Caught this in the Edmond Sun this morning.

Life Church plans growth
John A. Williams
The Edmond Sun


EDMOND— Edmond Planning Commissioners face a short agenda of only four items Tuesday.

First is consideration of an amendment to a previously accepted plat of the Boulevard Place addition. This is the first case with the new Title 22 ordinance where notices are required when there is a redivision of a previously accepted plat, City Planner Bob Schiermeyer said.

Builder Gary Randolph is requesting deed approval to create three lots west of Rankin, south of Steve Douglas Drive across from Central Middle School.
The commission also will consider a site plan for a more than 29,000-square-foot expansion to Life Church at 4500 E. Second St.

The church is proposing a 4,700-square-foot office expansion, a 9,700-square-foot lobby expansion and a 14,600-square-foot children’s wing and hall addition.

Commissioners will consider a deed approval of 2.15 acres north of 15th Street and west of Kelly for a potential fire station site. The City of Edmond is considering buying the land east of the Westbrook Shopping Center.

Another item up for consideration is an ordinance amending Edmond Plan IV to no longer require Planned Unit Development applications for amendments to the Edmond Plan as a minimum requirement with every application.

The planning meeting will begin at 5:30 p.m. at the Downtown Community Center, 28 E. Main in Room 107. The meeting will be broadcast live on the city’s government access channel 20 on Cox Cable.

And this is the first you've heard of this, metro?

They are adding another campus in Tulsa too.

yes jbrown, I did hear about what kmf stated that we just announced a 2nd Tulsa area location. The first location was getting so many people in the fire marshall had to turn some people away because it was so packed.

I am tired of seeing churches expand or add locations. I would like to see these churches open homeless and battered women shelters. At least they would be doing god's work such as feeding the hungry and taking care of those who are less fortunate.

Then again shelters do not put a new mercedes in the pastor's drive way, by him a house in Cabo, cover his drug addiction, or pay the little naive college girl to keep her mouth shut about the little oops he concieved with her.

Didn't know lifechurch.tv's pastors drove a mercedes, vacay house in cabo, drug addiction, etc. In fact, I know several LC pastors that have old, run down cars. Lifechurch.tv does have inner city ministries such as Mercy Ministries that cater to homeless, battered, neglected, poor and others on a daily basis. The church recently had a homeless event in downtown OKC 2 weeks ago and ministered and helped over 1000 homeless people.

LC also provided families and teachers of Tulakes elementary (states poorest and most crime ridden school district) Thankgsiving meals. The church is also providing Christmas gifts for the 20,000 plus kids in the Oklahoma County DHS and Juvenile system who would otherwise not have a Christmas.

I'm tired of people bashing churches but yet they expect the churches to do the work most people and governments don't want to do (take care of the homeless, help the poverty stricken, help the abused, provide free medical care, etc.) while most people just sit and complain about it and do little or nothing. I think the church should play a vital role in these areas and more, however it takes a community to address these problems.

Just curious oneforone, seems like God's blessed you with the burden to help the homeless and battered women. Have you opened a homeless or battered women shelter?

I just bought my homeless boy's lifepack today! The reason i said my homeless boy is b/c you can choose boy/girl & age. Also, you can choose a homeless child, foster care child, or single parent child. Oneforone, please feel free to donate a lifepack as well!

I am tired of seeing churches expand or add locations. I would like to see these churches open homeless and battered women shelters. At least they would be doing god's work such as feeding the hungry and taking care of those who are less fortunate.

Then again shelters do not put a new mercedes in the pastor's drive way, by him a house in Cabo, cover his drug addiction, or pay the little naive college girl to keep her mouth shut about the little oops he concieved with her.

I can assume that you are not a church attender. I don't stereotype you by assuming you must be a drug dealer who beats his wife and doesn't pay child support and embezzles money from his employer. So how about you don't stereotype every church based on a few situations that the media sensationalized? Mmmmkay?

I assume you don't know much about the ugly money driven underbely of the religion industry, of which Groeshel and LC are at the zenith of. This business sensationalizes itself quite sufficiently without any help from the media. So putting it off of the media is less than honest.

The name Richard Roberts ring some bells? Mmmmkay?

Rev. Gary Aldridge, Mmmmkay?

Lonnie Latham, Mmmmkay?

Ted Haggard, Mmmmkay?

And that's just the past year.

Any preacher who builds a cult of personality around themselves is more often than not found at the business end of a scandal. They go hand in glove together.

There are exceptions, but most of them were probably either not caught or better at bribery.

And, in complete honesty, LC reveals very, very little about how Groeshel lives or the perks and privileges he is afforded in his position. He does not live like a pauper or even a middle class guy. He has quite a number of the accoutrements of the ultra-wealthy like a driver. He has admitted as much. I promise you the demands of driving across town a few times for services is no less demanding the average parent who's shuffling around their kids.

