Shannon Sharpton
GUTHRIE - State Representative Jason Murphey (R-Guthrie) made sure that he was representing House District 31 citizens by being present to vote in all but four roll call votes during the 2007 legislative session. The freshman Republican voted in 1318 out of 1322 roll call votes or 99.69% of the time.

"One of my goals of this session was to be present for as many roll call votes as possible. I want to demonstrate to the voters that I am taking their trust seriously," Murphey said. Murphey explained that his four missed votes appear to have been mostly procedural votes meaning Murphey voted on all substantive issues.

Murphey ranked second in the House of Representatives for being present during votes as only Sand Springs Republican Rex Ducan missed fewer votes.

Eh.. he's a home scool prison guard with no college degree.

-- oh wait.. he took some online correspondence course or something.

I'm not very impressed. Although he shows up to things, his writing shows that he has a very elementary understanding of the issues, something that won't be getting any better.

Full disclosure -- I'm friends with his general election opponent from last year :)

Eh.. he's a home scool prison guard with no college degree.




The guy that sits next to me at work graduated HS at the last of his class, has never taken a single college course, and can't spell worth a damn. He's also probably the smartest person in the building. There's nothing he can't do with Windows or Unix servers, not to mention his guru status in the database area. The woman that sits down the way from us has a degree in CS from OU and can't send an email with an attachment. It ticks me off when people act like education has f***all to do with how smart somebody is.

Or people that care where you graduated from. Does it matter if I went to SDSU? Or should I do better if I went to OU?

MADNESS I TELLS YA!

Ahhh Midtowner, where have you been all my life? I feel so alone sometimes on the blogs with my huge mistrust and dislike of all things Murphey.

My full disclosure is that I worked on Depue's campaign. Plus I watched Murphey on the Guthrie city council and knew he would be the train wreck he is up at the capital.

I don't have a problem with his lack of formal education, my problem with homeschooling is, and is hugely apparent when it comes to Murphey, is the zero social skills. I believe his lack of understanding is because he's a kindergartener, 5 years old on the playground, just now learning how to interact with others. His grand standing in the first months with the wage reduction bill (that never made it out of committee) showed he truly had no idea of how to get along with your peers.

I understand he is a Christian, although I do not know what church he attends, I pray for good advisers to surround him, so far that doesn't seem to have happened yet.

Yeah, I work next door to Cook (the guy who I believe Depue eventually endorsed). So I heard it all.

While Murphy has mastered the art of self-promotion, he's failed to actually do a single thing for Guthrie since being elected.

While Murphy has mastered the art of self-promotion, he's failed to actually do a single thing for Guthrie since being elected.

The way I have it figured, the less any politician does to "Help" me these days, the better off I am.

The way I have it figured, the less any politician does to "Help" me these days, the better off I am.

True enough :)

Ahhh Midtowner, where have you been all my life? I feel so alone sometimes on the blogs with my huge mistrust and dislike of all things Murphey.

My full disclosure is that I worked on Depue's campaign. Plus I watched Murphey on the Guthrie city council and knew he would be the train wreck he is up at the capital.

At least Murphey seems to be the lesser of 2 Evils. Depue seemed a bit shady in the first campaign.



I don't have a problem with his lack of formal education, my problem with homeschooling is .... the zero social skills.

I can understand how you might think that if you have met the weird ones, but studies show differently:
Homeschooling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling)
HSLDA | Homeschooling Grows Up: Socialization (http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/Socialization.asp)
Homeschooling Has Social Advantage - William R. Mattox Jr. (http://www.cambridgestudycenter.com/artilces/Mattox1.htm)

I'm not a fan of homeschooling...Not because of the social aspects

Just think teaching should be left to the professionals and not those who just believe they are educated enough to answer questions ACCURATELY

Sally...."Mom...Can you help me with this Geometry proof?"

Mom..."Let me look up the step by step answer....What the heck....Bunch of jibberish....Just write down what it says here and let's move on....People's Court is on in 15" :tiphat:

Cuatro, the Wiki article is more of a persuasive piece. Keep in mind that the article is probably written by a homeschool textbook maker or someone like that. Other than that, you cite two homeschool sites. OF COURSE they're going to come down in favor of homeschooling.

I've known several homeschool kids in my time. Their education ranged from being on-par with mine to being completely inadequate and functionally illiterate.

While figures exist which show that the average homeschooler taking the ACT scores better than his public school counterpart, however, in Oklahoma, 69% of all high school graduates take the ACT.

There is scant evidence as to the actual number of high school home school graduates in Oklahoma. CHEF, a Christian-based group estimates the number of Oklahoma home school families at 2,000. At least anecdotally, I have observed homeschool families to be on average larger than average. I think it would be safe to assume that the average homeschool family might have 2.5 kids on average (and yes, I have nothing to base that assumption on). So that would mean that in Oklahoma, it might be safe to say that there are 5,000 kids in homeschool at this very moment, which probably a very conservative estimate.

