View Full Version : Could OKC eventually have the tallest tower in the nation?



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JOHNINSOKC
07-11-2007, 07:40 PM
Since there has been a great deal of talk about a new signature tower for OKC, I was pondering the question of whether or not having the tallest tower in the nation could happen here in the future. Is it possible? Yes, but maybe not for another decade or two. Back in the early 20th century, OKC was the fastest growing city in the nation, and I've heard some say that OKC was going to be the New York City of mid-America. I think the growth of the DFW metroplex has kept that from happening, but you never know what is in store for this city in the future. I figure that if Nashville can build the third tallest in America, why couldn't OKC do something similar? The sky is the limit!:)

Kerry
07-11-2007, 08:35 PM
I think Signature Tower in Nashville will be the 3rd tallest residential building. Still at over 1000' it will it will be a tall building. However, it will make the rest of Nashville seem small in comparison. For OKC I would prefer a building that was more in line with what we already have. Maybe 650' max.

John
07-11-2007, 09:31 PM
I don't think it'd be appropriate to put a limit on how high anyone can build...

DTOKC could get in on the campaign: Build UP :)

bombermwc
07-12-2007, 07:17 AM
Um...no. It really would look silly to have something that would be 5 times taller than anything downtown now. Besides, the one in Chicago is about to be the tallest in the world for the 5 minutes that always lasts. So why reach that goal if you know you won't keep it for very long anyway?

You really have to balance how well something will fit in with a magnificent vision like that. It's one thing to stand out, but to stand out like that would be more of an eyesore than cool.

metro
07-12-2007, 08:13 AM
I don't know if I'd want it to be the tallest in the US, etc. It would make it a prime target for terrorists. While I do want several new towers, I am with the rest and say don't build it too much higher than the rest of ours. I say 750 would be nice, until we get more infill and a few other new towers.

oudirtypop
07-12-2007, 08:42 AM
Not to sound pessimistic, but i dont think any new tower is headed to OKC and i dont think it will for a while. Towers come when space is limited. If you have driven anywhere around OKC, space is not even close to limited. 650 feet, 750 feet, over 1000 feet, i dont care. i think any tower would be awesome for OKC, but i dont think that kind of economy is here. Chesapeake has their campus, Devon doesnt want a 70 story building, and kerr mcgee left the city. There are some great corporations here, but we need a large national corporation for something to be serious.

Just my thoughts.

Midtowner
07-12-2007, 10:11 AM
dirty,

While a tower may be more expensive to build than an expansive corporate campus, it is at the same time far more cost-effective (if you can get a good deal on parking which doesn't seem to be a problem for any large company in the downtown area). With campus facilities, overhead and maintenance are HUGE. One must hire an army of groundskeepers, maintenance workers, etc. For a tower? It's all right there under one roof. Everyone is right in the same spot. Interdepartmental activities require far less coordination. Having someone give the same presentation to 7 groups of employees in 2 hours or so isn't an impossibility.

Also, towers make a company far more visible than expansive corporate campuses do.

I don't think we're set to get the tallest tower in the nation anytime soon. I really wouldn't want it for that matter. I'd like something to compliment the other buildings in our skyline.. not to make them look smallish.

OKC PATROL
07-12-2007, 11:14 AM
I think building a tower that size is obviously silly like others have mentioned....The BOK tower in Tulsa would be an appropriate example, not architecture but size, to start with. Then we step up to a 60 story and so on.

Does anyone think its a bit odd that our towers are all almost the same height?

I have always thought WHY? Why didnt our companies wake up and realize that putting another 10 stories of office space is NOT that big of a deal ...especially when you build a major tower that changes the skyline of a city and represents YOUR company. Forget about filling up office space??? . Kerr tower should have been 40 stories. Oklahoma tower should have been around 45 and chase tower(Liberty I say) should have been 55. Just goes to show you that an artist with a MFA should be in charge of SIM CITY DESIGNS. I mean come on...MIX IT UP A LITTLE MORONS.....

OU Adonis
07-12-2007, 11:42 AM
Does anyone know how much a 60 story tower would run?

redland
07-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Back in the early 20th century, OKC was the fastest growing city in the nation, and I've heard some say that OKC was going to be the New York City of mid-America.

Yes, following World War I it became apparent that there would be a major metropolis between Kansas City and the Mexican border. At that time Oklahoma City and Dallas were roughly the same size (in 1930, for instance, Dallas was ahead by only about 50,000), but Dallas had the salesmanship that OKC at that time lacked and we all know what happened.
As for any new tower (and I fervently hope for one), I would rather have one that is only moderately taller than Chase rather than one that would be completely out of proportion---skyline is partly about shape and not just about height.

HOT ROD
07-12-2007, 02:27 PM
I think Signature Tower in Nashville will be the 3rd tallest residential building. Still at over 1000' it will it will be a tall building. However, it will make the rest of Nashville seem small in comparison. For OKC I would prefer a building that was more in line with what we already have. Maybe 650' max.

Yeah, Chicago alone has 5 skyscrapers taller than that, with at least 3 more under costruction that will be taller, and at least 3 or so that are approved/proposed that will be taller (including the 2000 foot Chicago Spire, which would be the world's tallest - return BACK to Chicago), and countless others who are JUST below 1000'.

but yeah - nevertheless, kudos to Nashville.

As for OKC, I think we should focus on the state and region first b4 we try to tackle Chicago and New York. We need MUCH MORE DENSITY and a functional downtown to compete!

As for OKC's tower hopes, KMG tower was just purchased by SandRidge and FNC is getting updated and no doubt will fill with law firms, accountants, and specialty service firms - just what downtown needs. This will put the squeeze on Devon and other corporation(s) the city is dealing with to build towers downtown (or at least lease from one/some built by a developer). I anticipate at least a new tower u/c by 2010.

As for size, I thing OKC needs a new signature tower. 600 feet does not appear too much taller than 500 feet (compare Chase at 504 feet vs. FNC at 425 feet - not too much taller or out-of-whack). And I think even a 700 foot tower would be perfect for the city (and take the title back for the state) - it would be only 200 feet taller than chase, and hopefully would be architecturally significant. Im hoping it will be a glass tower with reflective glazing (neon outline at night). This alone would do WONDERS for downtown and Oklahoma City without taking away from the existing urban expanse that downtown is.

