I returned from a business trip to Des Moines last week and wanted to share some thoughts. First, I drove, I needed to spend a few days in Wichita, KC and an extended period in Des Moines, so with all the cities being on I-35 it worked out perfectly to make it a road trip.

I can't tell you enough how impressed I was with Des Moines. The city center has an urban vibe that I just don't feel in Oklahoma City. Two other colleagues from OKC met me in Des Moines and both of them were as impressed as me. The downtown, while not having as many tall buildings has many midsize buildings and it is bustling. Lots of business, storefront retail, restaurants, cafes, coffee shops, it was a smaller version of a bustling big city. Why can't Oklahoma City get the same retail? Also, the residential living downtown is way further down the road than OKC. There are numerous loft living options, apartments, condos, etc. Downtown Des Moines is also very clean. Nice city. The western and northern suburbs of West Des Moines, Clive and Urbandale are all booming as well. I visit a lot of cities, but there was a special spark in Des Moines.

The roads. Oh my. Driving from Oklahoma through Kansas, Missouri and Iowa, the roads rank (from best to worst) Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma. The Kansas highways are a model. In fact, why not just give up and let the Kansas Transportation Dept. handle our highway system? They're that good. But driving on these other state roads made me realize just how bad, no, horrible our state roads are, just pitiful. Somebody should have to answer to this problem. Embarrassing is not too strong a word as I traveled back into Oklahoma on I-35.

With all that said, I was glad to be back home. I saw where the old Lynn Hickey car dealership has been torn down at May and I-44 and there is a sign for retail development in the way of a shopping center and pad sites. With Lowe's just a few blocks south, I expect to see some decent retail at that intersection soon.

The Kansas roads are great, particulary their portion of I-35. The only bummer is, it is a toll road, and I think the toll is something crazy like 8 or 9 bucks to get all the way from the border to Kansas City...they do do a great job maintaining it though, and the gas stations they built on that highway have always been very well maintained (even though the gas seems to be a little more expensive there...)

Take the toll out and then let me see how well they keep it maintained. Last time I checked, our toll roads were fine, but I think toll roads are a screw job. We need to get over our tax fear and just pay a freaking road tax already.

Yeah, I noticed how great the KS roads were this summer while travling them but I do think it's because they are toll that they are so great and maintained so well.

Sounds like Des Moines is a well kept secret. If our city were as great as you say Des Moines is, we'd be crowing about it far and wide on the national scene.

That's a good way to put it, traxx.

I was just looking on the Internet and you can get a feel for things at two websites.
Downtown Des Moines (http://www.downtowndesmoines.com) This is an EXCELLENT site. Look at how the rollovers open on the left side.
Des Moines' Historic East Village (http://www.eastvillagedesmoines.com)

One thing we all thought was neat was that Downtown, East Village (like Bricktown) and the State Capitol is all together.

As for the roads, the I-35 toll road is nice, but the rest of the Kansas highway system is really nice too. Sometimes, things like this can tell a story, just look at the two websites for ODOT and KDOT. Night and Day - just like our highways.

Oklahoma Dept. of Transportation (http://www.okladot.state.ok.us) (Basic HTML - looks like it was designed in 1997)

Kansas Dept. of Transportation (http://www.ksdot.org) (Slick, modern and useful resources. Click on the middle link "Long Range Plan". Talk about good information!)

Yeah, i think a lot of Oklahoma City leaders and developers are too busy patting themselves on the back to realize that there are lot smaller markets that are WAY nicer and more developed. While we have seen some great improvements in amenties and services, time and again it just seems like no real pride is taken in the way they are packaged and presented, while no real long term plans are worked up in development.

I think this may be why Mid-Town may end up being the jewel of the city. It has had and will have a lot harder go of it, given the difficulties the area presents, but it also seems to have more of an overall vision and direction than even bricktown had when it started or even has today. I kind of thought that this year would be a watershed year and push OKC over the tipping point where we would see real urban life return to the city, but it just seems to keep dragging along without any real spark.

Did anyone click on those downtown housing options in Des Moines? Great building materials, but at prices most people on this board may pay.

It seems we either have lousy options, like Legacy, or overpriced ones that take years and years to build.

Yep, and not one of them look like the projects, ala Legacy at Arts Summit.

Downtown Des Moines - I want to live here (http://live.downtowndesmoines.com/)

Why can they build reasonably priced housing that looks good and we build expensive housing, some of which OCURA had control over and looks like crap?

Honestly, I think we have some nice things in the pipeline, but I'm beginning to get skeptical as to whether they'll actually come to be.

BDP and SoonerGuru, I hadn't really taken the time to look at the actual properties. Wow. Those really are nice! The link from BDP, for some weird reason, just went to one property. Here is the link that shows the properties on a downtown map and then you click on the one you want to see.
Downtown Des Moines - Living Downtown (http://live.downtowndesmoines.com/developments/rent/)
I agree 100%. It's one of those "If they can, why can't we" kind of things!

Here's some individual sites for some of those places - in DES MOINES!@!
The Kirkwood of Des Moines (http://www.thekirkwooddm.com/)
GATEWAY LOFTS - Urban Loft Living in Downtown Des Moines, Iowa (http://www.gatewayloftsdm.com/index.html)
Hallett Apartments (http://www.metropropsdsm.com/hallett_apartments.htm)
Arlington Apartments (http://www.metropropsdsm.com/arlington_apartments.htm)
Des Moines Downtown Living (http://www.desmoinesdowntownliving.com/) (Look at all the options from this place.)

