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Pete
12-06-2007, 08:13 AM
The project Wiggin proposed was never viable -- that was pretty obvious from the outset. So why the heck was it chosen?

At least Wiggin builds quality projects so hopefully this won't turn into another Legacy eyesore. However, I still think the competing project was better.

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MidTown housing plan scaled back
By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

A changing housing market is being cited as a reason the developer of the proposed Overholser Greens looks at reducing the size and cost of the MidTown project.

Chuck Wiggin's original Overholser Greens proposal, selected in March by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, called for 109 units in a complex of three four-story towers and one eight-story tower with parking underneath the entire block at NW 13 and Walker Avenue.

Prices were to range between $350,000 and $800,000.

Wednesday, Urban Renewal commissioners approved a redevelopment agreement with Wiggin that allows him to cut the number of units to between 85 and 100. The new, smaller units would sell between $220,000 and $450,000.

"We're trying to address a wider market than our original concept, which was based entirely on empty nester home buyers,” Wiggin said. "The original thought was we would sell units entirely to people moving out of large houses into smaller units. To sell 109 of these units (at the original costs and floor plans) might take us nine years.”

Wiggin said after the meeting that the housing market, including trouble looming with high-end "jumbo” mortgages, prompted him to change the development mix.

The changed plans call for 12 three-story town homes instead of a four-story tower to be built as part of a first phase, but for a second phase to still include an eight-story tower. Following phases would include another set of three-story town homes, and one more four-story tower.

He revised the estimated development cost from $62 million to between $35 million and $40 million.

Urban Renewal commissioners were told in March that Wiggin's proposal was over-priced and wouldn't be feasible.

Daniel Crane, a senior vice president with Plano, Texas-based Capmark, advised that the high-priced condominium market was slowing down nationwide. Crane handled financing for downtown's Legacy at Arts Quarter apartments, and also wasprepared to finance a competing proposal for the site awarded to Wiggin.

Wednesday, Wiggin appeared to confirm that very warning.

"The market is not deep on the high end,” he said.

metro
12-06-2007, 08:27 AM
OCURA Disappoints yet again!!! Unbelieveable! How do they get away with BS like this. First they pick the worst proposal because its probably their buddies, second, they say don't worry, we'll give you the contract, and then you can dilute your proposal even further after you get chosen. I think OCURA should have to do another RFP if the developer is renigging on their original proposal in which they were chosen for.


Midtown condo project sees changes
The Journal Record
December 6, 2007

OKLAHOMA CITY – Original plans for the development of a city block in Oklahoma City’s Midtown for condominiums is undergoing changes and fine tuning, but work is scheduled to begin by July 2008.


Chuck Wiggin, developer for the Overholser Green project, originally received approval from the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority in March to develop vacant land between NW 12th and NW 13th Streets and Walker and Dewey Avenues. The block is the former site of Mercy Hospital. Wiggin’s plan, as originally approved, called for 109 units spread out among four buildings, four four-story and one eight-story, starting at about $350,000 per unit and going up to about $800,000 each.“Since that time we have done extensive research on comparable condominium projects in more than a dozen cities,” Wiggin said. Wiggin said after examining recommendations by a consultant on the project, he has determined it would be prudent to change the unit mix and reduce both the number of units and the average size of the units and offer them at a lower price point. The original plans showed units that were about 2,600 square-feet. Wiggin said he is now targeting units that will average between 1,000 to 2,000 square-feet costing between $250,000 to $450,000 each.The number of units will also be reduced to between 85 to 100 depending on market demand and sales. “It’s my hope that we can build 100 units,” he said.

The new preliminary plans will also target a wider market rather than the original concept, which was geared toward empty-nester homebuyers who might be downsizing from a larger home. After carefully evaluating the market, Wiggin said by targeting that small segment it could take nine years to sell all of the units. “In order to make this project successful, we believe that our target sell-out needs to be three-and-a-half years,” Wiggin said. “Doing that means we need to address a wider audience at lower price points.”

The revised plan still calls for an eight-story building on one corner of the property as well as a four-story building, but with the addition of individual town homes with three per building facing NW 13th Street.

