View Full Version : What's happening at Sheridian and Hudson?



trison
11-07-2007, 01:33 PM
I noticed that Precor has purchased the old Carpenter Square Building as well as the old parking garage south and now they have purchase the One North Hudson building on the corner. Rumor is that they have given notice to all of the tenants that they need to be out by next summer. Has anyone heard about what they plan to do with these properties.

jbrown84
11-07-2007, 01:40 PM
They better not be tearing them down.

I've heard the name Precor. What is their track record? What kinds of projects have the done in the past?

metro
11-07-2007, 01:56 PM
Yes, I heard this "rumor" yesterday. The One North Hudson building you are referring to is the old Hotel Black. The hot rumor is that Devon is about ready to announce building a new tower and they need these spaces for part of their development.

trison
11-07-2007, 02:04 PM
I can't imagine that the city would let them tear down the old Black Hotel or the parking structure. Both of these buildings are very viable. I wouldn't have a lot of heatburn if they tore down the old Carpenter Square building but the other two could be really neat especially with all of the parking across the street.

jbrown84
11-07-2007, 02:41 PM
With so much surface parking and ugly parking garages and empty lots they BETTER NOT be tearing down these buildings for a new tower.

Haven't we learned our lesson?

trison
11-07-2007, 02:53 PM
I agree, didn't we learn anything from our past. We lost a lot of great old buildings in the late 70's and 80's and we will never get them back. Can you imagine the Biltmore redeveloped. I would hate to see us start that trend back. If they want to put up a new tower then do it in the core to shore area where there is pretty of open space available. That would definitely kick that area off in style. I definitely want to keep Devon in downtown but I don't want to lose more historical structures that can be functional.

Pete
11-07-2007, 03:44 PM
This raises a good question, though... Where would Devon put a new tower?

TStheThird
11-07-2007, 04:13 PM
Could we get some pics of the buildings discussed in this thread?

Pete
11-07-2007, 06:45 PM
I think these are the buildings they are talking about, with Carpenter Square on the right, parking garage center and One Hudson (Hotel Black) on the left.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong: :)

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/precor.jpg

Architect2010
11-07-2007, 09:11 PM
Is it possible that they could build the Devon Tower on the Galleria Parking Garage site??? no the garage itself, but the huge lot just south of it... I don think they should have vuilt that huge lot, they should have just made it was taller.

But anyways, could they do that?

Pete
11-08-2007, 06:20 AM
This same group bought the Carpenter Square Building:


Downtown parking garage in OKC sold to local developer
Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City), May 30, 2007 by Kelley Chambers

A parking garage housed in a 1920s building sold recently and plans are in the works to change the building from parking to a yet undetermined use.

Nicholas J. Preftakes, as Sheridan Redevelopers LLC, purchased the structure at 17 N. Hudson Ave. for $3.25 million from John D. Cheek (Cheek Properties LLC).

Built in 1929, the nine-story garage with more than 96,000 square feet is a poured-in-place-concrete building with a brick exterior and more than 900 parking spaces.

"It's built like a fortress," Preftakes said.

And while Preftakes said he could not disclose plans for the new use because they are not yet definitive, he said the building will soon no longer be a parking garage.

"My intent is to renovate the building for an alternative use and close the parking as soon as possible," he said.

Preftakes, chairman and president of Precor Equity Fund Inc., has also been involved in the renovation of a building at 125 Park Ave. into office condominiums and downtown Oklahoma City's first successful loft project, the Garage Loft Apartments, in an old car dealership at 113 NW 13th St.

The parking structure on N. Hudson Avenue currently offers short- term and long-term parking and is managed by Republic Parking System, a company that also manages all the city-owned parking garages downtown.

John Calhoun, with the Oklahoma City Planning Department, said the building has always been a parking garage, although some tile near the entrance on the lower level indicates that at one time there may have been some light retail in that area.

Pete
11-08-2007, 06:52 AM
I couldn't find anything about One North Hudson selling. No articles and the county database shows that it's had the same owner since 1994.