It almost makes me mad!@!
http://www.gatewayloftsdm.com/images/neighborhood/skyline1.jpg

I wish our Highways were mosre aethetically pleasing like in Dallas, where they paint the supporting beams and put stars in the middle.
why can't we do simple stuff like that???

I do think the new I-40 will be very nice, but the rest of the state's highways are nothing compared to kansas, or texas.

Des Moines does have some nice developments. Omaha is also nice. I'm not worried about OKC though. I think everyone is in agreement that Lower Bricktown fell short of what everyone wanted it to be, but it's only one of MANY districts in the city.

My friends and I have always viewed Bricktown as a party/hangout spot. We never saw it as a residential/retail district. In that regard, it's doing great. I agree that Midtown is a great area and as of now is my favorite.

That said, I'm what some people are calling a YPer(25) and I am honestly excited about the development going on in OKC. I think that we will ultimately have one of the most diverse and unique cores in the Southwest/South. We have many areas that are feeling themselves out just as the populace is trying to get a feel for what every given area is supposed to be. That's why everyone I know is so excited about C2S. It will be an area to live, work and shop a la Midtown/Western Ave. etc. Bricktown isn't that....but at least to my friends and I...that's fine.

I bet you anything that Des Moines was one of those cities that never had dozens of blocks leveled for 'urban renewal' in the 60's and 70's.

It's much easier to bring something back that never really left... I've spent a lot of time in Milwaukee and it definitely fits in that category. Even while people were fleeing for the suburbs they always had a decent amount of housing and retail that stayed.

OKC has a much bigger obstacle which is filling in huge holes and virtually zero housing until very recently. And once retail leaves, it's darn hard to get it back as we are discovering.

And the Midtown reference is apt here because the huge percentage of projects are just renovating existing buildings and bringing back what was once already there. That's much easier than replacing a vast amount of vacant lots or junky stuff that has been thrown up in the last few decades.

My favorite was West Des Moines. Especially, the shops at Jordan CreekThe Market At Jordan Creek (http://www.marketatjordancreek.com/)
Given, this was a very upscale shopping district with tons of eating places. Just to name a few....Cheesecake Factory, Joe's Crab Shack, PF Changs, Red Robins, etc. But I could stay all day at the Costcos and the The Market. The Market was awhole like The Central Market in Dallas, Texas. Everything was so fresh and unique. And the variety was just amazing! Heck, even the Walmart in West Des Moines was very upscale! Something you just wouldn't see around here.

I wish our Highways were mosre aethetically pleasing like in Dallas, where they paint the supporting beams and put stars in the middle.
why can't we do simple stuff like that???

I do think the new I-40 will be very nice, but the rest of the state's highways are nothing compared to kansas, or texas.

I agree architect, but keep in mind our state finally got somewhat smart and is doing it on all new highways. Look at the exchange on I-35 in Moore, you will see the shape of Oklahoma and Scissortail Flycatchers similar to Texas' stars. ODOT has been painting beams, they just paint them dirt brown for some stupid reason instead of a nice blue or I think a hunter green would be better and look nicer and more environmentally friendly and help blend into and enhance the landscape.

Well said Decious.

Despite Des Moines having more downtown retail and residential options, I'm not worried about OKC either and wouldn't trade it. We have much much more momentum in OKC with large events. All they have is a AAA baseball team, of course we have one too, but we also have Blazers, Yard Dawgs, bigger concerts ala Ford Center, professional womens' football, professional lacrosse, the Oklahoma River and all that is bringing, soon to be NBA team, probably have much more convention business than they do, many more highrises than they do, etc. I think the momentum is in OKC's favor, however as someone said, we cannot overlook what smaller cities are doing that we are not.

I agree architect, but keep in mind our state finally got somewhat smart and is doing it on all new highways. Look at the exchange on I-35 in Moore, you will see the shape of Oklahoma and Scissortail Flycatchers similar to Texas' stars.

Also, I believe the new construction along 235 north of 23rd will have some sort of relief sculpture on the walls.

I noticed this topic on Des Moines, and I decided that it might be good if I answered some questions and told you a little bit about the city from an insider's persepective.

First off, Des Moines is one of the cities that was a victim of urban renewal. If anyone is interested, I can post a satellite photo showing the surface lots we are currently blessed with. Urban renewal was the cause.

However, we've definitely been working hard to fix those issues. Nearly $2 billion has been invested the downtown in just the last 5-6 years resulting in two Wells Fargo Offices, a new Science Center with IMAX, a $75 million (and growing) Riverwalk, a new arena, and plenty of other amentities. I'm not sure how OKC is attracting downtown construction, but Des Moines has done it through lots of tax breaks and subsidies.

One of the focuses has been restoring the victims of urban renewal. Restorations/conversions have been place in Court Ave. (entertainmnt district), East Village, and South Dowtown. Also, maybe new construction buildings are modeled after their older counterparts. Des Moines set out with a goal to have 10,000 downtown residents by 2010, and we're at about 8,000 right now.