Joe Van Bullard, executive director of Urban Renewal, said the townhomes facing north would fit well with the nearby Heritage Hills neighborhood.“I think one of the attractive design features of this, as opposed to his original, was that on the south side of 13th Street you have the residential feel almost of a Heritage Hills,” Bullard said.

Greg Banta, president of the Banta Companies, which is developing the nearby Plaza Court for retail space, and with plans for condos of his own in two neighboring buildings, said he is ready to see some development on the former Mercy site.“I think any development that goes on that site is going to do extremely well and we’re real excited that Chuck’s moving forward with it,” Banta said. “I view everything that happens on there as a positive for Midtown and a positive for our stuff.”

Under the contract with Urban Renewal, Wiggin must start work on the project by July 1. (I'll believe this when I see it)

Wiggin said he would like to begin two phases of construction concurrently for the first 12 units as well as the eight-story building. The initial sales for the first two phases may well determine the ultimate number of units. Wiggin said he remained optimistic that sales would necessitate 100 total units for the project, but will plan accordingly as the project progresses.“If we encounter trouble moving these units then we may have to rethink what our total unit count is,” he said.

http://journalrecord.com/_images/articles/t_labsurban%20renewal.jpgMembers of the Urban Renewal board discuss various property topics Wednesday in Oklahoma City. Photo by Jennifer Pitts

Midtowner
12-06-2007, 09:45 AM
Wow. They think they can get $250/sq ft. in that part of midtown?

I would be shocked to see anyone buy at that price.

BDP
12-06-2007, 09:55 AM
I really don't understand this. What in the world are they approving in the first place if the plans can be drastically changed by completion. OCURA is clearly a sham. How can this not be a breach? I can't even believe that they will not enforce the proposals that they choose. I am not a lawyer, but how can the competing bids not have grounds to sue now? There needs to be some sort of class action to get this stuff stopped. Is there any cause of action here? It seems that OCURA will never work unless it's forced to.

It was my understanding they chose this because Heritage Hills wanted an "upscale" development. They couldn't deliver so they should start over and have to compete. The other plan was clearly a better mid-level proposal. Sounds like once again OCURA is going to deliver ugly, small, expensive units because what they chose was unfeasible in the first place. Does anyone know what the market is for small, ugly, and expensive these days?

OCURA is robbing Oklahoma City of its urban living future.

metro
12-06-2007, 10:49 AM
Don't forget that Wiggin is one of the good old boys and Marva Ellard (who also had far better proposals for the site) ais not part of the good old boy network. Same goes for McDermid not being a part of it and losing out on "The Hill at Bricktown" which is ironically not in Bricktown but Deep Deuce but of course good ole boys want to capitalize off the Bricktown name.

BDP
12-06-2007, 11:10 AM
BTW, what's a four story "tower"?

Those must be some pretty tall stories. I'm not even sure 8 stories qualifies as a tower. Reminds of when the centennial was announced and our wide eyed media called it a high-rise. :dizzy:

Pete
12-06-2007, 11:16 AM
Here's what OCURA turned down to choose Wiggin's proposal, which was nothing but expensive condos (which were clearly not viable at the price points quoted at the time) and offered nothing to anyone other than the people that could afford to buy them:



•Mercy Park: 111 apartments; 22 for-sale condominiums; 23,725 square feet for restaurants and shops; and a 72-room hotel. The development would be built above a 305-space underground garage. The development group is Mercy Developers, consisting of Marva Ellard and Robert Magrini (who are renovating the nearby Sieber Hotel) and electrical contractor and housing developer M. Paul Iser. The estimated development cost is $48.3 million and the developers are seeking $1.8 million in tax increment financing.


The Mercy Park proposal calls for a restaurant, deli, shops and a grocery to face NW 13 between Dewey and Walker. Condominiums would face Walker while apartments would be built along NW 12 and Dewey. A hotel would be built in the center of the development, with underground parking serving the entire complex.

The buildings would range between three and six stories high.

