View Full Version : Hands Up and Save OKC



FritterGirl
01-31-2008, 05:44 PM
In reading the comments about the Mayor's State of the City on NewsOK, I noted where several of the posters were commenting about some underground cult / ministry that serves sex offenders.

They also referenced a vigilante group called Save OKC that is trying to bring awareness about this group.

Admittedly, I've not been paying too much attention to the crime scene these days (too many other things to pay attention to), but this seems like a fairly serious issue.

Has anyone else heard of "Hands Up" Ministries or the saveokc group? (For more information, you can go to saveokc.com)

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-31-2008, 05:49 PM
"Serves" sex offenders? In what way?

I mean, if they're helping them to rehabilitate or find places to legally live, that would be great. If they're helping them to find people to flash without getting caught...Well, that's a different matter all together.

FritterGirl
01-31-2008, 05:55 PM
According to the save okc group, they provide "halfway" housing and some "rehabilitation" to the sex offenders. However, they are allegedly hiding how severe the offenders' records are, and some believe that several of the residents are beginning to commit sex crimes again, which the ministry group is hiding.

I just want to know if anyone else has a take on either organization.

BailJumper
05-17-2008, 09:50 PM
This group has been getting a lot of press lately. Personally, I'm more worried about the founder of SaveOKC.com than the sex offenders. I don't trust someone who takes such a moral high ground while doing it anonymously. He refuses to identify himself on his website and when FOX25 interviewed him (twice) they would not show his face. Hmmmm, what is in his closet?

I'd much rather all the sex offenders be in one place then spread all over the county.

mmonroe
05-18-2008, 01:17 AM
My sister was molested by my mothers ex-husband many years ago, after serving a short sentence, he was was released and was helped by Hands Up Ministries. After that, he had the guts to move two miles north of my mothers house, while my younger sister still lived with her. The worst part was that we didn't even receive a letter of his release, or his move to hands up ministries. The only way we found out anything was when I did a docket search through OSCN and found that he had been released. We later found out he was staying at the Hands Up Ministries halfway houses.

PapaJack
05-18-2008, 08:04 PM
mmonroe:

Please complete your story. Did your mother's ex-husband ever re-offend? If so was the victim your sister? How long ago did all of this happen?

My point is that Hands Up is a positive step in the program to rehabilitate sex offenders. Their percentages aren't great, but they are better than DOC. We can't lock up every sex offender for life, although such draconian methods may reduce the number of sex offenders somewhat.

Sexual addiction is an addiction, a disease, just like alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction, etc. Untreated the disease can escalate into rape, violence, death. Anything we can do to help the addicts before this escalation will help. Hands Up is a step in the right direction, albeit controversial and unpopular.

Overall, alcoholics probably kill more people than sex offenders, but all those deaths on the highway, or in bar room brawls or drunken rages don't make the juicy pub our "journalists " feast upon.

mmonroe
05-18-2008, 10:53 PM
He did not re-offend, but there was talk if he had molested his other daughter from a previous marriage. But as of yet, he has not.

PapaJack
05-19-2008, 05:45 AM
Thank you for your candid answer. This is a touchy subject (sorry for the PUN) with most people. But until we face the problem as it truly is, a disease, the situation will not improve.

RealtorJoe
05-19-2008, 06:16 AM
I would much rather they be getting some help and direction then being off on their own.

Midtowner
05-19-2008, 06:36 AM
I would much rather they be getting some help and direction then being off on their own.

I'm with you there. I can't see why anyone would object to this. The state isn't providing the service. If this is helping these guys not to re-offend, then no one has a valid complaint against them.