New office development has been essential too. Wells Fargo, Wellmark, Allied, and the various facets of government have all built, or are building, large offices. In addition to their additions, the Riverfront YMCA, which solitude may have seen, is likely to be torn down to built a new mixed-use tower (no word yet on height). We were very close to getting a new 18-story hotel, but that did not come through.

If you have any other questions about what is currently happening in the Skywalk City, please let me know.

Thanks for that input Des Moineser and I'm happy that your city is doing so well. I think most of us like to see other towns do well in the area of new urbanism.

Was there any time over the last few decades where all retail left your city center? Because that's what happened in Oklahoma City and it's just been crippling in many respect. And until recently, we've had almost zero housing units.

And we haven't had any new office development since the mid-80's due to high vacancy.

We did, Malibu.

After the Flood of 1993, the downtown died. Court Ave. was basically shuttered and most of the downtown retail emptied. The whole tihng caused a real shift towards the suburbs. Des Moines had actually been improving up until that point. Most of the high-rises we have today were built in the late 70s-80s, during the Farm Crisis and the balance of power was shifting. It took about a decade after the Flood to really get the momentum going again.

Part of the problem I think both our cities have is just the image we automatically receive. Iowa is full of dumb hicks and Oklahoma is unedcuated and backwater, according to the stereotypes. Part of the uphill battle of attracting people and business to Des Moines has always been conquering the stereotypes. People worried about living on a farm, getting hit by a tornado, and not having adequete electricity; all these things are typical Coaster-worries.

It seems, however, that the whole middle-section of this country is really starting to hit its stride, so good things are coming for both of us. In addition, I've heard that Will Roger's World Airport is quite impressive. We're taking forever to get our 1960's terminal up to aesthestic specs, so congrats on the progress you've made in that and other areas.

Any other questions?

Also, if any of you are interested, try absolutedsm.com, our local development site.

There you can see renderings/specs/etc. on just about any projects going on up here.

Thanks for the wonderful comments Des Moineser. You sound like a very well educated and insightful person who is proud of your city yet also willing to share ideas that might help another (and vice versa).

Please, welcome to OKCTalk (officially) and definitely chime in whenever you have anything to add (or constructively contribute).

Any other questions?

I'm curious how retail survived downtown up until 1993. In most places including OKC, retail left the core with the white flight of the 50s and 60s.

Nearly $2 billion has been invested the downtown in just the last 5-6 years resulting in two Wells Fargo Offices, a new Science Center with IMAX, a $75 million (and growing) Riverwalk, a new arena, and plenty of other amentities. I'm not sure how OKC is attracting downtown construction, but Des Moines has done it through lots of tax breaks and subsidies.





I have always thought that Okc needs to offer tax breaks and subsidies in order to spur downtown development.

Pre-1993 Flood Retail? I think I was going to get really detailed earlier, and decided against it.

However, this is really Des Moines' second rebirth. Des moines had a trolley system downtown in the 40s, bustling with ground retail. There are pictures around the interent, I might try to look some up. I'd assume OKC was much the same. The 50s-70s were an awful for the downtown. Crime was high, there were abandoned factories, there was no money, no real hope. Crime was so bad that a man and his family who fixing up a building DT then were shot by some person living in a nearby alley. Anyway, the 1970s and 1980s brought a opportunity to us that I don't believe OKC had. The Farm Crisis ravaged the Midwest, with land values plummeting, people leaving, jobs being cut, etc.

During this bleak era is when the all but 2 of our 300+ fters were built. The Ruan and Financial Centers (Ruan is the 33-story brown one, Financial Center is the 25-story white one) were built as spec office space. They attracted some of the rural flight into Des Moines, and more investment followed. In fact, the only tall building that began constuction outside of the 70's-80's was the sleek silver EMC building, next to Financial. Des Moines became a financial services hub for the world, and the city rapidly grew, some much so that it was during this period that Des Moines became the largest city in the state. It had been the Quad Cities before that. They were a manufacturing town, they lost big. Downtown retail was mainly supported by people just visting the downtown, as we had VERY few residents in DTDM as compared with today.

The Floods wiped out a lot of the retail that was being supported by the new interest in the downtown. After the waters subsided, we regained the tilte of Dead Moines. This time, we have strengthened the retail base by putting the consumers within walking distant of ethnic foods, clubs, and other more general stores. It's helped to cure the 5 O'clock sidewalk rollup, and stores and restaurants are starting to stay open later.

I'm guessing OKC didn't get smacked nearly as hard by the Farm Crisis. I'm not certain of your economic demographics, but our economy grew because it invested in services. It was really a strange choice, as services are a shaky base for economy really, but we made it work. Governors Ray and Branstad both gave big tax breaks to financial firms, and we attracted the jobs and residents that are helping us today.

Today, the city is using the tax breaks instead, as our past two governors don't much care for business or tax cuts. We have a Vision Iowa program which has a sliding scale for state investment depending on the number/pay/type of jobs a company will create, and this program does work across the state. We have biofuels tax breaks, historic renovation breaks, and large companies can often land city/county subsidies. While I'm not sure how OKC is attracting business, I can guarentee tax breaks will make a HUGE difference.

