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Dan L
11-15-2012, 11:32 AM
I park at the Main Street parking lot for Thunder games and have driven by this location many times. This part of Main street could really change for the better if this hotel and the other renovations on the street are completed.

Pete
11-15-2012, 11:36 AM
There is a site plan on Steve's blog (along with renderings):

Changing Designs | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/11/15/changing-designs/)

UnFrSaKn
11-15-2012, 12:07 PM
Also, Spaghetti Warehouse folks might see that they already have similar potential but already have a building that just needs work.

LakeEffect
11-15-2012, 12:11 PM
Probably counting on using the large parking lot in the back.

The owner of the hotel property is the holder of the long-term lease for the parking lot in back - so yes, most likely using that lot for the parking.

TStheThird
11-15-2012, 12:12 PM
Check Steve's blog.

OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/)

Spartan
11-15-2012, 12:26 PM
Wow, that looks really good, I had to double check that it was really ADG and not some imposter. Haven't been this excited about a development in a while.

The intersection at Oklahoma & Main is going to be very urban, very dense, and very vibrant.

Anonymous.
11-15-2012, 12:30 PM
Yea this looks way better than the initial renderings.

Urbanized
11-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Well, ADG did design the ballpark, Nonna's, Wagner Hall at OU and the un-built but mostly well-received Cotton Exchange. Cutting corners on finishes, etc., are generally driven by client budget constraints.

wschnitt
11-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Do this company also own the lot to the east that is currently parking?

Urbanized
11-15-2012, 01:14 PM
I don't think so. Fairly sure that lot is either Federal Corp or belongs to the owner of the quonset hut to the east of it. Actually, I feel pretty certain it is Federal Corp.

Dan
11-15-2012, 02:13 PM
I don't think so. Fairly sure that lot is either Federal Corp or belongs to the owner of the quonset hut to the east of it. Actually, I feel pretty certain it is Federal Corp.

Correct. That is Federal's employee parking lot.

GaryOKC6
11-15-2012, 02:47 PM
Also, Spaghetti Warehouse folks might see that they already have similar potential but already have a building that just needs work.

I have always thought that the Spaghetti Wharehouse would make a great hotel and still allow the restaurant to operate. Actually the restaurant and bar would compliment the hotel.

Spartan
11-15-2012, 03:00 PM
That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

HangryHippo
11-15-2012, 03:33 PM
That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

I like Spaghetti Warehouse as I've made many fond memories in that space so I would hate for it to close. But the spaces above would make terrific apartments/housing.

jedicurt
11-15-2012, 04:21 PM
i like this a lot... i hope it turns out this well when all is said and done

Rover
11-15-2012, 04:33 PM
It's great to have so many hotel in process but it's time we get one or two that are more upscale.

Enough with these HVAC-through-the-wall projects.

:)

Just wish these developers would realize that the lifetime costs are actually less with better mechanical systems. Operational costs are less and the value of the building is increased, not to mention the value as an ongoing business should they decide to flip it. It doesn't have to negatively affect the room rates.

Spartan
11-15-2012, 04:34 PM
I like Spaghetti Warehouse as I've made many fond memories in that space so I would hate for it to close. But the spaces above would make terrific apartments/housing.

I've never been to tell you the truth, as long as I've been an OKCer and with Spaghetti Warehouse being there probably my whole life... but it certainly would be a loss.. and an opportunity for a void.

CaptDave
11-16-2012, 07:35 AM
:)

Just wish these developers would realize that the lifetime costs are actually less with better mechanical systems. Operational costs are less and the value of the building is increased, not to mention the value as an ongoing business should they decide to flip it. It doesn't have to negatively affect the room rates.

I was hoping you would comment on that Rover. Are the initial construction costs so much lower for through the wall to make it an easy decision for most developers? Is it an indicator the developer is likely looking to build and sell in a short time frame? The design of the new HIE is extremely nice and I hope they build it to a standard commensurate to the design.

Pete
11-16-2012, 07:47 AM
The renderings for this project (as well as the under construction Homewood Suites) really minimize the through-the-wall HVAC units but they are more obvious in real life and are the commercial equivalent of window a/c units.

It may be time for the Bricktown & Downtown design review committees draw the line on this practice.

sroberts24
11-16-2012, 08:05 AM
That is my only complaint with this design, but besides that this is so much better than anything we have seen proposed for Bricktown.