Groeshel doesn't seem to do much kid shuffling. I'd bet they have somebody that does that for him and his wife since she directs the home school program which has to be a big job.

So, I'd be fairly careful in how you describe his ability to walk on water. In fact, you might try to remove the scales from your eyes and try to see the LC corporation for what it is--a huge money making machine that markets Groeshel's purported "charisma" and rather indistinct and pedestrian theology as something profound and spiritual.

If this is possible, you might still like LC. Some people find Wal-mart a quality shopping experience.

You might also consider that there are are also millions of people who do Christ's work without the benefit of millions of dollars of high tech production. The people to minister to the world anonymously as Jesus advocated rather than the huge spectacle of the pharisee and money changer operations of the mega-church.

You love Groeshel. Good for you. All charismatic evangelists need a flock to fleece to keep the empire growing.

So, feel good that you have a "special purpose" for LC. Maybe you'll become a "fully developed follower of Christ before the megalomania and shallowness of the enterprise burns you out.

You might not want to put words in my mouth.

I do not LOVE Craig Groeshel, nor do I agree with everything that Lifechurch does. I do not attend there and never will. If you read the last few pages of the Lifechurch thread, you will see that I disagree with many of their tactics.

But I felt the need to defend them because, unlike Richard Roberts and others like him who have been money-grubbing slimeballs for years, Groeschel and Lifechurch have no record of unethical practices, and I'm tired of people assuming that all popular pastors/churches must automatically fall into the same category as Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker. You just don't hear about the good ones in the media. For the 4 scandal-stricken ministers you listed, there are hundreds and hundreds that did nothing wrong.

Pardon me if I mischaracterized your opinion.

You might be a little more leery of Groeshel. I've been following the words and actions of LC for over 10 years and I'm pretty sure when Groeshel says "fully devoted follower of Christ," he really means "fully devoted follower of Groeshel."

I could be wrong but it's hard not to see LC as a money and ego driven enterprise more than anything else.

As for the "hundreds and hundreds", there really aren't that many who have operations the size of LC and those which are are almost never particularly virtuous.

Edmond_Outsider... do you or have you ever attended LC? Are you involved in the church... LifeGroup, Volunteer, anything? Or do you just follow from a distance? Do you know what kind of accountability is in place for Craig and the way he lives his life? Do you know how much LC employees are paid? Are you Southern Baptist?

Yes, I've attended services at LC and on the virtual church. Don't try and claim that doesn't count because, after all, that's what it's there for. I am not involved in the "life" branded groups because I'm an active member in a small church--not SBC or trying to compete with Groeshel.

I began following LC and Groeshel because I started hearing more and more about how "cool" it was, and "moving, and meaningful. My first impression was that I couldn't understand what the hubbub was. Whatever "charisma" Groeshel is supposed to have is lost on me.

In fact, he just reminded me of the bullies in high school who pick on the smallest guy in the class and flush his head in the toilet.

I also found his theology to be shallow. A rapid fire delivery of proof texts that promote a mostly moralistic theology but with enough undercutting using his patented "earthy humor" that it could easily fit any body's world view, theology, or life style.

Except homosexuals of course. Thom Collins' experience shows just how compassionate Groeshel can be when faced with losing his bid dollar homophobe followers.

But, all that is beside the point. I don't have to be a hollow eyed zombie adherent to offer a valid opinion on this organization.

As far as "accountability," I've seen the videos he's filmed in his house and it's fairly clear that he's not living a humble existence. But, that's beside the point.

I know how easy it is for any organization to manipulate "accountability" in order to do anything they want. Richard Roberts is merely the latest example of financial malfeasance capable by stacking the board in you favor.

I am not a Southern Baptist although they are certainly every bit as much part of the mega church phenomenon and every bit as corrupted by ambition, ego, and money.

My last "live" service was at the NW OKC branch and was a funeral. Not exactly a standard service but a service non the less. The eulogy's theme was "He who knows God, knows life." Sound familiar? If you can't say something nice, promote the brand. It's a good philosophy for a business, after all.

As for accountability, do you know what kind of accountability is in place for Craig?

If they are trying to be open and honest about it, they do a great job of hiding that information publicly.

What they aren't trying to hide is the full throttle ambition to grow the enterprise.

At some point, any ministry reaches a point where it becomes less about "ministering" and mostly about commerce. Once they reach that level, it is not very different from any other business and in business the only rule is , really, to do what ever you must to increase market share, increase profitability, and get big or die.