BailJumper
05-23-2008, 06:23 AM
Like I said, I'd rather they be where it is most cost effective to keep an eye on them. However, I would completely be supportive if the families living in the immediate area protested the 'compound'. I personally would not want to live near the place. But, I've yet to hear about the people living in the area picketing or anything else. Which again makes me wonder about the SaveOKC founder. I give him no credibility until he identifies himself and his motives.

a_human_being
01-29-2009, 10:20 PM
ok, so i used to live at HUM and while i cant TOTALLY agree with the way they run things, i do agree that its better to at least TRY to help out the sex offenders, instead of do nothing, doesnt it make sence? i mean if you really think about it, if nobody tries, then nothing is ever goin to get done about the problems, personally i think they should get funding from the government to house them, only as a PROGRAM, not just to house sex offenders, but to use the money for positive things, like education, you guys have to realize that not all those people that are living there are "all there in the head" im a sex offender, when i was in prison, i made alot of positive changes, i completed my GED, and a few other classes for various things, so it was a positive thing that happend to me, i didnt rape a baby, or go around peekin in windows, although thats the typical thought when seombody hears the words "sex offender" i mean people can be convicted of a sex crime if they get caught urinating on the side of the road, every sex offender isnt a monster people would like to belive they are, if i didnt care about what people thought about us, i wouldnt spend time on here and try to prove my point of view. now, im not backin up the SERIAL rapist and such, i think everybody would agree with me when i say that they should spend their life in prison. As a sex offender, i go through alot of everyday B.S. Its hard enough to get a job as it is, but then add the fact that i havea felony, and its a sex charge, but then i have my probation officer breathing down my neck about gettin a job, things are rough, i know i made a mistake, but how much do we have to take? i have to register for the rest of my life because i made one mistake? theres a few things i have a problem with when it comes to the laws, like what about this 2000 ft crap? do you REALLY think that if somebody wanted to re-offend, that it would cross their mind that they cant be within 2000 feet of a school? are you kiddin me? anyways, if you all would like to ask me any questions, id be more than happy to talk to you about MY side of the spectrum when it comes to life... take care

bluepickle
01-30-2009, 09:58 AM
My wife is a mental health/drug abuse counelsor and she says that nothing, repeat nothing, damages a person more than sexual abuse. You have to live with the inconvenience of being labeled a sex offender because your victim has to live the rest of their life with what you did to them.

So sorry you are finding a hard time getting a job.

As far as HUM, it is great if they are helping ex-cons out, as long as they are transparent to the public as to what it is they are and what they are doing.

PennyQuilts
01-30-2009, 10:08 AM
You are right that there are lots of types of sex offenders. But people who harm other people, especially children are real sickos and I have little compassion for the. It would be different if they had a higher rate of success in changing but it is very poor. And so many of them are lying cons who ruin lives.

What I have found from working with abused children and their families is that physical abusers are one thing. Losing your temper and lashing out or just making stupid parental decisions - all that can be worked with. Someone who sexually abuses a child is at a whole different place. I wouldn't want them near any child. Ever.

And I don't buy that "one mistake," crap. They all say that and statistics show that most abusers abuse 100's of times before getting caught.

Heyuri
01-30-2009, 01:35 PM
I have never understood the concept of a sex offender registry, or specific laws surrounding sex offenders. I can understand harsh punishments for terrible crimes, but to call anything involving sex a ‘special crime’ seems silly. Real life examples of sex crimes: 17 year old has (completely consensual) sex with 16 year old girl, now labeled a sex offender for his entire life; 15 year old sends topless picture of herself to her boyfriend, now a sex offender; 14 year old who gets sent topless picture from his girlfriend, now a sex offender; Man urinates in public, now a sex offender. Are all of these things stupid? Yes. Do any of these things warrant a permanent brand that will haunt you for the rest of your natural life? Heck no.
If somebody does something horrible that needs to be punished, punish them. Don’t label a random type of crime as ‘special’ and lump anything that has anything to do with sex in the same basket as a child rapist. It harms everybody, because instead of worry about the child rapist hiding someplace, we are worried about the big bad /sex offender/ down the block whose only crime was receiving a topless picture of his girlfriend 20 years ago. It’s a waste of resources.
So, while ‘one mistake’ surely is a load of crap when the child rapist says it, ‘one mistake’ is definitely not always a load of crap. I wish I could find the article about the teenage girls being brought up on child pornography charges due to sending topless pictures of themselves to their boyfriends. And then the boyfriends being brought up on charges for receiving them… But I cant seem to dig it up.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-30-2009, 07:51 PM
You are right that there are lots of types of sex offenders. But people who harm other people, especially children are real sickos and I have little compassion for the. It would be different if they had a higher rate of success in changing but it is very poor. And so many of them are lying cons who ruin lives.