Rover
11-16-2012, 09:07 AM
I was hoping you would comment on that Rover. Are the initial construction costs so much lower for through the wall to make it an easy decision for most developers? Is it an indicator the developer is likely looking to build and sell in a short time frame? The design of the new HIE is extremely nice and I hope they build it to a standard commensurate to the design.

Yes, through the wall is less cost on the construction. However, they are less efficient and lose the effect of building "diversity". Central systems almost always are operationally more efficient. Also, through the wall units can be replaced quickly by low-low tech maintenance people. In all, their lives are short and their efficiency deteriorates rapidly.

Another problem for window or through the wall is the noise both inside and outside the room. On a hot day on the exterior of a motel/hotel with these units all running, the street side noise can be very high. In a city where there is alot of street noise, etc. it may not be a problem. Also, if they have direct ventillation through the units into the room, all the exhaust, etc. from the street is pulled into the building. As well, condensation removal can be a problem resulting in the staining of exteriors under the units where the condensation drips. And, as the building ages, gaps between the unit sleeve and building hole can develop leading to unwanted infiltration.

PTACs are not actual size requirement specific, but off the shelf and generally sized. This can result in lower dehumidification, more cycling, and shorter unit life.

Also, if not designed right, there is little or no ventilation or air treatment in the corridors creating cold or hot and stuffy hallways, etc.

All in all it is cheap, but not good.

As for the idea of flipping... hotels are generally sold as an ongoing business, not necessarily as real estate unless the owner isn't the operator. When operational costs are lower and net profits are higher as a result, the value of the ongoing business goes up (multiple of net income). So, the initial savings can be fools gold.

As one developer of hotels told me, inns with through the wall units (PTACs) are motels not hotels. They are just thought of as sub-standard.

By the way, two great alternative products and systems are manufactured right here in OKC. International Environmental (LSB) and ClimateMaster (LSB) are two of the leading hotel equipment suppliers in the world and both are dominant in their product lines. They should be used in more hotels here.

CaptDave
11-16-2012, 09:14 AM
Thank you Rover. I thought that was likely the case. I wonder if design review entities typically consider those aspects of the building design. The street noise alone should be a concern to the Bricktown Associations.

Pete
11-16-2012, 09:16 AM
You would think the a/c would be much more expensive to operate in Oklahoma's scorching summers.

Also, they have to have centralized units for common areas and hallways.

Rover
11-16-2012, 09:24 AM
You would think the a/c would be much more expensive to operate in Oklahoma's scorching summers.

Also, they have to have centralized units for common areas and hallways.

They are MUCH more expensive to operate per ton. Also, with the dust, etc. in the air here, the condensers get dirty quickly and that decreases efficiency quickly. Because you have 200 separate units on a building like this, cleaning is almost never done.

And, the problem isn't just summer. If there is no central system, heat pumps are used and auxiliary electric resistance heat strips are included. This is a very inefficient way to handle the cold.

It is time the standards be set higher downtown.

BTW, when we get into the discussions about "quality construction" on this forum, this is the kind of thing I am talking about that indicates a lack of quality and sustaining construction. There are a million ways to cheapen construction that most people have no idea about unless they are in the business. Developers slap a little granite on some counters and people think it is quality construction. We have to quit settling for construction that is destined to be junk in 20-30 years or downtown will deteriorate as fast as it is rising. Thankfully Devon and SR get it. I hope others follow, particularly on the residential and hospitality side.

Pete
11-16-2012, 09:35 AM
This is also something that is almost impossible to upgrade later.

Even if you wanted to completely gut a building and start over (which wouldn't happen for decades), the floors heights aren't configured to route duct work to rooms.

So, once this choice is made it's almost a forever decision. Even with cheap facades like EIFS and other cost-cutting moves, there are better upgrade options down the road.

LakeEffect
11-16-2012, 09:51 AM
The renderings for this project (as well as the under construction Homewood Suites) really minimize the through-the-wall HVAC units but they are more obvious in real life and are the commercial equivalent of window a/c units.

It may be time for the Bricktown & Downtown design review committees draw the line on this practice.

I don't think the design review committees should have this under their purview. This should be a building code modification.

Pete
11-16-2012, 09:54 AM
I don't think the design review committees should have this under their purview. This should be a building code modification.

Is the building code differentiated by districts?

Because there are some areas (like S. Meridian and along Interstates) where this type of HVAC makes sense.

CaptDave
11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
I was thinking design review may have an appropriate role in locations such as this becuse of the impact the mechanical systems will have in the street environment. As stated by other posters, the noise during summer will be significant and magnified by reflections off surrounding buildings. Just another illustration of the complexity of developing properties like this, but I think OKC is moving in the right direction with regard to its review process.