The data which we DO have is that 183 homeschool kids took the ACT last year in Oklahoma. If we assume that homeschool kids are evenly distributed by grade level, that means that 416 kids should have graduated last semester. 183 is of course less than half.

I know I'm assuming a lot, but none of these homeschool sites seem to want to provide a total picture -- just what percentage of homeschool kids do take the ACT/SAT? What percentage are college bound? My highly speculative numbers would lead us to believe that less than half end up even taking the entrance test for college. This at least confirms what I have seen personally -- that homeschooling is very hit or miss. Some kids get great educations from their parents while many others are left to "unschooling" or other ineffective flower-power B.S. types of curricula.

At any rate, all of the sites you list cite all of these favorable statistics while avoiding things which might reflect poorly on homeschooling. This is not unexpected from sites which are supposed to persuade unbelievers and to assuage the fears of parents who are considering buying the homeschool product. I can't think why none of these sites would want to tell us just how many kids are involved in the homeschool program unless, of course, they were trying to hide something.

-- I know my argument assumes a lot, but by leaving out crucial data, so does every article you cited. When there are such gaping holes in material which is written to persuade, it's a pretty safe assumption that the material left out was harmful to the case which the writer was attempting to prove.

Homeschooling can be hit or miss...just like nearly every education system.

I wasn't even making a point for academic performance. I pointed out that homeschoolers are on average, as socially adept as anyone.

If you want to dispute the studies, please feel free to find information supporting your position.

Actually, I was pointing out that the statistics which you cited (or would have cited had you bothered to do the research) don't really support the position you seem to be adopting primarily because those statistics are misleading and incomplete.

Since there aren't really any anti-homeschool groups, I doubt anyone has done the math. I felt my estimates were highly conservative.

At any rate, as long as we're talking about social skills, studies, etc., find some source which qualifies as at least somewhat neutral to hang your hat on next time.

I'm no slacker...no I am a slacker. I apologise for not completely suspending my daily activities to exhaustivly research homeschooling to refute some guy on the internet.

EPAA Vol. 7 No. 8 Rudner: Home School Students, 1998 (http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/)

A 10 year old study which is also conspicuously missing the data I keep pointing out that no one seems to want to talk about. You seemed to be insistent that someone provide something more than anecdotal evidence of their positions, yet you don't seem to be willing to hold yourself to the same standard.

Apparently I'm not understanding what you want. What data? If is what you mention before, then I do not see how that relates to the arguement. Please enlighten me then maybe I can answer your question.

Apparently I'm not understanding what you want. What data? If is what you mention before, then I do not see how that relates to the arguement. Please enlighten me then maybe I can answer your question.

You say that home school kids do better academically than their public school peers. The numbers the studies you linked offered (or hell.. maybe I found them.. I don't know) offered statistics based on ACT/SAT scores which showed that the homeschool kids who took those tests did better than their public school counterparts.

In Oklahoma, 69% of graduating high school seniors took the ACT. I can't find a shred of data telling what percentage of home school kids did the same. My guesses based upon the incredibly sketchy data I was able to find (and believe me, I tried) suggest that far fewer home school kids take the ACT. Since none of the home school sites brag about the percentage of home school graduates who go on to college (which you'd think would be readily ascertainable data), one is led to believe that this is a stat they don't want you to know.

As I said, my best guess based on what I consider very conservative numbers tells me that far fewer homeschool kids are college bound, but maybe you can find otherwise?

If I had more time, I would ask around, but I don't. From what nearly every article, survey and whatever else I have read, homeschool students do better than public school students. And they are generally socially adjusted (which was my original point).

Whatever information is being "left out" I doubt would radically change the outcome of such studies. I would like to see that information as well, but I do not see it as a conspiracy of MULTIPLE sources.

Why would far fewer home school students not go to college when they seem to perform higher, on average than typical public school students? Rather than a normal spread of test scores, your claim would indicate that there are a large number of both above average students and below average students with very few average. The smart ones take the ACT and go to college and the "dumb" ones don't. The average ones do one or the other, but there are so few that it doesn't affect the average test scores of homeschoolers. That is specuation at best.

Your conjectured numbers are meaningless compared to what I have read over the course of the day. You are grasping at straws to disprove what is all but an established fact.

I'm guessing because no one trying to prove the greatness of homeschooling has bothered to publish figures they almost certainly have access to. Certainly it wouldn't be difficult to know how many home school students in Oklahoma finish the 12th grade as home school students?

I know the statistic as to whether graduates go on to college is something public schools track meticulously.

