View Full Version : Amtrak may offer OKC to KC rail service



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Pete
03-21-2008, 07:06 PM
Kan. to mull rail service extension to OKC

TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) - Kansas transportation officials have asked Amtrak to study the possible expansion of rail service from Kansas City to Oklahoma City.

The rail line will look at connecting two existing routes - one that runs from Kansas City to Newton, Kan., the other from Fort Worth, Texas, to Oklahoma City. The study will consider scheduling, the availability of locomotives and cars and whether rail improvements are needed.

The study would be paid for by the Kansas Department of Transportation at a cost of $150,000 to $200,000. It would begin this summer and be completed in the fall of 2009.

KDOT said in a news release Thursday that Arkansas City, Strong City, Lawrence, Winfield and Emporia have expressed interest in the expansion.

FritterGirl
03-21-2008, 07:08 PM
This would be very exciting.

Pete
03-21-2008, 07:15 PM
That would be a fun weekend trip, wouldn't it? Take the train up to KC and hang out on the Plaza.

Hopefully people from Kansas & Missouri would come the other direction, too -- especially to see some NBA action.

FritterGirl
03-21-2008, 07:19 PM
That would be a fun weekend trip, wouldn't it? Take the train up to KC and hang out on the Plaza.

Hopefully people from Kansas & Missouri would come the other direction, too -- especially to see some NBA action.

I'd LOVE to head up to KC. Wonder if the trip is any faster than the drive, which at 5 hours, isn't terrible. I lived in Europe many years ago, and so miss travelling by train. Over there, it is really the best - and most economical - way to go. Plus, it's very relaxing.

And - I agree about it attracting more visitors from Kansas and Missouri. Those tracks to go both ways, afterall.

Millie
03-21-2008, 07:24 PM
Is it really economical? What do you do, when you get off the train? I've lived in several east coast cities and I loved taking the train from DC to Boston or NY, but those places have great public transportation systems. I've lived in Kansas City and they don't- at least nothing savory and nothing I would want to use as a tourist. Kansas City and Fort Worth are both so spread out that I can't imagine that it would be economical to go there for a weekend on the train- fare for two people (or more), rental car/cabs, all the time it takes (Heartland Flyer's schedule looks a lot slower than the drive- assume that the KC train would be similar)...

Don't get me wrong- I miss train travel too, and would probably do this at least once just for the experience, but... is it a sustainable form of tourism?

OUman
03-21-2008, 09:45 PM
^This would be a good option for those not wanting the longer drive to KC if they either used faster trains (and called it the Great Plains Express-yeah I made that one up lol) or if they kept the number of stops to a minimum four or five, instead of the 6 or 7 we have now.

It's not so much about tourism as a mode of transportation, but you have to have better, faster trains. Especially for a country like the U.S. where distances are big.

soonerguru
03-22-2008, 12:44 AM
Millie,

I can't speak much for KC but I went to Fort Worth recently on the Heartland Flyer and it was great. Sundance Square is anything but spread out and there is a lot to do -- and it's only like three or four blocks from the station. The other tourist areas: Stockyards and the Museum District are a quick bus or taxi ride from downtown. We went without a car and didn't miss it.

soonerguru
03-22-2008, 12:48 AM
Also, Millie, the time to get there is not much of a factor. The ride is so comfortable: tons of leg room, clean, modern trains, walk to the dining car/bar car, very quiet and smooth. You can watch a movie, talk to friends, sleep in almost a full reclining position. There's no comparison to any other mode of travel. Plus, when you get to your destination you're not worn out like you are when you drive or have to deal with airports.

Not to mention, what do you do when you fly? You rent a car. Same if you take the train. I'm usually fine to take the bus or an occasional taxi.

With today's fuel prices it is MUCH MORE ECONOMICAL than driving.

CCOKC
03-22-2008, 08:05 AM
I think the most encouraging part of this story is that the study is being paid by the Kansas DOT which tells me that there is interest in people coming this way from Kansas and Kansas City. Also, if this line comes to be, it connects us with more than KC but makes train travel to other parts of the country much more realistic. The Heartland Flyer only connects us to more southerly routes.

