What do you guys think?!? I think that would seal the deal for tourism downtown & Bricktown..

I think this would really secure a constant and strong flow of people in the Bricktown area.... Great Idea!!!!

I don't know that we need a mall, but a shopping area would be nice both for us and for visitors.

Yeah, when I think mall, I think suburban sprawl. A nice outdoor shopping area would be cool.

An outdoors shopping plaza, something with retail concentration is definitely needed. But an indoor mall? That's so 80's.

Horton Plaza in San Diego.

Great place.

horton plaza mall san diego - Google Image Search (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en&q=horton+plaza+mall+san+diego&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

Horton Plaza in San Diego.

Great place.

horton plaza mall san diego - Google Image Search (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en&q=horton+plaza+mall+san+diego&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

It's such a great area and draws tourists and locals, alike.

This really should have happened at what is now Lesser, I mean Lower Bricktown.

I think that a Dallas Galleria or Beverly Center type mall would benefit OKC much more. The winters are cold and the summers are hot there! Outdoor shopping is fun and cute but when you are suggesting that Southern California formatted centers will fit in Midwest America, the weather has to play a factor.

Why are we bringing this up again?

The horse is dead.

How successful can this even be? The window of opportunity has already passed. Personally a lifestyle center type shopping setup would have been nice, but I don't think you will see many retailers sign up now. Penn Square has most of those who would sign, and they aren't very far from downtown...and UNP will have a similar batch when their lifestyle center opens up in a couple years. Downtown locations will pull from both of those, which retailers will likely try to avoid.

The boat has sailed for retail, at least on a grand (mall-sized) scale. It's time to think outside of the box and see what is lacking in the OKC market. I still say more large scale entertainment venues...a gaming center, casino, and even an indoor water park.

What do you guys think?!? I think that would seal the deal for tourism downtown & Bricktown..

Forget about Bricktown, the Bricktown ship has sailed Hogan and Brewer sped it along. I'm with laokstate, outdoor lifestyle centers are great but we're not in Southern California. A Galleria would do wonders for downtown OKC and attract plenty of upscale retailers than Penn Sq. Mall can't just due to they don't have enough space left.

I have posted this link before but this is what downtown OKC needs.

Atlantic Station® - Life Happens here. (http://www.atlanticstation.com/home.php)

Right now OKC is playing with nickels and dimes. Once the Sonics arrive we will start playing with dollars.

Outdoor lifestyle centers are perfectly fine. They are actually the norm for most new developments even up north. However, like Metro stated...any large scale retail is likely out of the picture for Bricktown now.

Horton Plaza in San Diego.

Great place.

horton plaza mall san diego - Google Image Search (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en&q=horton+plaza+mall+san+diego&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

There's a Chinese restaurant in there that has windows overlooking the bay great view, day or night...They've got about the BEST spicy beef on the planet...AND they carry a great Gewurztraminer, which is hard to find in a restaurant.

Any retail in downtown OKc is going to have to be combined with housing. Downtown will not be able to rely on people driving there just to shop.

We do not need a mall downtown. We need a Night Trips Billboard that can be seen from the international space station.

I'm not necessarily convinced that we could support another mall, but I do think some of the points on this thread are worth taking a closer look at:

1) Weather extremes eliminate chance for outdoor shopping: OK, but there are plenty of urban cities around the US with weather extremes that have plenty of streetside pedestrian based shopping. In fact, two of the biggest I can think of, Michigan Ave and 5th Ave, are not neccessarily 80 degrees and balmy for 300+ days a year.

2) Not enough rooftops: I mean, this makes sense at face value, but it doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in the city. I know our malls, specifically Penn Square and Quail Springs, aren't packed by neighborhood traffic alone. We barely even have neighborhoods where businesses rely exclusive, or even primarily, on their neighborhood traffic. Why is downtown different? If the stores were exclusive to downtown, like some are to Penn Square, I can't imagine Oklahomans having trouble driving 20 minutes to shop. If downtown gets rooftops, wouldn't it then be the best location for retail in the city? I mean, it would not only have central location, it would actually have local pedestrian traffic. I think downtown would be good for the right retail now, and rooftops would only make it that much better.