Yes, the branding of LifeChurch goes too far, I agree. "Life" everything. The body doesn't exist for the church, the church exists for the body. In fact, in Christian theology, the church IS the body - so branding the experience is actually heretical as the experience is actually nothing more than Christ alive in the body - or church. In the case of LifeChurch, and many mega-churches, it seems that the opposite is preached. Jesus is nothing more than the catalyst which brings everybody on Sunday to promote LifeChurch (or Joel Osteen's church or many other mega-churches). I'm no Christian fundamentalist by any stretch, but the "branding" of the church before the message of Christ is truly idolatrous.

Do you know that LC gives all of their branded LC materials away to any church or group that wants to use them. Most "mega" churches sell there materials (videos, teaching materials, study guides, lifegroup lessons, etc. etc.). LifeChuch gives them away to hundreds of churches.

There is quite a bit of accountability in place for Craig. I am not going to debate LC with you guys. People love to bash on LC, some with good reason. I used to look at LC in a negative light. Before I moved, I volunteered at multiple services and participated in a LifeGroup. Being apart of the church body and not just attending a service changed my perspective as I suppose it would with any church. My involvement with the staff and other volunteers gave me insight in to the church leadership and the mission and vision. For me... it is exciting. For others, it is not their thing.

I don't understand why "Christians" love to bash churches that are not their own. I have seen it happen at every church I have ever been a part of. Most of the reason that I stopped attending church for a few years. I have very strict legalistic friends that judge those that are more free spirited. I have free spirited Christian friends that bash on the ones that are legalistic. Different strokes for different folks.

I respect your opinion to not like LC, but I don't understand why you bash the church. I find it funny that you make claims that are completely false.

Well said TS the third. Usually the bashers are the ones that don't have enough information to make a reasonable conclusion. I've seen Craigs house (probably a 250K house about 2500 or so sq. ft and he has 6 kids, it looks like the average suburban cookie cutter house) (probably smaller than many people's on OKCTalk), he doesn't have a driver although he does have a bodyguard sometimes because of people who make death threats to him and his family (something you probably don't have to deal with), he drives a modest car (a used GMC SUV), and he has multiple levels of accountability, more than I've seen for anyone christian or non-christian and I don't know how detailed it may be.

If LC was out to make a quick buck, why did they get rid of their "coffee shops" more than a year ago while all the more "traditional" churches are now putting them in. LC lost more than $100 grand on their bookstores last year because they sold items at or below cost and gives some away for free. As TStheThird said, LC also gives materials for free to thousands of churches around the world each week. LC is also closing all their bookstores by the end of the year to focus on missions and other ministries.

If you dispise the church so much Edmond Outsider, why do you waste your time with it and continue to follow it. Is it because you want it to fail and you haven't found something to nail it for after 10 years? I've gone to the church for almost 10 years now and it was not as you describe, if you have followed it for that long, you would know that the church does not refer to itself or believe it is a mega-church and that there is no mega-church in the world, how can any church claim that when their are 7 billion people in the world, and any given church only has a small portion of the population within it's membership. There is a whole world out their in need of the gospel.

ok... i've avoided this long enough.

first, i want to say that i also feel that comparing lifechurch with the likes of roberts, et al. is a bit unfair. while i'm skeptical of lc and its doctrine, i don't think that they are anywhere in the same ballpark as the major televangelists.

however, reading these posts have left some questions...

a couple of you have insisted that many 'levels of accountability' exist within lc's organizational structure. precisely what are these built in checks? please elaborate, i'd like to know.

second, it's been claimed that groeschel's house is relatively small. whoever has seen it, can you provide the home's location? i've never been able to find it on any county's tax records. even a cross street would be helpful. from looking at county records, i do know that some of the other senior pastors live in homes that are worth far more than 250k.

-M

If LC was out to make a quick buck, why did they get rid of their "coffee shops" more than a year ago while all the more "traditional" churches are now putting them in. LC lost more than $100 grand on their bookstores last year because they sold items at or below cost and gives some away for free. As TStheThird said, LC also gives materials for free to thousands of churches around the world each week. LC is also closing all their bookstores by the end of the year to focus on missions and other ministries.


I don't know a lot about it, but at a glance, I think you answered your own question. I'd say they're getting of their coffee shops and book stores because they're hemorrhaging money.

mmm, some of the accountability measures that I do know (and I'm sure there are even more that I don't know about) is that Craig's and other LC pastors internet usage is monitored at work and at home, secondly, no one is allowed to travel alone while on work, males must travel with another male and females must travel with another female (obviously if a male traveled with a female, it would create temptation), they also meet with their accountability partners at least on a weekly basis that I know of and perhaps even a daily basis to make sure they are staying faithful in whatever areas. Those are all that come to mind off the top of my head, if I think of a few others I'm aware of I'll post them as well.

I don't know a lot about it, but at a glance, I think you answered your own question. I'd say they're getting of their coffee shops and book stores because they're hemorrhaging money.