Millie
03-22-2008, 09:15 AM
^I agree. I think it is great that Kansas sees benefit to making this happen.

hipsterdoofus
03-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Isn't this a lot bigger than most on here are making it out to be? Its not just to KC - I think once you get to KC you can get to just about anywhere that amtrak goes. My wife and her family used to drive up to KC and then ride the train all the way to Connecticut - this sounds very cool!

windowphobe
03-22-2008, 01:22 PM
My children (and their children) live in the Kansas City metro, so I'd love to see this come to fruition.

Pete
03-22-2008, 06:33 PM
Its not just to KC - I think once you get to KC you can get to just about anywhere that amtrak goes.

True! The main line out of KC goes to St. Louis then on to Chicago.


As late as the early 70's, I know this line used to operate to OKC because I remember picking up my grandmother at the Santa Fe Depot, as she'd take the train down from Milwaukee.

It was really cool as a kid to go downtown and up into the train station... And I remember going on the train with her just to see the compartment and everything.

kevinpate
03-22-2008, 07:38 PM
From KC you can reach Chicago (and danged near anywhere from there to the west, or east/ northeast, evne south to Nawlins.

From KC, or Newton if the extension goes there also or in addition, you can reach LA, or pop off in southern Co and get a transport into Denver and go into the NW, but then going to LA also lets you select an up the west coast run or across the deep sw run, all the way into Florida, where you can go south, or end up north and back to Chicago again.

A myriad of options once the route goes north from OKC into KS.

See the interactive route atlas by visiting amtrak.com and clocking routes then clicking load the route atlas.

happy trails, er, um, tracks to you

Superhyper
03-22-2008, 09:23 PM
This would be amazing! I travel to KC all the time and this would finally save me from the atrociously boring drive.

BailJumper
03-23-2008, 08:18 AM
What would the cost be per ticket?

I took the HF to Texas a couple of years ago and hated it. It took longer than by car and was more expensive than flying. I also didn't find the ride anything to get excited about.

Would be fine for older people, those who don't drive and hate to fly and for people who want to work while they travel.

If the cost was lower than other options and it was faster than a car, I'd be all for it.

soonerguru
03-23-2008, 08:38 AM
Bailjumper,

The speed is fine. You must have ridden on a day in which there was a lot of freight traffic, to which HF must yield. Having ridden it several times, it usually runs close to on time. The freight traffic really picks up south of Gainesville when you're heading to FW. Not so bad on our side of the Red River.

OUman
03-23-2008, 09:17 AM
What would the cost be per ticket?

I took the HF to Texas a couple of years ago and hated it. It took longer than by car and was more expensive than flying. I also didn't find the ride anything to get excited about.

Would be fine for older people, those who don't drive and hate to fly and for people who want to work while they travel.

If the cost was lower than other options and it was faster than a car, I'd be all for it.

I rode in the Heartland Flyer in December, the week of the ice storm-I was to fly abroad, connecting at DFW that weekend, and since there was a second system coming that weekend and I didn't want to get stuck at OKC, knowing how AA cancels flights. I was pretty impressed, lots of legroom, comfortable seats (although the "stuff" in the lighting covers didn't look too good) and only $22 one-way. I thought it was a steal for booking only a few days in advance! Only thing is at the Norman station there isn't a checked-baggage facility, so I was restricted to the two checked bags I had (I put my carry-on in one of them).

And I didn't see just older people, there were kids, a foreigner sitting across from me and several other younger people (if I had to make a guess ranging from the 10s to the 50s age-wise, besides older ones).

The best part about the ride was I had two seats all to myself :D since the load was pretty light. The worst part was I couldn't see for more than a couple miles for the entire trip because of dense fog everywhere. But I would definitely ride it again. And this coming from a guy who is an aviation freak...

I have to agree with you on the faster part though. Too many stops, and since it's speed restricted once it goes past Gainesville-the conductor actually anounced that himself-takes an hour just from there to Ft. Worth(!), that adds much more time then just the part from OK across the state line. If it were faster it would be a great option to Dallas-Ft. Worth. But like I said, I would definitely ride in it again.

kevinpate
03-23-2008, 01:40 PM
Worrying about speed when it comes to trains is a bit like going to Wendy's and wondering why they don't have fine linens on the table. Not what they're known for and all that. :)

OKCisOK4me
03-23-2008, 05:23 PM
and only $22 one-way. I thought it was a steal for booking only a few days in advance!

