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metro
10-31-2007, 07:52 AM
After rain, underground surprises, developers set city sights even higher

By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

Ron Bradshaw, Anthony McDermid, Grant Humphreys and Bill Canfield have all faced a worst-case scenario of record rain, underground surprises and general bad luck while trying to complete their respective downtown housing projects.

But instead of complaining, each Oklahoma City developer is preparing to move forward with even more housing projects.

"The record rainfall has had more effect than just on the project,” said Bradshaw, who was originally counting on an early summer completion for street improvements along NE 3 and NE 2 for his Maywood developments. "We've had a lot of infrastructure, street work, and it is affecting projects all over the city and, when it ended, everybody was wanting the contractor's attention.”

Bradshaw and McDermid are partners in the Maywood project. McDermid, who is doing a separate development with the nearby Central Avenue Villas, met some of the worst delays of the various projects when the rain and a surprise underground utility were followed up by the bankruptcy of a geo-thermal subcontractor.

"We faced one thing after another,” McDermid said. "Weeks turned into months, and months turned into six months.”

Those obstacles have since been overcome, McDermid said, and construction is again moving forward on the Central Avenue Villas.

McDermid and Bradshaw are moving forward with a second phase of construction on the Brownstones at Maywood Park, while Bradshaw separately is moving ahead with a second phase of the lower priced Lofts at Maywood Park.

The lofts project happens to be the only downtown housing development that has yet to advance from simple dirt work.

But with 44 percent of the units already reserved with a $1,000 deposit, and all that with no marketing, Bradshaw decided not to wait on a second phase.

"It's better than what we thought we would see,” he said. "At this price point, people were able to make a decision based on that and the rendering, versus with a $750,000 brownstone, they want to be able to walk into the home and see it.”

Kitchen cabinetry and inside finishes, meanwhile, are under way on the brownstones. The first two are expected to go to closing on Thursday, with occupancy sometime next month.

Humphreys estimates rain in May and June alone cost his Block 42 project a 41-day delay. He also had to pay $80,000 to move a utility line so that construction wouldn't be further delayed.

Residents will be moving into Block 42 starting in December, with 28 units to be filled by late January.

"I've been very thankful and impressed by the strength of the market,” Humphreys said. "In the beginning we had no track to look at; we had a new sales concept in an unproven market. We were optimistic, but also conservative. The response of the market has exceeded our expectation and it gives us a lot of encouragement and faith in the future of downtown housing.”

Like Bradshaw, Humphreys is looking ahead to at least two more downtown housing projects.

Plans are being finalized for the Flatiron Lofts at NE 5 and Harrison, where a flat iron-shaped, boarded-up building will be renovated and expanded into 37 apartments and 30,000 square feet.

Humphreys expects construction to start by spring. At the same time, he is in talks with the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority about proposing another housing development at NW 4 and Shartel.

Humphreys said the job of developing housing is easier now, with bankers willing to back such projects and developers having a better grasp of what the public wants.

"We see that there is a real appreciation for quality development and quality design, and people are willing to look at sales price as a consideration,” he said. "But they are willing to take less space so long as the quality is there and they can really have a nice standard of living within an urban environment.”

Canfield also has faced some of the toughest challenges of record rain and unexpected underground utilities.

Over the past couple weeks, Canfield has celebrated seeing framing finally under way on the first 32 units of the 157-townhome development. Foundation work, meanwhile, has begun on another 32 units.

Canfield said he's used to people asking about the timing of construction — and whether all the dirt moved around on the hill where the development is located will result in the disappearance of one of downtown's highest points.

"I guarantee it will look like a hill when we're done. The streets will be quite steep — just within allowable guidelines.”

Canfield also cautions the development won't be finished overnight.

"This is a long-term project — 157 units total — and it will take several years to build them all,” he said.

After opening one of the most elaborate sales offices of any of the downtown housing projects, Canfield decided to close the operation earlier this year and delay active sales until the first units are finished by next summer.

"The plan is to finish these units and let people see what we really have,” he said. "These will be special units that are unlike anything people have ever seen here before.”

Sizes of the town homes at The Hill range from 1,660 to 3,600 square feet, making them among the largest of the current downtown housing developments.

"They really are a home compared to what people are used to finding in the suburbs,” Canfield said. "We're looking at a unique part of the market — professionals who will take this city to the next level.”

Canfield also isn't letting delays discourage him from moving forward with plans for future phases that will complete the 157 town homes at The Hill.

Curiously, it's Randy Hogan who encountered no significant underground surprise and has all 30 units pre-sold, who has yet to commit to any new downtown housing projects.

"We're going to keep our eyes open,” he said. "It would have to be just the right project. I keep kicking out the question of where — it would have to be exactly right.”

http://static.newsok.biz/article/3160463/block_42.jpg_10-31-2007_CP55U7R.jpg
Construction is nearing completion at the Block 42 condominiums, which loom over NE 4 just west of the Centennial Expressway. To the east one can see the Presbyterian Health Foundation Research Park, which is in walking distance from the new residences. By Paul B. Southerland, The Oklahoman



Downtown Housing
Central Avenue Villas
•Address: NE 4 and Central Avenue



•Lead developer: Anthony

McDermid

•Units: 30

•Cost: $5 million

•Status: Work is complete on the underground garage, floors will begin going up over the next few weeks.


Block 42:
•Address: NE 4 and Central Avenue.
•Lead developer: Grant Hum-

phreys.

•Units: 42

•Cost: $13.5 million

•Status: First units scheduled for occupancy in December.


Flat Iron Lofts
•Address: NE 5 and Harrison Avenue.
•Lead developer: Grant Humphreys

•Units: 37

•Cost: Not available

•Status: Design work nearing completion, construction expected to start by spring.


Brownstones at Maywood Park
•Address: NE 3 and Oklahoma
•Lead developer: Ron Bradshaw

•Phase I:

•Units: 15

•Cost: $7.8 million

•Status: Units ready for interior finish, sales, late 2007.