Point understood however don't you think the 100+K would be better spent elsewhere instead of "hemorraging" or supplementing coffee and books. After all, most of you criticize the church for not doing more works in the community, the money saved will allow the church to focus on other areas such as missions, new campuses (thus reaching more unsaved or unchurched and thus launching new ministries from those locations), compassion ministries, etc.

thanks, metro. when you discussed 'accountability' i had assumed that this related to finances given that everything else in your paragraph was discussing money. tsthethird, seemed to be discussing money when it came to accountability as well.

you say you've seen the house... where is it?

-M

Point understood however don't you think the 100+K would be better spent elsewhere instead of "hemorraging" or supplementing coffee and books. After all, most of you criticize the church for not doing more works in the community, the money saved will allow the church to focus on other areas such as missions, new campuses (thus reaching more unsaved or unchurched and thus launching new ministries from those locations), compassion ministries, etc.

That's one of the very few things that impresses me about organized religion. Most other areas about it make me want to puke.

The hard-sell tactics when it comes to saving people gets on my nerves the most I think.

Craig has people that monitor his finances. He has been offered double, triple what he makes at LC to pastor other churches. In 10 years, he will no longer take a salary. He is a very frugal person.

Metro is right about the other accountability that is in place. His life is completely transparent to a sizeable group of people not made up of the other "higher ups" in the churh.

I will say that when I first started going to LC, I thought a lot of the messages were watered down. In the last two years, I really feel like the messages have become more intense. A few have had a bigger impact on my life than any other sermons I have heard. The man has passion and vision. It excites me because their model for church is in line with the way I would organize and grow a church. Doesn't make it the best or "right", it makes it a church that has provided me community, fellowship, accountability, discipleship and opportunities to minister to others.

A lot of really talented people have taken a pay cut to be a part of what LC is doing.

Thom Collins' experience shows just how compassionate Groeshel can be when faced with losing his bid dollar homophobe followers.

What is this referring to?

craig has people that monitor his finances.

who are these people?


he has been offered double, triple what he makes at lc to pastor other churches.

which churches have extended this offer?


and still, metro... where is this house you saw?

-M

I can find out if it means that much to you on what churches have offered. The house metro saw is Craig's decoy house. He acutally lives in a 20,000 sq ft secret underground complex. It is constructed of Italian marble and gold. It is pretty awesome. I go there for poker tournaments every Tuesday.

mmm, obviously craig has tried to remove himself of debates such as one you and others are trying to start. If he wants to remain private in his family life (including where he lives) then I will respect his opinion and privacy and not publicly post his address, in fact, I'm pretty sure that would be against the TOS of this website. As I've mentioned before he receives death threats from so called Christians and non-Christians and I don't think he'd appreciate anyone openly posting his address over the internet. Heck we have a few on this website who passionately despise him. We've also made clear before, he became self made on his own through investments in rental houses long before the church was remotely successful. His salary is not near what you probably think it is. Did you catch the story a few weeks ago on KFOR about local pastors salaries? You can go to NewsChannel 4 KFOR-TV-DT Oklahoma's Award-Winning - News, Weather, Sports and more - home page (http://www.kfor.com) and click on the "Divine Dollar" section on the front page under Special Reports. The pastor of Crossings Community Church was the one living extavagantly and in a house of over $1million.

I'm not trying to "get" LC. If I were, I'd be doing investigative journalism instead of responding to posts in a forum.

At the same time, I'm not impressed by Groeshel or LC. That's a personal reaction. Clearly lots of people are. Then, lots of people are wrong lots of time.

I am wrong at times as well. Groeshel may be the second coming of Jesus for all I know and I'm missing out on the End-Times-Express.

Then again, isn't the Antichrist supposed to be Charismatic? Hmmm....

Clearly lots of other people think he is pretty darn special. It's all too wrapped up in personality cultishness for me to find it to have any spiritual significance. That's a personal reaction. Some of you folks really find the mcdonalds/wal-mart/mega-mall approach to religion meaningful. Good for you. It's not for me.

Regardless of that, I'm perhaps too cynical and too knowledgeable about the big religion business to not be highly suspicious of any body's motives for pursuing this kind of enterprise.

If history has a single example of pure motives or even only slightly impure motives for operating a hyper-expansionist, pastor-glorifying, idolatry laden ministry, please point that out to me. I'd be curious to discover that rare individual.

I'm not against religion or spirituality so save the stone throwing.

Maybe Groeshel's motives are pure. It's hard for me to see it that way. The pastors I know who really seem motivated to serve something other than for their own glory are living in poverty and obscurity because that's about the only way it works.

I think the whole question being debated here is wrong. Debating the godliness of a mega-church mogul is like debating the chastity of a prostitute. There may be varying degrees virtue about the individuals involved, but ultimately the whole business is fairly tainted by nature.