A 700 foot, 63 storey tower would take all of the titles away from Tulsa (highest in the state and highest number of floors) but I'd settle for highest in the state if there were a choice (Tulsa can keep the 62-storey record). Like I said, 700 feet is only 200 higher than Chase, it would look like a monument moreso than an out-of-whack skyscraper. After this one, we could shoot for 800 feet or so. I dont think OKC would go too much higher than that without a tremendous influx of jobs.

I have an idea for the aformentioned, team up and market OKC to Chicago and New York - as a back-office city. These surely are office jobs, where data is maintained and a 2nd headquarters of sorts exists in case of "problems!!" OKC is perfect for this, Tampa has benefitted and so has Atlanta - both were backoffice cities that now hold their own. OKC's central location and "cheap" land downtown (and white collar educated workforce) should be a sure fit selling point. The city should run with this, gear up the educational circles, get developers in line with master plans for towers downtown (and maybe a few more in the NW Business District also since we have 2 downtowns in OKC), and develop synergy between the academic and economic resources that exist at OCU/OU/OCCC/OSUOKC/SNU so on vs. the business community (and hopefully rapidly expanding at that). With this approach, OKC grows and becomes a more important business location - resulting in more flights, more people residing in OKC, more people doing business in OKC, more conventions, more things to do in OKC - possibly getting another major league franchise to 2nd the NBA's soon impending arrival, once the metro population reaches 2M.

I see great things, build it - and they might come. But market the city, and they surely will come!!!!!! At least an office (which is better than nothing). Heck, we could even "steal" offices away from DFW and Houston due to their 'saturation'. Now that would surely be a huge renaissance.

OU Adonis
07-12-2007, 02:59 PM
We need something. I would love to see the OKC population grow like PHX or some other cities.

bombermwc
07-13-2007, 08:18 AM
I read an article the other day about how high rent was getting in big cities....now is the perfect time to try and attract companies here to our cheaper rents, lack of traffic, and cleaner air! Those reasons are exactlly why that software company is moving into 50 Penn Place from NYC. We just need to get some more effort going on attracting more groups like that.

If we get some more of this sort of development moving, then I bet we would see a surge in the need for more space...ie new tower!!

Pete
07-13-2007, 09:27 AM
The way Dallas, Atlanta and Phoenix all became boom towns were they suddenly had critical mass to start luring companies from larger, colder, more expensive cities.

Critical mass meaning good airports and air service, cultural amenities, perception of being a 'big league town', lots of relatively inexpensive office space and housing, etc.

I think OKC is getting close to being in a similar position. You have to ask yourself, which city will be the next Charlotte or Las Vegas? I don't think there is anyone better positioned than Oklahoma City, especially with the constant buzz being generated.

jbrown84
07-13-2007, 11:20 AM
Yes, it's an exciting time for OKC.

dismayed
07-14-2007, 05:47 PM
We can boast the lowest rent or lowest taxes in the nation and that still won't bring the companies to this state. We need technologically skilled workers to attract more companies.

I was in Silicon Valley a few weeks ago. Many companies there are in the process of closing up shop and moving to... Austin, TX. I think we would do well to ask ourselves why that is.

Midtowner
07-14-2007, 05:55 PM
Well said dismayed.

dismayed
07-14-2007, 05:58 PM
Well darn. I edited the text because I thought I came on too strong. Perhaps I should have left it. :)

Midtowner
07-14-2007, 06:06 PM
You were right in what you said. Oklahoma in general is seen as a very backwards state. This is primarily due to the fact that the state seems to produce some very backwards lawmakers. When they could be focusing on ways to really improve the economy, you have nutters like Tim Pope out there making robocalls about his client's opponent's support of the "gay agenda."

If those guys are allowed to set the agenda for Oklahoma, we'll have problems.

AFCM
07-14-2007, 06:40 PM
Does anyone know how much a 60 story tower would run?

If it's in Oklahoma City, not nearly enough. Studies have shown that the average OKC resident doesn't get the recommended 20 minutes of exercise, three times a week. 60 stories seems a little big and you certainly don't get that large without sitting in one place for a long time.

OU Adonis
07-15-2007, 10:38 AM
You were right in what you said. Oklahoma in general is seen as a very backwards state. This is primarily due to the fact that the state seems to produce some very backwards lawmakers. When they could be focusing on ways to really improve the economy, you have nutters like Tim Pope out there making robocalls about his client's opponent's support of the "gay agenda."

If those guys are allowed to set the agenda for Oklahoma, we'll have problems.

You can't be serious to think that companies don't come here because there are lawmakers that don't support gay rights.

Midtowner
07-15-2007, 11:49 AM
You can't be serious to think that companies don't come here because there are lawmakers that don't support gay rights.

There have been studies which have reached that conclusion. Ever hear of the "creative class"?

Is it any coincidence that cities which are generally known for their tolerance are growing faster and growing richer at a much quicker rate than cities who are known for intolerance?

This idea is certainly nothing new. A city that wants to grow needs to embrace diversity instead of be threatened by it.

dismayed
07-15-2007, 11:51 AM
To bring up what I edited out of my last post in this thread, basically what I was saying was that no large company is going to relocate to OKC because we have lower taxes, a cheaper economy, or tasty drinking water. It just doesn't happen. If you look at the movement of "high tech" companies over the last several years, it almost always boils down to one of two reasons: 1. a merger/buyout ends with one side having to relocate to the other, or 2. a company moves to get closer to its customer or supplier, to its competitors or collaborators, or moves to get closer to a base of people that it can potentially employ. That's really pretty much it.

If you look at that list, the only thing public policy can really address is stuff relating to creating industries here or bases of people that industries will want to take advantage of. So the big question OKC needs to ask itself is this: how do we attract "high tech" (be it software, aerospace, or biotechnology) workers? If you look at the cities these people inhabit, they are pretty forward-thinking places. How do you get people who are used to a certain quality of life and open minded society in Seattle, Portland, San Franscisco, Boston, or other places to want to follow their company and relocate? It's very difficult.

I mentioned that I was in Silicon Valley and companies were moving to Austin and their people were actually following them. Why? Austin has a reputation for being a very fun, modern, and cool city.

So long as this city remains the ultra conservative cornballfest that it is you are never going to see someone from any of these other places relocate here. Am I saying the city needs to change its political affiliation to attract high tech workers? Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that this city has to find a way to diversify itself, its interests, and its attractions to attract a wide range of people. We need a city that is intellectually challenging if we are to attract people whose job it is to create intellectual property. Art, music, film, etc. are all important to workers of these industries... that's why companies are moving to places like the "live music capital of the world."