What I have found from working with abused children and their families is that physical abusers are one thing. Losing your temper and lashing out or just making stupid parental decisions - all that can be worked with. Someone who sexually abuses a child is at a whole different place. I wouldn't want them near any child. Ever.

And I don't buy that "one mistake," crap. They all say that and statistics show that most abusers abuse 100's of times before getting caught.

Well what about the guys (like my friend) that's a registered sex offender because he streaked the street after a Superbowl party a couple of years ago?

That was one "mistake" if you can even call it that. Now his whole life is pretty well f***ed because some ninny called the cops on a harmless prank with no victim.

grantgeneral78
01-30-2009, 08:02 PM
There were a bunch of posts about this organization on craigslist rants and raves, what I took from reading it all from different folks is to beware of this organization.

Generals64
01-30-2009, 09:04 PM
In reading the comments about the Mayor's State of the City on NewsOK, I noted where several of the posters were commenting about some underground cult / ministry that serves sex offenders.

They also referenced a vigilante group called Save OKC that is trying to bring awareness about this group.

Admittedly, I've not been paying too much attention to the crime scene these days (too many other things to pay attention to), but this seems like a fairly serious issue.

Has anyone else heard of "Hands Up" Ministries or the saveokc group? (For more information, you can go to saveokc.com)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know David with the "Hands Up" ministries. There are a few more men thatn just Sex Offenders. The guys that are really involved in this program are ex-cons. they just need a hand up trying to establish a new life. They are very rigid in their work ethics and, if the guys don't comply to ALL of the rules (no exceptions) they are sent packing. In all, this is a fairly effective program.

a_human_being
01-31-2009, 05:27 AM
My wife is a mental health/drug abuse counelsor and she says that nothing, repeat nothing, damages a person more than sexual abuse. You have to live with the inconvenience of being labeled a sex offender because your victim has to live the rest of their life with what you did to them.

So sorry you are finding a hard time getting a job.

As far as HUM, it is great if they are helping ex-cons out, as long as they are transparent to the public as to what it is they are and what they are doing.

i can understand what your saying when it comes to them living with "what i did to them" but to tell you the truth, ive talked to ALOT of different people (including my sex offender rehabilitation teacher) about my case, and he agrees with me almost 100% that my "victim" wasnt really damaged mentally by my actions. ive been attending a sex offender class once every week for the last three years, even though its mandatory, its still a good class, and good support on some touchy issues. I cant say that i am happy that im -forced- to go, but i can appreciate the feedback i get there, and to know that im not the only one who has certain feelings about different situations.
But, back to my case, i was charged with "rape by instrumentation"
however, id like to make one thing clear here, there was never any "force" to it, what made it rape was the fact that i was 18, and she was 15 (yes i realize it is illegal, but i was young and pretty damn stupid at the time to think straight) also, we were both drunk, and high on weed, neither one of our judgments were on point, when i got pulled over for a possible DUI, she knew she was about to get into trouble by the cops AND her parents, and started crying (it was about 1am) now let me say this, i KNOW i was in the wrong, i should have never been in that situation to begin with, ive taken total responsibility for my actions, ive spent time in jail, and prison, and am currently on probation for a few more years, i have to register as a sex offender for life-time. But at what point have i paid my debt? even if i didnt have to register for a life-time, i still have to deal with what i did, just like she would maybe have to deal with what happend, its not just one sided. i cannot tell you how uncomfortable i feel when im out in public, afraid that somebody is going to maybe recognize me from the online DOC site, or if somebody is going to bump into me and then say i touched them, or to even be on the same isle as a young kid in a store, my victim wasnt a baby, why should i feel so uncomfortable around kids? its hard to even be around my friends kids, (i dont have any sexual thoughts about them im just afraid that my friends might -think- things) its just really hard to go through life -everyday- thinking about my case, and belive me, its definately a -everyday- thing! i mean, im almost so afraid to look at a woman, because now im not sure if im just looking at a beutiful woman and acknowledging her beauty or if im staring, and i never had these feelings before i was charged with my case! so many questions race through my mind when im out in public as to what people are thinking of me and if they know my past or not, what they think im doing, its so crazy sometimes. i am more than aware of whats going on. The whole reason i wanted to talk to you guys is to maybe educate or maybe give some insight from the other end, and i would REALLY appreciate it if i could get some feedback from any of you. In the end, im still a person, who has real feelings. Thanks for listening to me ramble haha take care guys

PennyQuilts
01-31-2009, 06:07 AM
Well what about the guys (like my friend) that's a registered sex offender because he streaked the street after a Superbowl party a couple of years ago?

