Enjoy!

YouTube - Satan uses TurboTax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qGMkgc2AnQ)

thank you! i've been looking for this.

Haha I know Satan. I went to college with him.

I am so swiping this.

Money's evil, but most pastors have NO problem asking for it with the promise that you'll be blessed in return.

Money's evil, but most pastors have NO problem asking for it with the promise that you'll be blessed in return.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bible does teach that you will be and are blessed correct? What's wrong with teaching biblical truths? The bible doesn't say however life will be easy and you won't be tested, but it does talk about giving generously plenty of times.

Does it talk about giving generously to the poor or to the church?

The holy quid pro quo which some of these pastors preach is absolutely immoral and self-serving. I have no problem with pastors exorting their flock to give out of a sense of community obligation, but give so that you may receive?

I'll stick with lottery tickets.

In most churches, money is given to both the church and to charities, missions, etc. Someone has to pay for the operating expenses of the church itself.

As for the whole idea of giving money to be blessed, that's what some pastors call the "prosperity gospel" and it's only a select few, mostly pentencostal pastors, that preach that.

Most pastors encourage you to give to spread the gospel, not necessarily to be blessed yourself. Although the Bible does say that God blesses the cheerful giver.

We have a 3 month guarantee trial at our church on tithing. I know that sounds weird, but it's true. You give 10% for 3 months and at the end of that 3 months if it hurt you more than helped you to tithe then Craig will give you a full refund.

If you give something away to someone you shouldn't expect it back. That's why it's called a gift.
The Bible teaches to give to the poor and to tithe your income to God's work, not to give and ask for the money back if you're not satisfied with the result.

although the bible does say that god blesses the cheerful giver.
actually, i think it says god loves a cheerful giver. ...and don't get me started about tithing. there's nothing in the new testament that says a christian should adhere to this practice.


correct me if i'm wrong, but the bible does teach that you will be and are blessed correct? what's wrong with teaching biblical truths? the bible doesn't say however life will be easy and you won't be tested, but it does talk about giving generously plenty of times. i think you missed the point of the person to whom you were responding... while people are certainly blessed, we shouldn't give just to get such a blessing. one should give out of genuine desire to help, not just to get something in return... i think that was the point.

the video was pretty funny. -M

In a way, I can see where kmf is coming from, after I've given it a second thought. I don't like the approach though of asking for your money back if you don't get blessed.

From the New Testament, to appease mmm: 2 Cornithians 9:6 talks about giving to God and it says "whoever sows sparingly will reap sparingly and whoever sows generously will reap generously. "

jsenter, you mean 2 corinthians 9:6. the context here is the contribution being collected from the early churches to help those in jerusalem. i think that 'reaping generously' is more closely linked to the benefit that the contribution would have on its recipients rather than the benefit on the givers.

-M

The point of giving it back is because Craig certainly doesn't want anyone to not be able to pay their own bills or go without food in order to give money to the church. Some people really really have a hard time giving up money based on faith when they aren't sure where their next meal is coming from. This gives them a good amount of time to test that faith. Most people continue on with their tithe and never ask for it back, but there has been a rare occasion where something tragic has happened to the family and/or it just wasn't feasible for them to give up money at that time.

You said: "there's nothing in the new testament that says a christian should adhere to this practice."

What about Matthew 23:23, where Jesus tells the Pharisees that instead of just tithing, they should be practicing justice, mercy and faithfulness. But, Jesus also says that the former ("giving the tenth") should not be neglected.

kmf, the whole approach isn't Biblical though. The Bible doesn't say anything about giving to test your faith, or giving money you don't have to see if God will respond to fill the void. It's more of an issue of giving to follow old Jewish law, which Jesus confirms is still in play. This whole idea of giving to receive something, I don't buy.

I give to my church because I feel like it's following God's law, and for charitable reasons, because I want to help others and help spread the Gospel.

very true jsenter. But in the year 2008 you can't make people do something they don't want to do or aren't comfortable doing. This is just a way for the church to ease them into it or to help them with their faith. It's not our place to make someone tithe or to judge them for not doing so. That is between the giver and God.
I just think you have to have a realistic approach. It's like preaching abstinence to teenagers but making sure they have condoms. You can only pass along the information, you can't control the person.