"Our goal with all this is to design a project that has 24-hour-a-day life to it,” Ellard said. "It would allow employees of the medical institutions to live closer to work.”

Ellard said the market rate apartments would range between 900 and 1,200 square feet.

"We see them being leased by an RN who works at one of the hospitals who might send her child to Villa Teresa or a young couple who are just starting out.”

http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2007/02/22/15/Img/Pc0151000.jpg

betts
12-06-2007, 12:46 PM
Does anyone really know what kind of market there is for Wiggins' original proposed housing? I remember reading that he said he wouldn't start until he'd presold some units. Personally, before I plunked down that kind of money, I'd at least like to walk through a framed unit, and preferably, a model. I'd like to see what building materials were being used, and how the townhouse "felt". I think Midtown probably should have had less expensive apartments for sale and/or rent, as that would suit the neighborhood better. As someone who is contemplating buying a brownstone at Maywood, it's got a better location for what I want, and I've been able to walk through the rooms and get a feel for the design and space. It never occured to me to consider buying a townhome in Wiggins development before it was even started, nor would it now that I have considered it.

Midtowner
12-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Well, the biggest problem with this development as I see it is that he's trying to command the same $/sq ft. as we're seeing at the Centennial. Other properties in the area (Harvey Place) are going for around $175. Seeing that this is even farther from the action than the other properties, I don't really see it justifying the sort of prices they're projecting at.

The high-end condo buyer market in this city is an extremely limited market. Sooner or later, they're going to have to come down in price so that these things are attainable for young professionals as we're more likely to be the kind of people to be interested in this sort of lifestyle.

trison
12-06-2007, 01:16 PM
I really liked Marva Ellard's proposed buildings better but since that went with Wiggins I hope that they will require him to start on the project immediately. Midtown really needs to see more housing if we want the retailers to really start coming into the area.

metro
12-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Mid, what is Harvey Place?? Do you mean the Harvey Lofts?

Midtowner
12-06-2007, 02:22 PM
Yep i do.

ksearls
12-06-2007, 02:33 PM
Don't forget that Wiggin is one of the good old boys

What exactly qualifies someone as a "good old boy"? I would like to know, maybe I am on too! Maybe you can supply a list so we will all know.

jbrown84
12-06-2007, 03:18 PM
Well, they never should have picked Wiggin over Ellard, but now that they have, I'm glad it has been scaled down because it would have been a disastrous failure if built as proposed.

metro
12-06-2007, 03:25 PM
What exactly qualifies someone as a "good old boy"? I would like to know, maybe I am on too! Maybe you can supply a list so we will all know.

According to the OKCTalkapedia:

See OCURA or any of their buddies.

Pete
12-06-2007, 03:40 PM
Well, they never should have picked Wiggin over Ellard, but now that they have, I'm glad it has been scaled down because it would have been a disastrous failure if built as proposed.

True!

And as I mentioned, Wiggin has built a lot of nice developments, like the Waterford complex and Hotel ZaZa in Dallas.


However it once again calls into question OCURA's judgment, as they selected a project that wasn't viable to start with -- so much so that it had to be substantially revised just months after approving.

I'm not a big one on conspiracy/corruption theories but many of their decisions just don't make a lot of sense in terms of what's best for OKC.

BDP
12-06-2007, 03:58 PM
I'm not a big one on conspiracy/corruption theories but many of their decisions just don't make a lot of sense in terms of what's best for OKC.

I agree. I think most of it boils down to ignorance and arrogance. If it wasn't for their pseudo-stealthy way of operating, I would think that was all of it. But at some point you have to start wondering what is really driving their evaluation process. It sure doesn't seem to be viability, feasibility, or appropriateness. And, really, if they would just make some sort of attempt to enforce their initial decisions, then they'd improve their credibility tremendously. As it is now, they come off as some sort of impotent puppet organization that has no real control over development in Oklahoma City

ksearls
12-06-2007, 04:09 PM
like the Waterford complex and Hotel ZaZa in Dallas

Sorry, you got the wrong guy. You are thinking of Charle Givens. I think if you do some background on Chuck Wiggin you will be impressed.