LordGerald
11-16-2012, 10:44 AM
Thank you Rover. I thought that was likely the case. I wonder if design review entities typically consider those aspects of the building design. The street noise alone should be a concern to the Bricktown Associations.

I went to the majority of the BT Design Committee meetings when this project was first reviewed several years ago, and the subject of the external H/AC units was a primary concern (of the committee), second only to retaining the brick exterior.

Rover
11-16-2012, 02:07 PM
It is a design consideration on so many levels....appearance, sustainability, noise, quality of construction, etc.

How in the world we ever let the hotel by the arena go with ptac units is baffling.

By the way, the owner has the option to use the better systems...it is not dictated by the franchiser/brand. The better brands may prohibit ptac units, but the cheaper limited service brands generally allow them. This is another reason why I keep commenting that we don't want all that many limited service brands unless the owners enforce their own quality requirements.

jbrown84
11-21-2012, 01:31 PM
Huge improvement!! It's like the historic warehouses, but with modern touches.

OKCisOK4me
11-21-2012, 02:07 PM
That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

Same goes for the floors above City Walk. I know there was a plan at one time or another (pre 2009 crash) that called for those floors to be turned into lofts. I'd like to see that project persued again.

LakeEffect
11-21-2012, 02:16 PM
Same goes for the floors above City Walk. I know there was a plan at one time or another (pre 2009 crash) that called for those floors to be turned into lofts. I'd like to see that project persued again.

The continual complaint from the owners/potential developers is that a second staircase would be required by code if it was renovated. The owners/developers think that they would have to build it out back due to existing conditions (the restaurant being part of that). The alley out back is ROW and extends to the building, so they'd have to get permission to close it, something they've been unwilling to do. The explanation seems flimsy at best, but I've heard it multiple times.

This is where education and getting to know people helps. If more owners shared information with each other, which includes renovation techniques, I think Bricktown would develop faster. The property owners need to know each other and communicate. Look at Midtown and Auto Alley. They are both newer than Bricktown but have seen much more positive momentum in rehabilitation, and I think it's mainly due to owners/developers sharing ideas and talking. /sermon

OKCisOK4me
11-21-2012, 02:24 PM
^^true that^^

Rover
11-22-2012, 10:24 AM
It helps a lot that we now have more contractors familiar with the unique challenges of rehab and retrofits, not to mention more architects. The more experience they have the more comfortable they become with their bids and they can bid closer to reality. When they haven't done much of it they tend to bid high to cover the risk they perceive. More experience means they get more comfortable and lower the premium for risk. And more suppliers mean more bidders and more competitive costs.

ChaseDweller
11-23-2012, 11:13 AM
Would love to see the upper floors of City Walk turned into student housing for ACM. My son went there for a year, but hated that no one lived around the school - no college atmosphere. That would certainly help.

HOT ROD
11-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Good point. it would be wonderful to have student housing in BT.

wow - could you imagine (thinking back to undergrad days. ...)

Architect2010
11-24-2012, 05:18 PM
Imagine the insane prices right? I stayed at UCO's cheapest option for guys, and that was old Murdaugh Hall in the center of campus. That room cost me more than my books, supplies, and tuition combined [not saying this is unusual, but for a born-and-raised southsider I'll stick to what FASFA and scholarships can afford me. Lol]. I can only imagine the cost of student housing were it built new/rehabbed for Bricktown. Not even feasible for UCO I would expect. Especially considering they are a largely commuter-oriented school. What other option would we have for student housing downtown?

On edit: sorry for getting even more off-topic. ;P

Urbanized
11-24-2012, 06:24 PM
I know of ACM students living in The Aberdeen, Legacy, Sycamore Square, Deep Deuce and Level. None of those are especially cheap. Some get roomies, and a number of them are working non-traditional students in their mid- to late-twenties. I suspect they could find a way to make it work the days of (most) Bricktown properties being outlandishly, speculatively expensive are over anyway, I think.

Pete
01-14-2013, 03:17 PM
They applied for a $18 million building permit for this project today.

Also, they are seeking final approval from the Bricktown Design Review Committee on Jan. 22nd.

Looks like this could start moving forward very soon.

catch22
01-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Went from the dark cave of hibernation and almost death to a building permit very quickly. Very good to see this move forward.

Pete
01-14-2013, 03:27 PM
Also, see Wiki article above for a bunch of new images from the design application.