Good explanation kmf!

what about matthew 23:23, where jesus tells the pharisees that instead of just tithing, they should be practicing justice, mercy and faithfulness. but, jesus also says that the former ("giving the tenth") should not be neglected.

good point. however, keep in mind the timeframe that this was stated... jesus stated this to pharisees, people bound to keep the jewish law. christ had not yet died at this point and the christian religion had not yet formally started. i'd therefore argue that tithing is part of jewish law and not christian law. the tithe was collected from all the tribes and dispensed to the tribe of levi. the christian contribution is collected and dispensed to the poor. they're two different things.


it's more of an issue of giving to follow old jewish law, which jesus confirms is still in play.
certainly you don't believe this. do you offer sacrifices at the temple? do you abstain from eating pork or any other 'unclean' animal? do you rest on the sabbath? do you observe all the jewish feast days? if jewish law was still in effect, you'd be required to adhere to these things.... the old law is dead, but don't take my word for it...

col. 3:13-14
and you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

-M

True, but the Christian faith has adopted some elements of original Jewish law, and not others. So, really, these are old Gentile laws we're talking about.

For example, the need to bring sacrifices to the temple changed when Jesus died, and paid the ultimate sacrifice. And I don't observe Jewish festivals because I'm now part of the Gentile clan, not the Jewish clan.

Still, I think you'd agree that you should give out of your heart first and foremost, no matter the amount. I'd say giving now should be based more on following Christ's example, and not necessarily based on Jewish law.

the christian faith has adopted some elements of original jewish law, and not others.i agree that this is true now and scripture indicates that this was true in even in the early church... however, i think that there's a difference between saying that some customs are still being observed and saying that the old law is 'still in play.' i'm probably just splitting hairs at this point. : )


still, i think you'd agree that you should give out of your heart first and foremost, no matter the amount. i agree with that 100%. -M

I see what you're getting at, and I agree.

The point of giving it back is because Craig certainly doesn't want anyone to not be able to pay their own bills or go without food in order to give money to the church. Some people really really have a hard time giving up money based on faith when they aren't sure where their next meal is coming from. This gives them a good amount of time to test that faith. Most people continue on with their tithe and never ask for it back, but there has been a rare occasion where something tragic has happened to the family and/or it just wasn't feasible for them to give up money at that time.

With all due respect, if one is getting their money's worth of blessings, then why would they have to worry where their next meal is coming from?

Let's be honest, this is just a slightly slicker version of the age old "give me a dollar and Jesus will reward you a hundred fold" scam preachers have been conning folks with for centuries.

I watched this video and am always amazed at the ever growing enormity of Groeshel's ego. Groeshel is playing a smug cartoon Jesus/God (named Craig) in these "humorous" little debates with a silly cartoon Satan.

Because I'm a sucker, I watched the LC produced, self-congratulatory salvation story of the homeless family rescued by LC. I'll take it at face value and stipulate that the folks talking are being truthful. The more important message is the the lengths to which LC are taking credit.

How many people does City Rescue Mission serve each year? Thousands and they do it with humility and without the grandstanding melodrama of those self-proclaimed "Crazy Christians" at LC.

First Christian in Edmond serves thousands of meals each week to those who need it and the only advertising they do is the tiny sign on Boulevard that advertises "Breakfast on Boulevard.

Seems like I remember something I read somewhere about some people who made a big show of their praying and who somebody didn't think it was so cool...what was that? Oh yes, it was Jesus:

Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

With all due respect, if one is getting their money's worth of blessings, then why would they have to worry where their next meal is coming from?

Let's be honest, this is just a slightly slicker version of the age old "give me a dollar and Jesus will reward you a hundred fold" scam preachers have been conning folks with for centuries.

I watched this video and am always amazed at the ever growing enormity of Groeshel's ego. Groeshel is playing a smug cartoon Jesus/God (named Craig) in these "humorous" little debates with a silly cartoon Satan.

Because I'm a sucker, I watched the LC produced, self-congratulatory salvation story of the homeless family rescued by LC. I'll take it at face value and stipulate that the folks talking are being truthful. The more important message is the the lengths to which LC are taking credit.

How many people does City Rescue Mission serve each year? Thousands and they do it with humility and without the grandstanding melodrama of those self-proclaimed "Crazy Christians" at LC.

First Christian in Edmond serves thousands of meals each week to those who need it and the only advertising they do is the tiny sign on Boulevard that advertises "Breakfast on Boulevard.

Seems like I remember something I read somewhere about some people who made a big show of their praying and who somebody didn't think it was so cool...what was that? Oh yes, it was Jesus:

Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

With all due respect - when people start their sentences out with this phrase they intend to be completely rude and disrespectful. And you were, with all due respect.
First of all, I get mailers every year around all the major holidays begging for money from the City Rescue Mission and they always have some extravagant flyer with a sob story that tries to guilt people into donating.

