A friend emailed me about Tommy Emmanuel the guitarist coming to town for a conert Monday.
This guy is widely considered to be the greatest acoustic guitar virtuoso EVER,
he's got 10 albums to his credit......I saw him in Houston and it was one of
the greatest shows ever......
There are a lot of videos of him performing on youtube

When I saw him in Houston, I would guess there were 10,000 people there,
but I was sort of surprised that he's performing tomorrow night at the
Norman Public Schools Performing Arts Center.

Which brings me to my poll. I can't EVER remember since the major
renovation seeing a relevent jazz or acoustic or vocal act come to the Civic
Center for a concert. Before the renovation, I saw LOTS of them.....

There are hundreds of acts that could never fill the Ford Center or
even half of it, but could nicely fill two shows at the Civic Center and with
it's great acoustics, it would be a night to remember. Wednesday night,
Alison Krauss is playing the Ford Center, but they're blocking out half of it......
and it's pretty much sold out, but this lady's talent will be ruined by the
Ford Center's rotten acoustics, and she could have gotten the same
head count by playing a two night engagement at the Civic Center and everyone
would have seen a concert worth remembering......

So there you are..........is the Civic Center doing a good job at promoting
to mid range MUSICAL talent?

or not

and if not, who at the Civic Center or the city should be contacted to improve
matters. I for one think that after 77 million dollars of OUR tax dollars
were used to rebuild the joint, that we ought to be seeing some shows there
outside of Fiddler on the Roof once a year.......

No, they are doing a horrible job at booking that place. It is OKC's only real venue of that size and that is actually the scale of most concerts today. I saw Coldplay there and Natalie Merchant there. Both sounded great and were much more enjoyable than many of the "garbage can" concerts I've been to at the Ford Center or Coca-Cola Event Center and I'm not a huge fan of either band.

The reality is that the theater circuit is where most live shows are these days and Oklahoma City either has lazy, very genre specific promoters and/or the venues we have are trash. The infrastructure, from bookers to venues, is just really weak for live music entertainment in Oklahoma City. I just can't figure out if the support just isn't there or if we just don't have any promoters that pay attention.

I don't know the answer to this. It seems to be that they keep pretty booked with all their resident performing arts companies as well as Celebrity Attractions and other tours, but it's true they seem to be mostly theatre-related.

A friend emailed me about Tommy Emmanuel the guitarist coming to town for a conert Monday.
This guy is widely considered to be the greatest acoustic guitar virtuoso EVER,
he's got 10 albums to his credit......I saw him in Houston and it was one of
the greatest shows ever......
There are a lot of videos of him performing on youtube

When I saw him in Houston, I would guess there were 10,000 people there,
but I was sort of surprised that he's performing tomorrow night at the
Norman Public Schools Performing Arts Center.

Which brings me to my poll. I can't EVER remember since the major
renovation seeing a relevent jazz or acoustic or vocal act come to the Civic
Center for a concert. Before the renovation, I saw LOTS of them.....

There are hundreds of acts that could never fill the Ford Center or
even half of it, but could nicely fill two shows at the Civic Center and with
it's great acoustics, it would be a night to remember. Wednesday night,
Alison Krauss is playing the Ford Center, but they're blocking out half of it......
and it's pretty much sold out, but this lady's talent will be ruined by the
Ford Center's rotten acoustics, and she could have gotten the same
head count by playing a two night engagement at the Civic Center and everyone
would have seen a concert worth remembering......

So there you are..........is the Civic Center doing a good job at promoting
to mid range MUSICAL talent?

or not

and if not, who at the Civic Center or the city should be contacted to improve
matters. I for one think that after 77 million dollars of OUR tax dollars
were used to rebuild the joint, that we ought to be seeing some shows there
outside of Fiddler on the Roof once a year.......

Amen zulu...99% of the events at the Civic Center are foo foo crap for which I have no interest in ...I'm guessing it's a mixture of crap venues and lack of solid promoters that force us music fans to head up north an hour and a half...That really sucks on weeknights

The civic center is a great place for music...Unfortunately they don't use it for it nearly enough

A friend emailed me about Tommy Emmanuel the guitarist coming to town for a conert Monday.
This guy is widely considered to be the greatest acoustic guitar virtuoso EVER,
he's got 10 albums to his credit......I saw him in Houston and it was one of
the greatest shows ever......
There are a lot of videos of him performing on youtube

When I saw him in Houston, I would guess there were 10,000 people there,
but I was sort of surprised that he's performing tomorrow night at the
Norman Public Schools Performing Arts Center.