That was one "mistake" if you can even call it that. Now his whole life is pretty well f***ed because some ninny called the cops on a harmless prank with no victim.

Well, go back and read my post - I noted that there are different sex offenders and the ones that bothered me are the ones who hurt other people (as decided by someone other than the abuser). The streakers and such are a whole different kettle of fish, seems to me.

USG '60
01-31-2009, 07:30 AM
ok, so i used to live at HUM and while i cant TOTALLY agree with the way they run things, i do agree that its better to at least TRY to help out the sex offenders, instead of do nothing, doesnt it make sence? i mean if you really think about it, if nobody tries, then nothing is ever goin to get done about the problems, personally i think they should get funding from the government to house them, only as a PROGRAM, not just to house sex offenders, but to use the money for positive things, like education, you guys have to realize that not all those people that are living there are "all there in the head" im a sex offender, when i was in prison, i made alot of positive changes, i completed my GED, and a few other classes for various things, so it was a positive thing that happend to me, i didnt rape a baby, or go around peekin in windows, although thats the typical thought when seombody hears the words "sex offender" i mean people can be convicted of a sex crime if they get caught urinating on the side of the road, every sex offender isnt a monster people would like to belive they are, if i didnt care about what people thought about us, i wouldnt spend time on here and try to prove my point of view. now, im not backin up the SERIAL rapist and such, i think everybody would agree with me when i say that they should spend their life in prison. As a sex offender, i go through alot of everyday B.S. Its hard enough to get a job as it is, but then add the fact that i havea felony, and its a sex charge, but then i have my probation officer breathing down my neck about gettin a job, things are rough, i know i made a mistake, but how much do we have to take? i have to register for the rest of my life because i made one mistake? theres a few things i have a problem with when it comes to the laws, like what about this 2000 ft crap? do you REALLY think that if somebody wanted to re-offend, that it would cross their mind that they cant be within 2000 feet of a school? are you kiddin me? anyways, if you all would like to ask me any questions, id be more than happy to talk to you about MY side of the spectrum when it comes to life... take care

OK, I'll bite. What WAS your crime?

GWB
01-31-2009, 07:40 AM
I'm a great believer in rehabilitating people, whether it be for drug addiction, alcohol addition, gambling addiction, sex addiction, etc. However, there's one thing I have zero tolerance for--an adult who harms a defenseless child.

I have seen, on a very personal level, the horrible consequences of young children who have been sexually molested by an adult. This traumatic experience stays with them for the rest of their lives. I know married couples who are not able to have a sex life because the wife was emotionally traumatized from the abuse she suffered when she was a young teenager, or younger. Even with counseling, these victims frequently are unable to have a sexual relationship with their spouses, and if they have one, it's often times not an enjoyable experience for them. Children who have been molested by an adult will often times suffer mental and emotional problems for the rest of their lives, and sadly, it effects everyone around them.

So yeah, I don't have too much sympathy for adults who harm a defenseless child. Children expect adults to protect them not harm them. Once they've been harmed in this manner they're never the same again. They have a difficult time trusting people and they constantly live in fear. Even with intense and long term counseling it is difficult for many of these victims to live a normal life again.

There's more than one victim when a crime like this is perpetrated against a defenseless child. It hurts everyone involved, the parents, siblings, spouses, and all of the people who love and care for the victim. Whatever punishment is given to the perpetrator of this horrific crime, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-31-2009, 08:03 AM
Well, go back and read my post - I noted that there are different sex offenders and the ones that bothered me are the ones who hurt other people (as decided by someone other than the abuser). The streakers and such are a whole different kettle of fish, seems to me.