MIKELS129
12-06-2007, 04:13 PM
"And as I mentioned, Wiggin has built a lot of nice developments, like the Waterford complex and Hotel ZaZa in Dallas."

To my knowledge Chuck Wiggins has never built anything! He redeveloped the DEQ building downtown .. go take a look at that. Primarily he has been a property managerfor many properties. He has been trying to redevelop the old Mayo office building in Tulsa for the last several years... but nothing visible is happening yet.
The properties you mention are great and where developed by Charles Givens, not Charles Wiggins.

Mike

Pete
12-06-2007, 04:22 PM
Yes, I was confused! Thanks for the correction.

I know Chuck as a commercial real estate broker and manager... What has he developed?

Has he ever built residential complexes in the past?

MIKELS129
12-06-2007, 04:31 PM
I have asked very knowledgeable people and the only thing they know of is the Mayo office building in Tulsa, it is supposed to be apartments. He got 3 million in Vision 2025 money and has still not started. It is supposed to be apartments. Funny thing seems he is using The Sieber as his finance model, tax credits, city money,etc..
Mike

solitude
12-06-2007, 04:39 PM
What exactly qualifies someone as a "good old boy"? I would like to know, maybe I am on too! Maybe you can supply a list so we will all know.


You may well be. If not now, your hard work in defending their every action will make you one soon.

You do some good work, Kim. However, you seem to always come to the defense of the indefensible because you know many of these people. And, let's be honest, your livelihood depends on good relations with them.

Cronyism is what the "Good old boy" network is all about. It's despicable when it hurts our city. Defend the best for the city - not what's best for the crony network of money grubbing insiders.

wsucougz
12-06-2007, 05:29 PM
Let's put this to another vote and get Marva back in there, or just start over. There's no need to rush this.

Banta can get the Osler done in the meantime.

Pete
12-06-2007, 07:23 PM
Now I'm really worried now that I'm straight that it's Wiggin.

Why was he even qualified to be seriously considered in this process?

Midtowner
12-06-2007, 09:42 PM
What exactly qualifies someone as a "good old boy"? I would like to know, maybe I am on too! Maybe you can supply a list so we will all know.

Are you on the board of any public trusts?

That might just qualify you :)

BDP
12-07-2007, 09:53 AM
Let's put this to another vote and get Marva back in there, or just start over. There's no need to rush this.

Agreed, because we don't want to have to wait until this one gets run down to do it right.

metro
03-20-2008, 07:15 AM
Midtown condos closer to fruition
Journal Record
March 20, 2008

OKLAHOMA CITY – The first phase of a condominium project set for Oklahoma City’s Midtown could break ground by the end of the year.

Chuck Wiggin, with the Overholser Green project, returned to the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority Wednesday for approval of the schematic design for phase one. Wiggin was selected as the developer for the site last year. His plans call for 85 to 100 condominiums on the block bordered by NW 12th Street, NW 13th Street, and Walker and Dewey avenues, to be built in four phases.

The units are expected to be priced in the $250,000 to $450,000 range. Schematic designs for phase one, on the northeast side of the property, would have about 13 town homes facing NW 13th Street, with an average of 2,000 square feet per residence. Wiggin said the plan, which will also hinge on securing financing, will likely have phases one and two under construction at the same time.

Phase two calls for an eight-story building on the southeast corner.“We’re working on designs for the eight-story building right now but we’re not at a stage where we’re ready to submit this,” Wiggin said. (but at least your good old buddies at OCURA approved it over others that were ready)

The goal is to break ground on the eight-story building by the end of this year and start construction of the town homes about three months later. The town homes would be completed first, and the eight-story building could see its first residents by mid-2010. But Wiggin’s update and request for approval was only for the schematic design for phase one.

Dan Batchelor, general counsel for Urban Renewal, explained what was required in the request to approve the schematic design.“The schematic design sets generally the size, the site plan, the general shapes, but it’s not until you get to the next phase, which is called design development, where you specify materials and specifics with respect to interior layout and all the basic components short of construction design that really set that project in place,” Batchelor said.The schematic design was approved, but Wiggin will still have to return with more development and design documents and specifics as the project moves forward.