Which brings me to my poll. I can't EVER remember since the major
renovation seeing a relevent jazz or acoustic or vocal act come to the Civic
Center for a concert. Before the renovation, I saw LOTS of them.....

There are hundreds of acts that could never fill the Ford Center or
even half of it, but could nicely fill two shows at the Civic Center and with
it's great acoustics, it would be a night to remember. Wednesday night,
Alison Krauss is playing the Ford Center, but they're blocking out half of it......
and it's pretty much sold out, but this lady's talent will be ruined by the
Ford Center's rotten acoustics, and she could have gotten the same
head count by playing a two night engagement at the Civic Center and everyone
would have seen a concert worth remembering......

So there you are..........is the Civic Center doing a good job at promoting
to mid range MUSICAL talent?

or not

and if not, who at the Civic Center or the city should be contacted to improve
matters. I for one think that after 77 million dollars of OUR tax dollars
were used to rebuild the joint, that we ought to be seeing some shows there
outside of Fiddler on the Roof once a year.......
I can't find a single thing online about tommy emmanuel performing in Norman tomorrow. Can you direct me to some info?

The Civic Center's marketing department it sounds like, needs
to do some headhunting for a "marketer to the promoters".........
someone who can demonstrate to some of these mid range
talent booking agents that the Civic Center can and will provide
an audience for these musicians. They need to feed off the success
of the Ford Center in terms of ability to sell out......(The Ford Center
is rated one of the top ten concert venues in the nation in terms of
market penetration)

It's sad that the Civic Center has truly world class acoustics and the single
only musical act on their calendar for the next YEAR is taking place
at stage center, which sounds like a prison cell block..........

We need a marketeer for the Civic center who is largely compensated on
how many acts he/she gets in the door. They have PLENTY of room
on the calendar.......and the current staff just isn't getting it done......

3 years ago, Don Henley was scheduled to play the Civic Center and
called in sick instead and after that....I've hardly seen ANYONE advertised....

If the venue was good enough for Don Henley, then it should be good
enough for X, Y and Z acts...........

Here's the website for Tommy Emmanuel in Norman:

www.standingovationok.com:luralura (http://www.standingovationok.com/)

I know the ten tenors have a 2 week period booked there in January of 2008. I don't know if you would consider this foo foo or music? Maybe both? I've seen them live already and they really aren't very foo foo. Guys if you have to take your lady to an opera...this is the one to catch. They do everything from Pavarotti to Queen!! They make it very entertaining also.

Foo Foo huh....tell that to the tens of thousands of people that attend events there every year. Did you know that just in the Musicals, OKC has 12,000 season ticket holders? Did you know that the tickets for the more than week long run of Wicked that just ended were sold out in a matter of hours?

Oh and maybe you forgot about Wynton Marsalis playing there when it opened.

Or how about the Philharmonic, Canterbury, Ballet OK, Lyric Theatre, etc. all of which have thousands of people completely fill the place all the time. Perhaps you just aren't aware of the events that occur there. And I'm not sure where someone got that the musicals next year are at the Stage Center because that's so completely wrong I won't even comment more on it.

I think people need to educate themselves on how busy the place is. It may not be the kind of even that YOU want to see there, but that doesn't mean that there aren't thousands and thousands of people headed down there every week to see something. You can't really look at the calendar on the civic center site though. It's never up to date on what's happening because many of the ongoing events like the Phil aren't always on there.

Oh, and just so you know, Celebrity Attractions does the same promoting in Tulsa. And generally, the same show will be in both cities, just not in the same year. One exception was Blast! being in both cities the first time it came here. But one example is Wicked, it ran in Tulsa last year, and then OKC this year. They do a great job of getting quality musicals here in town...and because of the subscriber base (that is higher than in most cities twice our size), they can get what they want.

Did you know that the tickets for the more than week long run of Wicked that just ended were sold out in a matter of hours?

16 sold-out shows in a matter of hours.

