View Full Version : Oklahoma's Fight To Save HB 1804



Major
09-05-2007, 12:28 PM
I found an Oklahoma blog that is keeping a list of actions a number of organizations are taking in their effort to defeal our right to protect our borders from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals in our state. One national Christian group has ties to the White House and will attend a conference at the U.S. Dept of Education in a couple weeks. Their president, Miguel Rivera, has been to Oklahoma several times and calls us racists for passing HB 1804. This group is planning to sue our state!

What I found here was an eye opener. I'm thinking this is a good time for all legal citizens of Oklahoma to ban together.

zTruth : HB 1804 Oklahoma's Fight To Protect Its Citizens (http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/oklahomas-fight-to-protec.html)

Midtowner
09-05-2007, 12:43 PM
1804 is probably unconstitutional anyhow. As much as I like the concept of the law, I'm pretty sure that state laws passed to govern immigration will find themselves completely preempted by federal immigration law. Since the federal immigration laws vest complete authority in the INS, I can't imagine that a state could intrude on that authority.

We shall see.

BDP
09-05-2007, 01:57 PM
Man, we always need someone to hate.

I don't mind the competition. Bring it on. Free labor markets mean open borders. Big deal... You still want that $.35 sweatshirt from Wal-Mart. Then relax and enjoy the cheap stuff brought to you by immigrants.

I don't know if HB 1804 is racist, but that link sure is, at the very least it's a bit hysterical and paranoid.

Americans demand cheap stuff and high wages. The only way to reconcile that is immigrant labor and/or outsourcing. This is not about lines in the sand or stupid culture wars, it's about economics and our consumer market creates the demand for immigrant labor, not the other way around.

soonerguru
09-05-2007, 06:35 PM
Major,

You should direct your ire toward US Corporations, who are profiting from this immigrant labor. Big business -- and small business, too -- will cease to function as we know it without this kind of labor.

And if these "close the borders" (an impossibility) and "deport the illegals" laws work as they're intended, expect more layoffs as aforementioned US companies simply shut down their operations here and offshore them.

Don't blame judges and pols, blame globalization.

okcitian
09-05-2007, 07:06 PM
I've heard many times anti-immigration laws such as, HB 1804, has a linkage to "ethnic cleansing", i never hear people talk about other illegals, other than Mexican nationals moving in this country/state. One thing i've noticed is how ignorant Americans tend to think of the economic scale Mexico is but that's besides my point. I do believe that it is scary to be illegal. If i were from Mexico, without skills, in poverty level I may decide that the U.S. is my only option, yet I would probably prefer Canada since its an easier route to take. My mom came from Mexico, legal, yet she didn't have any struggle whatsoever in Mexico since she came from an upper middle class neighboorhood and moved here since she married my dad. One thing she has complained is how people make thier face once they hear her accent and doesn't get this same reaction in larger cities. Immigrant labor is needed for many reasons and I surely hope amnesty can be given. One country that has benefitted greatly from immigration that I could think of is Spain, which had brought an easier route for latin americans and is becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the EU. I don't know of any troubles the U.S. has our own birthrate but Spain needed it since they are running out of a working population since its such a developed country.

Midtowner
09-05-2007, 07:37 PM
Gloom and doom...

As I said before, I don't expect these laws to work because they're preempted by federal law. Now.. if the feds ever actually decide to enforce the law on the books? God save the illegals.. they're going to really be toast.

At any rate, I do not think there's an "ethnic cleansing." That is pure hyperbole. If your ethnicity is being cleansed, generally speaking, you know it.. or rather you don't because there's a fair chance you're dead.

The bottom line is that when I go to another country, do I respect their laws? Yep. Absolutely. Illegals (from all countries) do not respect our laws. You may contend that they do, but fella, they're here ILLEGALLY, so your argument goes no further. Dead on arrival.

You talk to me of struggle... all I hear is blah blah blah. Immigrate LEGALLY. It ain't impossible. It's not cheap -- but not impossible. Also, it's probably really hard if you're just here to collect a welfare check as many illegals (from all countries) are doing right now (before you start in on me, think of the word many and the fact that it defies definition, I haven't researched this, but the statistics from admittedly questionable sources do tell me that there are a sizable number of illegals receiving TANF, WIC, etc.).

Yes, immigrant labor is needed. Is amnesty the answer? Perhaps qualified amnesty. Blanket amnesty to any 'ol illegal immigrant? Nope. I don't want criminals given amnesty -- if you have a felony from your home country? Get the hell out. If your work history is full of large gaps? Gone. You've failed to pay income tax the entire time you've been here? Pay it back with interest and penalties... then we can talk.

