Future of the Church 4 (of 5)
Published by Craig Groeschel October 18th, 2007 in leadership, LifeChurch.tv, church and global church. 34 Comments

More Missional and Less Consumeristic

The consumer-Christian will not survive in the next ten years. You might ask, “What is a Consumer-Christian?” In our church, it is the person who “church shops” for a church that meets his needs. Church is all about them. When the church doesn’t work for them anymore, they shop for another one.

As the inevitable persecution of Christians increases, going to church won’t be something we do to feel good about ourselves. Instead of thinking church exists for us, we’ll remember that we are the church, and we exist for the world.

The consumeristic-Christian (if they are truly believers) will either become fully committed to Christ or they will fall away. Those remaining will become mission-minded.

The future church will be made up of believers who:

Are sick of living in material comfort while millions starve to death.
Make money to give more than to consume.
Believe in the power of prayer and fasting.
Are willing to suffer for the cause of Christ.
Will be engaged in missions both locally and internationally.
See it as their role to lead people to Christ.
See it as their role to help people in need.
I believe that things in our country will need to become increasingly bad for the Church to wake up and be the Church. Unfortunately, I think things will get worse. But the good news is that the Church will get better.

What do you think?

He's right, but it sure is an ironic statement concerning how much lifechurch plays to the masses. They aren't as bad as Joel Osteen's self-help happy-feely Lakewood Church by any means, but they certainly do cater to the very consumeristic demographic he speaks of.

Mission-minded churches don't make people pay a fee for the privilege of rendering community service.

He's right, but it sure is an ironic statement concerning how much lifechurch plays to the masses. They aren't as bad as Joel Osteen's self-help happy-feely Lakewood Church by any means, but they certainly do cater to the very consumeristic demographic he speaks of.
I was thinking the exact same thing.

ohhh sssnapp!!

The consumer-Christian will not survive in the next ten years. You might ask, “What is a Consumer-Christian?” In our church, it is the person who “church shops” for a church that meets his needs. Church is all about them. When the church doesn’t work for them anymore, they shop for another one.

As the inevitable persecution of Christians increases, going to church won’t be something we do to feel good about ourselves. Instead of thinking church exists for us, we’ll remember that we are the church, and we exist for the world.

The "Consumer-Christian" that he's talking about has been around much longer than his church and will likely be around much longer than 10 years from now.

Besides, over the course of history, most humans are "Consumer-Believers" anyway. They won't just shop for a Christian church to attend, they'll shop for an entire belief system to subscribe to if that's what makes them happy.

And the whole "persecution of Christians" thing baffles me. Christian Churches are the biggest bullies in this country BY FAR. Screw 'em if they think they're being picked on. Try being a gay Atheist sometime and see how "persecuted" you are compared to a Christian.

In our church, it is the person who “church shops” for a church that meets his needs.


Church is all about them. When the church doesn’t work for them anymore, they shop for another one.

Yes, our society does operate that way in many instances.

Substitute Marriage or Relationships...or Career. I think a lot of strides have been made in some ways where people are no longer willing to settle just 'because' someone tells them it's the right thing to do. They are more educated/enlightened and have more options. They are willing to do the research to put themselves in a situation that works for them.

And, yes, some people decide that church, any church doesn't work for them.


going to church won’t be something we do to feel good about ourselves.

I thought that was a strange comment. That reeks of self- indulgence similar to instant gratification (unless I'm misunderstanding).

Going to church used to be about honoring God and serving him and the community... now it's to feel good about ourselves?


Yes, and I think some churches are going after (almost attacking) a secular lifestyle much more than athiests or agnostics attacking/persecuting a Christian lifestyle.

Churches can be a wonderful thing. I've seen many people get through things that no way in hell they would have made it through without faith and the embrace of a church congregation.

On the other hand, I've seen people get chastised, ostrasized and shamed in the same setting... so at that point, 'church shopping' can be a good thing.. at least they're giving it another chance.

A little story, when I was little, my mom took us to church every Sunday.. (it was pretty cool, I remember getting a Donny Osmand album for learning all the Books of the Bible) but my dad was very abusive and beat the crap out of my mom all the time... well, at that time ( in the Dark Ages - lol) divorce was taboo, no matter what. But, my mom gathered all of her courage and decided to give us a better life, so she left him. Well, the church ladies took it upon themselves to show their disdain .. they stopped calling my mom, they stopped including her in anything, they hung up on her when she called...so, needless to say, we didn't go back. Of course, this was nearly 30 years ago... I would like to think times have changed, but I fear they haven't.