The fact is that these "multiple sources" are all very one-sided in that they are either persuasive articles (like all you posted) or they are studies commissioned or performed by special interest groups -- and I should say "study" -- and a 9-year old one at that.

When they all neglect to report something that would cripple their case if negative and bolster it if positive, it sort of clues us into what the case may be.

Well whenever you find some convincing data or "study" disproving what I have posted, please post it here.

Well whenever you find some convincing data or "study" disproving what I have posted, please post it here.

What I'm saying is that what you have posted proves nothing. So feel free to fill in those gaping holes :)

I would gladly address it, if data exists.

If it is such a "gaping" hole, then why has no one else bothered to fill it? Why can't you or I (I've been looking) find anything? I would think the NEA would be on that like a fat kid on a Twinkie. Apparently this must be a non-issue considering nobody is as concerned about it as you.

The NEA doesn't seem to concern themselves with the goings on of the home school world. They're much more concerned with the evils of charter schools, school choice, etc. -- things which actually affect their union's reach.

A search on their site turned up TWO references of the word "homeschool." One was a reference an article used, I didn't even bother to look at the other.

I could probably come up with the number in 1998. That article gives the number of kids participating in the sample versus the actual number of kids in the state who were in homeschool programs. Unfortunately, your article is essentially ancient history.

ETA: That table isn't what I thought it was, it was merely attempting to correct the fact that the sample showed over representation in some populations by reassigning weight.

The very best I could find was what Cathy Costello said here:

Holy Family School » News 9 hates homeschoolers (http://homeschool.gleeson.us/2005/08/27/news-9-hates-homeschoolers)

-- apparently, she's a homeschool parent. I guess that makes her somewhat of an in-the-know person. According to Cathy Costello, my guestimate was WAAAY off. She says there are approximately 20,000 homeschool kids in Oklahoma. If that's true, wow.. the number taking the ACT is abysmally low. Something doesn't jive. I don't know if Costello is just out to lunch, or if the figures I have are somehow flawed. If all are correct, it does paint a rather stark reality regarding homeschooling in Oklahoma (assuming even distribution among grade levels, etc.)

Of course, many parents don't want or expect their kids to go to college. If book learnin' ain't their thing, power to 'em.

Your point being...?

Like I said...a non-issue.

183 homeschool kids took the ACT in Oklahoma. There were 20,000 homeschoolers.

We're looking at around 10%-15% percent of homeschool kids even taking the test versus 69% of their public school counterparts. I've found the 20,000 number on other sites now including the above-mentioned Oklahoma Christian Home Schooling network site. Low range estimates say as low as 14,000.

I do think that's saying something -- in other words it's hit or miss.

Can I get a link to where you are getting 183?

EDIT: I actually know Cathy Costello thru some people...she's a little odd.

Geesh, sorry I missed all the fun.

I must disagree, and could you go into more detail as to why you felt Depue was "shady". If you are referring to all the mailings that surfaced right before the first vote when Depue was elected, I can say for a fact that Depue and his campaign had nothing to do with it, nor ever really knew who was behind it. Depue and his campaign was just as surprised as everyone else when they came out. Depue is a well respected pastor and as never been "shady", I would just like for you to explain please.

As for why I feel Jason Murphey is society inept, I attributed it to Homeschooling only because I knew one other guy like Murphey, was home schooled and acted just as childish. I should not have lumped them all together, I don't know that to be true for all, but from raising my own children, they were pretty clueless on how to interact with others until they entered a Mother's Day Program twice a week. In weeks, I watched them blossom and mature.

In addition, my perception of Murphey comes from years of watching him in local Guthrie politics as a city council member. He would cry at meetings, he would vote down free grant money for kids, he participated in violations of the open meeting act, his buddies (that used him like a puppet) were getting recalled, they quit and left him high and dry. Instead of facing a recall himself, he then left at the end of his term, he knew he could not win a reelection. There were so many childish episodes that occurred during that time, and it's safe to say he was a joke. The majority of Guthrie is still in shock that he won the House seat. If you look at the voting polls, he did poorly in Guthrie (where we knew him) and did great in south county who didn't have a clue who he was. The big change is that South Logan County's population has grown so much and coupled with a very low Guthrie voter turn out, He won. The perfect storm.

Well that's my 2 cents, and some change I guess.

Depue: Yea, my shady comments are because of the mailings. I receive one of those and was quite upset. Murphey claimed Depue knew about it. I don't know, nor will anybody probably, what happend. I seem to think Depue got in trouble with the Ethics Commission. I could be wrong because I can't find anything.

Homeschooling: Yea...stereotypes are hard to break. The few weird ones create the stereotype because they stick out like a sore thumb. The majority, the "normal" ones (and remember, "normal" is just a setting on the dishwasher), just blend in.