I've worked for a few companies that tried to relocate folks from other places out here to the plains states. If you can't get people to move here, you end up having to hire locally for a job. When you do that, at some point you completely tap out the available workforce. Without cross-pollination from people from other places in the country, your company won't be able to sustain the collaboration that intellectual properties need now days, and eventually things either end in disaster or you remain isolated forever.

So OKC, how do we become a place where people from all over, from all different viewpoints and ideas will want to come to?

Midtowner
07-15-2007, 12:06 PM
dismayed,

I'm very optimistic that the people attracted to this city by the core-to-shore and other downtown developments will be the forward thinking sorts we need to create an environment to really incubate a creative class enclave on the great plains.

Aside from developers' dollars, I think this is why city leaders place such a high priority in the success of this project. OKC is in a unique position in that we have the opportunity to build a really awesome place to live, work and possibly raise a family. We can either half-ass it or we can do something truly world-class.

I want our city fathers to choose a core-to-shore option that makes the people of this city exclaim "That's crazy! That'll never work! It's too ambitious!"

I want them to choose something which makes MAPS look comparatively suburban. I don't care what it costs. Oklahoma City has shot itself in the foot over and over again over the last 50 years. To reverse that trend, we have to do something pretty radical.

BDP
07-15-2007, 02:59 PM
You can't be serious to think that companies don't come here because there are lawmakers that don't support gay rights.

You'd be surprised at what gets discussed in relocation deliberations. These people know that 1) some of them will have to live where the company relocates and 2) that the company's image will be associated with the market to which it relocates. Most companies do not see any merit to locating in an area that is known for intolerance and bigotry. Not only can it superficially hurt its image, but it can also REALLY hurt its recruiting. Cost savings are great, but if you don't have the talent, you will get killed in the marketplace.

Now, this isn't to say that this is the deciding factor for any company out there, but it doesn't help us at all, especially in a close race. Companies usually have dozens of viable choices of where to locate their corporate offices. Why would they want to locate in an area where the legislature is more concerned with restricting the rights of their potential work force than fostering a well rounded economy that welcomes all qualified workers? You know, they could just as easily go elsewhere where they don't have to worry about that crap and get on with business. And guess what? They usually do.

This is actually been proven over and over and no study is needed to make it obvious. You don't have to be a genius to look at the years of cost of doing business advantage Oklahoma has held over much of the nation and notice that something else is making these decisions for the businesses. Everyone is kidding themselves if they think businesses make these decisions on cost savings alone. Oklahoma City would have been attracting companies from all of the country years ago. Lifestyle and available talent in the local work force seem to win out more often than not.

gmwise
07-15-2007, 05:06 PM
However way you choose to read this. So be it.
But I don' t see OKC having a "skyscaper" mention on here.
I don't see economics supporting it.
I don't see anyone with the money to sink into a project like this here in OKC.
Our population density doesn't warrent a "skyscraper" nor a transit train.HINT to the Mayor.
Our present income level per captia wouldn't support it, not is there enough for a "residential tower".
Its great we want to see good things for OKC/Oklahoma, but realism is needed before a huge parting of money.
I'm not about to use taxbreaks to get something built that will just sit mostly empty.
And public officals if you value your job and freedom, don't you do it!

OU Adonis
07-15-2007, 06:32 PM
I find some of these comments amusing. So far out into left field litterally. I am done with this thread.

metro
07-15-2007, 06:43 PM
Yeah, gmwise's comments crack me up. He'd be surprised what OKC's underserved economy could do. Just like the naysayers of the Hornets and look what they did. OKC could easily support at least one new tower, and gmwise, more than likely, it will come out of private pockets, not public. Very very very rarely does the public ever pay for stuff like this. Present income would support it. I believe OKlahoma was 3rd in the nation last year for personal income growth. This strong oil money filters down through our economy. Last time I checked these oil companies paid very well, and the top players have thousands of employees alone. Of course, we still have other sectors such as medical and government that is doing very well. Public transit is a must, look at smaller cities than us who have MUCH BETTER public transportation systems. All I can say is watch what we have here in a few years. You'll be surprised.

adaniel
07-15-2007, 08:34 PM
Yeah, gmwise's comments crack me up. He'd be surprised what OKC's underserved economy could do. Just like the naysayers of the Hornets and look what they did. OKC could easily support at least one new tower, and gmwise, more than likely, it will come out of private pockets, not public. Very very very rarely does the public ever pay for stuff like this. Present income would support it. I believe OKlahoma was 3rd in the nation last year for personal income growth. This strong oil money filters down through our economy. Last time I checked these oil companies paid very well, and the top players have thousands of employees alone. Of course, we still have other sectors such as medical and government that is doing very well. Public transit is a must, look at smaller cities than us who have MUCH BETTER public transportation systems. All I can say is watch what we have here in a few years. You'll be surprised.

I agree metro. With all of the good news OKC has had in the past few weeks (landing mayors convention, in consideration for Piper HQ, major real estate deal that could lead in new tower, new housing projects finally coming online, Sonics inching closer to relocation, more grads staying in state, etc..) I'm a little blown away by some of the negative posts that are starting to show up here. There's nothing wrong with wanting better things for OKC. I think its a good thing b/c the other option is to just throw up your hands and say,"Well I guess that's just the way things are." It shows that citizens want momentum to continue. That being said, OKC is hardly a stagnant backwater like some people say. Maybe its the gloomy weather thats put some people in a bad mood. Sheesh, have a little faith in your hometown. Good things are happening here.

AFCM
07-15-2007, 08:56 PM
Gmwise, were you living in Oklahoma City ten years ago to see how far it has come since then? With the growth and momentum OKC has experience in just the last ten years, it's foolish to think Oklahoma City can't successfully support a new tower. Drive around town and count the cranes. I can think of about a dozen, with most of them working downtown/midtown. I know of maybe three near OSU/OKC. I've also seen several near I-240/SW 59th. That's momentum on a huge scale and it's not going to end anytime soon. Oil prices don't look like they're going to drop anytime in the near future, so the economy should be set for a while. One thing we're getting now that we didn't have during the 80's is diversity. Our diversity isn't a great as other major cities, but it's more than we had back then. Like everything else, it takes time. The point is, momentum is pointing towards a bright future. With that being said, I respect your opinion and welcome anything else you might like to add. I always enjoy reading an opposing point-of-view.