•Phase II:

•Units: 5

•Cost: $2.7 million

•Status: Walls going up this week. A buyer is already attached to one unit immediately east of a park being built at NE 3 and Oklahoma Avenue. The building will include a coffee shop on the first floor.


Lofts at Maywood Park
•Address: NE 2 and Oklahoma Avenue
•Lead developer: Ron Bradshaw

•Phase I:

•Units: 55

•Cost: $13 million

•Retail: 30,000 square feet

•Status: Dirt work under way, foundation work starting within 60 days.

•Phase II:

•Units: 36

•Cost: $7 million

•Status: Construction expected to start by mid-2008.


The Centennial:
•Address: Lower Bricktown
•Lead developer: Randy Hogan

•Units: 30

•Cost: $15.2 million (including two floors of retail).

•Status: The first downtown development to sell out is expected to be ready for occupancy later this year.


The Hill:
•Address: NE 2 and Stiles.
•Lead developer: Bill Canfield

•Units: 157 (multiple phases)

•Cost: Not released

•Status: Framing is under way on 32 units; foundation work is started on another 32 units.

John
10-31-2007, 08:12 AM
Way to go, Canfield.

Several years? Impressive! :rolleyes:

Pete
10-31-2007, 08:26 AM
It sounds like Canfield is having a very tough time pre-selling his development, which is no surprise given the cost. It also can't help that they have been so incredibly slow in their building process. They are way behind everyone else, and they all largely started after he did.

Anyway, it's great to see we'll finally see some life those areas. And as mentioned, the success of these projects really paves the way for future developments.

Hopefully interest rates will come down a bit and the credit mark will firm up a bit to keep things rolling down there.

Pete
10-31-2007, 08:29 AM
http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2007/10/31/19/Img/Pc0190900.jpg

http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2007/10/31/24/Img/Pc0240500.jpg

metro
10-31-2007, 08:49 AM
I wish Steve could have mentioned that Canfield was selected by OCURA so the public would be more aware of them. Great article and pics though Steve. I'm not surprised one bit Canfield is running the slowest, OCURA's projects usually do because they pick the worst proposal for their sites. Look at the old Mercy Site, I bet you Marva Ellard's group would have broke ground already, while the "good old boys" chosen will probably sit on it for a year or so.

John
10-31-2007, 09:39 AM
I wish Steve could have mentioned that Canfield was selected by OCURA so the public would be more aware of them. Great article and pics though Steve. I'm not surprised one bit Canfield is running the slowest, OCURA's projects usually do because they pick the worst proposal for their sites. Look at the old Mercy Site, I bet you Marva Ellard's group would have broke ground already, while the "good old boys" chosen will probably sit on it for a year or so.

Hasn't every lackluster development stalled for a long period of time because of an 'underground utility' or something similar?

Notice how Grant Humphreys ran into the same problem, but kept right along. I think the other developers should take some lessons from him.

Karried
10-31-2007, 11:10 AM
But instead of complaining, each Oklahoma City developer is preparing to move forward with even more housing projects.

Frankly, it's a little bit surprising that they are still enthusiast about building ... most of the rest of the country is slowing wayyyy down on building projects.

Housing Crash Continues, Bubble Pops (http://patrick.net/housing/crash.html)

Pete
10-31-2007, 11:24 AM
"They really are a home compared to what people are used to finding in the suburbs,” Canfield said.

I still can't believe OCURA selected this project over McDermid & Co.

I really don't think trying to market "suburban" type homes in an urban setting -- then trying to charge 3 times the going rate for a comparable free-standing house that is only a 15 minute drive away -- is a recipe for success.

If there was strong demand they would be much more aggressive in their construction. And they've closed their sales office and ceased active sales?? Not a good sign.

okclee
10-31-2007, 11:42 AM
How about the quotes from Randy Hogan??


Curiously, it's Randy Hogan who encountered no significant underground surprise and has all 30 units pre-sold, who has yet to commit to any new downtown housing projects.

"We're going to keep our eyes open,” he said. "It would have to be just the right project. I keep kicking out the question of where — it would have to be exactly right.”

(Translation : I am waiting for the city and taxpayers to give me more land for free or next to nothing. Then I can build another cheap looking project and sell it for huge profits. I love being me. )

metro
10-31-2007, 12:30 PM
I sure hope Canfield and Hogan don't build anything else in Oklahoma period. They have proven they are out to make a quick buck and nothing else, without regard to the long term best interests of the community. Boot Hogan back to Australia and Canfield back east.

fsusurfer
10-31-2007, 12:37 PM
The price of the housing market in Downtown OKC was one of the reasons I relocated back to Florida.

Midtowner
10-31-2007, 12:42 PM
The price of the housing market in Downtown OKC was one of the reasons I relocated back to Florida.

It's unreal, isn't it?

I imagine that the cost of housing downtown will lighten up after these initial units sell. I think a lot of it is going to be corporate housing -- the market for that should be relatively limited.

Prices will have to slip back towards sanity over the next 5 years or so.

fsusurfer
10-31-2007, 12:50 PM
Here was my thinking:

I enjoyed the lifestlye of living/renting in downtown OKC in my mid-20s. Entering my late 20's I was looking to buy a place and didn't want to move the the suburbs of Oklahoma City, that just wasnt for me. Could I have afforded a place in downtown OKC I would have stayed. However, making below national average salary in my field (IT) I wasn't able to afford 300,000+ place and I didn't want to pay 220-250 for a tiny place downtown that probably dosent hold much re-sale value. The prospect of relocating back to Florida, making 20% more AND not having a state income tax was to much to pass up. Im currently living with my parents and saving to purchase a place. Since I moved back to Florida 8 months ago, the Florida housing market has decreased in price drastically and looks to keep doing so for AT LEAST the next year and builders are out of work all over, while I see the price in downtown OKC is still the same. Not to my suprise, I see sales and construction are still lagging in downtown OKC as they were before I left. The econmoy looks to be headed for a recession, and this may become a major problem for downtown housing areas if costs arn't addressed

Karried
10-31-2007, 01:37 PM
fsusurfer, I remember a few months back talking about your move to Florida ... the market there did what I ( and many economists) was thinking it would, didn't it?