Oh, and just so you know, Celebrity Attractions does the same promoting in Tulsa. And generally, the same show will be in both cities, just not in the same year. One exception was Blast! being in both cities the first time it came here. But one example is Wicked, it ran in Tulsa last year, and then OKC this year. They do a great job of getting quality musicals here in town...and because of the subscriber base (that is higher than in most cities twice our size), they can get what they want.

Not talking about musicals bomber...talking about booking quality mid major musicians like Tulsa gets all year long

And yes I do consider Wicked as foo foo

Mid major musicians? The OKC Phil does a pretty good job booking top-named musicians from around the world.

But y'all probably aren't talking about the Phil :)

Yeah, like Bebe Neuwirth, even though she apparently disappointed.

She's a pretty big name.

I'd like some examples of these mid-major artists that we're not getting.

Bebe Neuwirth??....Way up there on the foo foo list

What I mean by mid major is every band short of the major artists who can fill the Ford or Cox

Most NEVER stop of in OKC for one reason or another

I'd like some examples of these mid-major artists that we're not getting.

Here's some similar sized venues in CA that might help you get a feel for the theater circuit that is not serviced in Oklahoma City.

Wiltern (http://www.livenation.com/venue/getVenue/venueId/1237)
Warfield (http://www.livenation.com/venue/getVenue/venueId/1198/)

You could also look up any House of Blues to get an idea of what skips OKC as well. Really this size is where most of the live music is happening these days. The arena circuit has shrunk to a handful of acts each year, most of which have been around for at least 20 years.

I'm not saying the Civic Center has to be the place to get Oklahoma City to show up on the theater size concert circuit, but it is pretty much our only true music venue of that size. It does seem to be intent on staying within a small niche and it fills it well, but that doesn't mean it needs to be or should be restricted to that niche. Honestly, I would much rather see a more appropriate venue emerge that's dedicated to touring concerts of that size (Continental anyone? Oh wait, too late...). So, maybe complaining about the Civic Center's line up is misdirected, but there just isn't anywhere else to direct it right now.

Again, the coca-cola center is there, but it's no acoustic improvement over the Ford Center as its not really built specifically for performing arts either. Really, it’s under-use only shows the lack of effort or, possibly, support for such shows. However, you would think Oklahoma City is big enough now that it could support shows of 2-2.5k people for any marginally well known band.

Or, maybe not. It’s often hard to tell sometimes what kind of entertainment market we have here.

Bomber,

Noone said musicals were being advertised at the CC and playing Stage Center,
but next week Eric Johnson is performing, another world class guitarist,
and he's NOT playing at the Civic Center, he's playing at Stage Center instead.
That's the only mid range musical act outside the philharmonic on their
calendar or anyone else's for the civic center now or in the future......

Wynton Marsalis at the opening???????
That was in 2003!
What since???????
Did he ever come back???, how bout his brother Branford??

If not, why not.......???

When the Civic Center was designed, a consultant was paid in excess
of $1 MILLION DOLLARS!!!! to consult just on acoustics and after another
6 million extra being invested on top of the original 70 million dollar budget,
we now have an auditorium capable of showcasing any musician's talent
in a way that no other venue could in this part of the country, and what
are we doing with it?????? Showtunes......philharmonic........Showtunes......
Eric Johnson at Stage Center........
Nothing wrong with any of that, but if you have to look as far back
as Wynton Marsalis at the opening to find an example of a mid range musical
act without costumes and dancing, then our Civic Center is being underutilized....

Examples you want of mid range musical acts?

George Winston
(He filled the Civic Center before the remodeling in 1996)
He comes three months ago and plays at the Jazz lab in Edmond
for 30 bucks a head????? WHY???????????

Michael W. Smith
(He filled a church in tulsa, AND okc three months ago.......why not the civic ctr???

Steven Curtis Chapman
(He filled Redhawk Stadium 1 year ago, why not ever the civic center

Wynton and Branford Marsalis
Rippingtons
Dave Koz
David Sanborn
Diana Krall
Tommy Emmanuel.....

Given the time and inclination, I could add literally 10,000 other examples
to this list of acts that could fill the civic center, but have not, because
they've never come!!!

Noone ever said the place isn't hopping, Godspell, Annie, Millie.........seen
em all........