Because 2007 was our centennial year tickets were 1/2 price through the whole year. They are normally about $45 one-way.



It's still a good deal though. I wouldn't mind the spending that much time on the train. Not only does the HF have to yield to freight and our traffic being lighter above the Red River but you have to think of the time of the year in which you take it.

Grain season vastly increases the traffic southbound as it is BNSF's main route to the Gulf of Mexico. So during that time of year...it could be pretty slow for HF.

Doug Loudenback
03-23-2008, 06:30 PM
The idea of having a Kansas northbound link from Okc has been floated both by Oklahoma and Kansas before ... some preferred the Okc route to go north via Tulsa ... and whichever way it may go it's all very romantic, to be sure.

I've only taken the Heartland Flyer to Ft. Worth once, 2 or 3 years ago. It was with a group for a "retreat" type meeting at Ft. Worth ... we spent our 2 nights at a very fine Bed and Breakfast just south of downtown called the Texas White House (http://www.texaswhitehouse.com/) ... and I surely do recommend it ... and, when not "working," we went downtown and had a fantastic experience. Many people once analogized that OKC & Ft. Worth were similar ... and there's some truth to that, I think. Even today. Both have downtowns that have become exciting, even though, of course, I like mine the best.

Anyway, I can kick myself for not taking more than this one trip on the Heartland Flyer ... it was fine (even though the train has to slow down once reaching the Texas border since Texas hasn't upgraded the track south of the Red River ... the speed can be 79 mph in Oklahoma, but can only be 59 mph in Texas)!

But, in the end, a northbound route, as did the southbound route, comes down to economics. Kansas AND Oklahoma would have to foot a good part of the bill, just like Oklahoma and Texas do for the Heartland Flyer. I do hope that that happens, but, as I said, the idea has been floated before. It is not at all "new."

My brother who lives in Odessa, Texas, is about to venture on a trip to wherever it is that the University of Michigan is located to visit his son who is a graduate student there. He has chosen a round-about-way to get there ... he is flying to Okc to visit me overnight, then catching the Heartland Flyer to Ft. Worth, then taking a sleeper train to Michigan. I can't remember what he said the cost was, but I'm virtually certain that the train cost was under $300. Speed isn't everything, and I'm looking forward to hearing his after-the-fact report. Sounds pretty cool to me.

If you like trains, you might like to start in he middle of my blog series on trains, here (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2007/08/okc-trains-part-2.html).

soonerguru
03-23-2008, 06:59 PM
One thing that is true from this thread: we need a vastly improved rail transportation infrastructure in this country. It's amazing we don't have high-speed rail connecting all of our major cities, like they do throughout Europe and other parts of the planet. That most of Amtrak's track isn't even dedicated to passenger travel says a lot.

onthestrip
03-23-2008, 08:09 PM
One thing that is true from this thread: we need a vastly improved rail transportation infrastructure in this country. It's amazing we don't have high-speed rail connecting all of our major cities, like they do throughout Europe and other parts of the planet. That most of Amtrak's track isn't even dedicated to passenger travel says a lot.

I agree, and with gas prices rising this may change a bit over time, and it should. Imagine being able to go to dallas in 2hrs, KC in 3 hrs or Denver in 5 hrs. Popularity in rail travel would increase immediately. Not to mention that traveling by train is much easier and way more comfortable than by plane.

Superhyper
03-23-2008, 08:30 PM
Well, in defense of the US(although I agree with the above points) we don't have the relatively short distances between major cities and population densities that Europe has which helps makes rail travel economical. At the same time, density is increasing and rising fuel costs are making mass trail transit more and more practical every day. I think the state and local governments here in the heartland are realizing that we need this kind of economic linkage to keep us competitive, so you'll probably see more of these kind of initiatives in the future. Their long-term success, however, depends on people like us actually using it. Here's hoping!

