I went to Quail Springs Mall last night, and it appears the mall is going the same direction as Crossroads. National retailers are moving out, and stores like Bonnie's popcorn, Angelwear, Extreme, Sportsline nutrition, Glamour White, Image, LaModa, and other crummy short term stores are becoming more the norm. Walking through the mall last night, reminded me a lot of the stores at Crossroads. There are also a lot of empty spaces in the mall, more than I've ever seen at Quail Springs. I'm surprised that Forever 21 didn't take up one of the empty spces, instead of kicking out established Eddie Bauer.

I noticed they're working on the new lifestyle center north of the mall. I think once this is completed, it will spell the death of Quail Springs Mall.

I seriously doubt it.

At some point, QS will have to evolve in order to keep/attract good tenants and shoppers.

Most malls here in California have (or are in the process of) completely reinvented themselves, moving more towards restaurants and entertainment. Lots of them are starting to incorporate different types of anchor tenants (like Target) because the traditional department store is a dying breed.

That mall has lots of room to expand and change and I suspect they will do some sort of major overhaul in the next decade.

It seems like Penn Square is doing well and attracting national tenants. Solid malls like the Beverly Center are still doing well.

Obviously, some are doing well but plenty aren't. In OKC alone, Shephard Mall and Heritage Park have already ceased being retail centers and Crossroads isn't far behind.

Penn Square has reinvented itself 3 or 4 times over the decades. When I was a kid, it was an open-air malls with John A. Browns and Rothschild's as anchors.

AMC theatre is helping Quail enormously. I rarely shop there except for going to Dillard's from time to time, but go to the movies there frequently.

When I lived at 122nd/Penn (what a mistake), I used to frequent Quail often for movies and quick shopping. It seemed to be in a little decline then. Stuff was moving out and around. It seemed to be declining, but I wouldn't say it's turning into Crossroads. I haven't been to QSM in nearly 2 years (I think that says a lot) but go to Penn frequently during my lunch hour. I went once on a Saturday evening to shop, and I realized that it was insanely busy, but I felt insanely unsafe. I think shopping malls, as a trend, are biting the dust.

AMC theatre is helping Quail enormously. I rarely shop there except for going to Dillard's from time to time, but go to the movies there frequently.

Actually, talk to any store manager at Quail Springs, and they'll tell you that ever since AMC theatres moved in, their sales have gone way down, and shop lifting has gone way up. Management with General Growth Properties has agreed to some extent, saying they have a huge teen problem that they never had before the theater opened.

Truth is, when looking at sales per square foot, Quail Springs is doing just average.....that would be okay, if it weren't for Penn Square, which is soaring in sales per square foot.

Funny that jsenter mentions the lifestyle center that's planned north of the mall. I also have a feeling that the new lifestyle center will draw a lot of the stores out of Quail Springs. I wouldn't be surprised to see JC Penney move out of the mall and build a free standing structure as an anchor of the open air center, similar to what they did down south.

I think Penn Square renovated at the right time, and marketed their mall right. Whereas Quail was going more for the family crowd, Penn targeted the upscale crowd in Nichols Hills. Since the renovation, their sales have gone way up, and are near $400 a square foot, in line with many of the prime malls in the US....that's actually very comparable to the Galleria Mall in Houston. Penn is the highest profit-making mall in the state, even topping Woodland Hills Mall, the state's largest mall. Upscale retailers would rather pay higher rent and locate in a mall with sales at $300-400 per square foot, than pay lower rent at a mall that only nets $150 per square foot (i.e., Quail Springs).

And I don't really think all malls are on the way out. I think we'll always have malls, especially the larger well-performing ones. I think it's more the regional smaller malls, and malls in areas with low demographics that will bite the bullet. Malls in growing, high income areas are still thriving. And Quail Springs is in a good area with good demographics....they're just going to have to market their mall differently.

I went once on a Saturday evening to shop, and I realized that it was insanely busy, but I felt insanely unsafe.

I've never felt unsafe at either Penn Square or Quail Springs.

Quail won't fall into Crossroads territory until the are around it declines like it did for Crossroads. I don't see that happening in the next 50 years.

Quail won't fall into Crossroads territory until the are around it declines like it did for Crossroads. I don't see that happening in the next 50 years.


I agree. Demographics are the number one factor that determine the success of a mall. Quail has some pretty pricey areas around it, i.e., Gaillardia, Rose Creek, Edmond, etc.

Penn thrives off of Nichols Hills, Glennbrook, Waterford, which I don't see going down anytime soon either.

Crossroads and Heritage Park are both dying because of declining demographics in the areas around the malls.
Shepherd went out because of both declining demographics, and more importantly, the expansion of nearby Penn Square in the late 1980's.

Good demographics certainly help but there is lots of competing retail around the QS with plenty more to come.

Penn Square is in a bit of a unique position because there isn't a lot of land in that area to develop.... Although if CHK puts together a Utica Square - like project on the site of NH Plaza, even that could change in a hurry. 50 Penn sure has faltered of late and has had it's ups and downs over the last 40 years. And Penn Square has had it's down times too, which is why is been completely remodeled several times.

Out here, even malls in very good areas are being completely rebuilt and repackaged because there is so much competition from big-box stores and lifestyle centers -- not to mention to Internet sellers.

Basically, malls have to provide some form of entertainment and areas to relax and hang out. The most popular new developments here have lakes, waterfalls, live entertainment, night clubs, etc. Many also mix grocery stores and some discounters with higher end boutiques and the types of places you only used to see in traditional malls.

I liked the mall back when it was just a mall. Plus I never forgave them for destroying that cool big red sculpture that was where the theater is now. That and the glass front of the mall that faced it were really unique and quite awesome.