Here's another photo of that building, with the parking garage and Carpenter Square Building to the right:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2730/R010018176001zA.jpg

metro
11-08-2007, 07:21 AM
I imagine IF Devon ends up building a new tower in that area, it will be on the Galleria's surface parking lots, perhaps they will need the buildings in question for some other use, perhaps the parking garage for extra parking, or maybe they want to build some sort of a campus like Chesapeake only more urban. The garage could easily be turned into lofts and the old hotel black could be used for a hotel, condos, apartments or mixed use development. The Devon tower rumor I put up above was from some pretty solid leads, but I'm not betting on it just yet. I'd love to see their tower their on the Galleria site and add more synergy to the west CBD. This would help flow things south when Core 2 Shore comes along.

jbrown84
11-08-2007, 08:31 AM
I hope that's what they are doing. It makes a lot more sense.

Pete
11-08-2007, 11:16 AM
I can't imagine that anyone in a decision making position in OKC would allow any more downtown buildings to be destroyed. And there are plenty of watchdogs out there, too.

I personally hope that Devon doesn't use the Galleria parking area for a tower. That's the perfect location for a convention hotel -- an office tower can go just about anywhere.

jbrown84
11-08-2007, 12:32 PM
there's room for two towers there, or Devon tower could be combined with hotel/residential.

metro
11-08-2007, 12:36 PM
That would be sweet, to have a mixed use tower like they do in BIG cities. Have retail on the first few floors, then hotel/residential, then have the corporate levels up top.

betts
11-09-2007, 07:20 AM
From the DOK:

Downtown developer purchases entire 100 block of Hudson
By Steve Lackmeyer, Business Writer

Veteran downtown developer Nicholas Preftakes, now owner of the entire 100 block of Hudson Avenue, calmly smiles and deflects any suggestion that his continued acquisitions along Hudson Avenue are any more than a routine investment. But his latest purchase of the 1 North Hudson Building the former Black Hotel has some observers wondering whether the purchases are based on widespread rumors that Devon Energy is contemplating building a new corporate headquarters at Hudson and Sheridan.

"He's probably hearing rumors of potential development across the street, said Brett Hamm, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc. "It might reflect his hope or belief there might some validity behind all that. To date, Devon Energy has not publicly discussed any plans for a new headquarters. The company currently occupies office space in five downtown buildings. Oklahoma City Urban Renewal director JoeVan Bullard, whose agency controls the parking deck, said he has had no formal discussions with potential developers.

Preftakes began buying property across from the parking deck earlier this year. Some properties, like the former Carpenter Square Theater and Dorn's Office Supply, already were empty. Anita Sanders, who renovated 408 W Main into her law offices, moved out when it was sold to Preftakes for $1 million in March. Likewise, all parking contracts were terminated when Preftakes paid $3.25 million in June for the seven-story Cheek garage at 17 N Hudson. Preftakes has confirmed he completed the purchase of the 1 North Hudson Building last week. He declined to disclose the price, and the deed transfer was not available Wednesday at the Oklahoma County assessor's office.

As with his other purchases along Hudson Avenue and Main Street, Preftakes was coy about buying 1 North Hudson, saying it represents continued investment downtown. "It's as simple as one thing leads to another, Preftakes said. "Sometimes people contact me. Preftakes said his immediate plans include some "cleaning up and TLC, but no major changes. He said the tenants are not being asked to leave. "The office building works as an office building, and we will continue to operate it as an office building, Preftakes said. "We won't be moving anyone out tenants like Scotts Office Printing are there for a long time.

Doug Loudenback
11-09-2007, 07:40 AM
Verrrry interesting.

Pete
11-09-2007, 07:58 AM
betts, I merged your post with this other thread so other would be sure to see the pictures and other discussion.


Sounds like this Devon Tower idea is gaining real momentum. However, as stated, I hope they don't plan to using the entire south half of the Galleria parking garage for an office building.