As far as subruban retail, DON'T let your city put all your reatil in one basket. You may have heard of the super-regional mall called The Jordan Creek Town Center. While it has attracted dozens of new stores, a Joe's, P.F. Chang's, etc., it has really wiped out a lot of the retail activity in the rest of the westside of the city, stretching almost to the downtown. It has generated billions, but it'll take us several years to regain the retail in other areas.

Well said Decious.

Despite Des Moines having more downtown retail and residential options, I'm not worried about OKC either and wouldn't trade it. We have much much more momentum in OKC with large events. All they have is a AAA baseball team, of course we have one too, but we also have Blazers, Yard Dawgs, bigger concerts ala Ford Center, professional womens' football, professional lacrosse, the Oklahoma River and all that is bringing, soon to be NBA team, probably have much more convention business than they do, many more highrises than they do, etc. I think the momentum is in OKC's favor, however as someone said, we cannot overlook what smaller cities are doing that we are not.


And OKC hosted the Big 12 basketball tournaments which was definitely fun...

But you're looking a bit short-sighted related to Des Moines minor league teams. There is an AHL team (Iowa Stars) and an NBA-D League team (Iowa Energy) playing downtown at the new Wells Fargo Arena. Each of these franchises are considered Triple-A in their respective sport.

Also Des Moines has teams of lesser stature in the Menace which is minor league soccer and the Barnstormers which is Arena Football League 2.

Des Moines is also hosting the 2008 NCAA Division I Track & Field meet, which we are very excited about.

Good points spinningbird, but I still argue that OKC is a stronger sports and large events market although Des Moines is nothing to ignore for sure. I am willing to bet we bring more conventions to the city than DM. Also with the hosting of the NBA's Hornets, Oklahoma River Regatta's, Big 12 and NCAA basketball tournaments, Big 12 (men and women's) baseball,softball, and wrestling tournaments, AAA World Series, National Speed Boat races on the river, Centennial events, and others. I'm assuming OKC draws more people to large events on average. Also couple this with two major football schools nearby, one being a powerhouse that is almost always in the top 10 nationally.

Good points spinningbird, but I still argue that OKC is a stronger sports and large events market although Des Moines is nothing to ignore for sure. I am willing to bet we bring more conventions to the city than DM. Also with the hosting of the NBA's Hornets, Oklahoma River Regatta's, Big 12 and NCAA basketball tournaments, Big 12 (men and women's) baseball,softball, and wrestling tournaments, AAA World Series, National Speed Boat races on the river, Centennial events, and others. I'm assuming OKC draws more people to large events on average. Also couple this with two major football schools nearby, one being a powerhouse that is almost always in the top 10 nationally.

In other words, your daddy can beat up his daddy. That's pretty silly.

I've been to Des Moines and found it to be one classy little city. I remember when I was there wondering what kind of effect that Jordan Creek would have on the smaller retail areas. That is a monster and is a showplace, (Oklahoma City has nothing nearly as nice btw), but I bet others are certainly taking a hit. Always pros and cons. As for downtown Des Moines, I liked it a lot. It's not as big as OKC, doesn't have the tall skyscrapers and such but I agree with the original poster that it has a more urban vibe with the retail. Des Moines is one of my favorite cities for its size and in many ways is more progressive than Oklahoma City. It doesn't all come down to sports that's for sure. I question whether OKC's convention biz is all that much bigger either. Oklahoma City is a great city, but Des Moines is right there with us.

There are concerns here about our six minor-league teams, that we might not be able to support them. I'm not really worried about it, although the Menace (Soccer) or the Engergy (Basketball) will lose first if anyone does. The good news is that the AFL waived the size restriction on our market (since we've had an AFL team before) and if attendance is good, in 3-4 years, we'd get the real deal.

Sports success in cities is very hard to predict. Look at Omaha, 200,000 more people were unable to support an AHL franchise (NCAA hockey really did them in) and the UFL Beef are probably leaving too. There are a lot of demographics that go into pro sports.

In other words, your daddy can beat up his daddy. That's pretty silly.

I've been to Des Moines and found it to be one classy little city. I remember when I was there wondering what kind of effect that Jordan Creek would have on the smaller retail areas. That is a monster and is a showplace, (Oklahoma City has nothing nearly as nice btw), but I bet others are certainly taking a hit. Always pros and cons. As for downtown Des Moines, I liked it a lot. It's not as big as OKC, doesn't have the tall skyscrapers and such but I agree with the original poster that it has a more urban vibe with the retail. Des Moines is one of my favorite cities for its size and in many ways is more progressive than Oklahoma City. It doesn't all come down to sports that's for sure. I question whether OKC's convention biz is all that much bigger either. Oklahoma City is a great city, but Des Moines is right there with us.


You are right. Des Moines is one classy little city. Far ahead of anything its size and many substantially larger cities, IMO. But I'm a little curious about your statement that it is not as big as OKC and "doesn't have the tall skyscrapers and such" like OKC. According to Emporis, each city has exactly 5 buildings over 100 meters tall. And DesMoines' tallest is quite a bit taller than OKC's tallest.

Des Moines' 5 tallest:
801 Grand 192 M
Ruan Center 140 M
Des Moines Marriott 111 M
Financial Center 105 M
Plaza Building 104 M

OKC's 5 tallest:
Chase Tower 152 M
First National Center 136 M
City Place 134 M
Oklahoma Tower 132 M
McGee Tower 120 M

I would be curious to see office space comparisons. My guess is that downtown Des Moines has more office space than downtown OKC.