Today, the malls that are doing well are the upscale affluent malls that remake themselves on a regular basis as in Penn. The malls that try to target the family crowd as worked during the 80s and 90s are struggling because of a combination of things. For one, today's family prefers big box stores and lifestyle centers over the traditional shopping mall. They like being able to drive up to the storefronts rather than have to park and go into a mall. I think the biggest threat to Quail Springs will be an open-air lifestyle center in the Edmond area.

Today, the malls that are doing well are the upscale affluent malls that remake themselves on a regular basis as in Penn. The malls that try to target the family crowd as worked during the 80s and 90s are struggling because of a combination of things. For one, today's family prefers big box stores and lifestyle centers over the traditional shopping mall. They like being able to drive up to the storefronts rather than have to park and go into a mall. I think the biggest threat to Quail Springs will be an open-air lifestyle center in the Edmond area.

I think open air lifestyle centers are big threats to any enclosed mall. I remember being distressed when they closed in Penn Square Mall. I've always preferred open air shopping, and it seems like many people do, when given the choice.

I don't know. To me, all I really care about is that a shopping center has the stores I want to shop at--indoor, outdoor, whatever. I think as long as Quail can [somehow] remain competitive and have some of the popular stores, it will be fine. But the Quail Springs Village will provide intense competition to keep the national chains.

Crossroads and Heritage Park are both dying because of declining demographics in the areas around the malls.

For Heritage, I would disagree with this....to a point. The demographics immediately surrounding Heritage haven't changed...and in fact there are new neighborhoods within a mile of the mall in 3 directions. What happened at Heritage is similar to what happen at Crossroads in that it never was a well performing mall to begin with. It really should never have been built and never operated well. Plus, the drive in MWC has been to move to the strip center/little house size/town center approach. Back when MWC first unveiled the plans for 29th street (which is definitely what did it in for Heritage), the tenents saw the writting on the wall. That's why many of them moved to 29th.

Again, if the demographics had changed that much, why would the stores have stayed in MWC instead of just closing? MWC's economy is doing very very very well and the room for growth in east MWC is endless. It's a slow yet steady growth that still has at least another 50 years of growth room at the current rate. Most people don't realize that because all they think of MWC is the main area between Sooner and Douglas...that's only 1/3 of the city.

Sorry to jump off of the QSP topic so much, but when people misrepresent an area with a blanket statement, I have to defend it. If you don't believe me, the MWC chamber has a lot of statistical info....

Chamber site: Midwest City Chamber of Commerce (http://www.midwestcityok.com)
Economic Development: MWC Chamber Economic Development Center (http://www.mwcok.com/)

For Heritage, I would disagree with this....to a point. The demographics immediately surrounding Heritage haven't changed...and in fact there are new neighborhoods within a mile of the mall in 3 directions. What happened at Heritage is similar to what happen at Crossroads in that it never was a well performing mall to begin with. It really should never have been built and never operated well.

Don't agree with you there, bomber, at least not with the notion that "Crossroads should never have been built."

When Crossroads opened up in 1974, its location along the corner of two major interstate highways was ideal, and the area around the mall was largely undeveloped and/or light industrial to the north. The incorporated limits of Oklahoma City edge close to the northeast of the mall, and if anything those areas to a degree crept in from the north and northeast.

Crossroads is partly a victim of stagnant planning and lazy ownership, but also of the way the area around the mall changed in the mid- to late-eighties. That's approximately the time that the gang influence in near SE Oklahoma City arose, and there's no way anyone in the city or within Crossroads ownership could have predicted it. The deterioration of the area wasn't helped in the last ten years when I-35 was rebuilt around it, effectively killing access to the shops and businesses that had managed to succeed over the years.

Remember, too, that Crossroads was a *showpiece* when it first opened. It drew *national* attention. It seemingly had everything going for it.

As far as ownership mistakes, Crossroads has had a grand total of perhaps *one* major renovation since it opened in 1974. I don't know if it is true, but I heard stories of feuds among the joint owners of the mall in the late 70's early 80's that always ended up stalemating any large scale plans for improvements. Over the years, I heard rumors of a center food court (like that in Quail Springs), an excavaction of the center court for some specialty shops, but nothing ever came to fruition. Pitiful. I would love to have seen someone, anyone, give it *half* the attention of Penn Square in that time, and perhaps Crossroads itself could have helped reshape how that area of SE OKC evolved. I'm afraid it is all-but too late, now.

Crossroads opened when I was 9 years old, and I thought a trip to the LeMans Speedway and an Orange Julius were the most awesome treats you could enjoy, and a trip to Toys By Roy on the first floor was practically an amusement park ride. Crossroads was one of the coolest places I could go....I just wish Crossroads owners had felt the same way.

-Soonerdave

Crossroads has had a grand total of perhaps *one* major renovation since it opened in 1974.

That's a great point and I wouldn't consider the one freshening a major renovation. It's still basically the same structure as when it opened 30+ years ago and think about how much the world of retail has changed in that time!

I think they really blew it when they built the theaters but didn't connect them to the mall. But they really haven't done a darn thing to evolve and keep up with the times and what other business/property could take that approach and still be successful after almost 35 years?

Anyway, QS should pay close attention. Adding the AMC theaters was a good step but they'd better be already working on a major renovation and/or expansion otherwise business will slip away and once that happens, it's very difficult to get it back.

And the "one" renovation Crossroads did actually ruined the mall. It took all of the fountains and water features out, installed warehouse-type lighting, and left us with glazed concrete floors. I'm guessing they were trying to go with a warehouse look. Anymore, for malls to compete, they really have to go upscale. The big box retailers pretty much control the lower end market these days.