As for Spain... their wealth has very little to do with immigrants (I've actually been to Spain in the last few years). Their new wealth has EVERYTHING to do with EU subsidies. The main EU countries spend millions of dollars *every day* bolstering Spain's and Portugal's economies.

Now.. why do most people associate Mexicans with illegal immigration... is it because they're racists? Perhaps some are. The large majority? ehh... I can't prove it, but I really doubt it. Could the reason be... maybe... that the VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE FROM MEXICO????? According to the Pew Hispanic Center, 81 percent of illegals are from Mexico... so if we were to pick on one country who contributes to this "problem," perhaps Mexico ought to be the first to draw our ire?? naahh.... that's just too darn logical. Definitely racists..

bombermwc
09-06-2007, 07:47 AM
I'm with midtowner here. Either immigrate legally or get the hell out. Crossing the border illegal to me means that you forfeit any and all rights to any services we provide. Schools/health/police/fire/etc. Why should i continue to pay taxes that help people that don't contribute to the pool?

I have aboslutely no problem whatsoever with immigrants. If I did, I would be stupid because look around the room you are in right now, chances are an immigrant is in there too. What I have a problem with is illegals. You want to come here, fine great more power to you we'd love to have you, but do it effing legally!!!!!

okcitian
09-06-2007, 02:16 PM
Immigrate LEGALLY. It ain't impossible. It's not cheap -- but not impossible.

The U.S. has its own right to allow people to come via visa on a country by country basis, there's no visas needed for those from developed countries yet for a friend that I have in Mexico, she wanted to visit Miami for a week but was denied since "she makes too much money"


Yes, immigrant labor is needed. Is amnesty the answer? Perhaps qualified amnesty.

I agree with you here. We need skilled labor. I remember part of a proposal for amnesty was given a point system by the amount of skills an immigrant has to live in the U.S.


As for Spain... their wealth has very little to do with immigrants (I've actually been to Spain in the last few years). Their new wealth has EVERYTHING to do with EU subsidies.

I would say it would mainly have to be EU subsidies yet Spain will start to see decreases in thier workforce for Spanish citizens, which is why Spain is giving thosands of Euros if a Spanish couple have a kid. Immigration has been needed in Spain for the past 5 years and is the second most immigrant country in the world next the U.S.

One note to add, If I could find the article i'll post it, but immigration (legal or illegal) has been slowing down from Mexico (although its still significant) in part since the economy is doing better. Remember there are regional disparities in the country so lets say, in Mexico City the per capita is around $21,000 (not nominal) yet other stayes like Guerrero is around $5,000 (not nominal either). Most Mexican immigrants are from the poorest and most rural parts of the country, yet there are those who are the urban poor and middle class as well.

soonerguru
09-06-2007, 02:24 PM
It's the corporations, and it's happened in this country since forever. This is not a new development.

It's just a good distraction to keep the real problems we face as a country, which are much worse, out of the news.

Plus, it appeals to people's need to have an enemy to be mad at, often somewhat of a different race or ethnicity.

Meanwhile, the people who run our economy and every Chamber of Commerce from coast to coast exploit the cheap labor.

Notice how no one goes after them?

Does anyone blame some poor schlump for wanting to take any job he can to better his life? Of course not.

ANY American, if roles were reversed, would do the same. The most important think to do is take care of your family, and if I ran out of options in this country and could improve life for my family illegally elsewhere, I would do it immediately.

soonerguru
09-06-2007, 02:29 PM
Midtowner,

With the same admission, namely that I cannot quote the source, I've read that most illegals do not receive welfare, they live in a cash world, and are afraid of deportation, therefore they do not go after state support.

Moreover, none of these folks will ever get a penny of money they contribute to our system for social security.

They are actually paying into the state more than they are receiving.

Now, when it comes to getting car insurance? Uggh........Now that hacks me off.

Also, they show up at hospitals without insurance, which does affect us.

However, they work their tails off for next to nothing for the most part -- lacking work ethic is never a complaint about them -- and keep our big corporations nice and profitable.

Midtowner
09-06-2007, 03:53 PM
Lots of generalities there sooner. I doubt there are any statistics as to which and how many receive welfare money. I'm sure the government would be embarassed to have to tell us that statistic.

Assuming the number of illegals receiving welfare is about the same as it is for the rest of America, you're still talking about well over a million people at the welfare trough who ought not be receiving a dime. We're talking about millions of their kids in our school systems.

And yes, there are the hospitals, the car wrecks, the general lack of regard for the law.

While amnesty is not the answer, I do like the concept of a guest worker program. It could work assuming the government really step up enforcement, institute a national ID program, require ALL employment and private contracting situations have national ID numbers verified, vigorously prosecute, fine and shut down employers who disregard those rules.