BDP, I think the primary reason people won't drive downtown for retail shopping is parking perception. Everybody I know thinks there's a parking problem down there. I try to tell them that there isn't...But they don't listen. I have a hard time getting people to go down there for the movies with me.

By the way, I was downtown Saturday night, and Bricktown was GORGEOUS with all the whiteness. The streets were a sheet of ice, but still...Awesome. G/F and I got some hot cocoa from Sonic and walked around a bit, checked out a (sadly) fairly empty Red Pin, and looked at the beautiful canal area. I was kicking myself for not having my camera with me. I've been working on my night shooting with some pretty results lately.

Great Idea....

I've been to several urban indoor malls before. A year ago I was in Madrid, Spain, and by accident I walked into a mall which was right above the Principe Pio station in the inner city. The mall was built out of an old city railroad station.. similar to what i've heard that St. Louis has. Another example was a mall in Mexico City which was in a very urbanized area. All the parking was in a garage in the bottom and side parking garage of the mall. The mall was 4 stories high and happens to be bigger than Penn Square Mall but with designer stores like Gucci, Prada, Georgio Armani all the way to retail stores like Zara (european equivalent to Express) and Lacoste. Both examples were in areas that were heavily populated and not far from tourist areas.... If downtown were to have something like this I would hope they use the newest concepts for American or even International Malls. Something like a Mall with open spaces, kinda half indoor and outdoor malls like that outlet mall outside of Austin but think more bricktown and even a very postmodern look to it. Bricktown needs that postmodern cosmopolitain look to it while still keeping its roots. Think of Dubai with how they embrace thier Middle Eastern culture by showing architectual elements in thier new flashy skyscrapers and low rises. A mall would be great. If theatre were big here as it is in Europe, it would be great to add a theatre to it. Maybe an art gallery or two. There still needs something unique to a mall in bricktown. Something innovative, something that this country is currently missing.

The perception of those that I know including me is that there is not a parking shortage but that the parking is over priced. I get outraged every time I go down there and see the parking is $5.00 and then two hours later it is $8.00. Why would I go shop where I am out five dollars before I even go in the store? As much as it is an inconvenience, Walmart doesn't charge to park at all. Charging to park your car may be okay if you are forced to go down there to work or if you are an out of town tourist but it is not okay for day to day shopping. As long as they continue to allow people to extort $5.00 to $10.00 to park your car, this perception will not go away.

Every city I've ever lived in or around has paid parking downtown, and it's NEVER only $5. More like $15 and $20 on event nights.

I like the idea of a retail galleria style mall, but not in bricktown. Enough with bricktown. What about the rest of downtown!!!

Let Brewer and Hogan and those other landgrabbers who are just sitting there hoping to flip for profit - let them continue to starve. I dont want the city to do ANY more investing in Bricktown other than what has already been announced. Nothing More at this point.

We need to move our investment to AAlley, Midtown, Triangle, the CBD, Arts District, C2S, West Downtown, and Deep Deuce!!! Bricktown should be WAY PAST needed a helping hand to survive - it should now fend for itself, after all - isn't it the MOST EXPENSIVE real estate in the state??!!

Bass Pro is the BIGGEST JOKE!!! I dont want to see any more mistakes like that and Bricktown has had it's run in the sun as far as Im concerned. What about the rest of downtown. ...

I've been really dissapointed in Bass Pro myself....the only good thing is the free parking to walk to the rest of Bricktown.

I actually prefer Academy over Bass Pro anyday. They don't spend money on all that decorating and stupid crap like an aquarium in the store so you get a better price. And have you seen how big the shoe selection is??? I haven't bought a pair of shoes anywhere else since the South OKC Academy opened! Doc Martens, Sketchers, Nike, whatever you want!

I've been really dissapointed in Bass Pro myself....the only good thing is the free parking to walk to the rest of Bricktown.