Theologically, the line between "charisma" and "idolatry" is pretty thin if there is a line at all. If your ambition is to put yourself forward as the face and persona of a gigantic, global "ministry," then who or what is the subject of worship?

To be clear, I don't have a problem with idolatry. Show business is the business of creating idols. That's fine me--I'm not hung up on separating the secular and non-secular worlds. Show business is at least honest in being a human enterprise.

LC and Groeshel are also in show business. However, in "the church" one has to operate under the pretense of being above or at least outside the prurient motivations of the rest of us.

As for the "accountability," mentioned above, it's funny how many "ministers" feel the need to insulate themselves from sexual temptation. Then again, Groeshel is a pretty traditional moralist when it comes to sex so it would make perfect sense that his "accountability" would focus first on that.

If I recall correctly, a few years ago he said men and women shouldn't even have platonic relationships because it would taint the ability to have a successful marriage. The bizarre repressed sexuality behind these things indicate perhaps the direction Groeshel might be most vulnerable. Anybody remember when they used to promote him as looking like Tom Cruise?

Jim Baker had this kind of thing as well. His handlers ended up being his pimps because in the cult of personality, the handlers will often be the very people who promote and enable undesired behavior in order to curry favor. Financial auditors put in place to limit excesses end up devising how a private plane can be "justified" for "security" reasons or the home remodelling is necessary for whatever other self-interested rationalizations endears them to the alpha dog. What's good for the Shepard is good for the sheep, after all.

Perhaps they could try a chastity belt and cut costs.

I don't really care that much about LC. I'm irritate by hypocrites and con men and sad that people get taken advantage of. Perhaps this isn't what will happen with LC. However, at this point, it has all the earmarks of future tabloid fodder.

i don't think posting the closest intersection would be a violation of tos nor an invasion of privacy. that is, if you actually know it. from prior conversations, the only house you've ever claimed to know is one you've seen from videos you've seen in church. not that you've actually been to the groeschel's house... it looks like you were trying to pull a fast one. dishonesty is not a quality that i appreciate.

the fact of the matter is, that when pressed for facts neither of you actually have them. your evidence is anecdotal at best and completely make-believe at worst. that's why when pressed for actual evidence, you break out into hyperbole or misdirection in an attempt to make up for your lack of any real information. nice try. really.

-M

so I'm wrong just because I won't post the pastors exact address or nearest intersection so you can gladly go drive by his house, take pictures and/or who knows what else? My disclosure of LC's pastor's privacy is as hidden as your motives with why you need that information. Just because your a master debater doesn't mean you're right. We get it already you hate LC, now get over it already.

no, i don't hate lc. i hate dishonesty and dishonest people. i was happy to stay out of this thread until you started making stuff up in order to defend lc's practices. you're wrong because you're being dishonest... that, i can't respect.

-M

so now I'm dishonest because I won't post my senior pastor's address? It's clear you strongly dislike LC, you always have something negative to say, so using your methodology of using old posts as basis of judgement, one could say you hate or strongly dislike LC.

nope. has nothing to do with the address. besides, the closest intersection wouldn't bely his exact whereabouts anyway... the privacy thing is just a means to cover up the fact that you don't even know... the only place you've even seen anything purported as being groeschel's house is from videos. you've said so yourself. but that's beside the point.

the whole point is that just like this, you seldom back up the things you say with cold, hard facts. if someone wants you to prove what you say then they're labeled as a hater. you try to change the subject or just make stuff up to keep your position intact... just as you tried to imply financial accountability when you are unable to provide actual examples of such. your arguments are seldom (if ever) substantiated by facts. since this is regular practice for you, i don't have much reserve in calling you dishonest... and if you think i'm being dishonest, i invite you to call me out on it. fair is fair.

it's true that i disagree with lifechurch's theology. it's true that i'm skeptical of the intentions of that church's leadership (you provide no credible evidence to support the contrary) however, i'm equal opportunity when it comes to speaking out against what i think is wrong... i think it was unfair to compare groeschel with roberts. i've seen nothing supporting that assertion and i wasn't silent about it.

if someone thinks that a practice is flawed or perceives a wrong, then he's supposed to be silent about it, metro? is that the type of teaching you follow?

-M

Every year, they have an event for all of the volunteer staff. Pastor Craig talks about the accountability that is place for him. He does not go into intense detail. I know from friends that work there that he does not make six figures from the church. Some people don't like that he makes money from book sales or that he made money in real estate before he became a pastor. I don't understand that, but people are entitled to their opinion. If you want, I will call some people and find out the exact structure of Craig's accountability.

