Check out how Groeschel used Rick Warren's pre Gulf war I talk to support the second official destruction of Iraq

Lifechurch vs. Iraq dot com (http://myemospace.com/coi/)

http://myemospace.com/coi/bolde.jpg

ugh. This is so poorly organized and not pleasing to the eye at all. I have no idea what is all on this website but I couldn't look at it for longer than 15 seconds without giving up.

The basic premise of the site was a critique of Groeshel's exhortations to his flollowers that thier jobs--as christians--was blind loyalty to George Bush.

The theological premise of Groeshel's sermon was pretty typcially thin and full of shallow proof texts. In the eyes of the site's author, the message boiled down to right wing chickenhawk pandering.

and you wonder why Craig has to have a body guard now?

He has a bodyguard because he is delusional. He needs a bodyguard to protect him from himself, not unlike Richard Roberts or (long list here) did.

Forget whatever I suggested about Craig moving toward Emergent Church ideas.
He's obviously another evangelical political conservative out to please his flock rather than challenge them with biblical truth.

He says:

"…if (Bush) as God’s ordained leader of our country says it’s time for war, then at that moment, at that moment, even though I am not for war my opinion no longer matters. As a citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA [caps represent boastful shouting]…one nation established under God at that point my role becomes to submit to the leader of The United States, I will speak well of him, speak well of our troops and will do nothing but support the leadership that which God has ordained [uproarious applause from the crowd ensues]."


Has he ever heard of Christian pastor and theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Bonhoeffer and others stood up to THEIR leader, Adolf Hitler. Damn good thing the church in Germany wasn't run by Craig Groeschel. Craig's theology on this is outlandish and hardly Christ-like. Not that I'm much into organized religion these days anyway, but this is despicable.

Groeshel is clearly caught up in the fervor of the time. He's also preaching and pandering a safe message in a time that the American People are whipped up in a frenzy of blood-lust. A more mature pastor might have had the ability to pull back from the warmongering of that time and remember that, you know, war is bad and sometimes presidents are fools.

A more honorable pastor might have risked taking the then highly unpopular stance against warmongering.

Of course, for a young healthy guy like Groeshel, an honorable response to such blind allegiance to the president might have been to enlist instead of sending others to do the dirty work.

Theologically, the doctrine of blind faith in leaders is pretty indefensible.

I'm not a pacifist and I think the christian concept of the "Just War" is solid from a human perspective but not from a spiritual one. Jesus' admonition that we love one another seems to pretty well precludes the death, destruction, and hatred of war.

But, as people living in an imperfect world, self-defence or the defence of others, sometimes requires us to break that commandment. For that, I believe we are forgiven. This is a we each must make for ourselves and not one that any human can make for us to blindly follow.

I just listened to Groeshel's war whoop sermon and his interpretation of the Just War Doctrine is pretty meat headed. If I understand his rather rambling text--"Now write this down"-- if you feel threatened, it's the exact same thing as being threatened and self-defence is always justified.

Ok. I just wrote it down. It looks even more disgusting on paper.

Did Dick Cheney write this sermon?

Why is Groeschel quoting the "Just War" doctrine? That's purely a Catholic creation (Saint Augustine). I didn't think such a thing would have a place in Protestantism.

The basic premise of the site was a critique of Groeshel's exhortations to his flollowers that thier jobs--as christians--was blind loyalty to George Bush.

Even my Southern Baptist pastor never preached such a thing. Not even close.

How many times do I have to tell you that Craig was raised as a Catholic and that Lifechurch is loosely based around the Catholic belief?? Didn't believe me before, how about now?

You guys act like he is supposed to be the all knowing mighty preacher or something holy. He is just a man, like you or I. Nothing more nothing less. It's humorous how you think the president should be questioned about his decisions but Craig should be hung on the cross for a sermon you disagree with. What is a pastor but a teacher. Did you always agree with everything your teachers said? NO. You have a brain - challenge them. All teachers, leaders, pastors, doctors - they are all human beings and should be challenged. I never just take a medication my doctor gives me without knowing what it is for and why I should take it. The same goes for Craig and trust me he loves a healthy challenge and is open to all questions. Heck as a human, he even has changed his mind and learned a thing or two himself.

As far as I am concerned, the only person that should be trusted and followed with blind faith is God himself. Everyone else is allowed mistakes without being thrown under a bus. It's okay to not agree with the man. Write him a letter and tell him why.

Well, he presents himself as a pretty much all knowing mighty preacher and something holy. He aggressively seeks to gain followers to the theology--a term I use loosely--that he has created to suit his business model.

When a religious leader tells his HUGE congregation to support, without question, a President's questionable quest for war, it is a message that bears extreme scrutiny.

If he were a person with no influence, then this would not matter. However, as pastor of a nationwide congregation numbering in the tens of thousands, he does have a significant influence on those people. I don't really understand why, but then I don't understand why people like Celine Dion, Benny Hinn, Groeshel or lots of other Pop Culture personalities.

If I were him, I'd wonder how many of my followers joined up because of this sermon. I'd wonder what the consequences of his actions were. I might feel darned responsible for a blind rush to an ill conceived and unnecessary war.

But, then I don't admire him like many people do.

He has never presented himself that way to me nor that I have seen.
Maybe people should change their way of thinking about pastors - heck, even role models in general. They are all human and shouldn't be put on pedestals.

**Edit***

~Never mind...I'm staying out of it.

Maybe people should change their way of thinking about pastors - heck, even role models in general. They are all human and shouldn't be put on pedestals.

Some people choose to put themselves on those pedestals first and bask in the public ardor of it all. Just sayin'.