If you paid attention to the little video about tithes or about being "blessed" you would know that we do not preach that you will be rich if you donate or get your return 10 fold. If anything, Craig teaches that your life will be harder as a Christian and that it is tough giving up money in today's society. He nor I am saying you will be rich - being blessed is a much deeper level than that. Through your love of Christ even through the hard times there will be support and a way. We never said you wouldn't have hard times. And of course there would be times you wouldn't know where your next meal is coming if you are poor - who would preach that your life would be a sunshiny day for the rest of your life if you give the church money? Oh wait....

I wasn't commenting about the video. I was commenting on your statement and its' inherent contradictions. Further, I was commenting on the promise of blessings in exchange for donations as being a fairly typical trick of religious hucksters. Read up on a few from the past. They all do stuff like this.

Your follow up is interesting in how you seem to interpret of "blessings" as meaning persecution or something that sounds to me like persecution. Is this the "pie in the sky when you die" trick or the "allegiance through persecution" trick? Maybe it is a hybrid. Regardless, it is a good example of how Groeshel appears to be following all the golden chestnuts of religious hucksterism.

As for City Rescue Mission, I didn't say they don't solicit donations. They do and they do a lot with the money they get. However, I don't see them using thier funds for glorifying their leadership. I can't even remember any of their leaders names and I've worked with them a number of times.

But, leave them aside and pay attention to the hundreds of OKC charitable organizations that aren't so into self-glorification.

Have you ever been solicited for money from Breakfast on Boulevard? Nope. They do it without soliciting funds and volunteer labor. And, they do it all without a charismatic leader to take credit for it.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful and upon re-reading my post don't think I was unless you define all criticism of LC as disrespect which perhaps you do.

I know you're really into Life Church and congratulate you on finding something that gives your spiritual life meaning. I further congratulate you on finding a person you can find such a high level of admiration in. I hope you are able to maintain your enthusiasm and that Groeshel proves worthy of your admiration and dedication.

I should probably resist commenting because I can't share your enthusiasm for Groeshel or his religion. Discussion of it seems to go in the same circles each time--some people really really really love Groeshel and others think he is a huckster and a con--etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Sometimes I wonder if people are evangelizing or just seeking affirmation.

If we opened a new forum just dedicated to all ways Groeshel is ultra-super-cool, I probably wouldn't comment.

I have expressed my suspicions and lack of admiration a bit too often just as others have probably expressed thier devotion and admiration more often than necessary.

To be honest, it's actually kind of fascinating being so close to a huge religious enterprise and seeing it work. I grew up 2 blocks from Billy James Hargis' Christian Crusade world headquarters and that was pretty fascinating as well.

I can appreciate your point of view and respect your opinions on Craig. All people who visit LC seem to be lumped into some sort of cultish alien hybrid that are ridiculous and crazy though. I think this is just as crazy as you seem to think LC goers are.
I just can't fit into that one way or hell point of view and all the people I know from LC are human as well and don't worship Craig or the ground he walks on.
But I think it's extremely closed minded to assume we all do just because we attend and enjoy and believe in LC. That's like assuming everyone that walks into a liquor store is an alcoholic. Maybe I'm not the normal one here, but I'd rather be abnormal than wander around with my judgemental head in the clouds and pretend life is so black or white.
Let me ask you this E Outsider - do you think all tithes are wrong or just the ones at LC? And furthermore, comparing churches to charities is like comparing apples to birds. Unless you are part of the Breakfast on Boulevard organization how can you be certain of their operation? Most charity organizations are non-profit which means they rely on private donors and sponsorship. All companies have to campaign for this. They all dream of a private giving donor which this one may have. That would allow for them to not have to reach out for the community to assist in so many givings. It all depends on their funding and grants and where it's coming from.

Groeshel runs a carnival. People simply come and pay their money for the rides, light shows, etc. If they aren't happy with the entertainment, they get a refund.

I rarely comment about LC members. My comments are almost exclusively about him and the business he runs. I really don't see it as a church. I see it as a very aggressive business of which spirituality is merely an aspect of the brand. Most of what is being "sold" is the charisma of Groeshel. If he goes away, what happens to all the branches and all the folks who attend them?

One only has too look to Ted Haggard as a recent example of what happens to a huge church once the pastor has a rather predictable fall from grace.

Do your own research on BOB. They serve the poor in a way I think is consistent with Jesus' teachings. I do know what I'm talking about. I attend FCCE sporadically and have followed the program for years.

I'm not against Tithing but find the current "giving 10% of your income to the church" to be not very well supported by scripture. Then again, I tend to focus on what Jesus said and Jesus said nothing about giving money to a "church."