All we're saying is that a world class CONCERT HALL, ought to have
a concert every now and again not consisting of the Philharmonic..........
(nothing wrong with the Philharmonic either btw)

Michael W. Smith
(He filled a church in tulsa, AND okc three months ago.......why not the civic ctr???

Steven Curtis Chapman
(He filled Redhawk Stadium 1 year ago, why not ever the civic center

I don't think those guys have any interest in playing a venue like the Civic Center.



Noone ever said the place isn't hopping, Godspell, Annie, Millie.........seen
em all........

All we're saying is that a world class CONCERT HALL, ought to have
a concert every now and again not consisting of the Philharmonic..........
(nothing wrong with the Philharmonic either btw)

You sure sound like you have a problem with the Philharmonic and musical theatre. I personally have not heard of any of those people you list except a few, so maybe this is just an issue of personal preference.

Yep (or should I say No for the vote, lol), I agree with everyone that the Civic Center is far far underutilized. It should have tons of concerts and operas all of the time yet it seems to hardly be open unless the Philharmonic is in season.

I hope the city leaders can do more to attract big name concerts and have them play at the civic center. Sure the touring circuit could stay at the Ford Center or the Cox, but the fine music scene should be rolling through the Civic Center.

Actually, OKC has several other fine theatres which are underutilized - one prominent example being the Kirkpatrick Theatre for Performing Arts at OCU. We need to make OCU more part of the community - it is OUR university (not that OU isnt, but that is in suburban Norman while OCU is right in central OKC). OCU has lots to offer in the way of concerts, plays, theatrical performances, and sporting events yet I doubt much of the city is even aware of what's there.

There's great space in OKC like the Civic Center downtown and the Kirkpatrick Theatre (also the Wanda Bass Music Center) that isn't being utilized but should be. There should be all sorts of fine music going on, which would significantly boost OKC's image as an upscale city!

Instead of meaningful dialogue, this has descended into
a flamefest over musical tastes and people advocating
no musical acts who are not guests of the Philharmonic.

Haven't heard of anyone on my list? Make your own list.....

One thing is for certain, if it's not Wynton Marsalis at
the grand opening, or a guest of the Philharmonic,
then they haven't been to the Civic Center since the remodel......

We all LOVE the Philharmonic. OKC is lucky to have one....many cities
don't.....

We also love Broadway Muscials.....OKC is lucky to have them........many
cities don't......

But we have a WORLD CLASS CONCERT HALL, and in terms of dedicated
concerts with any sort of frequency, this facility has seen a lot less
activitity since the renovations than it did before, and 77 million dollars
of our tax dollars say that it shouldn't remain......

Why is it that saying something should be better and more, means
you automatically must be accused of saying that what's here now is
wrong and less?

All I'm saying is that it seems pretty booked up to me and I'm not convinced that your not being a little biased simply because they just don't bring in the performances that you would like to see.

Whereas if all those acts were coming in and that was preventing things like Wicked and Rent and Phantom of the Opera from coming in, I'd be dissatisfied.

Although, I would prefer to see a good mix, and don't forget the Civic Center also has two smaller theatres in addition to the Thelma Gaylord Performing Arts Center. I agree it seems SOMEONE isn't doing their job.

[QUOTE=jbrown84;105367]All I'm saying is that it seems pretty booked up to me and I'm not convinced that your not being a little biased simply because they just don't bring in the performances that you would like to see.

_____

You're right, I must be incredibly biased to want to see SOMEONE.............ANYONE
give a concert at the Civic Center. Right now there's noone, ever!

Whereas if all those acts were coming in and that was preventing things like Wicked and Rent and Phantom of the Opera from coming in, I'd be dissatisfied.

_____

Now that statement has no bias to it at all.......

________

I think the Civic Center should aspire to have ONE dedicated concert
act a month. I really think that will allow more than enough dates
for Annie, the Phantom and all their friends.......along with the Philharmonic
and all their guests........

And as to bias for acts "I" want to see.........let's change it and use
the list you want to provide.....as long as they are dedicated concert acts,
not musicals, because "THAT'S" what the poll's about......
and if you're not into anything but showtunes, then I'd submit that
many others in Oklahoma City might be into concerts, and would like to hear more than ONE A YEAR in the acoustics of the Civic Center........