That's the perfect spot for a convention hotel.

metro
11-09-2007, 08:09 AM
How is it a perfect spot if the Cox Center is raise in a few years and a new convention center is built more SE than the current one, then instead of the Galleria site being within 2 blocks of the convention center, it would be 5-6 or so. Just a thought.

okclee
11-09-2007, 08:25 AM
Doesn't the Core to Shore plan show a new convention hotel located along what will be an expanded park / myriad gardens?? I believe that it does.

metro
11-09-2007, 08:29 AM
Yes okclee, but as I mentioned it's going to be further away from the Galleria site than the current one is. So if anything South of the Ford Center, or the UHaul parking lot in Bricktown or where the Cox Center will become the perfect spot for a large convention hotel.

Kerry
11-09-2007, 09:00 AM
I suspect these building could be convert residential property once a large office building is constructed across the street. You can check the Core to Shore plan but wouldn't a building on the Galleria gargae site be in a perfect line with the core shore park and provide an awesome view all the way to the river.

Doug Loudenback
11-09-2007, 09:28 AM
About replacing the Black, the garage, and the smaller buildings for a 40-50 story drop-dead gorgeous Devon skyscraper that could be the new marque signature building for Okc (should such a thing be in the cards), as for me, I'd say go for it!

You know that I'm all for history but the only building involved in this mix which is all that great is the old Black Hotel ... and, while Ok, it was never in the same category as being a "super" old building (such as the Baum was), in my opinion.

jbrown84
11-09-2007, 09:34 AM
The area that is the current galleria "parking deck" is big enough for 3 Oklahoma Towers, so there is certainly room for a Devon tower AND a large hotel.

Metro has a point, and I don't know that it works as a convention hotel, but certainly a large Omni or Hyatt Regency would be great there overlooking the Myriad gardens with a view all the way down to the river.

jbrown84
11-09-2007, 09:36 AM
About replacing the Black, the garage, and the smaller buildings for a 40-50 story drop-dead gorgeous Devon skyscraper that could be the new marque signature building for Okc (should such a thing be in the cards), as for me, I'd say go for it!

But why tear anything down when there's a freaking PARKING DECK across the street with a footprint the size of the Ford Center?

okclee
11-09-2007, 09:42 AM
I don't think anyone will be tearing anything down. I think Jbrown you are right if Devon were to build it will be across the street at the galleria location previous mentioned.

I believe precor is just buying the properties betting that Devon will be across the street.

Doug Loudenback
11-09-2007, 09:47 AM
But why tear anything down when there's a freaking PARKING DECK across the street with a footprint the size of the Ford Center?
A "freaking parking deck?" :) I'd say that it's a pretty nice one!

Kidding aside, I have no clue of the dynamics involved here ... public/private property ... nor do I have I any idea that Devon is/might be/might come to be thinking about the sugar plum that danced in my head ... but while I'd agree that the best of all possible worlds would be to leave the Black alone (I'd have no or little reluctance about the others going) ...

... IF it came down to an either/or choice, I'd opt for the sugar plum.

jbrown84
11-09-2007, 10:38 AM
A "freaking parking deck?" :) I'd say that it's a pretty nice one!

I'm not talking about the new above ground garage, I'm talking about the original Pei-era garage that doesn't go above ground level.


Lose that or lose 4 or 5 of the few remaining pre-Urban Renewal buildings????

stlokc
11-09-2007, 11:08 AM
I hate to throw cold water on all of this, because God knows Oklahoma City would look bigger and more impressive if Devon threw up a splashy new headquarters tower. But I just have to ask: Would that really be "good" for Downtown? How much space in existing, older buildings would Devon be vacating? That is space that would be hard to fill, and what would that do to the already-very-high office vacancy rate? is spreading the existing downtown workforce out over a wider space going to help density?

Again, don't get me wrong, I would love to see a new feature on the skyline. But I would feel much more comfortable if it was a brand-new company relocating from suburbs or out of state, or, conversely, a mixed-use hotel/residential/office tower (15 stories of each) or something like that.