HOT ROD
07-15-2007, 09:19 PM
^ I definitely agree. OKC is on the up and up.

We have true visionary people leading this city now that care about it, and not only that - but they recognize the potential that OKC has and know what it takes to move us forward.

Buying the Sonics and moving them to OKC will truly revolutionize the city, not so much because the team itself will DO anything for the city but due to the recognition factor that a pro team does for your city; people worldwide will see Oklahoma City every time they open the sports section.

Ask Salt Lake what the impact of the New Orleans Jazz has done for them. ....

OKC is very very similar to SLC yet is in a much better position. SLC didn't really start growing until after the NBA established a team there, OKC is already growing even tho the city doesn't have a permanent team (yet).

I assume a lot of the growth is in anticipation of this team, it gives corporations and citizens something to do. You wanna bet that SandRidge, Devon, and all other OKC based and located companies will start using the Sonics as a recruiting tool to get talent to OKC? You wanna bet that having the Sonics in OKC will convince otherwise disappointed recruits that coming to OKC might not be so bad.

And once they get here, I think they might even tell a friend or two what a gem OKC is becoming.

And all of this started by someone back in the early 1990's who had a vision and was tired of the same-old-complacentcy! He invisioned a downtown where people would come for entertainment as well as to work and even live. To do so, you need cultural attractions and quality of life. He sold the city an idea called MAPS, and we all know the rest. ...

Well, now we are really seeing the fruits of MAPS, not JUST the buildings or canal or whatever, but try this ... billions and I mean multi billions of dollars of PRIVATE investment in the downtown area!! With more to come.

Sandridge moving downtown will certainly keep this momentum going, and will keep a major skyscraper listed as owner occupied. Certainly, look for SandRidge to grow and fill up the tower. And because SandRidge is making the big move, look for other companies to want to locate downtown now, with all of the excitement and the fact that there are high-profile companies based there; accountants, lawyers, consultants, brokers - all will be making a return to the cbd.

And Devon surely will build a tower, American Fidelity might also. And surely OKC will get an NBA team, most likely (like 99%) it will be the SuperSonics/Storm.

And forever more, OKC will be prosperous as long as those ultra-conservative, non-progressive, complacent, naysaying individuals like GMWISE are ignored or not allowed the time of day here.

I can ONLY assume that his comments are based on the fact that GM closed its plant here - OKC was not alone and surely you can/will find another job elsewhere in the city. If not now, definitely soon!

Keep the faith in your city!!! :bright_id

Midtowner
07-15-2007, 09:26 PM
I can ONLY assume that his comments are based on the fact that GM closed its plant here - OKC was not alone and surely you can/will find another job elsewhere in the city. If not now, definitely soon!

Well said except the stuff about gmwise. I don't claim to know his situation, neither do you. I think you're going too far in saying that he should be silenced. There's room at the table for anyone with an opinion. If he doesn't think OKC will do it, let him think that.

This is only an internet message board. We are not overly influential or important in the grand scheme of things.

The purpose of a place like this is to learn about the city by learning from its people. If we squelch certain voices just because we don't agree with them, we start sounding like an echo-chamber. That's just no fun at all.

So disagree.. tell him why he's wrong. Tell the great story about how Oklahoma City is booming. But he has as much right to be heard as anyone else.

jbrown84
07-16-2007, 09:15 AM
I didn't see anything about silencing anyone.

metro
07-16-2007, 12:37 PM
I have an idea, a little off-topic somewhat. We all talk about a "high-rise" or an tourist attraction like an observation tower. I know it may sound cheesy, but it is a better idea and cheaper than the Kerr-McGee Bell Tower is. How about repainting and upgrading the current space needle from the fairgrounds and moving it 4 miles or so east to the banks of the Oklahoma River near the Chesapeake Boathouse. It would be fairly cheap to do. provide a year-round attraction that would get far more attendance than the once a year state fair, and provide one more thing to do downtown and provide excellent views. How about it??

CuatrodeMayo
07-16-2007, 01:12 PM
How tall is it?

Midtowner
07-16-2007, 01:22 PM
That thing is pretty pedestrian compared to other observation towers.

I once had occasion to have lunch on top of the CN Tower in Toronto when my fraternity had its "Grand Chapter" up there. That was really pretty amazing. At any rate, the fairgrounds tower is ugly. I'd want something a little more avant-garde than that tower which vaguely resembles a tuna can on top of a light pole.

www.cntower.ca (http://www.cntower.ca/portal/)

CuatrodeMayo
07-16-2007, 01:33 PM
Yea...I think our skyline might look like a flea market knock-off of Seattle or Toronto's skiline.

metro
07-16-2007, 01:40 PM
That's why I didn't suggest it as permanent, and not in the CBD. I suggested it on the Oklahoma River if it got some basic upgrades and new paint. It would sure look better than the Kerr McGee Bell Tower, and would be an attraction none-the-less. Once it was doing well, it would hopefully convince someone to build/ raise bonds, MAPS3, etc. for a more permanent, iconic observation tower.

Pete
07-16-2007, 02:10 PM
I think there are some good points raised here, even though they may be a little on the extreme side and also hard to hear.

Unfortunately, perception is reality and if people really want OKC to become progressive in order to attract and retain the best and brightest, the whole state has to look more progressive than it currently comes across.

I'd say most the leadership in OKC has shown themselves to be forward-thinking and that helps a great deal. But the state needs to do things like change our silly liquor laws... It's not so much of a commerce issue as it is one of perception, just like when we were the last state to get liquor-by-the-drink. And not to get too political, but our senators and congressmen need to stop portraying the state as a bunch of intolerant exclusionists.


But as far as tech companies, they are almost all home-grown, not relocated from other areas. The Silicon Valley and Research Triangle exist because people from those areas (the products of great universities) started them and then fed them with the local talent.

There is no reason this can't happen in OKC and in fact, it is already happening in biotech. The Health Science Center is poised for a massive expansion over the next 10 years and the huge majority of the jobs will be highly paid. And the research park on OU's south campus is starting to get some critical mass as well.