(Not trying to make this an OKC-Des Moines contest. I think OKC has done phenomenal things with its downtown and things are only getting better. But it never hurts to look at what other cities have done. If you just compare yourselves to Tulsa, you'll be too-easily satisfied.

How does Des Moines compare in attracting upscale retail and grocery, i.e. comparable to Saks, Nordstrom, Whole Foods, etc? This is a sector OKC has had some trouble with and I don't understand why.

We may have a Saks, I'm actually not sure.
Whole Foods, no. Nordstrom, fell through.

As for Class office space, the downtown has 4.8 million square feet of it, with 110,000 sq. ft. of that vacant. That pegs our vacany at ~3%, which explains the recent speculative office expansion in the downtown. The space houses a little less than 80,000 workers per day, one of the highest per capita on the continent.

The market's going to be hurting soon, though, because ~600,000 sq.ft. is about to be vacated between Wellmark (new building downtown) and Aviva (New suburban 'campus'). So sq.ft. price is going to quite a bit. Analysts are saying that it'll take 3-4 years to fill up.

I noticed that OKC has some VERY modern buildings on the skyline, Des Moines has not been so lucky. We've had nothing over 30 stories for 16 years now. OKC seems to really be hitting its stride, so be proud of what you're doing and stay active. I've been reading around this forum, and I'm impressed, DSM isn't getting an NBA team anytime soon.

Let us not forget where the current version of OKC had to start from. Fifteen years ago downtown OKC was at the bottom of the barrel. Let nearly every bank and insurance company in Des Moines collapse in a 2 years period and see what they look like after that. Thank goodness Detroit sucked or OKC could have had the worst downtown situation the nation. I remember going to Oklahoma Tower one time in 1989 at about 8 PM. I stood in the middle of Robinson for several minutes and never saw a car. Today I would be run over multiple times.

If it wasn't for Tulsa, OKC would have close to 2,000,000 people. Anyone care to guess the population of Iowa's second largest city. Not to knock Des Moines or Iowa but they can focus all of the states development money (public and private) on one area. Oklahoma has to share those funds between two large cities.

I dont think this is a pissing match, no one can argue that OKC is much bigger than Des Moines (I mean, OKC is almost 3 times larger). However, I think there are many things we can learn from DSM AND I think DSM has a lot to be proud of.

In many ways, DSM competes with a MUCH LARGER city and metro in OKC and to me that is saying something. I too agree that DSM is a neat little city.

As for downtowns, overall OKC is still bigger and taller (although DSM's newest tallest is taller than Chase). Downtown OKC has over 6M sq feet leasable (not including any privates, which would probably bring us over 10M). And Im sure OKC's convention business is larger, you'd expect that since we're a larger city. No one should argue that.

But like I said, there is something to learn from DSM. Surely OKC has a wonderful sports market with OU, OSU, and our three+ minor leaguers and will soon have the NBA and probably MLS, but I think the main thing we can learn from DSM is it pays to be a progressive city and have a SOLID inner city!!!

It appears (from Des Moineser) that is what really separates DSM from OKC, we have suburbs forever and they, well dont. Im sure both of our inner cities are the same population, but look how much bigger OKC is - our inner city is more sparse and that is really what we need to work on.

We can't have a donut of a city/metro and expect to have Saks and Neiman - when they usually want to be in a downtown central and prosperous area. I think we need to populate/densify the inner city and luckily we are doing so, albeit SLOWLY!!!! And you do have to admit that it is recent that people even give OKC any credit for being a major league market, despite our size.

I say, Kudos to Des Moines. Hopefully they can attract a major-league team, like they are trying to get again with the AFL. OKC also had an AFL team (was our first solely owned major-league team since we shared the USFL Outlaws with Tulsa), and I think DSM's market should definitely be strong enough for that.

I dont think this is a pissing match, no one can argue that OKC is much bigger than Des Moines (I mean, OKC is almost 3 times larger). However, I think there are many things we can learn from DSM AND I think DSM has a lot to be proud of.

As for downtowns, overall OKC is still bigger and taller (although DSM's newest tallest is taller than Chase). Downtown OKC has over 6M sq feet leasable (not including any privates, which would probably bring us over 10M). And Im sure OKC's convention business is larger, you'd expect that since we're a larger city. No one should argue that.




It's a bit of a stretch to say that downtown OKC is taller when DSM's tallest is significantly taller than OKC's tallest, DSM's second-tallest is taller than OKC's second tallest... Realistically, I think it's more of a draw overall.

As for size, according to CBRE, downtown DSM has 11.5 M sq feet of office space. Price Edwards shows about 5.25M square feet in downtown OKC. (and I'm not sure where you would come up with 4M + square feet of "privates" in downtown OKC. Downtown OKC has "almost" 1500 hotel rooms; downtown Des Moines has about 1575.

Not sure how to find a measurement of convention business, but I wouldn't be betting my salary on OKC's being larger. ;-)

As for size, according to CBRE, downtown DSM has 11.5 M sq feet of office space. Price Edwards shows about 5.25M square feet in downtown OKC.