I'm glad you waited to buy.

I think the downtown OKC housing market will be in for a wake up call pretty soon.

The builders just need to keep salaries, rents and market values aligned when setting the prices.. and not try to be too greedy.

fsusurfer
10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
fsusurfer, I remember a few months back talking about your move to Florida ... the market there did what I ( and many economists) was thinking it would, didn't it?

I'm glad you waited to buy.

I think the downtown OKC housing market will be in for a wake up call pretty soon.

The builders just need to keep salaries, rents and market values aligned when setting the prices.. and not try to be too greedy.

Oh man, the market here is has fallen about 7-10% since I moved in early summer and is going to coninue falling for a while. I am friends with a pretty prominent builder and he said he expects to be struggling until at least 2009. One of my best friends mothers is a local relator and after being one of the most successful realtors in Destin 3 years ago, she is basically out of a job. If your looking to buy right now and dont have to worry about selling, you basically have your choice. Every where you look you can find places for sale. You can even find some properties where owners have just walked away. I'm probably going to hold out another 8-10 months depending on how the economy does.

Pete
10-31-2007, 03:32 PM
I think you are going to find much better values in Midtown, especially as a bunch of these Banta properties start to come on-line.

Personally, I'd probably rather live there anyway as you could still walk to everything downtown but also have a true neighborhood and lots of interesting restaurants and bars.

And houses in Mesta Park are still pretty darn reasonable. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would pay $700K for a townhouse in OKC (unless it had some sort of spectacular skyline view and a nice outdoor space from which to enjoy it).

Oh GAWD the Smell!
10-31-2007, 03:47 PM
For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would pay $700K for a townhouse in OKC (unless it had some sort of spectacular skyline view and a nice outdoor space from which to enjoy it).

It better come with a free Ferrari, a hot French maid, and a lifetime supply of Jelly Bellies for that kind of cabbage.

ksearls
10-31-2007, 04:04 PM
Boot Hogan back to Australia

What on earth are you talking about?

CuatrodeMayo
10-31-2007, 04:05 PM
Let's keep Mesta Park, Jefferson Park, and other older neighborhoods secret for now. I don't want to move home to OKC in 5 years and not be able to find a nice historic fix-up.

Got it?

:)

Midtowner
10-31-2007, 06:31 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

Well, like a long time ago, Australia was like a prison colony, so maybe he thinks that like Hogan belongs in prison???

Probably not, but it's a fun thought.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
10-31-2007, 09:48 PM
Well, like a long time ago, Australia was like a prison colony, so maybe he thinks that like Hogan belongs in prison???

Probably not, but it's a fun thought.

Paul Hogan was Australian, right? And he played a character based on a guy that was kind of criminal...Got shot up by the popo anyway.

Ben Hogan be a 'merkin though.

/lost too

metro
11-01-2007, 07:35 AM
Here was my thinking:

I enjoyed the lifestlye of living/renting in downtown OKC in my mid-20s. Entering my late 20's I was looking to buy a place and didn't want to move the the suburbs of Oklahoma City, that just wasnt for me. Could I have afforded a place in downtown OKC I would have stayed. However, making below national average salary in my field (IT) I wasn't able to afford 300,000+ place and I didn't want to pay 220-250 for a tiny place downtown that probably dosent hold much re-sale value. The prospect of relocating back to Florida, making 20% more AND not having a state income tax was to much to pass up. Im currently living with my parents and saving to purchase a place. Since I moved back to Florida 8 months ago, the Florida housing market has decreased in price drastically and looks to keep doing so for AT LEAST the next year and builders are out of work all over, while I see the price in downtown OKC is still the same. Not to my suprise, I see sales and construction are still lagging in downtown OKC as they were before I left. The econmoy looks to be headed for a recession, and this may become a major problem for downtown housing areas if costs arn't addressed

Why didn't you buy a Harvey Loft? They started at around 120K, Central Ave. Villas had some start around 150K, The Classen (when they were selling units) started at 140K, Classen Glen, Sycamore Square, and other older developments all have units well under 100K. There is still affordable ownership housing available downtown, you just have to look for it. The mass produced stuff you'll have to wait another year for when Maywood Lofts open up at around 110K and up.

ksearls
11-01-2007, 07:48 AM
And then there's Hulk HOGAN who also has long hair, but he too is American.

Midtowner
11-01-2007, 07:51 AM
Those spaces were $100-$150/sq. ft.!

That is not an acceptable price for real estate in Oklahoma City. Perhaps somewhere on one of the coasts, but certainly not here. I could accept downtown housing being maybe 50% higher per square foot at the most. Being exactly double the average market price for a home though? Not really acceptable in my book -- and those prices of course don't include maintenance fees and parking (which is $125/month/space in the case of Harvey, and your parking is about 1 1/2 blocks away).

metro
11-01-2007, 08:00 AM
$100 a sq. ft is 50% above average pp sqft in OKC. I believe average is at $77. At Harvey Lofts? Are you sure? They have a fairly large (and I thought included in HOA dues) parking lot immediately on the south side of their building. See this rendering: Exterior Renderings (http://www.harveyloftsokc.com/exteriorrenderings.html) In fact, their HOA fees seem reasonable with the highest unit being $157 a month and the lowest at $73 a month: http://www.harveyloftsokc.com/HLdues.pdf

I'm not sure what Sycamore Square charges for parking, but it seems to me they have plenty of it and is probably covered with HOA dues. I know they have some carports (maybe you can clarify Mid). I'm also willing to bet they're still selling under 100 sq ft. Classen Glen is way less than $100 sq. ft and you get one long underground covered parking space (holds 2 average cars or one large truck or SUV) with your HOA dues. Central Ave. Villas parking is going to be underground as well and be covered with HOA dues. Either way, there IS affordable housing in downtown OKC available. It may not be all new construction ( I provided 2 new and 2 old examples), or not enough to supply the demand, my point is it is available, you might have to look harder for it.

