes you wonder how this thing ever got off the ground in the first place.
Maybe because some people with respect for our state and its citizens' heritage, with vision, with an eye towards creating an important world class destination for the city took the risk to propose it against all the negativity? Maybe because ultimately it is the right thing to do? Maybe because people who REALLY studied the data believe it will work?
Swake2 05-25-2011, 10:09 AM Just seems from the beginning that the tribes didn't want to pony anything up, but after completed they would want all the rewards
What rewards would the tribes be receiving from this?
Rover 05-25-2011, 10:38 AM What rewards would the tribes be receiving from this?
Maybe pride, dignity, respect, honor, appreciation? If people knew the real stories of the tribes that are now here maybe there would be more respect given. It is way too easy to dismiss inconvenient history and to not appreciate the unique cultures that survived. This center could help bring all that and build a stronger, better, more cohesive and proud state. The individual tribe centers may tell their story in a great way, but having all represented together as part of our state tells a powerful story of unity despite diversity of culture. We talk about trying to create diversity by making a strong central city, and yet we oppose this opportunity to show real diversity. It is disappointing.
Swake2 05-25-2011, 11:12 AM That’s all well and good and I don’t disagree with you, but when it comes to actual dollars spent by the tribes none of that means anything. The tribes are made up of some of our poorest people in Oklahoma and you think they should “pony up” money for something that they get zero direct benefit from. The tribes would be taking money that they devote to education, healthcare or housing for tribal members in order to fund a nice fuzzy museum that often is a hundred miles or more from each tribal capital and population center.
Everyone keeps asking where is the tribal money. I ask where is the local money? AICCM is mostly going to benefit Oklahoma City as a cultural and educational tourism draw. It’s time for Oklahoma City, be it the city directly or wealthy city boosters to step in and finish the funding for this place. The state has already given a ton of money to AICCM and along with money from the feds and tribes I think the non local funding portion for the center should be at an end or at least close to an end.
earlywinegareth 05-25-2011, 11:22 AM How the heck do you ok construction starting on a project without securing the funding?
I'm trying to understand the thought processes of the persons in charge. Did they say to each other, "we should start construction anyway, then when (not if) we run out of money, [the state or tribes or rich oil tycoons] will bail us out cuz no way they'll abandon a half-finished project, even though we should all be fired for mismanagement of the public's tax dollars." Or something to that effect.
Kerry 05-25-2011, 11:37 AM What's a matter Rover, do you have the AC contract for this place?
Double Edge 05-25-2011, 11:48 AM How the heck do you ok construction starting on a project without securing the funding?
I'm trying to understand the thought processes of the persons in charge. Did they say to each other, "we should start construction anyway, then when (not if) we run out of money, [the state or tribes or rich oil tycoons] will bail us out cuz no way they'll abandon a half-finished project, even though we should all be fired for mismanagement of the public's tax dollars." Or something to that effect.
It happens all the time...
Kerry 05-25-2011, 12:01 PM Maybe pride, dignity, respect, honor, appreciation? If people knew the real stories of the tribes that are now here maybe there would be more respect given. It is way too easy to dismiss inconvenient history and to not appreciate the unique cultures that survived. This center could help bring all that and build a stronger, better, more cohesive and proud state. The individual tribe centers may tell their story in a great way, but having all represented together as part of our state tells a powerful story of unity despite diversity of culture. We talk about trying to create diversity by making a strong central city, and yet we oppose this opportunity to show real diversity. It is disappointing.
If only the Indians themselves felt the way you think they should.
The tribes maintain the state should fund its own project, because it’s the state that will benefit from the project.
Also, your inference that Indians should derive some kind of self-worth from a state project that uses their culture to drive tourism dollars back to the state is disgusting. The next you know you will start naming sports team after them to show how much you honor them.
Popsy 05-25-2011, 12:27 PM This will not be a popular suggestion in this forum, but I think we should take half of the Maps III streetcar funds and finish funding the project. It will serve a greater number of OKC citizens than what the steetcar running up to 13th steet will serve in twenty years.
pickles 05-25-2011, 12:34 PM It must not be forgotten that they are a state agency. When agencies fail to properly manage state funds, they must be held accountable, even if they are charged with building a nice, pretty thing that we would all love to have ASAP. In 2008 they promised to raise $75 million in private funds. They have raised less than $300,000. I'm left to conclude they haven't even made an attempt to follow through on their promise, but in any case they have proven themselves to be derelict in their management of this project. Any frustration should be directed to the staff.
Popsy 05-25-2011, 01:20 PM (The tribes maintain the state should fund its own project, because it’s the state that will benefit from the project. According to Timberman, they’ve already kicked in $4.7 million to help cover debt service.)
I wonder why the $4.7 million was not attributed to the "other" funding sources.
Rover 05-25-2011, 01:57 PM What's a matter Rover, do you have the AC contract for this place?
LOL. I am not even in the AC business any longer. Am currently establishing 2 companies from LA & Chicago into OKC. I just appreciate the variety and the depth of culture here. Having traveled and worked in so many countries over the years I appreciate the uniqueness and special character of what makes Oklahoma the way it is. I love it here and want to see it not only grow, but to grow better.
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