I know...I wasn't picking at you...I was really kind of asking. What about guys like him? He's well and truly screwed because of bad laws. Not bad in spirit, just execution.

PennyQuilts
01-31-2009, 08:09 AM
Well, life is tough when you're stupid, I'll grant you.

Most of the time, DA's will settle for a conviction that doesn't require being labeled a sex offender if the person is just acting ridiculous. There are plenty of laws out there to choose from. Are you SURE that is what your friend was convicted of? Were you there? No offense to your friend but it has been my experience that peeping toms and the like tend to lie about what got them into trouble if they can get away with it. And like so many sex offenders, they convince themselves that they aren't hurting anyone so it is just a white lie.

USG '60
01-31-2009, 08:32 AM
I will get some flack for this but it is totally sincere. I have know of cases where I believe a LARGE part of the trauma to children who are victims of sexual molestations is caused by the response of the other adults in their lives. "Oh NO, oh dear God, you are ruined, you poor thing. That sorry bastard has ruined your life. You can never trust men again, now" That kind of response can only make things worse for the victims. But somehow the responsible adults feel like it is the right way to respond; like it is supportive or something.

Just sayin'.....sometimes.....to some extent.......

PennyQuilts
01-31-2009, 08:35 AM
You bet, the reaction of adults is essential and panic and freakout never did anything but harm the child. That is the time to remain calm and matter of fact. But get the child into counseling, first thing.

Oh, and young kids, particularly girls, tend to start displaying "symptoms" of sexual abuse when they hit puberty even if they've seemed fine, before. A lot of parents don't make the connection when their sweet daughter seems fine, for years, then suddenly starts acting out and acting in the ways that sexually abused children tend to do.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-31-2009, 12:59 PM
Well, life is tough when you're stupid, I'll grant you.

Most of the time, DA's will settle for a conviction that doesn't require being labeled a sex offender if the person is just acting ridiculous. There are plenty of laws out there to choose from. Are you SURE that is what your friend was convicted of? Were you there? No offense to your friend but it has been my experience that peeping toms and the like tend to lie about what got them into trouble if they can get away with it. And like so many sex offenders, they convince themselves that they aren't hurting anyone so it is just a white lie.

I was there when he was arrested, not for the rest of it (court dates, etc). About all I remember from what the cop was saying was lewd behavior. They shuffled us back in the house pretty quickly. It was a Superbowl party and I'd been imbibing heavily. :) Everybody had been, it was the first of Denver's back to back Superbowl wins and we were in Denver after all. The whole city was full of people setting off fireworks, firing guns, and all that rot...This guy ran down the street and back with nothing but a smile on. Nobody even argued with the cops either. Most of us were military and were all "yes sir, no sir" to the cops...But Pete still wound up in cuffs. Nobody even called them, he was driving by and saw him streaking.

Like I said...I don't know what the actual charges were, all I know is that he lost his job (required security clearance) and had to move because of it. From what I understand, now 10 years later, he still can't get right.

All because he freed Willy.:tiphat:

a_human_being
01-31-2009, 03:13 PM
OK, I'll bite. What WAS your crime?

read post #13, i think i responded to the wrong thing, im now to forums so bare with me here

PennyQuilts
01-31-2009, 03:37 PM
Well, I am sorry for your friend. Personally, under those facts, I think it was ridiculous to have charged him with something that carried that sort of penalty. Public drunkeness would have been the more appropriate charge.

USG '60
01-31-2009, 04:24 PM
read post #13, i think i responded to the wrong thing, im now to forums so bare with me here

In it you say you made "one mistake," but you did not say what it was. I am just curious. If I had been "caught" for every "crime" I ever committed I would never have seen the light of day. And probably by todays "standards", many would have been called sex crimes. Jeez.

angel27
01-31-2009, 05:05 PM
I believe we should distinguish the level or degrees of offense, so that streakers are not serving the same lifetime scrutiny as a true child molester. That only makes sense.