I do think there's a middle ground, but it sure as heck does not start at rewarding lawless behavior.

bombermwc
09-07-2007, 07:28 AM
And what about schools? The children that come across go to our schools, yet don't pay the taxes they help fund those schools. You could theoretically have an elementary school in a high immigration area that is fully staffed, but yet receives no money from it's residents. They aren't paying income tax because they don't have a SSN, so it's not going into the pot...ie a cash paycheck. Property tax...maybe, but more likely a renter. So image then how we all have to pick up the slack there for school systems that are already at the bottom of the barrel in funding. Not to mention that many of the parents don't speak English, so the teachers have to rely on the kids to serve as interpreters. Try having a discussion with a parent on why their child is in trouble when the child controls what you are saying!!!!

Midtowner
09-07-2007, 07:35 AM
It's not that renters = no property taxes (the landlord pays that). It's that generally, illegals live in very high-density settings (lots of folks under one roof) and in cheap housing, which means low property values. Talk about a perfect storm to drain needed money out of our school system.

Major
09-07-2007, 07:36 AM
The main issue for me is the attacks being thrown into the faces of Oklahomans from an outside national Christian group that we are racist and our law is an act of hate. There are attacking you. Isn't this unacceptable and borders on hate itself? Have you seen the billboards they put up in Tulsa? One says "Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate?" This is all part of a well orchestrated plan to shift the blame of our law onto the backs of Oklahomans by claiming its racist. Our law, HB 1804, is merely seeking some kind of accountability from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals who have invaded our state.

The main attacker is the National Coaltion of Latino Clergy whose president is well connected to the White House. If you find this offensive I urged you to call the White House at 202 456-1111 and complain. You will actually get a live person.

In the end, the upcoming lawsuit will answer a simple question. Does Oklahoma have the right to protect its own borders from the invasion of illegal foreign nationals?

No doubt you heard about the large number of illegals picked up in OKC last weekend. They were not all from Meixco. Quite the contrary. We have a problem, folks.

If illegal foreign nationals end up having more rights than legal citizens, then our country as we know it is over. What is the point of being a citizen?

Where are all the young people who are willing to take a stand for Oklahoma and its sovereignty? Where's the drive? Where's the passion?

soonerguru
09-07-2007, 09:21 AM
The children that come across go to our schools, yet don't pay the taxes they help fund those schools.

Schools are paid for with property tax. Renters get property tax passed along to them by property owners when they pay their rent. If they're homeowners, then they're directly paying property taxes.

dalelakin
09-07-2007, 09:00 PM
Gloom and doom...

As I said before, I don't expect these laws to work because they're preempted by federal law.

Don't Sanctuary Cities do the same?

Oh GAWD the Smell!
09-08-2007, 12:25 AM
The main issue for me is the attacks being thrown into the faces of Oklahomans from an outside national Christian group that we are racist and our law is an act of hate. There are attacking you. Isn't this unacceptable and borders on hate itself? Have you seen the billboards they put up in Tulsa? One says "Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate?" This is all part of a well orchestrated plan to shift the blame of our law onto the backs of Oklahomans by claiming its racist. Our law, HB 1804, is merely seeking some kind of accountability from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals who have invaded our state.

The main attacker is the National Coaltion of Latino Clergy whose president is well connected to the White House. If you find this offensive I urged you to call the White House at 202 456-1111 and complain. You will actually get a live person.

In the end, the upcoming lawsuit will answer a simple question. Does Oklahoma have the right to protect its own borders from the invasion of illegal foreign nationals?

No doubt you heard about the large number of illegals picked up in OKC last weekend. They were not all from Meixco. Quite the contrary. We have a problem, folks.

If illegal foreign nationals end up having more rights than legal citizens, then our country as we know it is over. What is the point of being a citizen?

Where are all the young people who are willing to take a stand for Oklahoma and its sovereignty? Where's the drive? Where's the passion?


Well...If others are outside looking in, and saying "racist", maybe it's time to look at it again with fresh and pragmatic eyes before screaming and crying "ZOMG!!!000!!!!!111ONeBBQ INVASION!"

There's no invasion. It's people looking for a better life. If they could come here legally, I'm sure they would. They'd make more money that way, and not have to hide from everybody.

I'm 10x more worried about 100 other things.

Oklahoma is sovereign? WOW...And here I was thinking that we were part of the U.S.A.

Oh, and I think that the young people are a bit more tolerant of people that weren't born here and don't blame the Mexicans for their problems.

Midtowner
09-08-2007, 12:36 AM
Don't Sanctuary Cities do the same?

Nope. Municipal law is always preempted by state law. If the state law is made so as to govern that entire area of the law, the muni code has no value.