Again, all this is academic until somebody announces something.

Doug Loudenback
11-09-2007, 12:04 PM
I'm not talking about the new above ground garage, I'm talking about the original Pei-era garage that doesn't go above ground level.

Lose that or lose 4 or 5 of the few remaining pre-Urban Renewal buildings????
As stlokc reminded, this is all academic speculation anyway. But ... the parking area I think you are talking about is at the NE corner of Hudson & Sheridan, across the street east of the "Black" ... that's not just a surface lot but has lower levels (at least 1 ... I've never been down there) and the underground parking is interconnected. I've no idea of what would need to be done with regard to the interrelated parking areas, were any building to be built in that space. As for other-than-the-Black buildings which would be involved, I've already said what I think about that. I don't see them as worth keeping if some much better replacement comes along. A vintage parking garage, single-level theater (I don't know its original use), and one or two old (what amounts to) rooming houses (one was sometimes called the Wren Hotel) I don't see as a deal-breaker.

As to your point, stlokc, sure, in the best of all possible worlds, a new company would build ... but since it is widely (if inaccurately) speculated that Devon is looking to build, unless Okc (like Seattle in the Sonics context) has a "White Knight" drop into the downtown market, any new skyscraper in downtown is more likely to be Devon than anyone else, I think. Of course and as you said, this is all pipe dreaming until something actually emerges.

jbrown84
11-09-2007, 12:10 PM
That issue has been discussed at length stlokc. In fact Devon has gone on record saying that that is a major concern they have before building a new tower.

But with Sandridge now occupying the former KMG tower and American Fidelity looking to move downtown, combined with the new synergy that a Devon tower would create, I wouldn't worry about it. Keep in mind the vacant spaces downtown are vacant because they are Class B & C. The spaces Devon would be leaving are Class A and would fill up quickly.

Pete
11-09-2007, 12:29 PM
I believe precor is just buying the properties betting that Devon will be across the street.

Yes, and a wise move. They must believe the Devon Tower thing is more than just a rumor.

My bet is he converts the parking garage into lofts and may scrape the Carpenter Building. Seems like there is a higher and better use for the that property.


BTW, hotels, unlike office towers, tend to have a pretty big footprint. I'm still worried we may be sacrificing a great hotel location when an office building could go anywhere.

Plus, should OKC provide public property to a private corporation to build office space? A hotel is sorely needed, especially one on a large scale. But an office building wouldn't impact our economy so directly.

stlokc
11-09-2007, 12:36 PM
MalibuSooner...In a philosophically pure world, I would share your hesitation to endorse the city giving land to a private company. But in this day and age, that is the kind of thing that gets deals done in struggling urban areas. And I would argue that a full office building would impact the economy a lot more directly than a hotel would...you could have thousands of paying jobs (many of them high-paying) in a downtown office tower. Of course if it is just shifting around workforce that is already downtown...I don't know...but I won't belabor that point anymore. Although I am a little skeptical that the current Devon space would "fill quickly" just because it is Class A, I will prefer to share JBrown's optimism.

jbrown84
11-09-2007, 02:20 PM
No one said the city has to hand over that land--whether it be to Devon or to a hotel developer.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
11-09-2007, 04:38 PM
:bright_id Just a thought (I know nothing about any of this)....But we're going to need a very nice, and very large hotel for visiting NBA teams downtown, right?

BG918
11-11-2007, 08:13 PM
The convention hotel will go at the SE corner of Robinson and the new blvd., according to Core to Shore. It will be connected to a new convention center just to the east with frontage along the new blvd. across from the Ford Center. Mixed-use residential will line Robinson facing the park next to the convention center which could go as far as SW 6th depending on how big it is (some are saying 1+ million SF). Hudson and Sheridan is PERFECT for the new Devon Tower.