Sometimes, unless you fit into the mold determined by the church, it can be a hard thing to feel welcome.

Future of the Church 4 (of 5)
Published by Craig Groeschel October 18th, 2007 in leadership, LifeChurch.tv, church and global church. 34 Comments

More Missional and Less Consumeristic

The consumer-Christian will not survive in the next ten years. You might ask, “What is a Consumer-Christian?” In our church, it is the person who “church shops” for a church that meets his needs. Church is all about them. When the church doesn’t work for them anymore, they shop for another one.

As the inevitable persecution of Christians increases, going to church won’t be something we do to feel good about ourselves. Instead of thinking church exists for us, we’ll remember that we are the church, and we exist for the world.

The consumeristic-Christian (if they are truly believers) will either become fully committed to Christ or they will fall away. Those remaining will become mission-minded.

The future church will be made up of believers who:

Are sick of living in material comfort while millions starve to death.
Make money to give more than to consume.
Believe in the power of prayer and fasting.
Are willing to suffer for the cause of Christ.
Will be engaged in missions both locally and internationally.
See it as their role to lead people to Christ.
See it as their role to help people in need.
I believe that things in our country will need to become increasingly bad for the Church to wake up and be the Church. Unfortunately, I think things will get worse. But the good news is that the Church will get better.

What do you think?


Looks like Craig has changed his reading habits.

Someone needs to bitch smack that stupid Craig dude. Or all the stupid sheep that follow him. Or both.

Ouchie

Wait a minute, Misty. Read what Craig's Lifechurch post actually said. I have been somewhat of a critic in the past, but it appears he's been reading Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and others in the emergent church. Read it again - I didn't understand why he should be "bitch-slapped," for that. Well, here it is, I'll repost the crucial part - how can we argue?

The future church will be made up of believers who:

Are sick of living in material comfort while millions starve to death.
Make money to give more than to consume.
Believe in the power of prayer and fasting.
Are willing to suffer for the cause of Christ.
Will be engaged in missions both locally and internationally.
See it as their role to lead people to Christ.
See it as their role to help people in need.

I thought it was very well said.

And what % of Life Church's income goes towards charitable pursuits? He sure can talk the talk, but when he tries to walk the walk, I think he falls flat on his face.

Mid, do you have figures proving your claim as well? If you're going to talk the talk and say that to the church, then provide figures showing the church is not. You tend to always focus on the negatives of Christians instead of all the positives they do. Christians are just like you and everyone else, we're not perfect and don't claim to be. You often complain but rarely back up your claims with figures or links to validify your claims.

In fact, one of the reasons our church can do so much, is A.) we spend a fraction of what most large churches spend on a building B.) Just like any large business, there is strength in numbers. By having a centralized staff, it eliminates the need for numerous positions at each location, thus you can hire a better quality staff at one location that can serve multiple locations at a much cheaper cost than it would to have a large staff at each location like most large churches do. Most of our campuses were built under $2 Million, some much less than that. Now just for an example only, Crossings just spend about $15 million to create a wedding chapel with a steeple that holds 500 people. (That's just an addition to a church, whereas, LC could build 7 -9 campuses for that). LC figures they can reach many more people by having 7-9 locations versus expanding one campus and thus have a greater impact on more people and be able to do more charitible persuits in more places.

FYI, the NW campus has adoped Tulakes Elementary this year (the poorest and most crime ridden area in the state!). We purchased them ALL their school supplies, backpacks, and other items, as well as do missions projects at their school helping them fix it up, etc. We are also providing the families with Thanksgiving dinners and their Christmas dinners and presents. Not that you care, because I'm sure you'll argue we should use the money for teachers salaries instead. The church also gives to other churches both time and money and resources. In fact, many people from our campus last week went to help build a CATHOLIC church in rural Oklahoma. There are hundreds of mission and compassion events each week that the church does, that most people don't even know about mainly because they would rather stereotype the church instead of digging in and finding the facts or helping themselves. Mission FAQs | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/1069/Default.aspx#member)

You fail to mention that Lifechurch.tv is the only megachurch out there not selling their resources (sermons, sermon outlines, books, videos, kids lessons, etc.) this is a very lucrative market and most megachurches make a killing off it. Together | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/871/Default.aspx) Lifechurch.tv is setting the example and gives it free to hundreds of churches globally every week at LC's expense. We believe in the church globally and that all churches are the church and we should act like it and work together.