-- now.. whether or not the police in that city have a policy of enforcing the state's law is another thing entirely. The state could always use its own law enforcement organizations to enforce that law, but it can't really compel the city to do anything which is really within the city's discretion.

The issue here is not going to be whether or not Oklahoma can enforce its own borders, etc. Again, I haven't read a word on the case, but I imagine the best claim against the state law is that it's preempted by federal law.

-- and if that's so, the state law is invalid.

Major
09-15-2007, 11:59 AM
I completely disagree with the poster who said there are 100 other things more important to worry about. Could you name just 10 for me? that threaten our country's economic or our safety on par with an illegal invasion?

The invasion of tens of millions illegal foreign nationals who have entered our country is a serious problem. It is talked about on the evening news nearly every night. Where have you been?

This issues, this invasion, will destroy our country if left unchecked. There is amply evidence that many of millions of Latinos who have been coming here do not want to assimilate. Its part of a national movement call Aztlan that has been growing since the 60s. Again where have you been? Haven't you noticed their in-your-face attitude? What about their belief that they have a right to be here just a much as a legal citizen does? What point is it to be a citizen???

You are worrying me a little bit here.

okcitian
09-26-2007, 11:46 AM
This issues, this invasion, will destroy our country if left unchecked. There is amply evidence that many of millions of Latinos who have been coming here do not want to assimilate. Its part of a national movement call Aztlan that has been growing since the 60s. Again where have you been? Haven't you noticed their in-your-face attitude? What about their belief that they have a right to be here just a much as a legal citizen does? What point is it to be a citizen???


Have you ever traveled outside of the country at all? Seriously, I have friends in Mexico who are far more sophisticated than thier American counterparts and they are also americanized. Mexico is becoming vastly Americanized just as it has spread to Canadian Cities and European cities in the past. Heck i've traveled to Europe and seen how the world is shrinking. Yet most illegals or Mexican immigrants for that matter are less Americanized yet they mostly assimilate into our society, It DOES take time from the language barrier to disappear since most of them didn't have a sufficient education in Spanish grammar to learn another lanugage.

My mom is from Mexico and moved here already Americanized, learned English in 6 months and didn't have to move here for a better life since she already made it in Mexico. She definately is Americanized and has respect for this country. She already listened to mostly American Music before she moved here. And understood American humor after many years of living here.

OK AZATLAN, are you seriously kidding me, I doubt that would ever happen. I actually realistically see Mexico moving up the social ladder as a country but not Azatlan. You don't see terroists from Mexico coming in our country and invading with mass terror devices.

I do believe that something has to be done for easier route yet safe route to legality or citizenship.

Major
10-07-2007, 03:59 PM
Yes, I have traveled quite a bit. I use to live in Brazil for a number of years, been to Europe and Mexico. What was your point?

Found this most interesting:

ACTION ALERT: Charges of Ethnic Cleansing in Tulsa by Latino Leader

In an October 4th Presidential Bulletin, Rev. Miguel Rivera, President of the National Coalition of Latino Clergy and member of President Bush's White House Immigration Reform Coalition, said that within hours a lawsuit to defeat Oklahoma's anti-illegal foreign national law will be filed. He also said the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund will jointly contribute their legal support. In a translated version of the bulletin, Rivera makes the deeply disturbing claim that ethnic cleansing is taking place in Tulsa.

zTruth : ACTION ALERT: Charges of Ethnic Cleansing in Tulsa by Latino Leader (http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2007/10/charges-of-ethn.html)

PennyQuilts
10-07-2007, 05:26 PM
Just want to point out that the illegal immigration problem is not just about Oklahomans being racist and that this is not just about "Mexicans." In Northern Virginia, the county I live in is utterly swamped with illegal aliens, primarily from Central America. The court system, social services and schools are in real trouble and the County is trying to work on ways to arrest illegals and turn them over to ICE. Percentage wise, there really aren't that many Mexicans in this area compared to the other countries of origin. We mainly get folks from El Salvador and Guatemala. I used to be able to get in and out of court in an hour (I'm a child advocate). Now, I have to frequently set aside the better part of a day because they don't have enough translators. That hits me directly in the paycheck and it means that my other clients, primarily abused children, don't get the attention they deserve because I am sitting around court twittling my thumbs waiting for a case to be called instead of visiting them at school or at home, or arranging to get services they might need. I know a lot of defense counsel who no longer take court appointed work because they can't afford to spend three hours waiting on an interpreter to speak to their clients in jail followed by numerous court appearances (for a $120.00 flat fee). The illegals frequently don't have drivers licenses and forget about insurance. If you get hit by one, they take off. This is not urban legend - I work with the courts and cops. The LEGAL immigrants, hispanic or otherwise, aren't the ones anyone around here is worried about. They tend to work hard, respect the law and want to make a good life for themselves. And they also carry car insurance, as a rule. They are welcomed and I always get a warm fuzzy when my clients' parents proudly tell me they have become a citizen. When I hear someone speaking English with a heavy spanish accent, my first thought is GOOD FOR YOU! You are doing your best to learn the language and I will do my best to be patient to help you learn. Trying to say that anyone who is opposed to illegals is a racist is insulting and inaccurate. I resent reading comments that claim people like me, without knowing me, are racist because we are opposed to illegal immigration, don't want to encourage it, and believe the law should be enforced to stop it.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
10-07-2007, 06:55 PM
I don't mind the Mexicans so much...You know who really burns my ass?