Wiggin said another concern is making sure the project fits in well with its neighbor to the north, the Heritage Hills neighborhood, especially the town homes facing NW 13th Street.“The idea of this design is to be reflective of the adjacent neighborhood,” Wiggin said.

Marianne Vannatta, with the Heritage Hills neighborhood association, said she was only speaking for herself and not the neighborhood, but has been pleased with the initial plans, and the schematic drawings and proposed design.“Everything I said I liked in design one is showing up here,” she said.

Urban Renewal commissioners did express concern over the exterior building materials. Wiggin said the buildings will likely have a mix of masonry, stucco and cast stone. He explained that the proposed stucco would not be a cheaper product, and would mirror heavier stucco seen throughout the area on historic homes, including his own Heritage Hills home built in 1926. Wiggin said he hoped to start pre-sales and marketing for Overholser Green by late summer and have financing secured later this year.

Despite the prospect of perhaps a bleak financial situation nationwide, Wiggin said he is confident with the local economy and the demand for high-end condominiums.“We’re still cautiously optimistic that it will go well,” he said.

Kerry
03-20-2008, 07:41 AM
You know, when I was a city planner and a developer came to the city they were ready to go 100%. All the plans and financing were in place. All they needed was the building permit that had to go through a couple of review processes. Contruction usually started the day after the building permit was issued. And I can tell you we didn't allow changes. If they changed something the process started over. This made the developer do it right the first time.

Our planning director told the developers not to be coming to the city with any half-ass plans.

BDP
03-20-2008, 08:42 AM
OK, seriously, how do we get Kerry on OCURA? Isn't there a spot opening up with Nichols leaving?

Sounds like you know what to do.

Pete
03-20-2008, 10:43 AM
It seems pretty clear that the citizen committee comprised of Heritage Hills residents had a lot to do with choosing this type of development, even though the property is technically in Midtown.

Of course they want only residential and only higher-end properties, but that doesn't serve the community in any way.

I hope Mr. Wiggin can get this going, though. We'll soon see if OCURA holds him to the deadlines.

BDP
03-20-2008, 04:09 PM
I think you're right Pete and, really, I respect the fact that OCURA would consider the concerns of the surrounding community, even though I disagree with the amount of weight they gave to HH's concerns.

The real tragedy though is that OCURA can't even enforce what it did select, ultimately doing a disservice to both Midtown and the Heritage Hill residents it was trying to serve. Once again, it reveals itself as impotent, while rendering its own conclusions irrelevant. It makes you wonder if no review would ultimately be better than watching this committee hand over projects to unprepared and incompetent developers and never being held accountable for it.

Spartan
03-20-2008, 04:50 PM
Tell me about how Chuck Wiggin is an unprepared and incompetent developer. Do you know him?

warreng88
03-21-2008, 07:31 AM
Here is the latest from the DOK:

Plan for new condos advances

By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

Developer Chuck Wiggin reported Wednesday to the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority that he's hoping to start construction on the first phase of his Overholser Greens condominiums by December but added conditions for such work aren't as great as they were two years ago.

Wiggin presented schematic designs that he called a work in progress. They show a first phase, 13 three-story town homes on the southeast corner of Walker and NW 13, and a second phase that would consist of an eight-story tower on the southwest corner of the block that was once home to Mercy Hospital. Plans call for the first units to be open by mid-2010.

The townhomes would have parking facing an interior drive, while the tower would have underground parking. He said the buildings would be built with a "masonry product” — either brick, cast stone or a material that mimics cast stone — and stucco. The use of stucco was questioned by board Chairman Stanton Young, who said: "We've tried to stay away from stucco.”

"We don't want to confuse this with EIFS or Dry-vit (synthetic stucco) — this would be a much heavier material,” Wiggin said, adding stucco was extensively used with homes in the adjoining Heritage Hills neighborhood.

Wiggin said he hopes to have financing wrapped up by October, and he will know then whether he can start the first two phases concurrently.