And OKC and OU need better symbiosis in general. Great cities need great universities and vice versa. OU is only 20 minutes from downtown OKC but until recently, it seemed like worlds away. Nothing against OSU but that school is not part of the Metro and may even be more aligned with Tulsa than OKC anyway. And there is no reason OCU and UCO can't join in more as well.

dismayed
07-16-2007, 10:03 PM
I still think some kind of New Years tower would be cool downtown. Something with an observation deck, something very modern looking... maybe deck it out with OLED panels or something futuristic and have them present a lightshow at night. On NYE sections of it could light up and move up towards the top of the tower at midnight.

CCOKC
07-16-2007, 10:04 PM
I think everybody here brings up some really good points. We do have quite a bit of diversity here especially if you compare us against the Pacific Norhwest. I am thinking mostly about Idaho and Utah in particular. When I was in Boise, it was a rare event to see anyone who was not white, unless they were mowing a lawn.
I think I heard on the local radio station Boise is 95% white. Compared with about 70% in OKC that is a noticeable difference. I believe the diversity should be celebrated. The black history in OKC is very interesting and important to civil rights nationwide and I think we need some kind of OK Black History Museum downtown. Also, as part of Core to Shore there is talk of building up a Mercado around Little Flower Church. This sounds like a great idea to me. We are also getting the American Indian Cultural Center which also celebrates are diversity.
Last week I read an article from the New York Times by a food editor who is travelling the nation eating local food. He spent the whole three days eating soley Vietnamese food. What great exposure for us! Maybe someone could find the article and post it I'm afraid I'm not very good at doing this sort of thing.

Also, about the city landmark; I would like to see everybody's serious ideas about a quintessential tower/landmark/icon from all of the brilliantly artistic people on this forum. It has to be spectacular and I'm afraid the thing at the fairgrounds just won't cut it even in the short term. Come on people, I'm a cpa so by definition I have no imagination but I know you guys can come up with some great ideas. Think Gateway Arch, Statue of Liberty. Golden Gate Bridge or even Reunion Tower.

betts
07-16-2007, 11:16 PM
To bring up what I edited out of my last post in this thread, basically what I was saying was that no large company is going to relocate to OKC because we have lower taxes, a cheaper economy, or tasty drinking water. It just doesn't happen. If you look at the movement of "high tech" companies over the last several years, it almost always boils down to one of two reasons: 1. a merger/buyout ends with one side having to relocate to the other, or 2. a company moves to get closer to its customer or supplier, to its competitors or collaborators, or moves to get closer to a base of people that it can potentially employ. That's really pretty much it.

If you look at that list, the only thing public policy can really address is stuff relating to creating industries here or bases of people that industries will want to take advantage of. So the big question OKC needs to ask itself is this: how do we attract "high tech" (be it software, aerospace, or biotechnology) workers? If you look at the cities these people inhabit, they are pretty forward-thinking places. How do you get people who are used to a certain quality of life and open minded society in Seattle, Portland, San Franscisco, Boston, or other places to want to follow their company and relocate? It's very difficult.

I mentioned that I was in Silicon Valley and companies were moving to Austin and their people were actually following them. Why? Austin has a reputation for being a very fun, modern, and cool city.

So long as this city remains the ultra conservative cornballfest that it is you are never going to see someone from any of these other places relocate here. Am I saying the city needs to change its political affiliation to attract high tech workers? Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that this city has to find a way to diversify itself, its interests, and its attractions to attract a wide range of people. We need a city that is intellectually challenging if we are to attract people whose job it is to create intellectual property. Art, music, film, etc. are all important to workers of these industries... that's why companies are moving to places like the "live music capital of the world."

I've worked for a few companies that tried to relocate folks from other places out here to the plains states. If you can't get people to move here, you end up having to hire locally for a job. When you do that, at some point you completely tap out the available workforce. Without cross-pollination from people from other places in the country, your company won't be able to sustain the collaboration that intellectual properties need now days, and eventually things either end in disaster or you remain isolated forever.

So OKC, how do we become a place where people from all over, from all different viewpoints and ideas will want to come to?

An NBA team is a great start. Professional sports are one important thing that lifts a city above others of a similar size. Movies in the park downtown, Shakespeare in the park, interesting places to live, interesting restaurants (Atlanta is a city to emulate in that respect....I've recently been to some amazing restaurants there with very interesting decor and menus...Float Away Cafe and Two Urban Lick are a couple that come to mind)., great clubs and music venues. I think the concept of a city as an interesting place to live starts with the twenty and thirty somethings in a city. Those are the people who are mobile and open to change. Keep young professionals in state and attract others from out of state.

metro
07-17-2007, 07:42 AM
CCOKC, the New York Times article you are referring to is posted somewhere here on the site. I read it yesterday but I can't remember what forum. I bet if you do a search you can locate it. Yes, it was good diverse exposure for OKC!!

Pete
07-17-2007, 08:14 AM
Here's that article from the NY Times:


July 4, 2007
Frugal Traveler | American Road Trip
Good Morning, Vietnam ... er, Oklahoma
By MATT GROSS

AMERICANS do not like vegetables. At least, it seems that way after almost two months on the road, during which I’ve eaten at countless country cafes and rarely ever encountered anything fresh and green. When I have, it’s been iceberg salads with toupees of flavorless yellow cheese, battered and deep-fried string beans and, inevitably, cole slaw.

Not that the food hasn’t been delicious — like the pulled pork at Blue Mist in Asheboro, N.C., or the patty melt at Spice Water Cafe in Lime Springs, Iowa. But a diet of meat, starch and fat is not what you want when you spend hours a day sitting in a car. Often, as I digested the latest gut bomb, I would wonder if my budget was keeping me away from greener, healthier restaurants. But, no. I rarely glimpsed such places outside big cities and a few hip towns.

And so, with Oklahoma City in my sights, I headed south as fast as I could. I had one thing on my mind: Vietnamese food.

It may come as a surprise that Oklahoma’s capital has a significant Vietnamese population — around 20,000, according to the Vietnamese American Community organization — but such ethnic enclaves are a new American reality. Hmong live in large numbers in Minnesota, for example, while Columbus, Ohio, is home to some 30,000 Somalis. And in each case, the immigrants bring their own cuisines, which often are tasty, full of veggies and inexpensive.

Oklahoma City, however, lay a long way from Nebraska, where I’d just visited Carhenge (www.carhenge.com). From there, I drove through Kansas, stopping at Greensburg to witness the aftermath of the May 4 tornado. Then I had to drop the car off in Wichita, at Gorges & Company Volvo (3211 North Webb Road, 316-630-0689, www.volvobygorges.com), for much-needed repairs; 6,000 miles’ worth of leaks and electrical problems cost a disheartening $855.