I actually prefer Academy over Bass Pro anyday. They don't spend money on all that decorating and stupid crap like an aquarium in the store so you get a better price. And have you seen how big the shoe selection is??? I haven't bought a pair of shoes anywhere else since the South OKC Academy opened! Doc Martens, Sketchers, Nike, whatever you want!

Not whatever :(

I like Born shoes lately. VERY comfortable and wide.

Why are we bringing this up again?

The horse is dead.
A lot of us like beating dead horses around here. There's no cans to kick.

Having been to both Bass Pro and Cabela's...I would definitely have to say we got the short end of the stick. Cabela's is by far superior with their retail locations than Bass Pro.

Cabela's -- Retail Stores (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/community/aboutus/retail-stores.jsp?cm_re=home122807*right*retail_home)

As far as other retail saving Bricktown...eh, who knows.

Having been to both Bass Pro and Cabela's...I would definitely have to say we got the short end of the stick. Cabela's is by far superior with their retail locations than Bass Pro.

Cabela's -- Retail Stores (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/community/aboutus/retail-stores.jsp?cm_re=home122807*right*retail_home)

As far as other retail saving Bricktown...eh, who knows.

Having lived in Denver, I got spoiled on REI for my outdoor needs. That place was great.

Every city I've ever lived in or around has paid parking downtown, and it's NEVER only $5. More like $15 and $20 on event nights.


BDP, I think the primary reason people won't drive downtown for retail shopping is parking perception. Everybody I know thinks there's a parking problem down there. I try to tell them that there isn't...But they don't listen. I have a hard time getting people to go down there for the movies with me.

By the way, I was downtown Saturday night, and Bricktown was GORGEOUS with all the whiteness. The streets were a sheet of ice, but still...Awesome. G/F and I got some hot cocoa from Sonic and walked around a bit, checked out a (sadly) fairly empty Red Pin, and looked at the beautiful canal area. I was kicking myself for not having my camera with me. I've been working on my night shooting with some pretty results lately.

Parking can be remedied especially with all the new building that will be going on and the movement of I-40. The already steady traffic of people hanging out there with money to spend would create even more of a "let's spend the day in this area" type feel. Mockingbird Square in the Dallas area would be a great layout to mimic as it is indoor / outdoor quasi shopping eating area. Has some more unique stores such as American Apparel and Urban Outfitters. I think there are lot's of retailers not accounted for at Quail Springs and Penn that would fit nicely into this setting and do well.

O echo that smell, REI is awesome.

If the city had built anything remotely close to the REI hq we have in Seattle instead of that ugly Bass Pro building (and got an exclusitivity agreement for no other stores within a 200 mile radius), then it surely would have been the retail attraction it was pitched to be and would have spurred a lot more retail development by now.

The parking perception is a problem and we need to fix that, because it's ridiculous. Getting in, parking, and getting out of Penn Square Mall is so much harder than doing the same downtown on most days, let alone during the Holidays. Why do people put up with that?

Why do people put up with that? My theories and how they apply to downtown scenario:

1) There are unique shops that are not present anywhere else in town and the ones that are often have a better selection at Penn Square. There is no reason that this couldn't also be the advantage downtown and should, imo, be the focus of any retail development. Right now, the biggest problem we have is that so much down there is available in some fashion somewhere else in the city

2) There is a density of shopping options. Sure, parking is a bitch, but once you park and walk into the mall and to your destination (often times this walk is equidistant or further than it would be downtown), you will have walked past several other shopping options and gained some scale economies with your time. This is currently downtown's problem and the "parking perception" is working against it. The parking perception has created parking panic in developers, resulting in them committing way too much prime space to parking. This has made the ability to create the type of density needed to end the parking perception itself. The parking hassle is all relative to the pay off and access the customer has after parking. If you only have to park once to go to ten places, people will put up with more and even pay more to gain access to those ten places.