I also know from friends that work at the church that the church staff is not paid high salaries. They are actually quite low compared to other churches of all sizes. I have a friend that is a youth pastor at one of the campuses. He is moving to take a job with a church in Colorado later this month. The much smaller non mega church will pay him more than double what he made at LC. Not the reason he left, but true real life example of the church staff not being paid giant salaries. I know you probably think that everyone else is paid little because Craig is paid a lot. Not true.

mmm... what will your argument be about Craig when he no longer takes a salary from the church? Why can a pastor not obtain financial success if it above board. My sister is at Divinity school in Seattle and a few of the ordained ministers that are professors at her school own a pub. Are they in the wrong? One of the Pastors at church we are visiting in VA is an old money millionaire. Should he give all the money away even though he already tithes and gives offerings well over 10% to the church?

Why are churches that have large membership bad? If your church grows beyond a certain level, does your pastor become untrustworthy? Please educate me...

tsthethird,

first, thanks for a rational and intelligent response.

as for accountability, what you detail seems like a positive thing but perhaps lacking. it's one thing to disclose to staff (volunteer or otherwise) and it's another thing entirely to make public disclosure. i know of many congregations that publicly post all financial data. every dollar amount is accounted for. the total amount of contributions that come in. the total amount of other income (renting the building, etc) the amount paid for each position, from minister to janitor. the amount paid for mortgages. for outreach. for missions. for benevolence. etc. everything is broken down and transparent. this information is freely dissiminated every year to all the congregation's members. no secrets. i think that's the level of accountability i prefer to see... and i'm skeptical, especially in larger organizations, when i see significantly less disclosure than this. does lc do something similar?

as for salaries, i certainly think that pastors, ministers, etc. desrve to be paid for their work. i do realize that what is considered extravagant is not necessarily a black-and-white issue. i think such people should be paid enough for them to take care of their family's needs and to be comfortable enough so that they can focus on what they perceive as doing god's work. but what is comfortable? i have to concede that that is subjective.

i don't know what groeschel makes at lc, but for the sake of argument i'll concede that the salary he draws is less than six figures. i don't think it really matters in this case... groeschel's book sales have been fueled by the success of lc. therefore the money he makes at writing books is a direct result of the church... and nearly as good as any salary. the congregation is his primary means of promoting his 'brand.' looks like free advertising to me. so even if he draws no salary from the church, it would still be a promotional tool for him and would positively affect his book sales.

as for income from other sources, i have to say that there is no problem with profiting as long as it is above board. the question is if it is at the expense of something else. groeschel's personal success being so closely tied to lc's concerns me. is he profitting off of the church? is he deriving personal gain off of lc's success? beyond a shadow of a doubt, i don't know.

as for the example of the professors you gave, i think i would have a problem with that. not because of the business venture, but because of the nature of the business. i'm not sure that a business that promotes intoxication is the right kind of business for an ordained minister. i don't think it sets the right example or promotes the right values... though that's just my personal opinion and it wouldn't trouble me enough to speak out about it.

i don't think that churches with large memberships are bad, per se. i do think that it is a less than optimal situation, though. beyond a certain point, people can get lost in the crowd. the chances that leadership really knows its flock and can address the needs of each individual is pretty slim.

it's not as if size makes my minister (we don't do the pastor thing, btw) untrustworthy. it's that i find that most megachurches are doctrinally weak. their aim generally comes across as to be appealing to the maximum number of people rather than to abide by what is true. perhaps i unfairly generalize huge churches, but i have yet to see otherwise. it's therefore not the size but the substance that i'm most critical of.

hope that wasn't too long. :P

-M

I agree with most of what you say about mega churches. It wasn't until I committed to volunteering every weekend and started attending a lifegroup that I started to change my mind. Like anything I guess, if you make an investment, you get a return. For me, LC is great... it has been a blessing and added value to my life as a Christian. For others, it will not be.

y'know, ts... it's a free country and i think that's great. if lc has added value to your life, then more power to you. it's not as if i ran into you on the street and you told me that you went to lc that i'd bring any of this up.

i think the main thing that sparks me is when metro makes stuff up to defend lc's practices and says arrogant and belittling remarks about other churches who are trying just as hard to make a difference.

-M

Edmond church may buy vacant department store
The Journal Record
December 4, 2007

EDMOND – An Edmond–based church with congregations around the state and the country has its sights on a vacated department store space in Midwest City to use as a new church building.

Life Covenant Church, Inc., known as LifeChurch.tv, has made an offer on the 100,000-square-foot former Dillard’s department store in Heritage Park Mall, at 6809 E. Reno Ave., for $1.5 million and expected to close the deal late Monday.

The church began in Edmond in 1996 and now has 12 branches, with four in Oklahoma City, one in Tulsa and one in Stillwater in addition to branches in Arizona, Florida, New York, Tennessee and Texas. The church’s main office is in Edmond.