It was late on Saturday evening when I finally drove into Oklahoma City and checked into the first place that looked clean, had Wi-Fi and was cheap. The Hospitality Inn (3709 NW 39th Street, 405-942-7730) is a simple motel — two stories arranged around a swimming pool — but it is on the fabled Route 66 and less sketchy than some of the older motels, and the proprietor knocked the price down from $62 a night to $51.25 when I said I’d be staying three days.

There was a lot to see, but the real plan was to eat as much Vietnamese food as possible. I knew this would take discipline, so as soon as I woke up Sunday morning, I went jogging. The motel is on a highway, but a few blocks south is Will Rogers Park, several acres of grass, trees and ponds. Ducks and geese and hares had to scurry as I bounded over bridges, through the rose garden and around the arboretum for about 30 minutes. On my way back, I took note of the park’s tennis center and wondered if I could find a partner there later in the day.

Now, however, it was time for breakfast, so I drove through the city, past numerous barbecue joints and root beer stands for the more balanced delights awaiting me in the city’s Asian District, a modest neighborhood of strip malls and slightly run-down houses lining North Classen Boulevard.

I knew exactly what I’d be eating: pho, the beef noodle soup that is considered the national dish of Vietnam. It may seem a strange breakfast, but all over Southeast Asia, it’s common to begin the day with noodle soup.

And that’s how I began at Pho Hoa (901 NW 23rd Street, 405-521-8087), recommended by an Oklahoma-born friend. In the brightly lit room, surrounded by Vietnamese families, I ordered a small bowl. The first bite was heaven, as if my taste buds had been in suspended animation all these weeks. The noodles were thin but firm, the broth redolent of star anise, topped with thin slices of rare flank steak and well-cooked brisket. I garnished it with bean sprouts, basil and ngo gai, a long, lemony leaf known as sawtooth or culantro, then squeezed in some lime juice and mixed it all together. The bean sprouts crunched, and the herbs provided a fresh counterpoint to the hot soup.

When I dipped a slice of flank steak in a little dish of Sriracha chili sauce, I could tell it had been a long time since I’d eaten like this — my tongue, usually able to withstand any assault, from habaneros to bird’s eyes, was on fire. I cooled down with a salted-lime soda, then walked out the door with an iced coffee enriched with condensed milk, having paid only $11.53 for a taste not just of Vietnam but of home. (I lived in Ho Chi Minh City, the former Saigon, in 1996 and 1997.)

My stomach temporarily full, I drove downtown to the Oklahoma City National Memorial, a park dedicated to the victims of Timothy McVeigh’s 1995 terrorist attack on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Two stone arches bracket a reflecting pool, bearing the times “9:01” (before the bombing) and “9:03” (after), and 168 chairs sit in a field of grass to represent those who died.

As I walked in, I heard a teenager ask his mother why McVeigh did it.

“Well, he had something against the government, I guess,” she answered, and they walked out.

If they’d stuck around, they could’ve learned more from Rick Thomas, the National Park Service employee who gave a free orientation under the Survivor Tree, a century-old elm. In the span of 15 minutes, he covered everything from the details of the attack to the ways the memorial tries to address the emotions of everyone affected by the bombing. I left hoping my own city’s 9/11 memorial winds up being, as Doug Kamholz, a reader, wrote of this one, “a worthy balm to the heart.”

After a brief stroll through the area, I returned to the Asian District around 11:30 a.m. in search of banh mi, or Vietnamese sandwiches. And in Oklahoma City, the signal for banh mi is an enormous milk bottle sitting atop a tiny shack on Classen Boulevard. Once, this place sold Braum’s ice cream; now it’s Banh Mi Ba Le (2426 North Classen Boulevard, 405-524-2660), famous as much for its outsize sign as for its warm mini-baguettes stuffed with roast pork, pâté, cha lua (a Vietnamese mortadella), lightly pickled daikon and carrot, cilantro and green chilies. I love them — especially when they cost $1.85. It’s ridiculous how much you get for so little.

It was sort of the opposite at the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum (1700 NE 63rd Street, 405-478-2250, www.nationalcowboymuseum. org; entry, $8.50), which readers suggested I visit. It was quite large, with rooms full of saddles, guns, clothing and cowboy art, but it seemed geared toward 10-year-old boys, more interested in perpetuating the romantic myth of the cowboy than in understanding how that myth came to be and what it means for American culture. It was almost as if “Deadwood” and “Unforgiven” never existed.

As I drove away from the museum, I passed yet another barbecue joint, right next door, and wondered if I was missing something in my single-minded devotion to Vietnamese cuisine.

Then I arrived at Banh Cuon Tay Ho (Little Saigon Shopping Center, 2524 North Military Avenue, 405-528-7700) for a midafternoon snack and forgot all about hickory-smoked slabs of meat. The signature dish, banh cuon, is a kind of northern Vietnamese ravioli — warm, thick, soft rice noodles filled with ground pork and mushrooms, and topped with bean sprouts, sliced cucumbers, cha lua and shredded mint. Here it was served with a fried cake of sweet potato and shrimp that was simultaneously salty and sweet, crunchy and creamy. In fact, I think the whole plate contained every known texture and flavor — and for a mere $6.

By now, I needed to work off three meals, so I returned to the park, hoping to find a pick-up tennis partner. I didn’t. (Who but the Frugal Traveler goes to a tennis court alone?) Instead, I swam laps in the Hospitality Inn pool, napped briefly and emerged from the motel — ready to eat again.

Golden Phoenix (2728 North Classen Boulevard, 405-524-3988), recommended by the proprietor of Banh Mi Ba Le, was bustling with families and college students, and with the help of my waitress, who giggled at my poor Vietnamese, I put together a standard southern Vietnamese dinner — the kind of meal I ate every day a decade ago. First, a deep-fried soft-shell crab that dribbled its bubbling green juices into my rice bowl with every bite. Then water spinach stir-fried with garlic, fresh from the wok, the tubular stems crunchy, the leafy bits lush and juicy. A clay pot showed up full of caramelized braised fish, and finally goi ngo sen, a salad of cucumber and young lotus shoots threaded through with rau ram, a diamond-shaped leaf that tastes like cilantro but is spicier and soapier.