"It will be a greater challenge than it was two years ago,” Wiggin said. "But the local economy is still strong.”

Those in attendance at Wednesday's meeting included Heritage Hills resident Marianne Vannatta who has followed the project since it was first proposed last year. Vannatta said she may buy a condominium at Overholser Greens as her current home becomes "too big” for her needs.

"Everything I said I liked in design one I see here,” Vannatta said. "I'm the kind of potential buyer he's looking at, and so far, so good.”

Young and fellow Commissioner Jim Tolbert agreed Overholser Greens is "an important project” that closes the gap between Heritage Hills and MidTown.

"I like the way it has evolved,” Tolbert said. "It does provide the transition we've been looking for.”

okclee
03-21-2008, 07:42 AM
Notice how Wiggins tried to slip "stucco" by the committee, nice try Hogan errrr Wiggin. Keep your stucco junk in Lower Bricktown.

metro
03-21-2008, 08:57 AM
http://static.newsok.biz/article/20080321/3218887/image_3-5_elevation_13th_St.jpg_03-21-2008_6D6RJKO.jpg
The latest designs for the proposed Overholser Greens at NW 13 and Walker. Developer Chuck Wiggin said Wednesday he hopes to start work on townhomes that would face NW 13 and an eight-story tower, as shown in this design by Architectural Design Group. provided by Architectural Design Group

Plan for new condos advances
By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

Developer Chuck Wiggin reported Wednesday to the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority that he's hoping to start construction on the first phase of his Overholser Greens condominiums by December but added conditions for such work aren't as great as they were two years ago.


Wiggin presented schematic designs that he called a work in progress. They show a first phase, 13 three-story town homes on the southeast corner of Walker and NW 13, and a second phase that would consist of an eight-story tower on the southwest corner of the block that was once home to Mercy Hospital. Plans call for the first units to be open by mid-2010.

The townhomes would have parking facing an interior drive, while the tower would have underground parking. He said the buildings would be built with a "masonry product” — either brick, cast stone or a material that mimics cast stone — and stucco. The use of stucco was questioned by board Chairman Stanton Young, who said: "We've tried to stay away from stucco.”

"We don't want to confuse this with EIFS or Dry-vit (synthetic stucco) — this would be a much heavier material,” Wiggin said, adding stucco was extensively used with homes in the adjoining Heritage Hills neighborhood.

Wiggin said he hopes to have financing wrapped up by October, and he will know then whether he can start the first two phases concurrently.

"It will be a greater challenge than it was two years ago,” Wiggin said. "But the local economy is still strong.”

Those in attendance at Wednesday's meeting included Heritage Hills resident Marianne Vannatta who has followed the project since it was first proposed last year. Vannatta said she may buy a condominium at Overholser Greens as her current home becomes "too big” for her needs.

"Everything I said I liked in design one I see here,” Vannatta said. "I'm the kind of potential buyer he's looking at, and so far, so good.”

Young and fellow Commissioner Jim Tolbert agreed Overholser Greens is "an important project” that closes the gap between Heritage Hills and MidTown.

"I like the way it has evolved,” Tolbert said. "It does provide the transition we've been looking for.”

BDP
03-21-2008, 09:12 AM
Tell me about how Chuck Wiggin is an unprepared and incompetent developer. Do you know him?

Do I need to know him? He came to the committee and proposed a development he could not do. He lacked the ability to complete his own project as he proposed it. That's incompetence and he clearly was not prepared to build this. Do I still need to tell you more? Do you know him? Is there something you'd like to share?

Pete
03-21-2008, 09:16 AM
Another shocker: Wiggin is not planning to meet his first deadline (and what do you bet he doesn't start in December, either, as he's already setting the table for that prospect) and OCURA has absolutely nothing to say about it:

From 12/7/2007

Under the contract with Urban Renewal, Wiggin must start work on the project by July 1.