Bobby Gruenewald, pastor, innovation leader for LifeChurch.tv, said the church has looked at potential buildings around Oklahoma City in recent years including Midwest City for further growth. “We just saw the opportunity to purchase that facility,” he said. “We felt like it would be a great facility for our needs, great location, and so we just simply felt like it was the right place we needed to be.”But Gruenewald was quick to add that despite the purchase there is no immediate timeline yet for when a branch of the church might open in the space or what would be the cost for renovation.

The church most recently expanded into a leased space near Northwest Expressway and Rockwell Avenue in Oklahoma City. Mark Inman, with CB Richard Ellis Oklahoma, represented LifeChurch.tv in the Midwest City purchase. Inman was also the broker for two of the church’s other Oklahoma City branches.“They were just looking for new locations and this just made the most sense,” Inman said. “Midwest City’s a whole in the market for them.”Louis Almaraz and Michael Almaraz, with Grubb & Ellis Levy Beffort, represented the selling entities, Midland Capital, LLC & CMSM LLC.

The one-story Dillard’s space, built in 1978, was vacated in May 2006. Gruenewald said the church will likely build-out perhaps half of the space then determine to what to do with the remaining space.

The church is also planning an expansion in Tulsa. Gruenewald said church attendance nationwide and through its online ministry is about 22,000 each weekend. Of that number, church attendance in the Oklahoma City metro area is about 15,300 and about 2,700 attend the Tulsa church.Gruenewald said the Tulsa congregation has outgrown the space, which has necessitated plans for a new church in the Tulsa-area.The church recently purchased just over five acres in Bixby for a South Tulsa church that will begin meeting at a school in January until a new church building is completed.

y'know, ts... it's a free country and i think that's great. if lc has added value to your life, then more power to you. it's not as if i ran into you on the street and you told me that you went to lc that i'd bring any of this up.

i think the main thing that sparks me is when metro makes stuff up to defend lc's practices and says arrogant and belittling remarks about other churches who are trying just as hard to make a difference.

-M

What get's me is when a MODERATOR of this board is always trying to start a religious fight, and is perhaps breaking TOS or suggesting me to break TOS. What did I state that was incorrectly true? I've attended the church for almost 10 years and I'm betting if you've even been it was probably once or twice. Don't you think I might know or have experienced alot more about the church over this time frame from versus an outsiders judgement? You deliberately try to spark or ignite debates about LC and you've proven that in numerous threads. Last time I checked mods should be trying to stop conflicts, not start them.

Yes, awhile back I said I've seen Craig's house on videos, I never said I have been to it in person, doesn't mean I haven't driven by it in person though. Just because I choose not to disclose the nearest location to it to you or over the internet makes me dishonest or "making things up" (as you say) by your standards, then so judge me. Funny you talk about being doctrinal and all, I don't know what church you go to but I'm pretty sure you're bible says something about not judging others and removing the plank in your own eye.

LC is not obligated to show you financials or anything so I'm not sure why you think you're holier than thou and think you're entitled to all this private information from another church all the time. Here is a link to LC's 2006 audited financials as well as YTD 2007 financials unaudited yet: Stewardship | Oklahoma City, OK Campus | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/1201/Default.aspx) Last time I checked LC was the only church I know of publicly offering a money back guarantee and willing to refund money. FAQs | Online Giving | Oklahoma City, OK Campus | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/1199/Default.aspx)

Money back guarantee?

What...If you go to hell, you get all your tithing back or something?

Always a jokester eh Oh GAWD.

Maybe somebody can clear this up for me.


The most common view is that gross earnings is the amount of God’s provision, and the tithe should be based on one-tenth of God’s provision. Taxes are generally considered payment for the privileges and services provided by the government. Though scripture doesn’t necessarily use the literal terms "net" or "gross," it is important to note that the spirit in which we give is of greatest value to God.

So they pretty much tell you how much you're supposed to give.

Then they quote scripture...


He tells us in II Corinthians 9 that “each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give; not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

Didn't they compel you to give X amount in the first part of the paragraph, in direct opposition to the scripture they quote?

Always a jokester eh Oh GAWD.

Always painting yourself into the Catch-22 corner eh metro?

Maybe somebody can clear this up for me.



So they pretty much tell you how much you're supposed to give.

Then they quote scripture...



Didn't they compel you to give X amount in the first part of the paragraph, in direct opposition to the scripture they quote?

While you make a good point Oh GAWD, you like mmm pick and choose what you'll quote. The second scripture talks about free will giving, not tithe specifically. It was basically a FAQ to address the concern of should one tithe or give on gross or net income. To break it down into laymans terms, it basically meant each person should decide for themselves in their heart, but to not give reluctantly and give cheerfully and willingly. This was very common in the first century church, but still applies to the modern church.

The GREEK (apodekatoo) and HEBREW (ma'aser) word for tithe literally means "one tenth". Therefore when considering tithing, I give 10% of my paycheck as a tithe, anything above and beyond that is freewill giving or an offering or "sacrifice". The bible references the tithe in over two dozen scriptures.