The freakin' DUTCH.

GOD, I just want them all to stay in their own country and never show their faces here ever again.

*shudders*

I HATE THEM.

dismayed
10-07-2007, 10:06 PM
Their wooden shoes and accordion music will be the destruction of America.

PUGalicious
10-08-2007, 04:50 AM
I don't mind the Mexicans so much...You know who really burns my ass?

The freakin' DUTCH.

GOD, I just want them all to stay in their own country and never show their faces here ever again.

*shudders*

I HATE THEM.
I agree... There are two things I despise: intolerant people and the Dutch!

Karried
10-08-2007, 07:17 AM
ahhh the Dutch.

If I have to see one more Tulip, I'll fling myself off the nearest cliff!

Oh GAWD the Smell!
10-08-2007, 07:38 AM
I'm glad you people smell what I'm steppin' in.

Stoopid people with their social tolerances...What are they thinking?

Pffft.

Major
10-15-2007, 07:54 PM
"The sheriff of Tulsa County is guilty of ethnic cleansing and I can tell you very clear, that we will continue pursuing to find the reasons why these people have committed these atrocities against our Latino community,” said Rev. Miguel Rivera with the National Coalition of Latino Clergy."

This so-called Christian group filed their lawsuit today. If they win the lawsuit, these illegal foreign nationals will have more power that you, the citizens of Oklahoma. As I see it our country, as we know it, will be over.

I sure hope this gets some people's attention.

Easy180
10-15-2007, 08:18 PM
I
The invasion of tens of millions illegal foreign nationals who have entered our country is a serious problem. It is talked about on the evening news nearly every night. Where have you been?



Just cause Lou Dobbs uses the issue to make ratings off of rich old white people who are absolutely dying for an excuse to get upset over anything doesn't make it a country killer

Hope you enjoy your home they built for you and the fruit juices you drink Major

And don't get me started on the Dutch...Pretty sure I saw one push a 4 year old girl down for a Hannah Montana ticket

Architect2010
10-15-2007, 08:34 PM
ughhhh....
i hate when ppl start tlking about how that if we didnt have all
those illegals, than we wouldnt get anything done.
yes we would.
Im pretty sure my house would still be here.
Drinks???? Yes Illegals arent gonna make or break say.... minute maid.
Even without illegals, we would still have juice.... lol
still have houses.
Houses would still be built
albeit on a smaller scale, since they do make up a large portion of the population....
and i have no problem with illegals, just so you know...=]
Its just their srupid children, that are all involved in gangs and
all that crap.... grrrrrr. Most of them dont care.... the older illegals
are pretty gudd at what they do, but their children are.... i dunno.

Easy180
10-15-2007, 08:44 PM
Well your poster name is Architect...You willing to change it to fruit picker2010, landscaper2010,kitchen worker2010 or construction2010?

White, Black and Asian parents birthed just as much of a percentage of worthless kids if not more

Architect2010
10-15-2007, 10:03 PM
ahhh...
Im not much into architecture anymore....
im thinking about photography, or game design, web design, remodeling.
i do construction and remodeling with my dad....
well, you cannot tell me that there are larger percentage of Asian and White Gangsters or low scoring students is more than other races....
my school for example....
about 30 percent white, 30 percent black, 30 percent hipanic, 2 asian, and like 4 percent native american....
you can look at the test scores....
asians, and native americans score way way higher and they're minorities, and white also scores much higher about the same as asian.
i think i would know. im around them everyday.

Im not pinpointing any race out.
all i said was i hate ppl bring up the look who built that building that u use
or the roads.....
if it wasnt illegals doing it, other ppl would be doing it....
hello???

PennyQuilts
10-16-2007, 04:19 AM
If it turns out (after we don't have illegals to do certain jobs) that we really suffer as a nation, I've no doubt there would be a groundswell of public support for some sort of legal, controlled way to have guest workers or something of that ilk. Absent proof of that, I feel like we are simply being subjected to just scare tactics.