Anyone who discounts those acoustics should go listen to any of these
broadway shows or the Philharmonic at the Ford Center, and then
it'll be clear........

I don't know what your problem is.

I clearly said that if the roles were reversed, I'd be biased as well. And maybe biased isn't the right word. I just mean that it's possible someone is completely satisfied with the Civic Center's offerings, and a completely different person might be satisfied if all they offered were these mid-major performers and no musicals or traveling shows.

The Beacon is another good example:

Beacon Theater New York NY - tickets, seating chart, info at New York City Theatre.com (http://www.beacontheater.net/)

You know, another place that seems to rest on its laurels is the Zoo Ampitheater. Maybe it's not big enough or nice enough, but we also miss a lot of outdoor concerts that go to ampitheaters like the Smirnoff, Coors, Shoreline, etc. It's very rare you get any act there whose vintage is not at least 20 years old. But, again, maybe we're just an older market as far as entertainment goes. Maybe our younger demographic isn't into live music or it's just too small...?

Admittedly I don't get out much but seeing Yo-Yo Ma in person at the Civic Center is still something I occasionally remember with great fondness. The facility is very, very nice - especially from what I remember as a much younger person. But I don't the capacity. Is it actually large enough for the concerts that are being discussed? I know some events require a pretty decent attendance. I think the Yo-Yo Ma event was underwritten, too.

Is it actually large enough for the concerts that are being discussed?

At about 2500 capacity, it's bigger than the first two teaters I listed (Warfield, Wiltern) and about 600 smaller than the Beacon.

For comparison, the Met is 3800, the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion in LA is about 3100, as is the San Francisco Opera House.

Hi all,

I hope to be able to shed some clarification here.

Before I took on my role with the Parks Department, I worked for 3 years with the Civic Center Foundation, a private, non-profit group in support of the Civic Center. We tried to start a new concert series, but found it logistically to be nearly impossible for a multitude of reasons.

The Civic Center Music Hall is booked more or less close to 300 days per year by its RESIDENT artist groups; namely, Celebrity Attractions, OKC Philharmonic (Pops and Classics), Lyric Theatre, Canterbury Choral Society and Ballet Oklahoma. What many don't realize is that some of these dates are rehearsal dates that are booked several days before a show opens.

Unlike touring companies, which are set up to "go" in any theatre at any time, these local groups are limited in their options to find premium rehearsal space, and opt to rehearse in the hall, if for no other reason, than it can greatly elevate their own performance level. For example, the Phil rehearses in the hall because no where else can duplicate the exact sound that you can find in the CCMH. It is, per national standards, a near-acoustically-perfect performing arts facility - on par with some of the best performance halls in the world. Why would a company want to go elsewhere when they can tune their show to be acoustically perfect in the hall in which they'll perform?

The downside to this is that these rehearsal dates take up POTENTIAL available touring dates.

There are other pertinent issues:
1. Many acts (esp. in summer) WANT a large arena-type show. The CCMH, with its 2,481 seats, was just TOO small for them, and they would rather play in a 2/3-empty Ford Center with the curtains drawn than in a more intimate venue which would make a better experience for the fan. The reason here is simple - money, folks. Promoters can put together a tour with a higher per-show guarantee ifi they book in an arena, and still charge a lesser ticket price per person because they can recover their costs in volume. Higher volume in many instances just means higher profit margins.

2. Let's face it, scheduling around tour dates is a b*tch. The planets have to be aligned just so in order to make it work. In our case, they had to be touring in our part of the country when we happened to have a date available. We attempted on many occasions to bring in top-name talent, and would get a preliminary hold on a date, only to have the tour "re-routed" on us where we could no longer accommodate that date, or the tour would decide to skip OKC altogether.

3. The upsurge in the number of casinos and the competitive market they are creating is proving near-disastrous. A casino can bring in an act such as a B.B. King, pay him "top dollar" (as opposed to a negotiated rate) then charge a minimal - or in some cases - no ticket price, because they know they will recoup those monies in liquor and gambling. Not so with the CCMH. If a promoter of a one-night musical act can break even without charging $80 or more for a ticket, they're doing really, really well.