BG918
11-11-2007, 08:18 PM
I hate to throw cold water on all of this, because God knows Oklahoma City would look bigger and more impressive if Devon threw up a splashy new headquarters tower. But I just have to ask: Would that really be "good" for Downtown? How much space in existing, older buildings would Devon be vacating? That is space that would be hard to fill, and what would that do to the already-very-high office vacancy rate? is spreading the existing downtown workforce out over a wider space going to help density?

Again, don't get me wrong, I would love to see a new feature on the skyline. But I would feel much more comfortable if it was a brand-new company relocating from suburbs or out of state, or, conversely, a mixed-use hotel/residential/office tower (15 stories of each) or something like that.

Again, all this is academic until somebody announces something.

Devon building a new tower and moving everyone from multiple downtown buildings frees up smaller companies from the suburbs and out-of-state to move downtown. The skyline is already impressive but a new tower would really set it apart. Throw in a new highrise convention hotel and we're on par with some of the biggest cities.

HOT ROD
11-11-2007, 09:25 PM
Malibu, I have to disagree with your claim that a hotel takes up more floorprint than an office tower. Office towers have the largest footprint of any highrise in constuction, this due to maximize sq ft (since you have to put in lots of elevators, residentials dont need as many).

As for the Devon tower, I also think the 'deck' area of the galleria site is preferred, and preferably the SW corner. I'd like to see a new hotel or a mixed use hotel/condo tower on the SE corner; both overlooking the Myriad Gardens and opening downtown up to the west.

I also prefer Devon's tower to be tall, taller than the 600 feet of Tulsa's BOK Tower and more floors than Tulsa's Gold tower; Say 63 stories @ 700 feet (11+ FSR and 1.05M sq ft). I think this total space is about as much as they are occupying in Chase, First National, and Mid America when combined plus gives them room to expand or lease.

These dimensions would give OKC all of the state records (tallest, most floors, largest single tower) and would only be 198 feet taller than Cox. Also, in the location of SW Galleria @ Hudson/Sheridan, the tower would look very impressive from the West without drowning the rest of downtown from other directions (say, the east or North) where it would actually blend in.

Also, as for the vacated Devon space it is all class A (perhaps the First National isnt but I suspect that is where they have their servers, so no need for class A for that). So, you'd figure that 500,000 sq feet of class A space would EASILY be absorbed in downtown OKC; as was said - its the B and especially C space that is hard for downtown to absorb. I suspect American Fidelity would take on most of the class A space (probably moving into Mid America altogether) once Devon vacates, that would leave Chase - who wouldn't want to move into OKC's tallest signature leasible downtown tower (or second if Devon choses not to be owner occupied).

Like I said, I hope this is in the cards and we go tall!!! Hopefully also, there might be some other corporation (home grown or imported) who might also desire a tower downtown [Dell, AT&T, Northrup Grumman???] where we could get another owner occupied or class A leasible tall one or two. That would 'complete' downtown OKC from a CBD prospective and move OKC UP quite a bit in the ranks of big city downtowns, with the entertainment and retail additions making up the rest of the ranks where additions are needed/would be forthcoming.

Imagine a 700 foot Devon tower sparkling reflective glass with simple FAA beacon lights on the top, at the SW corner of Galleria.... Imagine driving in from the West from WRWA and seeing this dominate an already dense/impressive downtown!!!

That would surely improve OKC's world/national image! GO DEVON (use those profits)

russellc
11-15-2007, 12:42 PM
"and would only be 198 feet taller than Cox."
????????????? What Cox?

metro
11-15-2007, 01:07 PM
yeah that part got me too russell? Are they talking the Cox Convention Center? If so that makes no sense at all.

HOT ROD
11-15-2007, 03:05 PM
Sorry, I meant Chase.

hipsterdoofus
11-17-2007, 07:14 AM
I don't care about the other 2 buildings but I wish someone would do something with that area on Main & Hudson....its kind of an eyesore for being "Main" street...lots of empty space in there.