I've posted before that I really get queasy at the notion of bringing in a servant class to do jobs we allegedly won't do. Last I checked, that is not what we do in America. This is supposed to be the land of opportunity. People shouldn't be here unless if the legal and controlled, and if they are here legally, they shouldn't be expected to "know their place" and do only menial jobs.

CuatrodeMayo
10-16-2007, 07:59 AM
ahhh...
Im not much into architecture anymore....
im thinking about photography, or game design, web design, remodeling.
i do construction and remodeling with my dad....
well, you cannot tell me that there are larger percentage of Asian and White Gangsters or low scoring students is more than other races....
my school for example....
about 30 percent white, 30 percent black, 30 percent hipanic, 2 asian, and like 4 percent native american....
you can look at the test scores....
asians, and native americans score way way higher and they're minorities, and white also scores much higher about the same as asian.
i think i would know. im around them everyday.

Im not pinpointing any race out.
all i said was i hate ppl bring up the look who built that building that u use
or the roads.....
if it wasnt illegals doing it, other ppl would be doing it....
hello???

Off Topic:

2010:

Don't give up on Architecture...it is the gateway design education that will enable you to do all of the above. Architecture will open nearly every design door you want. I graduate in May and this is the best thing. as a designer, I have ever done.

Resume topic.

Architect2010
10-16-2007, 01:54 PM
thanx...
i dunno.
i still have a few years b4 my college years start, so I have time
Im still really interested, but i want to have backup plans too...

but yeah, without illegals, of course we would lose a large portion of jobs,
a lot of smaller companies would lose their business and such....

illegals dont really bother me tho....
its just most of them dont really care or bother
to assimilate, learn customs and want to get an education
but the portion do, i think they're great and its really good inspiration...

But i guess im not old enuf to really have a say in all this, but ill put my opinion in. =]

Superhyper
10-16-2007, 07:07 PM
God save us all from Clogging! Seriously though people, grow up. It is amazing to me that people who benefit from one of the best economies in the world can do nothing but bitch and complain about those who are helping to keep that economy as strong as it is. If we lose our cheap immigrant work force, China eats us alive, in a nutshell. Either the cheap jobs are here, where we at least keep some of the revenue flow from them, or they go somewhere else. Xenophobia and ignorance won't stop wal-mart from switching away from American suppliers as prices go up. Always Low Prices = Cheap Labor.

Easy180
10-16-2007, 07:19 PM
ahhh...
Im not much into architecture anymore....
im thinking about photography, or game design, web design, remodeling.
i do construction and remodeling with my dad....
well, you cannot tell me that there are larger percentage of Asian and White Gangsters or low scoring students is more than other races....
my school for example....
about 30 percent white, 30 percent black, 30 percent hipanic, 2 asian, and like 4 percent native american....
you can look at the test scores....
asians, and native americans score way way higher and they're minorities, and white also scores much higher about the same as asian.
i think i would know. im around them everyday.

Im not pinpointing any race out.
all i said was i hate ppl bring up the look who built that building that u use
or the roads.....
if it wasnt illegals doing it, other ppl would be doing it....
hello???

Other than you right?...There are hundreds of thousands of people wishing they could get their hands on the extreme low pay - hard working jobs these immigrants do?

Not as if you or I are any different than our fellow Americans architecture....You scoff at doing those jobs and so does the rest of Americans

Architect2010
10-16-2007, 07:33 PM
did you not just read it???
scroll up and read the 4th line.
"I do Construction and remodeling with my dad."
labor. low pay. long hours. HARD WORK.
I don't scoff at them... ^^^^^ ......=/

Easy180
10-16-2007, 07:53 PM
did you not just read it???
scroll up and read the 4th line.
"I do Construction and remodeling with my dad."
labor. low pay. long hours. HARD WORK.
I don't scoff at them... ^^^^^ ......=/

Pretty sure your low pay isn't similar at all to their low pay architect

Architect2010
10-16-2007, 09:30 PM
yeah probably....
but then there are tons of illegals that
get paid way more than me too...
but this has nothing to do with the fact that they
get paid low...
this is what im saying....

you said, "Hope you enjoy your home they built for you and the fruit juices you drink Major"

but they arent the only ones that build houses.
and if they dont build houses, everythings not gonna stop.
there other ppl that will take their place. (legals)
and the building of houses and the production of juice(=])
will continue without them. They arent the only ones that
know how to work.
thats my opinion you know?

Midtowner
10-16-2007, 10:20 PM
I agree with what Mr. 2010 is saying. I find the slogan "they do jobs Americans won't do" to be insulting. Americans will do the work if it's offered at a fair price. Perhaps the cost of doing business will go up. Perhaps buildings will cost a little more.