Let's look at Jeff Foxworthy, for example. Last year, his asking price (artist guarantee) was $100,000. Assuming his tech rider and show cost (including "rental," box office fees, tech fees, union labor, etc.) was not more than $25,000 (that's a low-ball, folks), then the total show cost was $125,000. The promoter would have to sell out at a $50 ticket price TO BREAK EVEN. Even if they charged $75 per ticket (Seinfeld's ticket cost), they would only make approx. $40,000 that night, after expenses. If this same show were held at the Ford Center, where they could bring in 7,500 or more people at that same $50 ticket price...that's a quick $375,000 night!

5. Some acts proved to be simply cost-prohibitive, and the ticket prices required to fill the house were deemed out of the general market range for a CCMH show.

6. As for jazz and other similar shows, jazz has not EVER done well in OKC on a large-scale format. We've never been able to keep a jazz radio station alive, and jazz shows just don't do very well, except for those few break-through artists like a Diana Krall ($100k asking, plus show expenses) and/or Michael Buble (not sure how he did money-wise, but they sold out the hall in a few hours.

It is an EXPENSIVE business folks, and many acts and / or promoters do well to break even, much less make a profit. Even B.B. King the last time he was in the CCMH TOOK A LOSS (only around $7,000), but it was a loss nonetheless.

Until the market changes drastically (promoters and record companies decide it's all about the fan experience and not the gross amounts of money they can make), I'm afraid big shows at the CCMH will be fewer and farther between. And I agree, it really is a shame. We are in many ways, just the victim of progress.

Jennifer McClintock
Parks and Recreation

Well, that still leaves 65 days... just kidding.

Thanks so much for the post. i have to say that is one of the best posts on a topic I've ever read here. We need more resident experts. :) You make some great points, especially about the casinos, who can almost use a show as a "loss leader". I cerainly will not direct my ire regarding live entertainment options in OKC at the Civic Center again (although I will still secretly wish there were more pop, rock, etc. there just because it does sound so good. I actually think the few rock shows I have seen there sounded even better than the Philharmonic does sometimes).

Again, very good and relevant information. Given all the economic and competitive factors you listed above, do you personally think that there is room for another theater in Oklahoma City geared towards acommodating concerts in the 2-3k size range? I think we have a good enoug infrastructure to accomodate club and arena tours, but not so much for the theater circuit.

The Civic Center Music Hall is booked more or less close to 300 days per year by its RESIDENT artist groups;

I figured as much, which is why I kept saying that it seemed pretty booked up from my view.

Thanks, Jen, for weighing in on this and providing great info. I think we should be VERY glad that we have these resident companies that keep the place full. Many cities are not so lucky.

I know the casino group in / near Shawnee is building a 4,000-seat performing arts space.

I also know that either Arts Council or Allied Arts conducted a study about three years ago regarding theatre ranges and sizes in the area. To be honest, I never saw the results of that, however, and so cannot comment on what those findings were.

Yeah, the casino's are bringing in some top names in music. Both Fire Lake Grand and Riverwind.

Parks Gal, great points, and an insider's track nonetheless.....

But the end result is world class acoustics and no dedicted concerts,
which is a real shame.....

I'd be curious to know how Don Henley justified an acoustic performance
there a few years back (it ended up cancelled due to illness), but as
I recall, tickets were a tick over 100.00 ea....

If we really do have 65 free dates a year, then they should try to give us
just 6 concerts a year (I DONT CARE WHO IT IS), but if they're an act
that the Civic Center could showcase in terms of acoustics, then they
could charge a premium ticket price and there might be people
who will be scared away, but I'm guessing with the proper promotion,
there would be at least 2500 who would come pay a premium for the
acoustics and the acoustics alone, which is ALL I care about in regards
to concerts at the Civic Center versus somewhere else.....

As an example, Alison Krauss is playing 1/3 of the Ford Center tomorrow night....
she's kind of a niche act, beautiful voice, bluegrass ensemble, grammy winner,
but not in the draw league of Martina McBride who will be playing the entire
Ford Center in July. It is well known that the floor of the Ford Center
sounds better than the upper sections, but even the floor is roughly 1/20th
the acoustic potential of the Civic Center for an act like hers.......

I just paid 125.00 per ticket on ebay to be on the floor, and if she had
been at the Civic Center, I would have paid as much as $300.00 and I'm not
alone......

so, I say give people a chance to say whether they'd pay 120.00
per ticket for a knockout acoustic concert at the Civic Center (pick your artist)....
That would be a 300k gross, which I'm sure would please just about any promoter....