CuatrodeMayo
11-17-2007, 03:20 PM
Malibu, I have to disagree with your claim that a hotel takes up more floorprint than an office tower. Office towers have the largest footprint of any highrise in constuction, this due to maximize sq ft (since you have to put in lots of elevators, residentials dont need as many).

And I need to disaggree with you claim that an office tower has a larger footprint. It is true that the actually TOWER of an office buildings has a larger continous footprint than a hotel, however you neglect to realize that the support functions, meeting rooms, and other spaces make up a spread-out base that has a quite a large footprint.

And hotels need more elevators than residential towers due to large simultaneous movements of people, especially in convention hotels.




I also prefer Devon's tower to be tall, taller than the 600 feet of Tulsa's BOK Tower and more floors than Tulsa's Gold tower; Say 63 stories @ 700 feet (11+ FSR and 1.05M sq ft). I think this total space is about as much as they are occupying in Chase, First National, and Mid America when combined plus gives them room to expand or lease.

It would only need to have 47 stories to reach 700 feet. Modern office towers have 15 feet floor-to-floor.

JOHNINSOKC
11-20-2007, 07:24 PM
As I was driving over the Shields bridge approaching downtown this morning, I was trying to imagine what the skyline would look like with a new Devon tower in the location that we are speculating about, and it occurred to me that it would really open up the west side of downtown for more towers. It wouldn't look odd like the Bank of America tower does in Charlotte because it wouldn't tower over every building immediately surrounding it. Since our downtown area will be expanding, I can see a few high rise condominiums or hotels filling in the space between a new signature office tower and the current skyline. I really hope we hear something about this possible Devon tower very soon. It's like a child having to wait another year for Santa Claus to come.:) Any thoughts??

Pete
11-21-2007, 09:32 AM
A decent sized convention hotel would need every bit of what remains at the Galleria lot. They need large, contiguous spaces that can be broken up into smaller rooms or joined together for big events. And first-class hotels have large, elaborate lobbies that require a large scale.

And although Core to Shore shows a large hotel near the proposed convention center, We'll certainly need more than one anyway.

With all the un- and under-developed properties in the CBD I simply don't see why we need to waste this prime piece or property that was specifically cleared and set aside for uses that would benefit the whole community. We've already wasted most of it due to lack of foresight and merely putting another office building there would not be the highest and best use, especially when you consider it would be the only development to date that would really take advantage of the proximity to the Myriad Gardens (a woefully underutilized asset IMO).

FritterGirl
11-21-2007, 09:49 AM
Yes, but I thought the Core to Shore plan called for the convention hotel / tower (actually two of them) to be south of the Myriad Botanical Gardens, this is assuming they move the convention center south of the current Ford center space.

There's a meeting coming up in another week or two, so we'll get the "final" schematic at that time.

Kerry
11-21-2007, 12:02 PM
Hotel - office tower - residential tower: at this point I don't care any more. Just build something. It isn't like downtown OKC is having to beat developers off with a stick for the past 30 years. I'll take what I can get. I just looked out my window here in Atlanta and I can see no less than 30 high-rise construction cranes from downtown to Buckhead. I know OKC is not Atlanta, but at this point we aren't even Omaha.

HOT ROD
11-21-2007, 04:08 PM
Cuatro.

I stated that office towers are larger in footprint than hotel/residential, this is a fact. You stated that convention centers are larger, which is true - but that isn't the hotel. Office footprints are typically 15,000 sq feet and sometimes get up to 30,000 sq ft; Residentials are usually 10,000 sq feet, hotels somewhere inbetween.

Also, I stated that OKC needs the Devon tower to take the tallest titles away from Tulsa. And I stated that with an FSR of 11 or so, Devon could take both titles (tallest and most number of floors) away with a tower (700 feet, 63 floors, 1.05M+ sq ft)

- that wouldn't be too much taller than Chase (IE it wont dwarf everything else in downtown or look out-of-proportion except on direct approach of the tower itself)
- as was mentioned, the Galleria (SW locn) opens up West Downtown to CBD expansion
- having such a tower would maximize the floorspace for Devon such that they'd probably never need another tower if they chose to be owner occupied

Oh, by the way

Actually, most office towers are roughly 12.5 feet per floor (usually at least 10 FSR). Our Own Chase tower (504 feet, 36 floors) is odd in that it has 14 FSR - which is LARGE and unnecessarily uses Steel.