So, you can't tell me that Oklahomans won't park and walk to go shopping or to a movie. They jut have some weird perception about downtown. Think about, people won't go to the movies with Oh My Gawd because of parking, but you know they walk just as far to go to a movie at Quail Springs as they would at Harkins? But they think walking through a mall is different... and it probably is, because they walk past shops and other stuff, even though they probably hardly ever go to those places. If you increase the density of stuff in bricktown, you should see the parking perception problem erode, simply because it becomes worth it. The problem we have now is that so much space has been wasted that it may be hard to ever create that density (and the latest attempt to create some density was squashed by the city).

And if you create a density of services, $5-$10 becomes a bargain. Like has been pointed out, no other city has parking as cheap as we do in the core. The difference, however, is that not many cities have such a lack of density of stuff to do in their core. Some sort of mall or shopping plaza is needed to create that density. Think about if $5 got you access to everything that's in downtown, plus a mall. Now, if that still wouldn't work in Oklahoma City, then we might just want to give up on the idea of having a thriving core at all.

I was in Bricktown this weekend when I was home for Christmas and was impressed. I went to the movie theater and the Redpin Bowling Lounge. Even with all the slamming of "lower Bricktown" or "lesser Bricktown" (which I certainly agree with in theory), I just have to say that it looked good, and even if it didn't feel urban at a Chicago or New York level, and even if it could have been so much better, I just came away with a "several steps in the right direction" feeling.

About this mall idea: Downtown and Bricktown desparately need retail. Desparately. But it should not be in an enclosed mall. Putting everybody in one building is going to suck out what little street life is there. It would encourage retailers and restaurants not to locate at street or canal level but inside a big box. And really, if you live in North OKC and your options are "Go to the Gap at Quail Springs" or "Go to the Gap in a Downtown Mall" how many people are really going to choose Downtown as a shopping option, especially if they have to pay to park? Downtown has to be different, a point I think BDP was alluding to. I am no retail expert, but there are lots of other mid-size downtowns that have interesting mixes of local and national retailers, at street level. Besides, indoor malls are dying all over the country.

And about the parking, I agree that Oklahomans have this thing about paying to park. Too many of us were raised in sprawl. But I think people would pay to park if there was perceived value in the urban experience. It's simply a matter of educating the public. I was optimistic about Downtown and Bricktown when I came home, and it seems like perceptions are changing, however slowly. But 30-40 canal and street-level stores and several Urban Outfitters, REIs and the like would change the perceptions a lot quicker.

Having lived in Denver, I got spoiled on REI for my outdoor needs. That place was great.

I would kill for an REI.

Quick note, today on NEWS 9 at 4 they reported that Bricktown is getting a new mixed used building which could stand at 12 stories tall just south of the Mickey Mantel and Skybar Building.

It will have retail and office space on the first three floors, then extend up to 12 stories with Condos. Then a 3 story building connecting to the east.

Here's the story: NEWS9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | Developer hopes project takes root in Bricktown (http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=7580232)

It's no mall. I will take it though, hope it brings a nice shopping area in bricktown.

Quick note, today on NEWS 9 at 4 they reported that Bricktown is getting a new mixed used building which could stand at 12 stories tall just south of the Mickey Mantel and Skybar Building.

It will have retail and office space on the first three floors, then extend up to 12 stories with Condos. Then a 3 story building connecting to the east.

Here's the story: NEWS9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | Developer hopes project takes root in Bricktown (http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=7580232)

It's no mall. I will take it though, hope it brings a nice shopping area in bricktown.

Hi Glenn,

You might try looking in THIS (http://www.okctalk.com/bricktown-wired/11813-12-story-development-bricktown.html) thread in the Bricktown forum. We've already started a thread on it.

I am glad you posted it in the bricktown thread. However, I wanted to put it here because the title is mall downtown in bricktown. And since it is the closest thing to a mall bricktown has seen to this point. I figured it would be nice to post it here as well.

Thank you for your input though.


Hi Glenn,

You might try looking in THIS (http://www.okctalk.com/bricktown-wired/11813-12-story-development-bricktown.html) thread in the Bricktown forum. We've already started a thread on it.