I gotta agree with Cuatro here. Homeschooling is hit or miss just like any other method of education. Midtowner you seem to be coming from a place of hostility and/or maybe jealousy toward homeschoolers as you are very defensive about it.

I've personally known homeschoolers who are National Merit Scholars and I've known homeschoolers who are very average. I've graduated (public school) with some of the most intelligent people I've ever met and I graduated with some real idiots. It's what works best for the individual. One isn't always better than the other.

As far as the social aspect goes, I've known several homeschoolers who are just as socially adept as anyone but I've also known homeschoolers who are quite wierd and exactly what people think of when they think of homeschoolers. On the other hand I went to a large public highschool (enrollment of about 1500 - 2000 students. This was 20 years ago when freshmen did not attend highschool but instead attended junior high) with a socially inept wierdo who murdered his parents in their sleep.

For the record I married a homeschooler who is a social butterfly and gets hit on just about everywhere she goes (And I'm not just saying that). So she totally blows away the homeschool stereotype. Our children, however, go to public school.

I remember reading in the paper a few years ago that OK had one of the highest SAT average scores. The reason is that most out of state schools require SAT and not ACT so the logic is only the kids going out of state are taking the SAT and these kids are typically more affluent, better educated etc. Not sure if this translates to home school as well but might explain some of the reasons that the home school ACT numbers are so low. I don't have time to look this up to be sure, just an idea.

I gotta agree with Cuatro here. Homeschooling is hit or miss just like any other method of education. Midtowner you seem to be coming from a place of hostility and/or maybe jealousy toward homeschoolers as you are very defensive about it.

Actually no, I'm just pointing out that the facts presented by pro-homeschool groups regarding academic achievement are quite skewed.

I found that 183 number on a pro-homeschool site a couple days ago. I'm shooting myself now for not linking it. But even if you double the number to correct for the SAT (which again would be generous) you're only looking at 30% max college bound as opposed to 69% from public schools.

All that I can come up with shows that homeschooling is more miss than hit.

For some kids it does seem to work better. For most? Probably not. It would be difficult to quantify what's going on with those other kids academically because obviously, their parents for whatever reason don't believe in testing and aren't submitting their kids for a college-bound curriculum.

It's of course impossible to know whether or not those kids are taking the GED, so whatever the "real facts" are, I'm not sure anyone knows/wants to know.

The majority of Guthrie is still in shock that he won the House seat. If you look at the voting polls, he did poorly in Guthrie (where we knew him) and did great in south county who didn't have a clue who he was. The big change is that South Logan County's population has grown so much and coupled with a very low Guthrie voter turn out, He won. The perfect storm.


Now Katt...please! although I cannot find it anywhere to confirm myself, if I remember right, Murphey won all but two of the precincts in Guthrie (the usual areas, read Demoncrat majority pockets).

You are once again letting your hate cloud your thinking.

Funny how the voters are stupid and surprised when it fits your agenda and smart and informed otherwise...:fighting3

Marko, you're wrong, I don't remember all the numbers, but I was at the Depue watch party and he had it won until two big precincts came in , in SLC. The turn out levels for that runoff were remarkably small for Guthrie and remarkably large for SLC, I'll hand it to Jason, he got out the vote. People in Guthrie thought there was no way Depue would lose, so they didn't bother to vote. That's my two cents. ( you may be thinking of the finial vote against Murphey and Cook)

I don't Hate, I strongly mistrust, based on past behavior. No clouds here.

That's right, it was the final vote between Murphey and Cook I am thinking about.

Regardless.....you sure seem to have a lot of "mistrust" for Murphy!?!?

Were you around or paying attention during his city council days?????
Councilman Stevens? 4 to3 votes? Recalls? Illegal Meetings?

I have no basis for mistrust AT ALL ! LOL

CLOUDED JUDGEMENT = OKIEKATT
This statement is OkieKatt to a ( T )
Funny how the voters are stupid and surprised when it fits your agenda and smart and informed otherwise...

It's a good thing for him that the Oklahoma Open Meetings Act doesn't apply to legislators!

Oh now come on, what is this all about. Did I miss some sort of breaking news or what?

I have clouded judgement? Really?
Couldn't be that someone has promised you an election Jman? Is it?

The water is so muddy even the best noodler wouldn't step foot in it.

You are so funny...... How in the world could someone promise someone an election?????? Are you really that naive? I think that shows that you dont have much faith in the election process. But then again if all my candidates lost as have yours, I probably wouldnt have much faith either.

Don't put your money where your mouth is. It will take quite a long time to get all those knives out of someone's back.

Hmmmm not exactly sure what that comment means. Other than the usual someone speaking of something they have only heard rumors of and not the truth. But I would expect nothing less from you.