I ate — and ate and ate. Soon, I knew, I’d be off to Texas and day after day of beautiful barbecue (mm, burnt ends!), but for now I was crunching through fresh veggies, searing my mouth with chilies and drowning myself in fish sauce — deliriously happy in the heartland of America.

By the time I finished, I’d spent $48 (including a beer, dessert and tip) and barely touched the lotus-shoot salad — it was just too much food. Instead, I had it boxed up to take back to the motel. It wasn’t quite pho, but it would do for breakfast.

Next stop: Texas.

CCOKC
07-17-2007, 08:49 PM
Thanks for posting that Malibu

gmwise
07-18-2007, 12:35 PM
I would like to suggest you see what the office space in OKC Metro, & Residential is doing right now.
I also suggest sometimes playing Devils' Advocate allows some to explore why they love/hate OKC,maybe mention what has or would make OKC to be better, so those who have the ear or the actually purse strings could make it happen.
Debate should never be discouraged.
Only the insecured scream and discourage/censor others from speaking/posting.
Pretty revealing there. eh?!

HOT ROD
07-18-2007, 02:43 PM
I wasn't trying to discourage you or debate, I just felt that your tone was inappropriate for the discussion and that your "facts" were off-base. I certainly did not mean to offend you in ANY way! Sorry you took it that way.

But I do agree with you ^^, if you have a negative - why not suggest an improvement? :)

We all know OKC isn't perfect but it sure is doing way way better than 15 years ago. While we should be proud of ourselves we should not sit on our laurels and a shot or two with constructive criticism is appropriate.

That being said, I still don't get your past post gmwise. It really seems as tho you are letting your GM experience (apparent) assist you into believing that "OKC can't expand its downtown presence", to paraphrase you; but I do believe there has been billions of dollars in private monies spent downtown already and there has been news posts of at least 5 companies looking to move/expand/build downtown.

that ist great news! Be proud of your town.

Sure, I want to see it happen (prob just like you), but I will take the positive approach (of encouragement) and only accept (ie debate) the negative if it comes with alternatives.

I didn't see any in your past post.

stlokc
07-18-2007, 04:35 PM
Hot Rod, I could not agree with you more. To see Oklahoma City today and to remember what it was like before the mid-1990s is to recognize a vast improvement in almost every way. The successes of OKC are apparent in threads all across this board, and I am more and more proud of my hometown every time I come home.

I do think that OKC boosters run the risk of resting on their laurels, though, and that is dangerous because if the oil economy collapses, the city has not passed "the point of no return" in its re-invention. To take just one example: the office vacancy rate is still murderously high, (I think the highest in the country) and I see very little "corporate peer pressure" to move businesses downtown. Everyone applauds Sandridge but it is going to take way more than their 1500 workers to begin to make the streets of the CBD seem crowded again. I think some in the business community are content to see Downtown as nothing more than a playground and not step up to the fact they have a huge role, maybe the central role, to play. Maybe the answer is incentives, maybe it takes a huge education and marketing campaign, I don't know.

This is not to endorse any negative thinking. I am the king of positive thinking and want to again emphasize how proud I am of OKC. I just worry that too many people I know that live there seem to think the downtown renaissance has achieved its purpose. The reality is there could be $10 billion more in private development and it still wouldn't be at its potential. Just a thought.

JOHNINSOKC
07-18-2007, 05:10 PM
You are definitely correct when you say that the city shouldn't rest and assume that we've reached our goals or potential. I think the sky is the limit for downtown OKC and the metro as a whole. The vacancy rate is somewhat skewed by so much of the Class C space being vacant. The last report I remember seeing, and this is about a year or so ago, the Class A rate downtown was 14.9% vacant. That's not too bad. I would venture to guess that it's around 13% currently. If Devon decides to build a huge tower downtown, it will take roughly two years for construction and I would expect that our occupancy levels would be vastly improved by then. Between company moves from the suburbs to downtown, and possible new corporations coming to OKC, I think a Devon Tower would not be a negative factor in the office market. Thoughts??

okcpulse
07-18-2007, 05:59 PM
Yeah, gmwise, I don't discourage debate, but debate needs accuracy do be a good debate. I'm not saying you're not accurate, but you come across as uninformed about Oklahoma City lately. I am going to provide feedback for your post, and I'll break down my responses to each argument in your post.


I don't see economics supporting it.

Several companies in OKC are growing fast and cobbling up what Class A and Class B space we have left. A couple of those companies are big believers in downtown. Moving downtown and building downtown is a trend. Economics here have changed.


I don't see anyone with the money to sink into a project like this here in OKC.

Local companies in Oklahoma City aren't hard up for money. In fact, they are awash in money. Devon Energy is occupying all of its 19 story HQ, half of Oklahoma City's tallest building, and several other smaller spaces in First National Center.


Our population density doesn't warrent a "skyscraper" nor a transit train.HINT to the Mayor.


This is a very bad assumption. People should really get away from using population density to justigy whether projects should be built. Oklahoma City could deannex 300 square miles, have the same population of 540,000 and have its density double. As for a mass transit train, again, bad to rely on population density as a factor. I admire cities that plan well ahead instead of wait until the last dead minute like Houston, Dallas and LA. What's wrong with OKC planning smart?


Our present income level per captia wouldn't support it, not is there enough for a "residential tower".

We have one of the nation's fastest growing per capita incomes, and we're planning for more growth. OKC can support residential towers in the twenty-story range. Besides, two twenty story towers that were recently converted from office to residential are doing well.


Its great we want to see good things for OKC/Oklahoma, but realism is needed before a huge parting of money.

There is a thing called feasibility studies that are done before thse projects get going. It isn't pure speculation.


I'm not about to use taxbreaks to get something built that will just sit mostly empty.


Again, that is why feasibility studies are done. Banks don't hand over financing for projects that don't hold any convincing.

I rest my case.

stlokc
07-19-2007, 07:39 AM
You are definitely correct when you say that the city shouldn't rest and assume that we've reached our goals or potential. I think the sky is the limit for downtown OKC and the metro as a whole. The vacancy rate is somewhat skewed by so much of the Class C space being vacant. The last report I remember seeing, and this is about a year or so ago, the Class A rate downtown was 14.9% vacant. That's not too bad. I would venture to guess that it's around 13% currently. If Devon decides to build a huge tower downtown, it will take roughly two years for construction and I would expect that our occupancy levels would be vastly improved by then. Between company moves from the suburbs to downtown, and possible new corporations coming to OKC, I think a Devon Tower would not be a negative factor in the office market. Thoughts??