Midtowner
11-01-2007, 08:14 AM
I keep mixing up Harvey Lofts with Harvey Tower. You're right.

As far as Sycamore, I live on the South side in the rentals. Parking is free.

Misty
11-01-2007, 08:24 AM
I like Sycamore Square, it's the best bargain downtown if you're looking to rent. Plus they have trees, grass and birds.

fsusurfer
11-01-2007, 08:57 AM
Why didn't you buy a Harvey Loft? They started at around 120K, Central Ave. Villas had some start around 150K, The Classen (when they were selling units) started at 140K, Classen Glen, Sycamore Square, and other older developments all have units well under 100K. There is still affordable ownership housing available downtown, you just have to look for it. The mass produced stuff you'll have to wait another year for when Maywood Lofts open up at around 110K and up.

I couldnt see purchasing a place barley 2 times the size of a hotel room to spend the next 4+ years of my life in. Not to mention, who knows what the resale value and demand on a place that small will be. Looking at the central av. villas sales, it looks like they havent sold any more units than they did when i lived in OKC 8 months ago. As far as the Classen, I dont really consider that living downtown, its not like I'd be walking around that area after dark. And, I thought they started out more around 180k. I lived in a 1000sq foot apt, with a garage at deep deuce for under 900 a month. I needed a 2 bedroom place and paying 220k+ with the money I was making would have been pushing it. Now, in Florida, if I wanted i could go buy a decent townhouse right across the street from the beach for 250k.

metro
11-01-2007, 10:10 AM
It sounds to me you're wanting a suburban house in an urban setting. The Hill would be a perfect development for you if it were more affordable. The fact is new urban construction costs several times more than stand alone residential in the suburbs. When you build up, costs go up significantly. With concrete and steel at all time highs thanks to the over inflated housing market, China, and Katrina, the costs have to get passed along to the buyer. Part of urban living, is living a more practical, "more what you need, less what you want" type lifestyle. I'd love a 3000 sq. ft urban penthouse, but I'm going to pay $700K+ for it. Sure I can get a 3000 sq. ft house in the burbs for $200K in OKC. Look at NYC, SF and all the big urban cities, most people live in under 1000 sq. ft. OKC shouldn't be much different in the urban setting, that's just the nature of the beast. You're paying for the type of construction. A basic wood frame is MUCH cheaper to build than an urban multistory concrete and steel structure, even in Florida.

Karried
11-01-2007, 10:21 AM
A basic wood frame is MUCH cheaper to build than an urban multistory concrete and steel structure.

Not necessarily. A lot depends on the value and scarcity of the land the properties sit upon. In dense areas ie New York, San Francisco where land is so valuable, it makes sense for builders to build up..... to take advantage of free air space and get more bang for their buck.

Plus, it's my understanding that installing separate systems, ie heating, cooling, plumbing and electrical on separate housing units is more cost prohibitive than tying them all together in the same building.

If you try to build the same occupancy single story homes compared to a multi-unit building, you might be surprised at the pricing. In other words a housing development ( streets, utilities, easements etc) that houses 40 families compared to a steel building that houses 40 families might not be all that MUCH cheaper to build.

fsusurfer
11-01-2007, 10:41 AM
It sounds to me you're wanting a suburban house in an urban setting. The Hill would be a perfect development for you if it were more affordable. The fact is new urban construction costs several times more than stand alone residential in the suburbs. When you build up, costs go up significantly. With concrete and steel at all time highs thanks to the over inflated housing market, China, and Katrina, the costs have to get passed along to the buyer. Part of urban living, is living a more practical, "more what you need, less what you want" type lifestyle. I'd love a 3000 sq. ft urban penthouse, but I'm going to pay $700K+ for it. Sure I can get a 3000 sq. ft house in the burbs for $200K in OKC. Look at NYC, SF and all the big urban cities, most people live in under 1000 sq. ft. OKC shouldn't be much different in the urban setting, that's just the nature of the beast. You're paying for the type of construction. A basic wood frame is MUCH cheaper to build than an urban multistory concrete and steel structure, even in Florida.

If salaries in OKC were consument with salaries in NY, SF or even Dallas, I wouldnt have had a problem paying 250k-300k+ for a 1000 sq foot apartment. And of course its cheaper to build a wood frame house in Florida, however the house isnt what your really paying for when you buy the property, its the land. When my parents bought their house, they got it for 120k in the early 90s. Nice little 4 bedroom house. When they had it appraised last year, it was appraised at 350k (dont think itd get that much because of the current housing market, but still) because of the land it sits on, not the house itself.

metro
11-01-2007, 10:54 AM
Here's an affordable urban house:

http://www.treehugger.com/distopic1.jpg

Midtowner
11-01-2007, 10:55 AM
I like Sycamore Square, it's the best bargain downtown if you're looking to rent. Plus they have trees, grass and birds.

And lots of stray cats. There's one who actually goes door to door yowling for food.

BDP
11-01-2007, 01:42 PM
Why wouldn't these places go for 50-100% more than the Oklahoma City average? Let's face it there are A LOT of homes in OKC that drag the average PPSF WAY down. I don't really get the comparison, either. Are these homes average? Location and amenities are better than most and there just aren’t that many of them. I have been in many homes that cost $100 a foot in OKC that are no where near as nice as some of these places will be.

And of course, they're going to cost more per square foot than an Edmond or Norman home. Those places are home farms, where mcmansions grow like weeds. It’s a simple question of inventory. There's just not that much downtown and much what is there now doesn't have a lot of the newest and latest frills that people want today.