In the long run, that is far cheaper for society than the burden that illegals place upon the education system, social services, the courts, the penal system, hospitals and the rest of society at large.

While many illegals work hard, there are still others who bring with them nothing more than crime, drugs and a need for welfare.

I agree with what other are saying here regarding the demand for cheap labor. I think there can be a win-win.

It all starts with a secure border. Without that, any immigration policy will be subverted by a steady stream of off-the-books immigrants. Solve that problem and a meaningful guest worker program can be readily implemented. Until such time, such reforms are symbolic at best.

SoonerDave
10-18-2007, 08:09 AM
To use the notion that illegals provide cheap labor, so we should let 'em all in, is a classic ends-justifying-the-means rationalization.

Despite our sophisticated, contemporary, hip rhetoric that seat-of-the-pants, feel-good goverment is the way to go, we always have been and always will be a nation of laws, not men. Men can always come up with a justification not to do the right thing. The law keeps us from burning ourselves alive, because it forces deliberation and thought. Newsbites and "feeling" do the opposite.

The problem is simple, really. Immigrants that are here legally have carte blanche to operate within the context of what the law allows them. Individuals here illegally, from whatever nation, for whatever reason, have no such rights. Period.

The left, in their typical fashion, has turned this into an ad hominem attack under the guise of "racism" and "intolerance," which is laughably erroneous, but not totally unexpected. They have engendered the notion of entitlement to millions of Americans, so it is not surprising that they would continue to do so to individuals who have not a shred of legal standing to be in the country.

I know, I can hear it now; I'm a "hater." I'm a "racist." I'm "intolerant." I'm "paranoid." I don't understand reasons a, b, and c why we "have" to ignore the law, and manufacture new ones to excuse the fact that millions are here illegally to begin with.

Utter and unequivocal nonsense.

This nation welcomes anyone who desires to live in a free society, within the context of the laws that govern it. When you operate outside that law, you don't want to live in a free society, you want to operate within an anarchy of "whatever I want, whenever I want, because someone else told me I'm entitled to it."

And that very mentality, for the sake of the future of this country, has to stop.

-soonerdave

Major
11-09-2007, 03:34 PM
Who thinks this law will ultimately be defeated?


zTruth : HB 1804 Oklahoma's Fight To Protect Its Citizens (http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/oklahomas-fight-to-protec.html)

Oh GAWD the Smell!
11-09-2007, 03:51 PM
Who thinks this law will ultimately be defeated?


zTruth : HB 1804 Oklahoma's Fight To Protect Its Citizens (http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/oklahomas-fight-to-protec.html)

Oh crap...I clicked on that link before donning my tinfoil hat and it's infected me with the paranoia that it took me so long to get rid of after escaping from The John Birch Society's summer camp.







must...climb...bell....tower...






Kenny....Rogers....Is....A....Communist...

Major
11-11-2007, 10:49 AM
Infected with cr**? If you took the time to read it, you would find most everything listed is what proponents or opponents of the law have said in the press. It's merely a listing of stuff as it happens with links to the source.

Speaking of cr**, it is quite amazing to see how much of it is dished out by the supporters of illegal foreign nationals. They actually belive they have as much rights as citizens! Who knows in the end they may prove to be more powerful that citizens and their law.

I would venture to say that the majority of us in Oklahoma don't like being bullied by outsiders who claim we are racist.

The law doesn't care what race you - only if you are here legally or not.

Do you have a problem with that?

Easy180
11-11-2007, 11:36 AM
"The citizens, law enforcement and the government of Oklahoma. And to some extend the illegals who think they can run over us."

They are living large for sure...The job I landed a couple months back in banking I swear I was up against no less than 50 illegal immigrants

I think it was only because I was referred by someone that I landed it...It will only get worse over time...We will all have to go to Mexico to find jobs

Oh GAWD the Smell!
11-11-2007, 02:41 PM
Speaking of cr**, it is quite amazing to see how much of it is dished out by the supporters of illegal foreign nationals. They actually belive they have as much rights as citizens! Who knows in the end they may prove to be more powerful that citizens and their law.

I would venture to say that the majority of us in Oklahoma don't like being bullied by outsiders who claim we are racist.

The law doesn't care what race you - only if you are here legally or not.

Do you have a problem with that?

lol..."Do you have a problem with that?"...I picture a snotty kid chesting up to another when I read that. Bullies indeed.

I don't think many people "support" illegal foreign nationals or think they should have equal rights. All I see is a bunch of political posturing and propaganda from both sides of an issue that smacks of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" or as I like to say "pay no attention to health care, Social Security, the war in Iraq, the preparation for war in Iran, the incompetence in DC, the incompetence in NOLA, or the economy...Pay attention to the brown people because they're brown and bad and this is a wedge issue that will make people vote for me and ignore my actual opinions and track record"...And the media is just eating it up because it's controversial.