In fact, if you want to be literal about it, the concept of a "church" as we know it today did not exist back then anyhow.

Sam Kinison had a bit where he said if Jesus were around to day, he'd be saying, "where did I say to take old folks money to build a water slide..."

Oh please. Non church people think all churches are money hungry and casting souls to hell.
Not to burst your bubble or anything on this BOB in Edmond - but they don't have to beg for money because they have people like The Edmond Women’s Club who has collected more than $2.3 million since its founding in 1983, the majority through donations and fundraisers, all of which has been returned to the city’s residents through Edmond’s own relief agencies like the Hope Center and Breakfast on Boulevard. Trust me, if all agencies had people donating like that, they wouldn't have to ask for money. I saw a ton of private contributors like this out there.
How's the First Christian Churches new coffee bar ministry going btw? :rolleyes:

Can't you just feel all the Christian love???

And people wonder why the unchurched don't get excited about going to church...

Oh please. Non church people think all churches are money hungry and casting souls to hell.

Not necessarily. But one could certainly argue that "non church people" get that perception when they see the gross amounts of money spent on new multi-million dollar "lifestyle" campuses, tshirts, bumper stickers, and other paraphenalia used to "sell" their brand. This isn't a new phenomenon, however, given that the Catholics have been doing this for centuries. (It's not a dig, just a fact except for the early Catholic church, there weren't bumper stickers, just billions in real estate, artifacts and religious iconography).

The truth of the matter is that churches are not all that much different from traditional non-profit organizations in their fund raising. The principle difference is that they have a built in audience that is doctrinally inclined to give.

Can't you just feel all the Christian love???

And people wonder why the unchurched don't get excited about going to church...

:love_bed:

I'm not sure I follow. I'm a "non-church person" because I don't agree with your idolatry of Groeshel? Hmmm, that's right presumptuous of you. What else can you tell about me? Boxers or briefs?

If you conflate all who are not Life Churchers with non-believers, then you might want to consider some things:

Groeshel did not invent Jesus
Groeshel is a man, not a God. I'd go a step further and say he's not even a demi-god.

As for the charitable organizations I've mentioned, are you criticizing Hope Center and BOB because people like me believe in their mission and give them money?

Do you really think LC would somehow do things differently if they got the $660 a week that goes to operate BOB? Perhaps Groeshel would have been able to open branches in Africa and ended the wars, poverty, and starvation that plague many countries there.

Do you think the $660 a week BOB feeds hundreds on is some how extravagant?

I'd venture to say that sum is less than LC's weekly smoke machine budget.

As for FCCE's "coffee ministry," I'm not sure what you are referring to and I'm not holding them out as a paragon of virtue regardless. They're a church I have attended recently but do not belong to. They host a really great philanthropy in Breakfast on Boulevard. That's the whole of my statement.

But, they're no Life Church and they don't got no big mega-big-star E-vangelist like Craig Groeshel.

Holy cow...another LifeChurch thread.

I just don't have the energy today. I have some kind of crud that has been floating around work.
I see what you are saying Outsider and I really wasn't trying to be as tacky as my last post sounded when you read it. I am happy you have found something to believe in and contribute to.
LC isn't for everyone and I know that. I also know that not all people who attend LC are as open - not sure how to say that - as I am. By that, I mean that I do not take everything Craig says as the gospel and I do challenge things that I disagree with. I also enjoy the other pastors just as much as him. But I also know it's the first church in my 30 + years on Earth that has actually made me feel comfortable, I don't feel like I'm being judged, and I have learned so much about God. My son is going on his first mission trip this spring break also.
None of my family members when I was growing up ever went to church or even talked about God. So this is why my church means so much to me, it is helping to break a horrible family chain of events and lifestyles.

On a completely different angle - some people believe that tithing from the Bible turned into taxes which is where our tax system comes from. What do you guys think about this?

On a completely different angle - some people believe that tithing from the Bible turned into taxes which is where our tax system comes from. What do you guys think about this?

Taxes have always been a part of life. And it's addressed in the Bible as paying to Caesar what's owed to him. I don't really think it's connected to tithing in any way.

Taxes have always been a part of life. And it's addressed in the Bible as paying to Caesar what's owed to him. I don't really think it's connected to tithing in any way.

You used to tithe to the Levites. The Levites were a quasi-governmental tribe in Israel which performed many of the tasks we expect of the government today. The Levites, in turn, gave 1/10 of what was given to them to the church.

If you want to follow the OT rule of tithing, you ought to give 1%.