CCOKC
03-23-2008, 08:57 PM
I think we have to change the mindset of people in this country (especially west of the Mississippi) about public transport period. This is somewhat a Catch 22 situation. If more people use the train, bus etc their would be more options but there needs to be more, better, faster, etc options before people use it. When I had an exchange student from Thailand I got to meet youngsters from all over the world who all complained about our public transportation. These kids were not allowed to drive as a foreign exchange student and had to rely upon the kindness of friends and their host families to get anywhere. I especially felt for the kids who lived in smaller towns in Oklahoma who were basically trapped in their adopted home towns. Most of the kids were from small towns themselves and were used to hopping on the train to get to the nearest big city. It is just a matter of priorities because as a rule public transportation does not substain itself and must be subsidized by a government of some sort.

soonerguru
03-24-2008, 08:27 AM
This is the richest, most powerful country on the planet (for now, at least). We spend $3 trillion in Iraq, untold sums on defense systems, foreign aid, etc. Surely there is money for this somewhere. Frankly, it hasn't been a priority. I wonder how much lobbyists have to do with this? I can see no rational reason why we wouldn't want a state of the art public transportation infrastructure in the US.

Kerry
03-24-2008, 09:36 AM
soonerguru - the biggest obsticle to a national rail transit system is distance. I drive 365 miles from Jacksonville to Atlanta every week. If I drove that same distance in Europe I would go through 7 or 8 countries.

soonerguru
03-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Good point, Kerry. But if you look at the Amtrak map, you'll notice huge gaps where rail makes sense. E.g., you cannot go from Little Rock to Memphis. Does that make sense?

A trip from OKC to Atlanta may be better served by air. But Atlanta to Nashville, or Atlanta to Jacksonville would make sense by rail.

In Europe, I've taken some long hauls that were overnight trains; maybe not a great solution for business, but certainly for pleasure travel.

The biggest obstacle I see is no passenger-specific track in the middle of the country. There's just no infrastructure, which is why the schedules are so poor. It's a chicken and egg thing, just like our local bus service. I've used the bus to get to work, but i feel for the people who rely on it. The schedules are just not very good, and there aren't enough buses. This is the primary reason, IMO, more people don't ride.

If you're going to do it, do it, and invest in it so people can use it for work, shopping, entertainment, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to catch a bus after you've had a few beers in Bricktown? Certainly cheaper than cab fare.

CCOKC
03-24-2008, 05:56 PM
I wish the bus stops had signs that actually told you where the lines run. I know the number 10 bus stops right in front of my house, but I have to look on the internet to find out just exactly where the number 10 bus goes and what the times are. Not really practical especially if you can't afford portable internet. I have ridden public transportation in other cities and for the most part you just look at the stop to find out where you want to go what transfers you need to take etc. A sign with a 10 on it doesn't give me a whole lot of info.

soonerguru
03-24-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm somewhat easy. i would actually be happy if they just had benches for people waiting for the bus. There's nothing like having to sit on the curb to wait for a bus when you're dressed for the office. I think this may stem from the thought that only "those people' ride the bus, and they don't need to look nice anyway.'" I love OKC, but we have some weird southern caste stuff happening here.

jbrown84
03-25-2008, 01:08 PM
I've never seen a stop that didn't at least have a concrete bench.

okclee
03-25-2008, 01:13 PM
How many of you reading or posting have traveled on the Amtrak to Ft. Worth, TX??

My mother-in-law did and said she would never do it again.

jbrown84
03-25-2008, 01:16 PM
I've ridden it as far as Purcell. And I've ridden Amtrak from Dodge City to Albuquerque and from Salt Lake City to Winter Park, CO.

okclee
03-25-2008, 01:20 PM
I've ridden it as far as Purcell. And I've ridden Amtrak from Dodge City to Albuquerque and from Salt Lake City to Winter Park, CO.


What was the purpose of you travel?? I could see using it for a unique type of a vacation. But, it you need to get from point A to point B, I don't think it is pratical.

CCOKC
03-25-2008, 02:06 PM
I've ridden it to Gainesville because I was visiting my mom when she lived in Allen and she was driving us back. I really enjoyed it and thought the scenery was quite beautiful and will definitely do it again.

ADCS
03-25-2008, 02:12 PM
Took the Heartland Flyer to go to OU-texas this past year. It is an enjoyable experience; while it does take a while, they do serve adult beverages, which makes it seem much shorter ;). Mainly, if you're happy to not be rushed, it's certainly a good way to get across America. The more Type-A fellows among us, well, the train as it currently exists in this country is not for them.

jbrown84
03-25-2008, 02:53 PM
What was the purpose of you travel?? I could see using it for a unique type of a vacation. But, it you need to get from point A to point B, I don't think it is pratical.