We also send teams on a regular basis to help rebuild N.O. and clean up the devastation. The City Rescue Mission in downtown OKC is also one of our big charitable contributions we partner with. World Missionaries | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/1073/Default.aspx)

Craig and his family also donate the profits of his books to missions projects and gives the overwhelming majority of his income to missions and compassion projects both inside and outside the church. He also gives hundreds of copies away for free. His wife is a great servant of others and serves people less fortunate in more ways than I know such as cleaning single mom's houses.

We also work with the homeless each week (we have an inner city campus called Mercy Ministries) Mercy Ministries | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/?p=1118) that feeds the homeless and poverty striken each week and provides them with clothes, counseling, prayer, and other things.

We're also doing a huge block party for the homeless next weekend. All these things aren't done or said to brag, or to get publicity, but to just to provide a few examples to you of the numerous charitable persuits the church does each week that you may not know about.

Metro - everything you said is true. Those things are done through Lifechurch...but you are kind of being deceitful when you say LC provides those as charity. LC does not provide those things, the people within the church provide those things. As I recall...LC organized the donations for that school but the people of the church were asked to buy and bring the supplies or to give extra money for someone from the church to go purchase the items. And every in state mission project I have seen charges you to participate...for what I still don't know. To cover gas or lunch to get there? Last time I checked lunch and gas to get downtown didn't cost me $25 or $30. So where is that money going? Now don't get me wrong, I attend LC and I get a lot out of the sermon and used to be a pretty dedicated member. But I have to say over the last year or so, I really have seen things and thought about things within that church that just bother me. So I have reduced myself to one of those people Craig complains about that comes late, leaves early, and doesn't tithe. I stay out of the politics and just take what I get out of the sermon itself. He is a great teacher but it's his own church that has made me turn into the consumeristic attendee...so I don't know what to say about his theory.
My son love switch. Wonder when they will start charging for that.

If everything I said is true, then how come you are saying otherwise on a few things? True, many people from the church did pitch in and buy a lot of the school supplies, but the church bought plenty as well as well as purchased all 700 or so of the backpacks and water bottles. There was no charge for the mission trip also. Most are only $10, not $25 or $30. Part of giving and serving is "sacrifice" not just time but spiritually, physically, financially, and otherwise. To sacrifice something you love, for something you love even better. I.E. Okay, I'll have to sacrifice time with my wife, kid, etc. if I serve, but I love helping others, pouring into their lives, and changing their eternity even better. I love money, but $10 might change someones life instead of buy me two starbucks mocha lattes, I love to rest and relax on Saturdays, but I'd love serving a single mom and cleaning their house and making her life easier even better.

If the church provided everything and all you had to show up, you're only sacrificing time, which is still great. I'm not the missions pastor or on staff, so I can't answer the question exactly, but I'm confident the missions pastor or someone else on staff would be more than happy to address anyone's concerns. You and I both know that the vision of the church is not to be consumeristic but be contributors, so stereotyping the church from a consumeristic standpoint isn't quite fair. One can find a fault in anything if that's what they are looking for, OR they can choose to accept the good in something that usually outweighs the bad. We also both know they will not ever charge to attend a service or kids ministry, so that's a moot point. Now, if it was a special event, maybe at Incredible Pizza nextdoor or something, that might be another case.

I really should keep my mouth shut regarding the religious talks but seriously......"live via satellite, it's Craig with a message about not being consumeristic".....seriously. Via satellite. Seriously.

but I'd love serving a single mom and cleaning their house and making her life easier even better.
.

I'll send you my address. It could use a good cleaning.

Did you know that single mom's like to help out their community also? I can go down to the shelter and contribute anytime. It's amazing... I don't have to pay them anything, they just appreciate my help.

And the church did not buy the backpacks. They were donated.

I guess for a rich kid playing helper it probably is viewed differently - it's all about how the day makes YOU feel for sacrificing yourself so whole heartedly. For those of us that are broke and appreciate the help when we get it understand what it's really about to help someone else out without selfish intent. Therefore, we think it's silly to give someone money in order to serve the community when that mere $10 or $15, that is such a small amount to you, is at least a week's worth of groceries for some of us.

Give me an example of something the church has done (besides build other churches) with the regular sunday morning offering - which is the church's fund. I'm not talking about donations or gift giving above and beyond tithes, or Craig's pockets, or members of the church donating. If there is anything - I am unaware of it and would love to have my opinion on this topic changed.

FYI, I'm not a rich kid, I'm older than you probably think and am married and help watch other people's kids and help them financially from time to time. I did not know the backpacks were donated, and I wasn't attacking you, just bringing up some other points for consideration and can respect yours as well. And I understand what it means to be broke, I was raised in a not so well off family, live below our means in a smaller than average house, and live paycheck to paycheck like everyone else hoping, planning, and praying to be debt free someday.