PennyQuilts
11-11-2007, 05:12 PM
All I see is a bunch of political posturing and propaganda from both sides of an issue that smacks of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" or as I like to say "pay no attention to health care, Social Security, the war in Iraq, the preparation for war in Iran, the incompetence in DC, the incompetence in NOLA, or the economy...Pay attention to the brown people because they're brown and bad and this is a wedge issue that will make people vote for me and ignore my actual opinions and track record"...And the media is just eating it up because it's controversial.

What a simplistic attack on your fellow citizens' ethics and ability to discern legitimate issues. To argue that I am so prejudiced against latinos that I would overlook other important issues is astonishingly irrational since the negative results of unchecked illegal immigration are so apparent. Or perhaps that is not what you intended to say? Perhaps you only meant "stupid" citizens who are going to give their vote to the one who most espouses hate?

Personally, I think this is one issue that does not lend itself to attempts to shame people into silence. You might just as well argue that people who believe murder should be illegal lack compassion.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
11-12-2007, 08:51 AM
What a simplistic attack on your fellow citizens' ethics and ability to discern legitimate issues. To argue that I am so prejudiced against latinos that I would overlook other important issues is astonishingly irrational since the negative results of unchecked illegal immigration are so apparent. Or perhaps that is not what you intended to say? Perhaps you only meant "stupid" citizens who are going to give their vote to the one who most espouses hate?

Personally, I think this is one issue that does not lend itself to attempts to shame people into silence. You might just as well argue that people who believe murder should be illegal lack compassion.

I'm against illegal immigration. I don't think they should be allowed to stay as long as they're off the books. I also believe that it should be easier for them to come here (or stay here) legally because they obviously fill a need in the work force. But most of the people I've met get fired up over this "crisis", get fired up for EXACTLY the reason I highlighted in your post. The news told them that the Mexicans were stealing their jobs and making them pay more for everything. Just like the news told them that the Bird Flu is going to wipe out half the world, terrorists were going to set off dirty bombs all over the country (they went on and on about this for 6 months), Christians are persecuted, and Paris Hilton matters. None of which is true. It just makes news more exciting to say it. Celebrities are important and xenophobia is FUN! AMERICA!

I also love how every time I open my mouth about it, I'm a bully or I'm attempting to shame somebody into silence...Just like what you're doing to me. Nice irony there.

PennyQuilts
11-12-2007, 11:09 AM
I'm not trying to shame you into silence. Where did that come from? I just wish people would stop attributing motives to my actions/opinions based on what THEY bring to the table.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
11-12-2007, 02:59 PM
I'm not trying to shame you into silence. Where did that come from? I just wish people would stop attributing motives to my actions/opinions based on what THEY bring to the table.

And I'm not trying to shame you into it, so don't accuse me of it. Pot, meet kettle.

Midtowner
11-12-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm not trying to shame you into silence. Where did that come from? I just wish people would stop attributing motives to my actions/opinions based on what THEY bring to the table.

Who is they?

PennyQuilts
11-12-2007, 05:39 PM
In this context, "they" are folk who make pronoucements about others' morality and motives based not upon what others actually say, believe or do, but by what "they" believe is "actually" going on as a result of their independent bias, opinions and beliefs, and their personal experiences that they subjectively perceive as being similar.

It amounts to taking an us (good) vs. them (bad) attitude and not really listening once "they" have decided that others are on the "wrong" side of an issue.

Midtowner
11-13-2007, 07:43 AM
In this context, "they" are folk who make pronoucements about others' morality and motives based not upon what others actually say, believe or do, but by what "they" believe is "actually" going on as a result of their independent bias, opinions and beliefs, and their personal experiences that they subjectively perceive as being similar.

It amounts to taking an us (good) vs. them (bad) attitude and not really listening once "they" have decided that others are on the "wrong" side of an issue.

Thanks for that.

Major
12-19-2007, 12:55 PM
Well, for the 2nd time the lawsuit filed against HB 1804 has been rejected by Judge Payne in Tulsa.

I read that Rev. Miguel Rivera is planning to file an appeal in Denver. I think all it will take is to get it before a liberal judge to stop the law in its tracks.

Do I have a point here or not?

Oh GAWD the Smell!
12-19-2007, 02:14 PM
We should send all the liberals to Mexico with them!

Misty
12-19-2007, 02:19 PM
We should send all the liberals to Mexico with them!

Maybe I'll go too. I bet I can get a drivers license or ID card issued easier there. Thanks HB 1804. I'll be spending the weekend digging up every legal document I have that shows I exist. Thanks.....thanks a lot.