This is really why places like Crown Heights, Edgemere Park, Heritage Hills, and parts of Mesta get $200-$250 a square foot for the updated properties with quick turnarounds, even when you can walk four blocks and get something for less than $100. The inventory doesn't meet the demand for quality historic homes in the city center and they, obviously, aren't building any new historic homes. Now you have some brand new homes in the city center, which hasn't happened in years really, and even when all is said and done it's a small dot on the housing market and will still be an exclusive market. People who really want to live in a new home downtown are going to pay $100 per foot easy, and, there doesn't have to be much of a demand to fill what's coming online, really.

And these prices aren't that far out of line with median incomes, considering the very small inventory that will exist. Coastal communities have median incomes up to 3 times as much as Oklahoma's, but the median amount people are mortgaging to afford housing with a lot less square footage is four times as much as in Oklahoma in some places. And you have to remember that these are median figures, not averages.

Oklahoma is filled to the rim with affordable housing, both compared to median prices in other markets and how much income is spent on housing. The fact that we're getting any affordable housing downtown is pretty surprising at this point and is a credit to some of the developers who realize that a vibrant community needs income diversity. But really when you look at the inventory of quality housing in the city center, I would be shocked to see any of it come in anywhere near the average for the whole city. I would expect it to be in line with the housing prices for quality homes in the core and actually get a premium due to its true downtown location. That puts it starting at $100 a foot at the low end and going up for the best places with the best amenities, views, and locations.

Like anyone else, I would love to see 3000 square foot homes with skyline views within walking distance of the CBD and entertainment districts for less than $100 a foot, but I can't imagine that being a reality, unless the market really tanks. Hopefully, OKC’s housing market and especially downtown’s market never gets that weak, as that would mean we have bigger problems. All that being said, I think you will see some of these places come down, but they hopefully won’t sniff the city average.

fsusurfer
11-01-2007, 02:09 PM
Why wouldn't these places go for 50-100% more than the Oklahoma City average? Let's face it there are A LOT of homes in OKC that drag the average PPSF WAY down. I don't really get the comparison, either. Are these homes average? Location and amenities are better than most and there just aren’t that many of them. I have been in many homes that cost $100 a foot in OKC that are no where near as nice as some of these places will be.

And of course, they're going to cost more per square foot than an Edmond or Norman home. Those places are home farms, where mcmansions grow like weeds. It’s a simple question of inventory. There's just not that much downtown and much what is there now doesn't have a lot of the newest and latest frills that people want today.

This is really why places like Crown Heights, Edgemere Park, Heritage Hills, and parts of Mesta get $200-$250 a square foot for the updated properties with quick turnarounds, even when you can walk four blocks and get something for less than $100. The inventory doesn't meet the demand for quality historic homes in the city center and they, obviously, aren't building any new historic homes. Now you have some brand new homes in the city center, which hasn't happened in years really, and even when all is said and done it's a small dot on the housing market and will still be an exclusive market. People who really want to live in a new home downtown are going to pay $100 per foot easy, and, there doesn't have to be much of a demand to fill what's coming online, really.

And these prices aren't that far out of line with median incomes, considering the very small inventory that will exist. Coastal communities have median incomes up to 3 times as much as Oklahoma's, but the median amount people are mortgaging to afford housing with a lot less square footage is four times as much as in Oklahoma in some places. And you have to remember that these are median figures, not averages.

Oklahoma is filled to the rim with affordable housing, both compared to median prices in other markets and how much income is spent on housing. The fact that we're getting any affordable housing downtown is pretty surprising at this point and is a credit to some of the developers who realize that a vibrant community needs income diversity. But really when you look at the inventory of quality housing in the city center, I would be shocked to see any of it come in anywhere near the average for the whole city. I would expect it to be in line with the housing prices for quality homes in the core and actually get a premium due to its true downtown location. That puts it starting at $100 a foot at the low end and going up for the best places with the best amenities, views, and locations.

Like anyone else, I would love to see 3000 square foot homes with skyline views within walking distance of the CBD and entertainment districts for less than $100 a foot, but I can't imagine that being a reality, unless the market really tanks. Hopefully, OKC’s housing market and especially downtown’s market never gets that weak, as that would mean we have bigger problems. All that being said, I think you will see some of these places come down, but they hopefully won’t sniff the city average.

It looks to me, from what I've read, with the slow development and the demand, at the prices they want downtown, sales are not going very well and Im not suprised. ONLY 44% has sold? Only a 1000$ down-payment? Lets hope they have at least had their loans approved.. And whats going on with Central Av. Vilas, they have only sold FOUR units? Thats about 10% of their units. That site has been up a year. Maybe its just not updated? That's not very good with the problems the economy is facing on the horizon. Heck, we just had a rate cut yesterday, and in the fed's statment they are already hinting that if inflation and the price of oil continue to skyrocket (which there is no reason to believe both wont) they might start RAISING rates. That dosent bode well for any housing community, in the burb's or downtown. I do think your right about the prices coming down, and if not your going to see in downtown OKC what you see in just about any other part of the country right now, for-sale signs up and down the road. And even then, lets hope they at least complete construction on the places and dont just leave a pile of dirt where they began and then stopped because they were worried sales wouldnt meet their expectations.

jbrown84
11-01-2007, 04:18 PM
You seem to be overlooking the fact that the Centennial is already sold out and Lofts @ Maywood has sold so well they are going ahead with phase 2. Also the Park Harvey is around 90% full and Maywood Park and Block 42 are almost sold out.

Architect2010
11-01-2007, 06:37 PM
But.... isnt Oklahoma's housing counstruction still way above the national average? The economy i know for sure is higher than the average. I think it was in the newspaper, and I definitely think Once the Buildings open up and people look at them, they'll sell more units...

fsusurfer
11-01-2007, 07:23 PM
You seem to be overlooking the fact that the Centennial is already sold out and Lofts @ Maywood has sold so well they are going ahead with phase 2. Also the Park Harvey is around 90% full and Maywood Park and Block 42 are almost sold out.