BOK in Tulsa (the state's tallest) is 12.8 FSR, if Chase had the same it would have 39 floors (or 40 floors with the typical 12.5 FSR). BOK would lose 5 floors (only have 47) if it used our Chase's 14 FSR.

Most OKC towers have really high FSRs. If they used the typical office FSR, OKC would have towers with more floors.

Other examples:

OKC
FNC 13.5 FSR
City Place 13 1/3 FSR
Oklahoma Tower 14 FSR
KMG 13.1 FSR
Valliance 14.59 FSR (a big mofo)
Bank of Oklahoma 19.375 FSR (a huge mofo)
Leadership 14 FSR
Regency 12 FSR
Founders 13.75 FSR
Colcord 10.3 FSR

TUL
Citiplex 10.8 FSR
First Place 12.9 FSR
Mid-Continent 14.25 FSR
BOA 12.875 FSR
320 S Boston 18.18 FSR (big mofo)

Chicago
Chicago Spire (u/c) (2000 feet, 150 floors) 13 1/3 FSR *(will be tallest structure in N/A and 2nd tallest in world [after Burg Dubai] and tallest residential in world)
Sears (1454 feet, 108 floors; if antenna included would be 1780 feet) 13.4 FSR *tallest tower in N/A
Trump International Hotel and Tower (1362 feet, 96 floors) 14 FSR
Waldorf=Astoria (1265 feet, 107 floors) 11.8 FSR
AAON (1136 feet, 83 floors) 13.6 FSR
John Hancock 'Big John' (1127 feet, 100 floors; if antenna included would be 1300 feet) 11.3 FSR

Los Angeles
Library Square (1018 feet, 73 floors) 13.9 FSR
AON (858 ft 62 floors) 13.8 FSR

Houston
Chase (1,002 ft, 75 floors) 13.36 FSR
Wells Fargo (992 ft, 71 floors) 13.97 FSR
Williams (901 ft, 64 floors) 14 FSR *tallest suburban tower in the world


Seattle
Columbia Center (936 feet, 76 floors) 12.32
WAMU (772 feet, 55 floors) 14 FSR
2 Union Sq 13.2 FSR

Dallas
BOA Plaza (921 feet, 72 floors) 12.79 FSR
Renaissance [JR EWING building] (886 feet, 56 floors) 15.8 FSR

CuatrodeMayo
11-21-2007, 11:13 PM
Even if it wasn't a convention hotel, the footprint of the ground floor of a large hotel is as large or larger than the footprint of an office tower.

Your data is impressive. And it proves my point. If you look at the date these tower were built, the newest towers have the largest FSR and the older buildings have the smallest. A MODERN office tower will have about 15 ft FSR.

I am participating in the design of a building containing offices, condos, and a 600 room hotel. I do this every day of my life. I know.

HOT ROD
11-22-2007, 03:30 PM
Actually its the other way around Cuatrode; older towers have higher FSRs than newer ones. It's the new ones which are mostly around 12 FSR or so.

15 FSR is HUGE (Chase is 14 and it's huge). I'd think they would want to squeeze in more floors for more space then build an ornimental edifice.

Here is an example of how I dispute your claim (about hotel space). Let's say the average office skyscraper of any signature height has a footprint of 17,000 square feet (for prospective - I believe Chase footprint is 15,000 sq ft per floor whereas BOK in Tulsa is 20,000, bottom third of Sears is over 50,000 sq ft per floor).