I also know a nice Christian man who was in DHS custody as a child and was "caught" in a situation zipping his pants or adjusting his underwear or giving another kid a back rub or something as innocuous and the person in-charge had him brought up on charges and part of his plea bargain was admitting to sexual abuse. I think he said he was 15, scared and dumb - just didn't understand what he was agreeing to. Trusted those in charge to advise in his best interest... afraid of what would happen if he didn't.

He's a wonderful father, husband and family man with a kind heart and I hate what he has to go through all of his life now because he didn't know better. The family only recently - after about 10 years - gained permission for her first children living with their father to be at home in the presense of this man.

As far as HUM, I have met those in charge and I don't know any bad on them. I feel better knowing there is an organization that is willing to extend their hand to real offenders rather than their just being left out there without any help, guidance or answers. I imagine their job would be very difficult and not all they try to help would be receptive, as with any other program.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
02-01-2009, 09:37 AM
Well, I am sorry for your friend. Personally, under those facts, I think it was ridiculous to have charged him with something that carried that sort of penalty. Public drunkeness would have been the more appropriate charge.

That's what I think, and one more reason why I think sex offender laws are poorly written or executed.

Oh well...I'll get out of this thread before I get all mad about it again.

unfortunate1
02-01-2009, 11:41 AM
I just wanted to bring some important point to light for the general public... 1st please understand that the restrictions are NOT really helping to stop the issue. The really unfortunate part is the the more upscale communities are going to be the place the sex offenders show up. Know why?? They are out in the country or outskirts of town and those are the only place that sex offenders are allowed to live? Make you feel good? Pretty soon we will have cities of sex offenders only because they are required to live there. 2nd Where they live has ZERO effect on weather or noth they reoffend.
To be very honest it is the offenders who have NOT BEEN CAUGHT that are the true problem. Anyone who has a loved one in that situation will tell you that after going through all of the court stuff and prison the last thing they have on thier mind is reoffending. I just think we need to be more reasonable about things...would you not want to know a drug dealer or murderer lives next door? Well they do not have to register and more often they are more of a danger to thier neighbors then a sex offender. We need to realize that they WILL be in our society and we need to support them in becoming a productive citizen again not holding them down and continually punishing them and taking more money out of thier pockets making them more despirate and frustrated. That is the kind of mind set that makes them reoffend because there is no reason for them to improve thier behaviors nothing positive for them to look forward to. No good paying job. No family. No loans. How do we expect them to make improvements when we offer them no incintives for good behavior???

CuatrodeMayo
02-02-2009, 07:44 AM
so bare with me here

Lol...

DaveSkater
02-02-2009, 03:33 PM
Freudian slip if I've ever seen one.......

PennyQuilts
02-03-2009, 04:44 AM
My work brings me into contact with abused children. I don't care about their abusers. If they all fell off a cliff, I could live with that. The destruction they visit upon these children is life long. I am just about as worried as the ones who are convicted as the ones who aren't caught. They are all perverts.

I am sorry for people like OGTS's friend if they are caught up in something that is genuinely not an abusive situation but for anyone who has harmed a child - as defined by someone who is NOT an abuser - I don't really care about them. I don't want them beat up or hurt in prison or anything like that - don't get me wrong. But they are predators preying on our most vulnerable members of society and ask for what they get.

As for the notion that better neighborhoods would end up with more sex offenders - this isn't about economic class. I don't want to isolate these monsters in the poor neighborhoods so that just the poor kids are preyed upon. I don't want them anywhere near children and any tool we can give to adults to help them keep the kids safe is fine with me. And if the stress that comes with paying the price of hurting children makes them more likely to reoffend - just what does that say? Most people would never molest a child for anything. The thought is revolting. You are saying that a molester is going to do that if stressed so we need to be nicer to them. If that is the case, they shouldn't be wlaking the street in the first place. And it is also why the word is out where they live because they can't be trusted - just as you said.

I am being perfectly reasonable when I say I don't want someone with a history of preying on people, sexually, to be anywhere near my children or anyone's children. You can't compare them to a doper that lives next door. It is not the same thing. The doper is after drugs. The robber is after your money. The child molester is after your child.