According to Block 42s web site, and looking at the units they have posted sold/unsold - over half the units are unsold. And I did mention Maywood lofts continuing construction only having sold 44% of the units. Im not sure about Maywood Park as their site dosent list sales. Isnt Park Harvey 1/2 rentable as well? I do think the cheaper units will sell at a better rate than the more expensive units.


But.... isnt Oklahoma's housing counstruction still way above the national average? The economy i know for sure is higher than the average. I think it was in the newspaper, and I definitely think Once the Buildings open up and people look at them, they'll sell more units...

The only thing this means, is it will take a little bit longer for the problems to get there but believe me, they are coming.

Karried
11-01-2007, 07:27 PM
With the current national real estate market conditions, I wouldn't dream of buying a townhouse/condominium anywhere, even Hawaii.. okay, maybe Hawaii... but Oklahoma? No, not if you don't want to lose your downpayment in less than six months ( values drop, appraisals don't come in, etc) .

Okay, yes, I'm pessimistic about housing right now.. in about 2 years, let's talk about condo purchases but today.. uh,uh, no way .. they are the first things to lose value when the market is struggling.. ( and it IS struggling, even here) ...that's my personal opinion, not to be taken as investment advice.

fsusurfer
11-01-2007, 08:30 PM
With the current national real estate market conditions, I wouldn't dream of buying a townhouse/condominium anywhere, even Hawaii.. okay, maybe Hawaii... but Oklahoma? No, not if you don't want to lose your downpayment in less than six months ( values drop, appraisals don't come in, etc) .

Okay, yes, I'm pessimistic about housing right now.. in about 2 years, let's talk about condo purchases but today.. uh,uh, no way .. they are the first things to lose value when the market is struggling.. ( and it IS struggling, even here) ...that's my personal opinion, not to be taken as investment advice.

Karried, you are exactly right. There is a "perfect storm" brewing right now in the financial markets. The current housing credit problem we are seeing is only the first wave. There will be more. That will be followed by the credit-card credit crunch. Wall Street just got a glimps today that lowering interest rates wont cure the problems that have been building up for decades. The government, today, injected another 41 BILLION dollars into the banks. Add that to the previous billions they added a couple months ago. Can you say printing-press? With the 2 rate cuts in the last month, we have witnessed the biggest transfers of wealth in history. Gold is at is 28 year high and rirising inflation looks to be inevitable. One reason why Oklahoma has been somewhat imune to the credit crunch problems so far, is because housing in most places IS so affordable. The last place I'd invest in right now, is a condo with no land ownership.

bwana_bob
11-01-2007, 08:35 PM
Here's an affordable urban house:

http://www.treehugger.com/distopic1.jpg

Metro, you need a new Realtor®. I prefer working with Utopic Realty - your simple and pious friend in the community. I can give you the name and number of my agent if you ring me up on IM.

By the way, they only sell polyfoam houses: no cardboard boxes in this city!

dismayed
11-01-2007, 09:43 PM
Only a 1000$ down-payment? Lets hope they have at least had their loans approved..

I looked at those a few months ago. The deal is for $1000 you can put a hold on a unit. No credit check or loan pre-approval is required from what I recall. When they start building out your unit, at that time you have to convert that $1000 to earnest money and put down a down-payment and come up with the loan pre-approval. If you don't, they keep your $1000 and you walk away.

BoulderSooner
11-02-2007, 09:52 PM
ok a couple of things .. the lofts at maywood .. will not be ready for move in until next oct nov timeframe .. so a year out from the first move in .. having 44% sold is a pretty good thing ..

as downtown and midtown grow in population you will see more and more retail/bars/restaurants get built and you will see the populations of these areas grow faster and faster ..

I just moved to midtown and i can't believe that i haven't lived down town longer .. it is great being close to everything ..

now could i have had a much much bigger space in say yukon or mid del or choctow or norman ..... yes .. but it is about being in the urban environment.

betts
11-03-2007, 07:33 AM
Why would anyone pay $200 a foot to live downtown? It's cheaper than Nichols Hills. Maywood Park has concrete walls. all brick and cast stone exteriors, slate roofs, heat pumps and copper guttering. The living spaces are comparable to a luxury single family home. If I were to move there my utility costs, insurance and taxes would decrease, and maintenance would be minimal. It may be high relative to other downtown properties, but still cheaper than other luxury homes.

TStheThird
11-03-2007, 08:51 AM
You people forget that there are people that actually desire to live downtown. Supply and demand. There are people that will pay the premium to live downtown. I would worry about downtown housing blowing up if we had four high rises under construction. We don't have enough units available or in the works to cause me to worry unless demand completely disappeared.

As long as you are not planning to sell in the next year or two, you will be fine buying a property downtown. You will make money owning that property. I would be more worried about the developers building a half billion cookie cutter houses in Edmond. They are going to run into a big problem when there is way too much inventory. Supply is going to outpace demand if the developers don't calm down. Then prices are going to drop because people will get scared that they are going to lose money on the house they were planning to live in for the next 10 years and sell for $30,000 under the appraised value and start screwing everyone else in the area that tries to sell because the comps will begin to creep down. Next thing you know, every house in Edmond will be on the market for well below market value. Luckily, at that point, investors will come in and buy some of those properties because they can get them with built in equity. Once everyone calms down, prices will adjust back to market value and then continue to appreciate a steady pace.

We are struggling a little out here in Virginia Beach, but real estate is twice as expensive and wages are pretty much the same as in Oklahoma. Right now investors are scooping up the townhomes in the mid $200's because they are selling for $30,000 below city assessment. They will get a renter in and hold the property for five years. They will make money.