Now, let's assume the average hotel room to be 300 square feet (pretty good size room 15X20). In this simple example, excluding the elevator space and other closet/maid space; if you do a simple division - you'd get 56 rooms per floor. Name me ONE highrise hotel in Oklahoma or even in TX that has 56 rooms per floor. I can't think of any other than perhaps Adams Mark in downtown dallas, and it is a huge anomoly.

Also take note, buildings with high FSR's tend to be institutional in nature. That said, BankOklahoma in downtown's 19 FSR is CRAZY!!!

Im not debating whether you do this for a living, perhaps it is something you might not considered. Perhaps also you may not have considered that I might do urban planning as a living too.??

I do agree that highrise hotels do have bottom level floors which often have a larger footprint than an office tower minus podium, but my point is these type of hotels are not the norm and certainly we might never see this type in Oklahoma (but I dont want to be a naysayer - heck, build it).

brianinok
11-22-2007, 08:22 PM
Hotels are going to have a larger footprint. A large convention hotel might have 100,000 sq ft of meeting space, most often on one floor. Plus, figure a huge lobby, restaurants, retail, hotel offices, and back-of-the-house. Even if you put all of that on 3 floors (which would be a lot of floors to spread that out between), you are probably looking at minimum 50,000 sq ft on each of those floors. The hotel room floors above this will of course be smaller, but the first couple floors of a large convention hotel are quite large.

Kerry
11-22-2007, 09:11 PM
Just for fun I looked on Google Earth to get an idea of footprint sizes. The convention center Marriott in downtown Tampa has a foot print about 3 times larger then the office building I worked in 3 blocks away. The downtown Tampa Hyatt was also about 3 times larger than my office building.

SunTrust Financial Centre, Tampa (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=suntrustfinancialcentre-tampa-fl-usa)
Tampa Marriott Waterside, Tampa (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=tampamarriottwaterside-tampa-fl-usa)

CuatrodeMayo
11-23-2007, 04:39 AM
Actually its the other way around Cuatrode; older towers have higher FSRs than newer ones. It's the new ones which are mostly around 12 FSR or so.

Do yourself a favor and add a date to each building in OKC and compare. modern mechanical systems are larger and more complex and require larger intersitial space.

FNC 13.5 FSR (1931)
City Place 13 1/3 FSR (1931)
Oklahoma Tower 14 FSR (1982)
KMG 13.1 FSR (1973)
Valliance 14.59 FSR (a big mofo) (1984)
Bank of Oklahoma 19.375 FSR (a huge mofo) (1972)
Leadership 14 FSR (1984)
Regency 12 FSR (1966)
Founders 13.75 FSR (1963)
Colcord 10.3 FSR (1909)

And a few more which you cleverly left out:

Chase 13.8 (1971)
Mid-America Tower 13.7 (1980)
Union Plaza 14 (1982)
The Classen 11.9 (1967)
Dowell Center 11.1 (1927)





Here is an example of how I dispute your claim (about hotel space). Let's say the average office skyscraper of any signature height has a footprint of 17,000 square feet (for prospective - I believe Chase footprint is 15,000 sq ft per floor whereas BOK in Tulsa is 20,000, bottom third of Sears is over 50,000 sq ft per floor).

Now, let's assume the average hotel room to be 300 square feet (pretty good size room 15X20). In this simple example, excluding the elevator space and other closet/maid space; if you do a simple division - you'd get 56 rooms per floor. Name me ONE highrise hotel in Oklahoma or even in TX that has 56 rooms per floor. I can't think of any other than perhaps Adams Mark in downtown dallas, and it is a huge anomoly.

I do agree that highrise hotels do have bottom level floors which often have a larger footprint than an office tower minus podium, but my point is these type of hotels are not the norm and certainly we might never see this type in Oklahoma (but I dont want to be a naysayer - heck, build it).

They are not the norm? Look up aerial photography of the two fairly recent downtown OKC hotels, the Renaissance and the Sheraton. You will notice that, in fact, they both have a tower AND a podium. And while you are at it, notice that with the exception of Leadership Square, the footprints of those two hotels are equal to or larger than the footprints of the office towers in the CBD.