From 3/21/2008

he's hoping to start construction on the first phase of his Overholser Greens condominiums by December but added conditions for such work aren't as great as they were two years ago

http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2008/03/21/22/Img/Pc0222000.jpg

So, we had a developer with direct experience in this particular neighborhood that proposed a unique mixed-use development, with only 22 condos and the rest more affordable apartments and uses that would have been available to the entire neighborhood – and all needed. But no, that gets turned down for a ton of ultra-expensive condos from – as far as I can tell – a developer with no experience in this sort of thing. And then he realizes (surprise!) they were too expensive all along and is starting to worry about selling the units even at lower price points. And if he can’t get the financing or sell these units, then what? There is no provision in his plan for anything else – so I guess the project never gets built or gets partially built and sits mostly empty?

Just when I think we are all being too hard on OCURA, something like this raises it’s head again. WHY are they the only city agency that doesn’t put it’s minutes and supporting documents on the city meeting planning website? WHY do they allow these developers to radically change their original approved plans? WHY are their deadlines a joke? WHY do they reject mixed-use for high-end townhomes??

And WHAT is the story with their selection process where developers can be approved and then immediately, completely change their design plans with hardly a peep from the committee or the slightest consideration to re-opening the process in some semblance of fairness??


And of course, ultimately all these projects do get built in some fashion, although often very far from what had been originally promised (Legacy anyone?). But still, OCURA can go about it’s business because the good citizens of OKC have invested in their community to such an extent that local developers can see a real profit in these properties, so there is real interest in building on city-owned property.

But I still have the very strong feeling the community is not being well-served by their actions.

jbrown84
03-21-2008, 09:51 AM
I'm surprised they questioned the stucco at all.

trison
03-21-2008, 10:17 AM
Did Banta put in a proposal? From what I have seen he's the only one that does what he says he's going to do.

okclee
03-21-2008, 10:17 AM
I have said from the beginning that this looked, in all aspects, like the Legacy Quarters Project all over again.

First the delays and more delays. Then more changes to the drawings and specifications for construction. Drag the project out long enough and blame the weather the economy, whatever it takes to build a cheap looking suburban apartment complex with outrageous pricing.

soonerguru
08-04-2008, 12:07 PM
I do not have high hopes for this property -- if it is indeed ever developed in the first place. That's sad.

wsucougz
08-04-2008, 03:35 PM
I am reading on various real estate forums that many banks are now requiring personal guarantees on financing for developments such as this. If true, this could have grave consequences for many projects.

Anyone in the know care to comment?

OKCTalker
08-04-2008, 03:56 PM
I think that personal recourse is a reasonable requirement on commercial financing, and I'm a borrower.

Pete
08-04-2008, 04:17 PM
In the original post, it sure sounded like Marva Ellard already had her financing in place.

Boy, I'm sure glad OCURA decided not to pick that project.:rolleyes:

jbrown84
08-04-2008, 05:38 PM
Well on the bright side, maybe it won't get built at all, and we'll eventually get a good quality mixed use development after all.

Pete
08-04-2008, 07:12 PM
I hate to wish for the failure of any project but I was thinking the same thing, jb.

However, even if Ellard had funding before it will probably be much more difficult to get in today's conditions.

wsucougz
08-04-2008, 08:14 PM
I see parallels to this in Humphrey's NW 36th st. mixed-use proposal. Many area residents would love to put the kibosh on that, just like Heritage Hills seemed to have done to Marva Ellard's proposal. It just goes to show you that even more progressive thinking neighborhoods fear change. There are enclaves all over that have retail at the heart or on the edge(Paseo in OKC). Everyone wants a buffer, which seems like a pretty suburban way to think.

PapaJack
08-04-2008, 08:39 PM
Everyone wants a buffer, which seems like a pretty suburban way to think.

Since when is preserving property values only a "suburban" way of thinking? Living in the burbs is a decision, just like opting for the urban experience.

wsucougz
08-04-2008, 08:55 PM
Since when is preserving property values only a "suburban" way of thinking? Living in the burbs is a decision, just like opting for the urban experience.