And as for the ordeal that comes from prison and the court system, I am not surprised that many don't want to reoffend right after all that. Life got really hard for them and they are self absorbed wretches in the first place. But when the probation officers fade to black and time goes on, and they aren't being watched every second, they are very likely to be right back to their old ways. The child sexual abusers I've come across tend to be the most manipulative, self absorbed, ruthless b*stards on the planet.

PennyQuilts
02-03-2009, 04:50 AM
We need to realize that they WILL be in our society and we need to support them in becoming a productive citizen again not holding them down and continually punishing them and taking more money out of thier pockets making them more despirate and frustrated. That is the kind of mind set that makes them reoffend because there is no reason for them to improve thier behaviors nothing positive for them to look forward to. No good paying job. No family. No loans. How do we expect them to make improvements when we offer them no incintives for good behavior???

You have just made the best argument to keep these guys locked up or make sure we know where they are. Normal people, under the worst circumstances, no matter the stress, will molest children. The notion is revolting. The fear that we will stress them out and make them molest more children is a horrible argument to be nicer to these monsters. The incentive for good behavior is to avoid hurting others. The idea that they need something for THEMSELVES to keep them from hurting children says it all. They completely lack empathy for others. It is all about them.

TaoMaas
02-03-2009, 05:28 AM
I think that all unfortunate 1 is saying is that if we make rehabilitation a harder path than it needs to be, then we're upping the odds that they may not stay on that road to where we'd like them to be as citizens.

PennyQuilts
02-03-2009, 06:41 AM
I think that all unfortunate 1 is saying is that if we make rehabilitation a harder path than it needs to be, then we're upping the odds that they may not stay on that road to where we'd like them to be as citizens.

I agree that is what he is saying. It think the real question, however, is whether this is a harder rehabilitation path than it needs to be. Obviously, one size does not fit all but the law generally doesn't come in a lot of sizes. The real problem is that they are hard wired to sexually offend and hard wiring is difficult to change short of a serious brain injury. And in regards to knowing just how hard the path to rehabilitation needs to be, erring on the side of mercy for the offenders who MIGHT be salvageble, when it ups the risk to children from those who aren't, is not something with which I am personally comfortable.

GWB
02-03-2009, 06:58 AM
I agree that is what he is saying. It think the real question, however, is whether this is a harder rehabilitation path than it needs to be. Obviously, one size does not fit all but the law generally doesn't come in a lot of sizes. The real problem is that they are hard wired to sexually offend and hard wiring is difficult to change short of a serious brain injury. And in regards to knowing just how hard the path to rehabilitation needs to be, erring on the side of mercy for the offenders who MIGHT be salvageble, when it ups the risk to children from those who aren't, is not something with which I am personally comfortable.

I'm not comfortable with it either. Many years ago, someone we knew, and trusted, molested over 300 boys at a Christian camp during a period of 25 years. He never owned up to what he did, and in fact, denied ever molesting one kid even though there was irrefutable proof against him. These kinds of people cannot be rehabilitated no matter how long and intense the rehabilitation process is. I personally believe that people like this should be executed and never given another opportunity to inflict harm on another child.

TaoMaas
02-03-2009, 07:03 AM
The real problem is that they are hard wired to sexually offend and hard wiring is difficult to change short of a serious brain injury. I totally agree with this as it pertains to those who have harmed other people (as you differentiated earlier). But a streaker or someone who takes a leak alongside a country road and gets caught can definitely be rehabilitated, so I think we could put fewer roadblocks in those folks path and still feel okay about it.


And in regards to knowing just how hard the path to rehabilitation needs to be, erring on the side of mercy for the offenders who MIGHT be salvageble, when it ups the risk to children from those who aren't, is not something with which I am personally comfortable. I'm with ya on not exposing kids to risk. I was thinking more in terms of easing roadblocks associated with getting jobs or loans because those are building blocks to creating a decent life. The better life a person has, the more they risk by returning to indulging in illegal behaviors.

a_human_being
02-04-2009, 06:43 PM
i was convicted of rape by instrumentation (i used my finger) but there was never any force involved, we were both drunk and high, and she was underage (yes i know its illegal, no need to tell me lol i think im quiet aware of the laws now) i had just turned 18 three months prior to this incident, and she was about to turn 16

Sorry i didnt get to the post earlier