OKC... as more ammenities come online for downtown residents, demand will continue to increase. They will evenutally build units at all price points. Everything they are building right now is high end with top of the line finishes. For me, I have been warped by the prices for housing out here and will think everything is ridiculously cheap when we move back in a year. I still can't believe the value you can get in some of the historic neighborhoods. Cheers...

fsusurfer
11-03-2007, 02:09 PM
You people forget that there are people that actually desire to live downtown. Supply and demand. There are people that will pay the premium to live downtown. I would worry about downtown housing blowing up if we had four high rises under construction. We don't have enough units available or in the works to cause me to worry unless demand completely disappeared.

As long as you are not planning to sell in the next year or two, you will be fine buying a property downtown. You will make money owning that property. I would be more worried about the developers building a half billion cookie cutter houses in Edmond. They are going to run into a big problem when there is way too much inventory. Supply is going to outpace demand if the developers don't calm down. Then prices are going to drop because people will get scared that they are going to lose money on the house they were planning to live in for the next 10 years and sell for $30,000 under the appraised value and start screwing everyone else in the area that tries to sell because the comps will begin to creep down. Next thing you know, every house in Edmond will be on the market for well below market value. Luckily, at that point, investors will come in and buy some of those properties because they can get them with built in equity. Once everyone calms down, prices will adjust back to market value and then continue to appreciate a steady pace.

We are struggling a little out here in Virginia Beach, but real estate is twice as expensive and wages are pretty much the same as in Oklahoma. Right now investors are scooping up the townhomes in the mid $200's because they are selling for $30,000 below city assessment. They will get a renter in and hold the property for five years. They will make money.

OKC... as more ammenities come online for downtown residents, demand will continue to increase. They will evenutally build units at all price points. Everything they are building right now is high end with top of the line finishes. For me, I have been warped by the prices for housing out here and will think everything is ridiculously cheap when we move back in a year. I still can't believe the value you can get in some of the historic neighborhoods. Cheers...

Of course there are people who want to live downtown. However, that 1) Dosent mean they will get approved for a loan. 2) Dosent mean they will be able to sell the place they currently live in. and 3) mean they can afford to live there anyway.

As far as units available, if you ask me it seems there are to many units coming on-line at once. There are EIGHT different developments planned to open in the near future. And far as houses in Edmond, your telling me a 200,000 cookie cutter house wont have any resale value? I'd be more worried about buying a 500,000 dollar townhouse and being able to re-sell it after its been lived in for 10 years in a market that hasnt been tested for re-sale value yet, than buying a 200,000 dollar home that includes a plot of land and is desired by more people. (more people/famlies, believe it or not would rather live in the burbs than downtown in a city).

TStheThird
11-03-2007, 07:00 PM
I am telling you when there are a thousand houses on the market in Edmond, they won't hold value in the short term. If you buy property in any area of the OKC metro where there is demand to live... downtown, the suburbs with great schools, etc, over the long run, you will make money.

We have local guys developing that real understand the pulse of the city. There are what a couple hundered units under construction. Someone could come in and build one residential tower with more units than are currently under construction. All of our projects are small. The developers are taking their time.

dismayed
11-03-2007, 07:16 PM
I've been considering a move to the downtown area. Here are my major beefs:

1. None of these places have interior renderings until well into their construction. I want to know what the inside of the place I am considering forking over hundreds of thousands of bucks is going to look like. Builders who are merely supplying a floor-plan are being ridiculous.

2. Maybe it's a lot to ask, but in addition to renderings I would like to know what materials are going to be used in a condo that I might be buying. I've seen how some of the downtown housing has turned out... an attempt at modern that falls short. There are lots of modern architecture and interiors magazines out there... I'm not sure our local builders are keeping up with what 'modern' is all about these days. And frankly if a builder can't tell you what he is carpeting and what he is putting wood down on then I think the guy is a poor planner and has no business demanding a price premium out of his potential buyers.

3. Why the heck aren't builders focusing on the surroundings and the views that they are providing? Whose bright ideas brought us condos that face the drunk tank, condos that face a big loud boring highway, and condos that face nothingness? Is it so hard to point a freaking building towards downtown so we can see sky scrapers?

4. I will be real blunt here. One of OKC's biggest problems is that we are trying to build a bunch of "new old stuff" in our downtown. We never went through the brownstones phase in this city so why are we trying to build things up and pretend that we did? I'm not opposed to having this style of housing downtown, but how about we set the bar a little higher and come up with a unique vision for what OKC is. How about truly modern living downtown? Sleek lines, large windows, good views, integrated landscapes, and so on would be cool.

betts
11-04-2007, 05:20 AM
I am considering a move to the brownstones in Maywood Park. Why? I like traditional housing, but am about to become an empty nester. Maywood Park's all concrete construction, slate roofs, copper guttering and heat pumps appeal to me because of how low maintenance the homes will be. I love the divided light windows and doors, because I don't like extremely contemporary interiors, and they can easily go any direction you want. I've always admired the brownstones in New York and Boston, and so the idea of owning something similar is really appealing to me. I love the rooftop patio and fireplace. The rooms are spacious and when you're inside they feel like houses. And yet, you have downtown living, so for me, it's the best of both worlds. There will be other people like me, who want the feel of a house, and yet want the easy upkeep of a "brownstone". I like the idea that there are multiple types of living options in the area.....not everything has to feel "new" and modern. You lose a whole segment of the population if that's all you build. And these brownstones look old with a slight contemporary twist. They don't try to look as if they were built 150 years ago. I like everything about them. They are expensive, but there's nothing cheap about their construction, and they will look great in 100 years just like the brownstones in other cities, because they're so well built.

Karried
11-04-2007, 06:52 AM
Dismayed, I haven't looked at any of the aforementioned units/projects personally, but usually new construction offers a design center in which you choose from a standard set of interior materials (tile, carpet and paint color) and then upgrade to amenties not offered by the builders (ie granite countertops, hardwood floors or stainless steel appliances) .. but even if they are not offering design centers, surely they are providing clients with lists of included features?