I'm not saying the situation is ideal by any means, but a handful per year
is not a lot to expect. There were far more than that before the renovation,
and it didn't hold many more people then than it does now......

Zulu,

A couple of more points to contend with.

#1. The day after "Wicked" moved out (Sunday night/Monday), another performance group moved in (Tuesday). In between that time, CCMH staff had to clean and reconfigure the stage requirements as set in place by another large Broadway production. These are very labor-intensive and time-consuming shows, especially to do two back-to-back, as is in this case. Lyric is in rehearsal now for its summer season, which starts next Tuesday with the Centennial performance of "Oklahoma!"

#2. Season shows usually book out - or at least hold their dates - a year to 2-years in advance. Even if the full season line-up is not solidified by each of the performance groups, the dates are still held in place, with season contracts signed, solidifying those dates.

As it stands, the bulk of the remaining dates to book shows at the CCMH are Sundays and/or Mondays - NOT your best concert-going nights, especially if you are charging a premium ticket price.

#3. Touring shows usually only book 45-90 dates out, which is why they can be so troublesome. It can be a marvelous boon to facilities which have openings, but to those that don't, it is unfortunately, a loss. Regardless, the management has to weigh whether 'tis better to: 1) bring in a "rehearsal" date that it KNOWS will bring in money to the organization, and/or 2) keep an open date in the remote possibility that a promoter may come a'callin'. In most cases, the guarantee of some income is better than the risk of no income at all.

#4. The City is no longer in the business of actual show promotion, simply because it is such a high-risk enterprise. While CCMH staff does work closely with a number of promoters locally and regionally to book touring acts, we'd rather the promoters themselves assume the financial risk than risk tax-payers' dollars on a $150-ticket, Monday-night-show, that may prove a loss to us. Promoters are smart (most of them). They know when and at what price they can risk their dollars.

The reality is at this point, in most cases, when a touring show comes a calling, the dates are simply not available because they are already booked by the season shows.

Please do not blame this on laziness or incompetence of the CCMH workers. If you were fully able to realize the amount of work they put in to manage and operate a hall of this quality on a piece-meal budget and paltry staff size when compared to other facilities of this size and scope, you would be in awe. They work wonders with very, very little. For the record, the CCMH is one of the last-remaining municipal-run performing arts facilities in the U.S..

I assure you there is no lack of attempt on the part of the CCMH. What venue wouldn't want to bring in a "guarantee" of dollars from an outside promoter. But, if a date is not available, it's simply not available.

Well the heck with the Civic Center then...Sounds as if they are booked solid with money making artsy crap so I will move on to griping about other venues that allow quality musicians to continually bypass us

Just wish there actually were any other decent venues to gripe about :fighting3

Just one of the few drawbacks to living in this city I guess...Maybe in time when we land an NBA team of our own a House of Blues type of place will come a calling

I'm all on ParksGal's side here. Zulu's "underutilized" comment just doesn't have a place with the Civic Center. It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized". As she said, it's book basically every day of every year....where are you going to squeeze in some concert like that?

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for. It IS a mainly classical venue...and no one has ever tried to say that it isn't. AND it is doing EXTREMELY well with that label and audience.

I'm not sure how many times I can say that just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not working well. We do have other venues in town that can host events like you are talking about, so why aren't they being booked there?

Maybe the new Oklahoma Oprey would be a good place for the type of event you are talking about....but not the CC. And BTW, acts chose to play the Ford Center, they aren't forced into it. Companies do their job to recruit acts there just as the CC does. Plus, I'd rather not have the folks at those concerts at the CC since they would probably tear it up.

It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized".

I basically said that, and I got accused of throwing flames. :rolleyes:

Well the heck with the Civic Center then...Sounds as if they are booked solid with money making artsy crap so I will move on to griping about other venues that allow quality musicians to continually bypass us

Just wish there actually were any other decent venues to gripe about :fighting3

Just one of the few drawbacks to living in this city I guess...Maybe in time when we land an NBA team of our own a House of Blues type of place will come a calling

If you haven't noticed people in oklahoma city aren't very supportive of the music industry. THIS is the biggest problem with bringing shows here. Getting people to get involved is like pulling teeth. They would rather go to an open field country fest or butt rock fest and relive the past than support any kind of acoustic set or midsize show like you are speaking of. I have a feeling we could plop a House Of Blues right in the middle of OKC and give free parking and it still wouldn't sell out.