It was leisure/vacation. No it's not the fastest way, but it has an appeal in some situations.

Superhyper
03-25-2008, 03:06 PM
I took it from here to get to Dallas for a conference, it was pretty nice. Didn't have to worry about a thing, I loved it.

OkieHornet
03-25-2008, 03:14 PM
i rode it from FTW to OKC and enjoyed it. it wasn't crowded at all, just a nice leisurely time... i brought on my own snacks and drinks (not sure if you're supposed to), and once i got used to the idea that it wasn't going to be a quick trip, i settled in, listened to some Johnny Cash on the iPod, and had a nice ride...

CuatrodeMayo
03-25-2008, 04:55 PM
OKC to FTW is fine...FTW to San Antonio is a drag. There are many times the train is sitting still in the middle of a cornfield waiting on a freight train to pass. It is a unique was to travel, but not the least bit practical.

soonerguru
03-25-2008, 07:02 PM
I've never seen a stop that didn't at least have a concrete bench.

I have to ask, have you ever ridden our city buses? There are numerous stops without benches or even, in some cases, any demarcation or signage. It's a major embarassment.

I've been told the city does the least it has to do to continue receiving the federal subsidy. I'm not sure if it's true, but our system is a total disgrace for the most part.
Wichita probably has better service.

kevinpate
03-26-2008, 05:49 AM
I've only ridden two lines, and not regularly. The express from Norman and then the route that is Capitol Hill, S Shields Crossroads and back around. As to those two lines, clean bus each time thus far, and friendly folk, though not many folk any single time. If there was a later evening bus back toward Norman, I'd be a regular rider. Taking the bus in and devouring the paper instead of just scanning it is not a bad way to slide through the morning traffic.

OUman
03-26-2008, 06:57 PM
How many of you reading or posting have traveled on the Amtrak to Ft. Worth, TX??

My mother-in-law did and said she would never do it again.

Read my previous post. I thought it was pretty good.

While on the subject of rail, if any of you think that high-speed trains are for the birds, I can only point to Europe and Japan. Many European countries have high-speed rail. Granted, many of those countries are no bigger than the state of Texas, but even if we had regional high-speed service, I think that would alleviate at least some of the congestion at airports and give an option to those who wanted to avoid airports but didn't want to drive 200-400 miles.

kevinpate
03-30-2008, 08:19 AM
If there was high speed rail in Oklahoma, I'd use it. The few rail trips Ihave made were very enjoyable. Pick up some speed to boot and that's a nice way to travel.

transport_oklahoma
04-04-2008, 04:51 AM
During peak periods (Spring Break/Summer weekends), a last minute reserved Amtrak ticket OKC-FTW may be in the $40s, but most of the time you can snag one for $25-35 each way.

OKC - San Antonio is $66 for tomorrow, for example.

At $3/gallon, the train is about the same as the out-of-pocket cost to drive for the solo traveler. Far less than the IRS or AAA full cost of driving.

When you see your state legislators, tell them you want better (more routes, more frequencies/faster speeds) train service in Oklahoma. They still think that we want just roads for transportation.

Amtrak (http://www.amtrak.com)

Oklahoma Rail Home (http://www.oklahomarail.org)

Kerry
04-04-2008, 05:37 AM
I read a few years ago that AmTrak was considering abandoning a national rail network in favor of a high speed regional network that was run mostly by the states. This sounds like a much better plan to me. I drive from Atlanta to Jacksonville every week and it cost me about $120 in gas for the round trip plus the 42,000 miles I have put on my car in the last 14 months. Not to mention the 6 hours of driving each way. If I could take a high speed train for $150 round trip I would. Under the current national rail plan it takes 2 days to get from Jacksonville to Atlanta because the train goes to Charolette. Get rid of the long distance trains and move to a regional network.

mburlison
04-04-2008, 06:25 PM
Have ridden Amtrak a few times... once a # of years ago, from OKC to Jackson, MI. That was cool because of changing trains in Chicago and passing through the big yards at Newton and Kansas City. Here a while back, took the train from Buffalo down to NYC, that was a lot of fun and get to pass through some spectacular scenery... fast too. I think we left Buffalo around 10:30 or so and got to Penn Station not so late in the afternoon. I would love to do the Heartland Flyer when I have a chance, especially since I'm down here in Plano now. Maybe they will eventually put a stop at Denton, that would be a nice place to park'n'ride.

mmonroe
04-05-2008, 12:07 AM
1. Why is there not a car rental place right by the tracks in OKC?
2. This was interesting http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/national.pdf
3. I think the Heartland flyer only goes a whopping 79mph in OK, and 59mph in TX.