I'm talking about urban dwellers getting the things they claim to want, like shops and restaurants/bars they can walk to, unique infill, affordable housing. They want them alright, just not in their own backyards. Looking at it as a way to preserve property values is a fearful way of thinking. If done right, property ends up being more desireable than it previously was. My comparing it to a suburban mentality comes down to this: If everyone gets a buffer, you end up having to go for a drive to find any meat.

God forbid we have to take any risks around here.

Kerry
08-04-2008, 08:56 PM
Preserving property values via a buffer? How do you figure? The most expensive property in the world doesn't have any buffers at all - Hong Kong, Tokyo, New York City, London, and on and on and on. I'll bet if you could list every parcel in the world and rank them by price per sq foot you would be way way way down the list before you go to the first parcel that had any buffer zone. Conversely, the bottom of the list would consist entirely of wide open spaces.

Want to get the price up – get the density up. The rest of the world has proven it.

jbrown84
08-05-2008, 11:54 AM
The property values argument is weak, weak, weak.

Pete
08-05-2008, 06:54 PM
I did not realize until taking a harder look at this particular property that there is exactly zero homes that border it on any side!

It's on the south side of 13th, so you'd have to cross that 4-lane street and then half a block of existing office development before you hit Heritage Hills homes.

On all other sides is commercial development as well:

http://www.pc78.com/images/okctalk/mercypark1.jpg

PapaJack
08-05-2008, 07:58 PM
So now that we have determined a buffer zone already exists for Overholser Green, to what can we attribute the resistance to the development? The condemned, rat infested, wino laden Mercy Hospital Building was deplorable at best. Any development would be better than it was, even the vacant lot it is now.

jbrown84
08-05-2008, 09:51 PM
PapaJack, the resistance to Overholser Green is because it's high priced condos (which we have a glut of) with no mixed use. Marva Ellard's Mercy Park would have had retail, a small hotel, and a mix of leased and lower end for sale condos.

Pete's post is meant to point out that there is already a precedence for office and retail an all four borders of the property. So why did the Heritage Hills residents push for Overholser Green?

PapaJack
08-06-2008, 08:57 PM
Thank you for clarifying the issue. Its been so long since the three proposals were considered I forgot the details.


a mix of leased and lower end for sale condos.

This seems to me and my "suburban mind" to be a potential threat to property values, especially those as large as Heritage Hills; the dreaded "Not in my back yard" syndrome.

Are Heritage Hills residents urban dwellers or just suburbanites masquerading as urban dwellers? Or do all homeowners fear those who lease or have lesser incomes?

jbrown84
08-07-2008, 07:03 PM
Well I think the key here is that, even if they are not million dollar condos, it doesn't mean they are going to be rented out for $200 a month. These would still be expensive by a lot of people's standards and they wouldn't attract the kind of people that would lower property values by treating the property poorly or attracting crime.

Pete
12-01-2008, 08:32 PM
I was just thinking about this project today, as the original July 1 deadline has been completely ignored and was followed by a promise to start in December.

I haven't heard anything so I have to assume this isn't going forward, at least any time soon.

wsucougz
12-01-2008, 09:17 PM
I was just thinking about this project today, as the original July 1 deadline has been completely ignored and was followed by a promise to start in December.

I haven't heard anything so I have to assume this isn't going forward, at least any time soon.

I was thinking about this too. Mainly about how Marva Ellard's plan was much better and would have actually been built. I wonder if she would still be game, or could even get financing at this point. This would imply OCURA having to eat a little crow, though.

DelCamino
12-02-2008, 01:23 PM
I was thinking about this too. Mainly about how Marva Ellard's plan was much better and would have actually been built. I wonder if she would still be game, or could even get financing at this point. This would imply OCURA having to eat a little crow, though.

Having had intimate information about both of the plans, I can tell you that Ms. Ellard's plan was not superior to the one that was eventually selected. There were major questions with the proposal, as well as with the financial numbers presented - they didn't work.

Also, her track record in actually completing a developement project in a reasonable amount of time (defined as under 5 years, at a minimum) was not good.

CuatrodeMayo
12-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Looks like Wiggin isn't doing much better in this instance.

In terms of design, Ms Ellard's plan was far superior.