I honestly don't know whether a Devon tower would be a negative factor in the office market. I do think Larry Nichols is showing very good judgment to be concerned about it...it demonstrates that he is a thoughtful advocate for the city and is not going to rush into doing something just because he can afford it.
You are optimistic, and optimism is good. But what company moves from the suburbs have you seen beyond Sandridge and maybe a scattered small firm here or there? I don't think there has been a fundamental attitude shift in this regard. Dirt is flying on Memorial Road faster than ever. Also: what new corporations are on the horizon? Again, I don't want to be the downer, maybe you know some things I don't. But beyond MG, and even that seems questionable, I haven't heard of lots of new companies coming in and clamoring for Downtown office space.
It would seem the key is to convert as much of the Class C space as possible to residential, boutique hotel, or other uses, such as back office. Move the firms still in those spaces to Class A or Class B. Then maybe the overall vacancy rate will come down. Also: so much of that Class C space is in the First National Center. I'll be anxious to see what happens there.

metro
07-19-2007, 07:52 AM
There are many LARGE firms in OKC that most locals don't know about. I'm sure there are more out there that I don't know about than do. Jasco products, Hobby Lobby, CENTURY, Paycom(which is sadly building a Memorial Rd. HQ), alamode, American Fidelity, LONGWAVE, LOPEZ FOODS, and many others are very large firms in OKC that could easily do more as far as corporate support in the community as well as some of them it would be feasible to relocate downtown.

stlokc
07-19-2007, 08:22 AM
There are many LARGE firms in OKC that most locals don't know about. I'm sure there are more out there that I don't know about than do. Jasco products, Hobby Lobby, CENTURY, Paycom(which is sadly building a Memorial Rd. HQ), alamode, American Fidelity, LONGWAVE, LOPEZ FOODS, and many others are very large firms in OKC that could easily do more as far as corporate support in the community as well as some of them it would be feasible to relocate downtown.

EXACTLY what I am talking about. And why is Express Personnel building their HQ in Piedmont? I am a realist and I realize that not every company is going to locate downtown, nor should they. But in reality, if you have a large company, why wouldn't you want to be in the geographic center of the potential employee base? How many excellent people in Midwest City are never going to apply to Paycom? How many smart people in Moore won't bother with Express Personnel? In St. Louis where I live, 90% of the growth has been west and downtown is no longer the geographical center. OKC has had much more balanced growth and downtown should be using that to their advantage.

HOT ROD
07-20-2007, 03:18 AM
I agree STL

I think times are a changin for downtown OKC tho. Announcements of some kind are happening almost daily now. This is a GREAT time for downtown OKC!!!

And like WE both said, as long as the city does not rest on its laurels, downtown will once again become the business center of the state, not JUST the entertainment center.

I predict, once the Sonics do relocate to OKC, development will skyrocket. Not soo much because of the Sonics but because of what the NBA does for your city - we become major league in the eyes of marketers/advertisers. This translates into corporations!!

And the city has a good baseline established with its zoning and C2S designations, so as long as the city holds businesses and developers to quality and dense URBAN design and as long as the development is appropriate for the zoning, nothing should stop the next wave of development.

Could OKC be a different looking city in 2010 - with the Sonics (now a different name, say Bolts/Thunderbolts) and all of the current construction complete with new stuff getting started???

I predict so.

metro
07-20-2007, 07:54 AM
EXACTLY what I am talking about. And why is Express Personnel building their HQ in Piedmont? I am a realist and I realize that not every company is going to locate downtown, nor should they. But in reality, if you have a large company, why wouldn't you want to be in the geographic center of the potential employee base? How many excellent people in Midwest City are never going to apply to Paycom? How many smart people in Moore won't bother with Express Personnel? In St. Louis where I live, 90% of the growth has been west and downtown is no longer the geographical center. OKC has had much more balanced growth and downtown should be using that to their advantage.

stl, I don't think Express Personnel is building their HQ in Piedmont. They recently just built their new HQ on NW Expressway just west of Council just 3-4 years ago and have expanded it since.

gmwise
07-20-2007, 09:41 AM
I'm very glad to see that debate wasn't being discouraged.
I just wanted us as a City,to think as we have done with the MAPS project.
I'm all fine with postive thinking and striving, for the future but I seen to many dumb projects let loose not only community wise,but corporately.
I dunno where the "GM experience" mention above by HotRod came from.
I was a Marine for 20 years,retired as a E9.

Pete
07-20-2007, 10:15 AM
why is Express Personnel building their HQ in Piedmont?

Express Personnel is moving to a new building at 9701 Boardwalk Blvd.... Anybody know where this is? Doesn't show up on any mapping software.

But it certainly isn't downtown and their current HQ is way out on NW Expressway.

Bob Funk is clearly not the same sort of civic leader as McClendon, Ward, & Nichols, which is why the city is being very cautious about his Bricktown Village proposal. By all reports, the mayor and city manager feel like Funk has screwed them over in past dealings.

I understand that Funk is in business to make a profit but the other men mentioned have done pretty darn well while also looking after the interests of the community.

John
07-20-2007, 11:39 AM
I think that's the same street where they are currently located... just a new building opening up.

HOT ROD
07-20-2007, 03:37 PM
I'm very glad to see that debate wasn't being discouraged.
I just wanted us as a City,to think as we have done with the MAPS project.
I'm all fine with postive thinking and striving, for the future but I seen to many dumb projects let loose not only community wise,but corporately.
I dunno where the "GM experience" mention above by HotRod came from.
I was a Marine for 20 years,retired as a E9.

GM, I wasn't trying to offend you. I just thought that perhaps you were bitter due to GM retiring their plant and that your name has GM in it. I thought it could perhaps "explain" why you had your POV, since I could probably understand being a little mad if you lost your job as such.

I do stand corrected and accept your information. However, please offer some constructive criticism/ideas to spur debate or improve upon the badness, that way - everyone knows you aren't JUST picking on OKC. There's lots of people who stand-up for OKC now, so they/we dont take to kind to unnecessary shots. :boxing2:

Pete
07-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Thanks, John.

I listened to Richard Mize's real estate podcast on newsok.com and he mentioned Express Personnel is merely constructing a new building on their property on the south side of NW Expressway between Council & County Line. Just more needless sprawl.