We need a surge to fix up that their 5 yr old stadium

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f313/fashionquote/mailer.jpg

What does Kirk Humphrey's have to do with lifechurch's pastor?

Oh, don't mind steve. He'll do anything for attention.

Kind of sad he decided to post it today, given that:

a) we discussed the postcard in another thread days ago;
b) the vote is OVER.

Some people just don't know how to let go.

Personally, I thought the chamber was pushing it with this particular "stakeholder" campaign, but I digress.

If that Kirk Humphries promotion was paid for by the Citizens for a Big League City (which I contributed to), I would not be happy. There's no notice of where the funding came from on the flyer posted here.

Although my politics are different from those of the leader of this church, we're a democracy and we have religious toleration in this country. My opinion of their message is irrelevent, as long as they don't break the rules of our country.

I didn't get that particular piece in my mail. But it is the same color, same typeface and same photo cropped in exactly the same way as a piece I received that did come from Citizens for a Big League City.

I assume the identifier was on the address side.

As far as Lifechurch - well, I don't go there. I think it's unfortunate for the people that do go there that they're being immersed in this stuff. Yes, churches are free to espouse whatever they want, but when you get a crowd of people in front of a charismatic speaker and an environment in which they are expected to listen and obey, but not think or question, there's a potential for trouble.

yes, and anarchy works so much better right?

That flyer doesn't bother me really. It's the same argument that we make here about keeping the concerts and events, only it mentions specifically the events marketed to Christians.

Is that any different than if we passed out a flyer to people going to the Linkin Park concert last week that makes the same point, only mentioning the hard rock concerts we've hosted instead?

People thinking for themselves is not anarchy.

As for the flyer, if you read it in the context of fundamentalism, the suggestion is certainly there that Christians should vote for it because it's God's will. When Humphreys (or the ad agency copywriter) says 'it's simply the right thing to do,' because it will allow them to 'reach people in profound ways to promote our values as a city,' that's pretty much code for 'Jesus wants you to do this because it will help fundamentalize Oklahoma City.'

yes, and anarchy works so much better right?

Anarchy? So people without religion have no self control or sense of societal obligation?

OGTS, I knew I could count on you to misinterpret my post. Again, I never mentioned religion, just sarcastically said anarchy doesn't work. I never said atheists or people without religion have no self control or sense of societal obligation. But come on, I know you have intellect and you know that an anarchy form of government would not work in an imperfect world (look at Al-Qaeda and their disregard for government, yeah they're a model of self control). Let me help you:

Anarchism(anar-kisim)(from Greek ἀν (without) + ἄρχειν (to rule) + ισμός (from stem -ιζειν), "without archons," "without rulers")[1] is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which reject compulsory government[2] (the state) and support its elimination,[3][4

By the very definition of anarchism, it means one who seeks to abolish government or rulers, it has nothing to do with religion necessarily. One can be an anarchist and a religious person, or one could be anarchist and does not believe in any religion at all. As you and others have said, separation of church and state, church and state are TWO different things.

Furthermore, again, what does the post about the FORD CENTER VOTE and Humphrey's endorsement have to do with LC.tv or LC.tv's pastor and Iraq. NOTHING. LC didn't publically endorse the vote, Humphrey's doesn't attend LC, heck LC.tv doesn't even promote Promise Keepers and the other events Humphrey's flyer mentioned, so it should be back to topic.

lol...metro...Dude...bornhere said this:



As far as Lifechurch - well, I don't go there. I think it's unfortunate for the people that do go there that they're being immersed in this stuff. Yes, churches are free to espouse whatever they want, but when you get a crowd of people in front of a charismatic speaker and an environment in which they are expected to listen and obey, but not think or question, there's a potential for trouble.

To which you replied:


yes, and anarchy works so much better right?

In THAT context? You were replying to what I put in bold and you were very much inferring EXACTLY what I was talking about. Intentional or not.

If you were simply and sarcastically saying "anarchy doesn't work" then it was nonsensical, random, and made even less sense than what I'm saying you were implying.

So what was it? A non sequitur post about anarchy (thanks for the definition BTW, I thought "anarchy" was an upside-down archway until you pasted that in there for me) that added zero value to the discussion, or were you looking down from your ivory LC tower upon lowly non-believers and are now backpedaling, claiming sarcasm?

Since you're normally quite the opposite of sarcastic and don't share my penchant for idiotic posts, I lean towards the latter.

or were you looking down from your ivory LC tower upon lowly non-believers

Hey!! I want one of those! Is that something you get when you sign up to become a "partner" with LC? If so I missed mine.

That's what I heard!

You get your tower, a little church-soap-on-a-rope, and your own pair of personalized Crocs once you reach the 5th order on the Ace Declension within the Order of Eight.

Or was that the Stonecutters...I can never remember. :D

That's what I heard!

You get your tower, a little church-soap-on-a-rope, and your own pair of personalized Crocs once you reach the 5th order on the Ace Declension within the Order of Eight.

Or was that the Stonecutters...I can never remember. :D

They actaully all come shipped in their "Welcome LIFEkit," which is an attractive, full-color LIFEbox that includes the LIFEtower, LIFEsoap and some of the lucky ones don't even have to wait for their LIFEcrocs! But, be sure and join within the next ten minutes. BUT WAIT!!! If you mention this post when you join, you will also receive a plastic dashboard Craig Groeschel LIFEAction Figure.

oooh. aaaah. I want that too! Dang. All I got was a "welcome into the family of God" speech and a Bible.

what about a new, self tilting lifechurch hat lol!