Good to see you on the forum Oil Capital! CBRE shows downtown DSM's core having 4.1M sq feet of competitive rentable space. Also, my girlfriend works at Price Edwards and Company. That 5.25 M sq foot total only includes the 18 buildings that they show to have competitive rentable space....OKC's core CBD competitive market/not comprehesive amount of space throughout the entire submarket.

Good to see you on the forum Oil Capital! CBRE shows downtown DSM's core having 4.1M sq feet of competitive rentable space. Also, my girlfriend works at Price Edwards and Company. That 5.25 M sq foot total only includes the 18 buildings that they show to have competitive rentable space....OKC's core CBD competitive market/not comprehesive amount of space throughout the entire submarket.


Thank you Decious!

Where did you get that 4.1M sq feet. Here is the link to the survey that shows the numbers I reported:

http://www.cbrehc.com/pdf/MarketSurvey.pdf

It shows 9 M square feet in the CBD "core" plus 2.5 M square feet in the CBD "fringe" (east of the river)

I've been looking for a full survey of the downtown OKC market and the Price Edwards Company survey is the closest I could find. Suffice to say that those 18 buildings constitute the vast majority of the OKC CBD office space. (Note that the Price Edwards site also shows a total inventory for all of OKC of only about 14M square feet, or is that incomplete as well... FWIW, that comports with what I remember of the OKC office market from a few years back when I knew it a little better, and there hasn't been all that much new construction.)

BTW, in comparing the size of two CBD's, space is space; it doesn't really matter if it's competitively leased or owner-occupied.

Good to see you on the forum Oil Capital! CBRE shows downtown DSM's core having 4.1M sq feet of competitive rentable space. Also, my girlfriend works at Price Edwards and Company. That 5.25 M sq foot total only includes the 18 buildings that they show to have competitive rentable space....OKC's core CBD competitive market/not comprehesive amount of space throughout the entire submarket.


Thank you Decious!

Where did you get that 4.1M sq feet. Here is the link to the survey that shows the numbers I reported:

http://www.cbrehc.com/pdf/MarketSurvey.pdf

I've been looking for a full survey of the downtown OKC market and the Price Edwards Company survey is the closest I could find. Suffice to say that those 18 buildings constitute the vast majority of the OKC CBD office space. (Note that the Price Edwards site also shows a total inventory for all of OKC of only about 14M square feet, or is that incomplete as well... FWIW, that comports with what I remember of the OKC office market from a few years back when I knew it a little better, and there hasn't been all that much new construction.)

Here's another source that says there are 5.2M square feet of office space in downtown OKC (it turns out he's also from Price Edwards, but notice he doesn't include any qualifiers, like "in just these 18 buildings..."):

REBusinessOnline - Articles (http://www.rebusinessonline.com/article_archive/brokeroutlook/oklahoma.shtml)

Exactly. That's why I'm trying to get some clarity from PE & Co. as to the total sq ft. of the entire OKC CBD. That would actually allow for a true comparison. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that downtown DSM has more total sq ft. However, I highly doubt that it's more than twice the capacity of dt okc. I'll post back when my emails are returned.

Oh...the competitive sq data is on the same pdf that you alluded to Oil Capital. I was told that the 5.2M number for OKC was the same type of statistic.

I wish I hadn't started this thread. It seems impossible to compliment another city and leave it at that. Both sides have to get exercised about "tallest buildings" and CBD "leasable" office space. It's quite the spectacle and all so silly.

I wish I hadn't started this thread. It seems impossible to compliment another city and leave it at that. Both sides have to get exercised about "tallest buildings" and CBD "leasable" office space. It's quite the spectacle and all so silly.

Nobody is exercised (unless you are). I have shown nothing but the greatest respect for OKC. I am constantly amazed at the improvements and LOVE downtown OKC. But that doesn't mean we have to blindly accept all statements made as being factual and correct. Why does it seem impossible to speak about facts without someone thinking insults are being thrown? Nothing could be further from the case.

I wish I hadn't started this thread. It seems impossible to compliment another city and leave it at that. Both sides have to get exercised about "tallest buildings" and CBD "leasable" office space. It's quite the spectacle and all so silly.

I'm sorry if you feel that the thread has been steered away from what you intended. I've already posted(along w/ everyone else) that I completely agree with your impression of Des Moines. I think it's a great city w/ a bright future.

Also, there was a thread started at absolutedsm.com that cites this OKCTalk thread. They appreciate all of the good comments and are proud of the fact that you noticed the progress that they've made. I think that this is a great thread and I'm glad that you started it.

There have been some comparisons made between the two cities, but you yourself started that in your initial post. Consequently, I think that everyone has just continued the conversation that you initiated. Nevetheless, it seems that everyone is in agreement that both cities are doing great. No need to call people silly. :smile:

Oil Capital and I are simply discussing something that interests both of us. Personally, I just saw a good opportunity to learn something. Oil Capital, I'll PM you when my emails are returned.