You could then choose your amenities and tailor your new home to what you like.

I would call around and ask if they are planning on provided that info or have it available.

In addition to all the aesthetics, I would focus on energy efficiency items. (This is for anyone buying a home in today's market) As builders start to get a little uneasy about holding onto properties too long, they tend to negotiate more in this market. Instead of lowering prices (which affects the comps in the entire neighborhood) they tend to 'throw in' and offer more upgrades and features. It never hurts to ask in negotiations for items and if and when they agree, always have it in writing in your sales contract .

Some things I would ask for would be more and higher rated insulation installed, higher SEER air conditioning units, energy efficient windows.. things that will affect your bottom line each month.. yes, granite is nice but if I had to choose between 7K on countertops or 7K in energy saving upgrades, I would pick the latter. You can always add granite later. Anyway, sorry to go off!

I think the most important thing in any housing decision is finding what works for the individual and really not look at your house as an investment as much as a place to call home.

CuatrodeMayo
11-04-2007, 07:41 AM
4. I will be real blunt here. One of OKC's biggest problems is that we are trying to build a bunch of "new old stuff" in our downtown. We never went through the brownstones phase in this city so why are we trying to build things up and pretend that we did? I'm not opposed to having this style of housing downtown, but how about we set the bar a little higher and come up with a unique vision for what OKC is. How about truly modern living downtown? Sleek lines, large windows, good views, integrated landscapes, and so on would be cool.

You are so right on.:congrats:

BG918
11-04-2007, 02:25 PM
I also agree. I would like to see more midrise or even highrise condo/apartment buildings built before I see 2-3 story "townhomes". I realize there is a need for those but I think young professionals would rather live in a building with views.

CuatrodeMayo
11-04-2007, 03:14 PM
I'm not saying townhomes as a housing type are bad...just tryingto make them look like old brownstones.

Pete
11-04-2007, 05:23 PM
In fairness, McDermid and his partners are building the Lofts at Maywood Park right next to the townhomes and they are very urban, have big windows, etc. The Browstones will merely be part of a much bigger development that will have all types of housing.

However, The Hill is nothing more than several rows of townhouses and most won't even have views. A waste of a great piece of property thanks to OCURA.

betts
11-04-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't even think the Maywood homes look like traditional brownstones. They've got much cleaner lines, and no embellishments. I think they're a contemporary take on a traditional style, which is great. If we have housing that is all contemporary, it's boring too. What's wrong with a mix of styles, especially when different ones suit different tastes and lifestyles? It will actually make housing look like it evolved, rather than was all plunked down within a five year period.

Pete
11-04-2007, 07:08 PM
AND Maywood Park has their homes right up on the street and are 3-4 stories, many with rooftop decks.

The Hill looks like a suburban project in every respect, but especially the site plan, which looks like an apartment complex in Edmond, complete with private streets and cul-de-sacs (w/ zero retail, restaurants or anything else).

MAYWOOD PARK

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/maywood1.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/maywood2.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/maywood3.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/maywood4.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/maywood5.jpg


THE HILL

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/hill1.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/hill2.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/hill3.jpg

onthestrip
11-04-2007, 08:46 PM
I agree with some of those opinions on The Hill. Being on the land that it is, The Hill should have tried developing something that integrated the good bricktown and downtown views that it has. Probably something a little more dense and taller.

dismayed
11-04-2007, 08:55 PM
Dismayed, I haven't looked at any of the aforementioned units/projects personally, but usually new construction offers a design center in which you choose from a standard set of interior materials (tile, carpet and paint color) and then upgrade to amenties not offered by the builders (ie granite countertops, hardwood floors or stainless steel appliances) .. but even if they are not offering design centers, surely they are providing clients with lists of included features?

I did notice that the places that are farther along have more detailed information available. But when I wrote that post I was thinking of one of the condo developments downtown specifically. I went and set in their design studio and talked to the folks for an hour with really no better idea of what the place would look like than when I visited their website before the visit. Yes they were very pleasant and said I would have lots of things to choose from, but when it came down to the details (such as... what kind of wood on the floors, details on the stainless steel appliances, the configuration of the staircases in the lofts, etc., there were few details). A lot of my questions were met with "you know I bet we could talk to the builder and work something out...." I don't think I was particularly demanding about anything. It was just surprising.

I may check back with them in a few months. Maybe it was still just too soon.

Honestly I'd really like to live someplace that says "young professional." I have nothing against other generations, but it would be nice for once to be around other business people my age. I have noticed that most of the people who are also checking out downtown condos do not really fit this category, and that concerns me. Maybe I'll wait for phase 2.

BG918
11-04-2007, 09:43 PM
^ At least The Hill is sorta tucked away next to I-235 unlike Maywood Park and other future Triangle developments that are next to downtown and along major north-south routes like Walnut and Oklahoma. Speaking of Oklahoma, someone told me they want to eventually build an Oklahoma bridge that would better connect the Triangle to Bricktown (and eventually the new blvd.) Does anyone know anything? Right now Oklahoma stops at the tracks.

I would love to see the more industrial-type modern lofts on the east end of Bricktown where there are currently a bunch of warehouses. Along Sheridan would be a great place for these, both in Bricktown east of Stiles to Lincoln and in the Arts District along Sheridan and Main west of Walker to Classen. More new construction midrise-type buildings amongst the historic buildings in Midtown anywhere north of NW 6th to NW 13th. That is a very desirable area in between the downtown core, the Heritage Hills/Mesta Park neighborhood, and OUHSC that is also redeveloping at a fast rate.

betts
11-05-2007, 06:23 AM
There will be a walking bridge from the end of Oklahoma into Bricktown, and the street will be landscaped at least up to fourth street, according to the plans I've seen and what I've been told.