Notably, there is now a pool building, where initially there was to be an outdoor pool.

adaniel
01-14-2013, 03:56 PM
Daaayyyyuumm! Between this, the UCO boathouse announcement, and the relocation of OPUBCO downtown its been a pretty good day! And I was thinking things were starting to "slow down"

Love this town!

Bellaboo
01-14-2013, 03:59 PM
Daaayyyyuumm! Between this, the UCO boathouse announcement, and the relocation of OPUBCO downtown its been a pretty good day! And I was thinking things were starting to "slow down"

Love this town!

I just saw on the news where Kirk Humphreys development on Western and the river is being resurrected.

OKCisOK4me
01-14-2013, 04:00 PM
I just saw on the news where Kirk Humphreys development on Western and the river is being resurrected.

Grant you mean?

Bellaboo
01-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Grant you mean?

Kirk was the man addressing the news conference..... on channel 4. They (one of the Ogles) did mention the Santa Monica Ferris Wheel which Grant bought.

OKCisOK4me
01-14-2013, 04:45 PM
For some reason I thought Grant was behind this proposed development. Must have been thinking of the Flat Iron project. Is there a video link for that press conference?

Bellaboo
01-14-2013, 05:00 PM
For some reason I thought Grant was behind this proposed development. Must have been thinking of the Flat Iron project. Is there a video link for that press conference?

I can't find one, but the local channel 4 news is on again so i'll watch.

Bellaboo
01-14-2013, 05:30 PM
I can't find one, but the local channel 4 news is on again so i'll watch.

They completed some environmental cleanup and received a Brownstone award. He said they'd start development soon.

This should be moved from this thread to an appropriate one.

MDot
01-14-2013, 06:53 PM
They completed some environmental cleanup and received a Brownstone award. He said they'd start development soon.

This should be moved from this thread to an appropriate one.

You're talking about The Waterfront, correct?

Bellaboo
01-14-2013, 08:13 PM
You're talking about The Waterfront, correct?

That's probably what it's called, it's on the old downtown airpark site.

MDot
01-14-2013, 08:30 PM
That's probably what it's called, it's on the old downtown airpark site.

Then yeah, that's it. Unless something has changed.

HangryHippo
01-18-2013, 12:36 PM
I don't know why I wasn't able to start a new thread, but there's an article in today's Oklahoman about the Wormy Dog Saloon moving to east Bricktown (http://newsok.com/wormy-dog-saloon-plans-move-to-east-bricktown/article/3746811). The new developments on the east end are already serving as catalysts for additional development and they aren't even built yet. Hopefully the area continues to develop and reach its full potential.

catch22
01-22-2013, 08:53 PM
Holy Express...they want it open by Christmas???

Construction set to begin next month on Bricktown Holiday Inn Express in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/construction-set-to-begin-next-month-on-bricktown-holiday-inn-express-in-oklahoma-city/article/3748228?custom_click=pod_lead_business)

wsucougz
01-22-2013, 09:34 PM
I like the entrance design, and hope BUD doesn't make them change it.

Just the facts
01-22-2013, 09:49 PM
Holy Express...they want it open by Christmas???


They aren't wasting any time are they.

catch22
01-22-2013, 09:53 PM
I like the entrance design, and hope BUD doesn't make them change it.

I completely agree with this.

catch22
01-22-2013, 10:10 PM
I like the entrance design, and hope BUD doesn't make them change it.

I wonder if the BUDC members have ever step foot into an urban environment with historical properties? Many good examples in Chicago and San Francisco. It's OKAY to have new buildings merge the current architectural designs while still reflecting upon the surrounding neighborhood. They are proposing exactly this (which is used everywhere in the world) by building a primarily brick structure to coincide with the district's theme of historic brick warehouses, while also merging in hints of modern-day architecture to compliment the building. This merging will also help blend the transition between the historical canal feel and the modern and new Deep Deuce to the north. This project should not be having the scrutiny it is facing, it is an A+ on just about every metric.

mcca7596
01-22-2013, 11:46 PM
The glass facade is definitely something of a modern touch that is needed in Bricktown.

sroberts24
01-23-2013, 06:38 AM
I love how all these architects sit on the board and trash something because it's not what They would have done had They had this project. Love the entrance.... I know we aren't NYC by any means but almost every remodeled building there has a flare of moderness to them. I do appreciate the BUDC but I can't help but think they are just being picky b/c they wouldn't have done it that way had they designed it. This design gets a 2 thumbs up for me, and like I said when the original plan came out, I am so pumped for this... It will breathe life into a section of Bricktown that is ghostly.