Think about it. Had I not started this thread about how much I liked Des Moines on a recent trip, we wouldn't be seeing the "pissing matches" and the questions about tall buildings. (By the way, what I meant when I said DM didn't have as many tall buildings was -- density. Even on that list someone posted, there were 8 buildings listed and 6 of them were in OKC. A 30 m difference is pretty significant when you are talking about several buildings clumped together. But, I didn't even mean that in a disparaging way.) But, of course, someone had to jump in and question it (read: offended). Then someone questions this and then someone questions that and instead of an admiration thread, which is what I expected, we get a thread that is full of "my daddy can beat up your daddy." Maybe you don't see it, but please go back and read the thread. I started it and I regret it. It's not the Des Moiners fault, it's not the OKC posters fault - I guess it's just what happens. Especially when you have people who are starry eyed about their respective cities. And maybe you're right - maybe it's fine that cities get so worked up over fine details.

And no, I'm not exercised, only sad that we Americans can get all bent out of shape at how many meters bigger a building is when there are people on this planet who live in the dirt, have never seen a TOWN (much less have a SPORTS franchise), have nothing to eat (much less have all the chain restaurants), and measure their living space by the few feet by few feet rather than worry about a CBD "leasable space." Sometimes our reality of the planet is terribly skewed.

I just know the back and forth over this and that took something away from my OP, which was only meant to compliment the city of Des Moines.

And then again - maybe I am all wrong and read the thread the wrong way. Sorry.

Exactly. That's why I'm trying to get some clarity from PE & Co. as to the total sq ft. of the entire OKC CBD. That would actually allow for a true comparison. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that downtown DSM has more total sq ft. However, I highly doubt that it's more than twice the capacity of dt okc. I'll post back when my emails are returned.

Oh...the competitive sq data is on the same pdf that you alluded to Oil Capital. I was told that the 5.2M number for OKC was the same type of statistic.


I see it now. Two issues with that. You excluded what they call the "CBD fringe" (which is still CBD). That puts the "competitive number up to about 5.2M square feet. And again, if we are comparing the size of the two CBDs we really need to compare all of the space, not just the competitive space. The "non-competitive" space still exists, after all. I can pretty much guarantee that downtown Des Moines has far more owner-occupied office space than does downtown OKC. The Principal Financial Group has a huge owner-occupied complex. As does Meredith Corporation. I think Wells Fargo owns their very large complex. And at least a couple of the big insurance companies own their buildings as well. (You can see by comparing the CBRE numbers that there is approximately 6.3 M square feet of "non-competitive" (i.e., owner-occupied) office space in downtown Des Moines.

In downtown OKC, on the other hand ... Sonic, and SandRidge are the only owner-occupied buildings that come to mind. (and the Sonic building is already included in the list of 18... I suspect the McGee Tower/SandRidge Bldg would have been, raising the total to 5.7 M square feet, but when this list was created it was neither occupied nor on the market.)

I am guessing you have not been to downtown Des Moines. Having been in both downtowns many many times (in fact, having worked in both downtowns), I am not at all surprised that downtown DesMoines has more than twice the office space of downtown OKC. Take a cruise through downtown Des Moines on Google Maps and I think you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. :-)

Think about it. Had I not started this thread about how much I liked Des Moines on a recent trip, we wouldn't be seeing the "pissing matches" and the questions about tall buildings. (By the way, what I meant when I said DM didn't have as many tall buildings was -- density. Even on that list someone posted, there were 8 buildings listed and 6 of them were in OKC. A 30 m difference is pretty significant when you are talking about several buildings clumped together. But, I didn't even mean that in a disparaging way.) But, of course, someone had to jump in and question it (read: offended). Then someone questions this and then someone questions that and instead of an admiration thread, which is what I expected, we get a thread that is full of "my daddy can beat up your daddy." Maybe you don't see it, but please go back and read the thread. I started it and I regret it. It's not the Des Moiners fault, it's not the OKC posters fault - I guess it's just what happens. Especially when you have people who are starry eyed about their respective cities. And maybe you're right - maybe it's fine that cities get so worked up over fine details.

And no, I'm not exercised, only sad that we Americans can get all bent out of shape at how many meters bigger a building is when there are people on this planet who live in the dirt, have never seen a TOWN (much less have a SPORTS franchise), have nothing to eat (much less have all the chain restaurants), and measure their living space by the few feet by few feet rather than worry about a CBD "leasable space." Sometimes our reality of the planet is terribly skewed.

I just know the back and forth over this and that took something away from my OP, which was only meant to compliment the city of Des Moines.

And then again - maybe I am all wrong and read the thread the wrong way. Sorry.

No, I don't see it. I don't see ANYone getting bent out of shape. Sorry I joined in with your admiration of DesMoines by pointing out that its downtown is in fact larger than the downtown of a city nearly 3 times its size, while simultaneously speaking of my admiration for downtown OKC and the job it has done with itself in recent years. OKC can definitely look to downtown Des Moines with admiration and with hopes of duplicating some of their successes. Indeed OKC needs to set its sights far higher than comparing itself to Tulsa (which OKC has left completely in its dust)

I see it now. Two issues with that. You excluded what they call the "CBD fringe" (which is still CBD). That puts the "competitive number up to about 5.2M square feet. And again, if we are comparing the size of the two CBDs we really need to compare all of the space, not just the competitive space. The "non-competitive" space still exists, after all. I can pretty much guarantee that downtown Des Moines has far more owner-occupied office space than does downtown OKC. The Principal Financial Group has a huge owner-occupied complex. As does Meredith Corporation. I think Wells Fargo owns their very large complex. And at least a couple of the big insurance companies own their buildings as well. (You can see by comparing the CBRE numbers that there is approximately 6.3 M square feet of "non-competitive" (i.e., owner-occupied) office space in downtown Des Moines.