We will know that the persecution of Christians in America is over when there is a Christian President. Or 43 of them in a row. -Jon Stewart

We will know that the persecution of Christians in America is over when there is a Christian President. Or 43 of them in a row. -Jon Stewart

We'll know the nation is safely out of the hands of children, when they quit quoting comedians as if they were a serious source of news.

Serious source of news or not, his point is no less valid.

Mission-minded churches don't make people pay a fee for the privilege of rendering community service.

Explain please!

For example NE -
coming up on Nov. 10th LC has a mission trip planned to go downtown and invite all the homeless folk to come hang out with them. They will be handing out donated clothing and providing haircuts. The job of the people that go on this mission trip is to ride city buses or walk around and invite people to attend.
If you would like to participate in this mission - make checks payable to LifeChurch for the amount of $10. What is this payment for? LC says "Payments made by mission trip participants are considered charitable contributions to the LifeMissions ministry of LifeChurch.tv"....whatever that means.

We'll know the nation is safely out of the hands of children, when they quit quoting comedians as if they were a serious source of news.

If I see any do so, I will let them know you feel that way.
By the way, I hear a group downtown is assisting the humor challenged, Shall I have them clear a week on the calendar for your visit?

... I have been somewhat of a critic in the past, but it appears he's been reading Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and others in the emergent church ...

That was the point I was sheepishly trying to make. It'll be interesting when I speak with some of my LifeChurch.tv friends about how all this 'new' talk is being received.

but I love helping others, pouring into their lives, and changing their eternity even better. I love money, but $10 might change someones life instead of buy me two starbucks mocha lattes,

Aye. And there's the evangelical rub. The "mission" is about the message, and not the service.

While I applaud the efforts of anyone who volunteers their time, energies, efforts, monies to charity in the simple service of giving (which I have done countless times), with the "church" (whichever church/religion one is affiliated with), the mission is about the message - i.e. conversion. Altruism cannot be altruism for its own sake. It's always about the "saving," and not just the giving. Whichever way you slice it, there is a big, fact, hairy, and some would say "selfish," M.O.

On another note: My favorite ironic licence plate EVER - seen right here in OKC in front of Westies Shoes on Memorial Road about 6 months ago. Picture This: Big White Mercedes (E-Class?) Sedan. Shiny and new. Obviously expensive. License plate reads (and I used to have the photo evidence): "FAITHBZ."

Yup. Gotta love those "commercial" Christians!

Can we not embed YouTube videos? I can't get the code to work.

Anyway, here is a must-see video for you ParksGal and anyone who sees Christianity as strictly a mission to "save" people. This is Brian McLaren, in three minutes and forty five seconds, shaking the foundations of the church. Welcome to the new reformation!
Brian McLaren on Jesus & The Kingdom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NtgjNLNpao)

Here's another quick McLaren video (2:43) on The Worship Industry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPRKCmYuCWA)

And then if you just can't get enough McLaren - (3:43) - on Justice, Power & The Kingdom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pFz3IATU8w)

If after those videos, you want to learn more about the Emergent Church, a good place to start is Brian McLaren's Website (http://brianmclaren.net/)

Solitude,

McClaren has an interesting message, and one that is very much in keeping the way my faith has evolved personally. While it has strayed from "evangelism," the Christ I learned about was a Christ of compassion, not of consumerism.

I suppose this consumerism and mass-production of church teachings is one reason I chose to step away from Christianity as a sole spiritual source and look to other traditions and values of faith to fill in those gaps where modern evangelism left me empty and seeking.

We are all born, human and naked, into this world, starting out the same. Our souls are of one creator (G_d). How each of us seeks to manifest that sense of G_d in our lives is up to us, and is largely based upon the culture around us, and our individual free will.

I wish many of the "message evangelicals" I knew had a greater understanding of this. For many of them, their faith is about the society their religion creates for them and their outreach is just an extension of that. Nothing wrong with it, but it seems they are in it for the "in factor" and not for the beliefs themselves necessarily.

Anyway. I'm veering off topic, I'm afraid.

That was very well said.

That's a beautiful video... That is how I always imagined Christianity to be or what it should be about, but somehow people always blow that idea right out of the water.

That's a beautiful video... That is how I always imagined Christianity to be or what it should be about, but somehow people always blow that idea right out of the water.

It's interesting, within the church, Brian McLaren is either the voice of the devil - or he's this century's Martin Luther. There doesn't seem to be a lot of in between. I happen to think his book, "Generous Orthodoxy," is the 21st century equivalent to the 95 Theses being nailed to the Wittenburg door.