CuatrodeMayo
04-05-2008, 01:25 AM
79 mph is not bad for a train on freight tracks.

jbrown84
04-07-2008, 09:46 PM
2. This was interesting http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/national.pdf

We seem to be the only city at the end of a dead end line. It would seem to make much sense to connect to Newton.

HOT ROD
04-08-2008, 01:27 AM
1. Why is there not a car rental place right by the tracks in OKC?
2. This was interesting http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/national.pdf
3. I think the Heartland flyer only goes a whopping 79mph in OK, and 59mph in TX.

I agree that downtown needs some car rental outlets. There is an Amtrak station (and a Bus station) but no rental spots. I assume this might be changing in due time (as I know downtown used to have car hire).

metro
04-08-2008, 07:46 AM
I agree, Brewer's depot shops at the train station would be a perfect location for a car rental place. We really should bug him with emails with this idea. It would be a no brainer and probably not that hard to attract a tenant, with the Amtrak, 4 hotels, convention center, and Ford Center right there.

kevinpate
04-08-2008, 07:52 AM
Nice location for a car hire office. Not sure there's a lot of space to keep cars on hand there.

I suppose the landlord just might have some nearby spaces he could include in the office lease :)

Jesseda
06-26-2008, 08:28 AM
Anymore news on this amtrak to kansas? is it still in the works or scrapped?

Tom Elmore
06-26-2008, 10:16 AM
Credit for the current initiative to extend THE FLYER to Kansas City goes chiefly to one man -- Evan Stair, of Norman, head of Passenger Rail Oklahoma. His hard work in Kansas and Missouri for several years sparked the interest that is now moving the plan along in Kansas state government -- with the support of city governments and citizens along the way.

PASSENGER RAIL OKLAHOMA (http://passengerrailok.org/)

ODOT has drug its feet the whole way -- as it has always done.

Mr. Stair tried "working with ODOT's people" in the vaunted, "grassroots" Heartland Flyer Marketing Coalition -- but the bureaucrats' hand-picked "leadership" in that organization kicked him out -- because he wouldn't shut up about the need to expand the service and manage it as a serious transportation service, not a "party train."

THE FLYER was supposed to have operated between Kansas City and Ft. Worth via OKC from the beginning, its overhead costs covered by revenue from mail and express freight contracts. It was Neal McCaleb and ODOT -- with the apparent approval of the OKC Chamber and others -- who cut the legs from underneath that plan.

Watch carefully, now, as the big shots who have obstructed proper management of the train -- or ignored it altogether -- try to take credit for the dogged efforts of an outsider to make it what it always should have been.

TOM ELMORE

Kerry
06-26-2008, 10:54 AM
For crying out loud Tom. If the sun doesn't come up tomorrow is it going to be ODOTs fault also? As near as I can see the biggest problem with transportation in Oklahoma is that I-40 keeps getting big holes in it and you are more of an ubstructionist to fixing that problem than anyhting ODOT is capable of.

Who are you going to cry to and/or blame when the train service is extended and Union Station still sits empty?

OKCisOK4me
06-26-2008, 11:14 AM
For crying out loud Tom. If the sun doesn't come up tomorrow is it going to be ODOTs fault also? As near as I can see the biggest problem with transportation in Oklahoma is that I-40 keeps getting big holes in it and you are more of an ubstructionist to fixing that problem than anyhting ODOT is capable of.

Who are you going to cry to and/or blame when the train service is extended and Union Station still sits empty?

:congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Tom Elmore
06-26-2008, 11:41 AM
Those who refuse the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

TOM ELMORE

Jesseda
06-26-2008, 11:54 AM
DOOMED DOOMED I TELL YOU, ITS A CONSPIRACY. THE MYAN CALENDAR ENDS 2012 DOOMED DOOMED.. lol whats with this guy and his dramatics?

jbrown84
06-26-2008, 04:52 PM
http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~burrows3/AttentionWhore2.jpg