In downtown OKC, on the other hand ... Sonic, and SandRidge are the only owner-occupied buildings that come to mind. (and the Sonic building is already included in the list of 18... I suspect the McGee Tower/SandRidge Bldg would have been, raising the total to 5.7 M square feet, but when this list was created it was neither occupied nor on the market.)

I am guessing you have not been to downtown Des Moines. Having been in both downtowns many many times (in fact, having worked in both downtowns), I am not at all surprised that downtown DesMoines has more than twice the office space of downtown OKC. Take a cruise through downtown Des Moines on Google Maps and I think you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. :-)

Sounds good. I agree that ALL of the space needs to be compared. That's why I'm trying to determine what that number is in regards to OKC. Obviously, it's more than those 18 buildings. I'll still shoot you the numbers that Cordell sends me this afternoon. Did you live in Des Moines at one time? I spend most of my time in SoCal and OKC. My girl wants to visit Chicago for Thanksgiving(her aunt) and I'm thinking about driving. That would give me a good chance to see Des Moines and maybe even shoot over and check in on Omaha.

Just curious, does anyone know how much all these figures are skewed by the Iowa State Capitol being in downtown Des Moines?

Just curious, does anyone know how much all these figures are skewed by the Iowa State Capitol being in downtown Des Moines?

I don't believe government buildings are included in these surveys (by definition they are not commercial, whether "competitive" or not), so I don't believe these figures are skewed at all by the Iowa State Capitol being in downtown Des Moines. (Except indirectly, by the fact that some associations and lobbying groups may have their offices in downtown Des Moines, while more of those in OKC may be out on Lincoln Blvd. But I would estimate the overall effect of that on downtown Des Moines' numbers would be minimal.)

One of the things that killed downtown OKC is Northwest Expressway. If you take all of the office buildings on NWE and moved them downtown you would have a very impressive collection of office buildings. One things I can't figure out is how cities in Canada and Australia can have enourmous downtowns with populations similar to or smaller than OKC. I wonder why that is.

they're probably denser.

Yes they are denser - but why. Did the cities refuse to extend public services out to the country? Zoning laws? What is it?

Calgary - 1,079,000
From east with the Rocky Mountains in the distance (http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=306956)

One thing about Americans is we inherently want to sprawl. People in this country are addicted to their SUVs, McMansions, and wide open spaces. We are an economy driven by Wal-Mart and fast food. This kind of mindset dates back to the land rush in the 19th century. It seems that innercity revitalization and dense growth in newer metros like OKC is more of a recent trend. As oil prices rise, I expect this trend to really pick up.

I don't know much about Canada so I'm just guessing here, but what I do know is Canada generally does things a lot closer to how Europe does them. If this is a factor in city planning that would explain a lot.

Canada concentrates its employment in a central downtown area. This is true for all of canada's cities with the exception of the big 3 (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) who are more American like (with suburban employment) but still have very big downtowns. Smaller big Canadian cities like Calgary, Edmonton, Victoria, Halifax, etc - their employment is DOWNTOWN, so their skylines are quite large. There is almost NO suburban employment and definitely no suburban office space.

I think the reason for this is that the smaller cities up here (Canada) can concentrate on one commercial area (having more or a suburban one would be a disaster). Large cities (the big 3) are just like here, but still have HUGE downtowns as well - they weren't always as populated as they are today - so even the big 3 started off with JUST downtown for offices; today they are so huge that suburban office districts are necessary.

In america, suburban office districts are necessary due to white flight mostly and the costs of running an owner-occupied skyscraper. Not to mention, add in parking - since most American cities have poor or no mass transit (whereas the big 3 in canada all have subways). .. And there you have the difference.

Why live in the suburbs and drive your SUV downtown stuck in traffic and have to pay to park to work? Only New York and Chicago is this possible and most of those people aint driving, due to their subways and train networks (just like the big 3 in Canada).

Ill tell you this, even the smaller canadian cities (Calgary, Edmonton, so on) have mass transit systems. However, this was due to their having a central commercial office downtown - so the two feed each other/ having a transit system makes possible a large downtown and vice versa.

The same does not exist in America outside of the BIGGEST CITIES.

I understand how you could feel the way you do solitude, but I think it's been a pretty interesting thread myself.

Question to those from Des Moines: One of the major problems in our downtown when it comes to attracting residential interest is the lack of a grocery store. As it is now, you must drive quite a distance to the nearest supermarket and it's not the nicest, it's definitely not walking distance. What do you have downtown in the way of grocery options?

I understand how you could feel the way you do solitude, but I think it's been a pretty interesting thread myself.

Question to those from Des Moines: One of the major problems in our downtown when it comes to attracting residential interest is the lack of a grocery store. As it is now, you must drive quite a distance to the nearest supermarket and it's not the nicest, it's definitely not walking distance. What do you have downtown in the way of grocery options?

Excellent question.

I was talking to someone who was there a few weeks ago and they were surprised that downtown Des Moines had 3 locally owned grocery stores.

A few pics of Des Moines:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/capitol3.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/capitol2.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm1.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm2.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm3.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm4.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Candrson/dsm5.jpg