Paying tithes is both an Old and New Testament concept. Malachi 3:8-12 is the most common reference. The Word speaks of robbing God, and of bringing the whole tithe into the "storehouse" (church where you are fed); and of testing God who promises to rebuke the devourer (Satan) and to pour out blessings. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus reinforced the ten percent tithe when he rebuked the Pharises. They were tithing on garden plants and not showing justice, mercy and faithfulness. He exhorted them to tithe but to also display righteousness in their daily lives. Proverbs 3:8-10 promises health, if we honor the Lord with our first fruits.

But in the olden days, you tithed 10% to the Levites -- the folks who performed both governmental and religious functions. Those Levites would in turn donate 10% of that amount to the church.

Since we pay taxes elsewhere, I don't see any reason why the church should get a 9% windfall since we no longer have Levites to take care of. For that reason, I can only see Biblical justification for a 1% tithe at best.

oh, metro. the whole 'moderator' bit is just too silly. what tos has been broken? go ahead and quote... do you need the link sent to you?

as per groeschel's house you are being dishonest. not because you don't disclose the location, but because you see groeschel walk around a house in a video and cite that as evidence as to where he actually lives. that's like me saying that some newscaster lives in a modest home because i saw him walking around one in a newscast. so you've driven by the house? why would you do that?

"lc is not obligated to show you financials or anything"
this is a pretty dense thing to say. as a religious body, of course it doesn't. that doesn't make them a transparent organization and it goes as proof against the accountability you claim. though i do admit that the statements you linked provide some insight. kudos to lc for doing at least that. however, i think it would be better to show the salaries of at least the senior staff, including groeschel. what's there to hide? besides that, such financials don't give us a picture of what personal expenses the church covers for these people.

"i don't know what church you go to but i'm pretty sure you're bible says something about not judging others and removing the plank in your own eye."
where does the bible say not to judge others? what's the plank in my eye? seriously.

-M

Dangit Midtowner, don't bogart my point. :P

Mid, that is why I provided OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures. Jesus himself addressed it several times, most commonly with the Matthew 23:23 reference I provided above. Here is what Matthew 23:23 says in the NIV edition:

Matthew 23:23 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

As we can see yet again, Jesus clearly specifies one-tenth. He even mentions to have mercy on one another.

The way I see it is if you want to give 1% give one percent (2 Corinthians 9 can clearly justify your claim and if you cheerfully give 1% tithe, then so be it, but as we've established the word tithe literally translates into 10 percent), but I will choose to give 10% and that's my free will. But then again, the world typically doesn't agree with the Bible or says "that doesn't apply today" so I'm not surprised.

mid's right. tithing is an old testament concept. the new testament only calls for believers to give with the proper frame of mind and sacrificially.

the quote metro provided from matthew, while mentioning tithing, is not really about tithing. it's about the pharisees worrying about tithing portions of herbs (weeds essentially) while ignoring more important matters of the law. when jesus says this, the mosaic law was still in effect. scripture indicates that law is no longer in effect.

bottom line is, while scripture encourages christians to give, there is no basis for christians to tithe.

-M

Does Groeschel give 10%?

Actually he started tithing 20% years ago, I think their giving is much higher than that now not including offerings, and most of their income goes to various charities. His wife has a huge heart for serving and giving to others. Her wish every year for Christmas, birthday, etc. is to be able to give more to others.

Too funny.

How much (in actual dollars) is their donation? Or is that top secret? Is it 20% of his total income? How about his investment income? Does he count the housing and car allowances he no doubt receives from the church?

I'll bet he has an extremely curious manner of defining "income."

Well... knowing what he gives in dollars should tell us what his actual income is in the end. So what is it?

I hear that the new tower downtown rumored to be for Devon is actually going to be new offices for the LifeChurch.tv empire. ;)

And they are going to purchase the naming rights for the new arena.

Lifechurch.tv Colosseum.

And they are going to purchase the naming rights for the new arena.

Lifechurch.tv Colosseum.

Sounds like an interesting place.

Will they have fights-n-stuff there?

I heard they were angling to be granted tribal status so that they could open up lifecasino.tv.

And isn't Groeshel in the running to be the next president of ORU?

You mean lifeuniversity.tv.edu, right?

I heard he is starting a couple of new business ventures...Life-Mart.tv and McLifers.tv.

This thread has me laughing out loud. Keep up the good work. Craig does not owe anything on his house and it has been that way before the church got big enough to make him a billionaire. He bought numerous houses in college and rented them out. Paid them off and then sold all of them when he got married to buy their first house. When they started having kids, they sold that house and bought one to fit the family and lived an extremely frugal lifestyle until it was paid off. He is a very generous guy and practices what he preaches about personal finance. Of course, that was all after he made a pact with satan.