If you haven't noticed people in oklahoma city aren't very supportive of the music industry. THIS is the biggest problem with bringing shows here. Getting people to get involved is like pulling teeth. They would rather go to an open field country fest or butt rock fest and relive the past than support any kind of acoustic set or midsize show like you are speaking of. I have a feeling we could plop a House Of Blues right in the middle of OKC and give free parking and it still wouldn't sell out.

Very true kmf...Only likely sellouts in an OKC HOB would be country (Kill me please) and like you said a freakin Bon Jovi type of concert

Oh well...I'm comfortable with being one of the few in this town with good musical taste :irule:

Very true kmf...Only likely sellouts in an OKC HOB would be country (Kill me please) and like you said a freakin Bon Jovi type of concert

Oh well...I'm comfortable with being one of the few in this town with good musical taste :irule:

LOL. agreed. Although....I love my Bon Jovi. They are my secret guilty pleasure. However...I would much rather see an acoustic Jon and Richie show at a HOB than a full show at the Ford Center. I really don't like large arena shows.

I know what you mean though, I'm tired of my choices being some random country guy, some 70's person/big hair 80's name at the zoo, or a teenage hormone fest at the bricktown event center.

KMF, I would like to support local bands and go to concerts for good music. The problem is that I am 40 and don't go to clubs and such and don't know who the good bands are and where they are playing. I look at the gazette and that tells me where the bands are playing but I just don't know much about them. I voted yesterday for Aranda on the lollapolooza site because you asked me to but I did not know anything about them until yesterday. I also noticed that there were several bands from OKC on the list that looked pretty interesting. Maybe, just maybe, you could make a list weekly on the site to let us know who is worth seeing. I personally would like it and maybe other viewers would as well.

KMF, I would like to support local bands and go to concerts for good music. The problem is that I am 40 and don't go to clubs and such and don't know who the good bands are and where they are playing. I look at the gazette and that tells me where the bands are playing but I just don't know much about them. I voted yesterday for Aranda on the lollapolooza site because you asked me to but I did not know anything about them until yesterday. I also noticed that there were several bands from OKC on the list that looked pretty interesting. Maybe, just maybe, you could make a list weekly on the site to let us know who is worth seeing. I personally would like it and maybe other viewers would as well.

well, thanks for voting!

The problem with making a list for you is that musical taste varies so much that what might be a good show to me may not be a good show for you. Most people are one tracked when it comes to music - they either listen to rock, country, or whatever the radio tells them to listen to. I guess I could make a weekly list with different genres of music?? Or maybe I could feature a different local band every week?? I'm going to start a new thread on this topic and see what the overall opinion is because I would be more than willing to do any of the above.

You all have hit on another very important nuance regarding our market. Of our 19 "major" radio FM radio network stations in the metro, we really have an abysmal lack of programming variety.

Our 3 primary genres are:

Pop (includes CH/UrbanChUrban (KJ103 and Wild FM); Adult Alt (KYIS); Soft Pop (Magic 104)

Rock (includes Classic Rock (KRXO 107.7 and KQOB 96.9); Album Rock (KATT); New Rock (The Buzz)

Country (includes KXXY / KTST / KKNG) - and this is a REDUCTION of country stations. At one point, we had 5.

Outside of that, we have a smattering of other genres including Oldies, NPR, Classical and News/Talk. We also have a sports talk station that dominates the ratings for the male 24-54 demo, especially between August and April. With this lack of variety and agriegious lack of support for up and coming artists, including local artists, there should be no wonder our concert avails are suffering greatly - at any venue.

Most of the concerts I have attended over the past 3 years have been out of state.

I'm all on ParksGal's side here. Zulu's "underutilized" comment just doesn't have a place with the Civic Center. It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized". As she said, it's book basically every day of every year....where are you going to squeeze in some concert like that?

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for. It IS a mainly classical venue...and no one has ever tried to say that it isn't. AND it is doing EXTREMELY well with that label and audience.

I'm not sure how many times I can say that just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not working well. We do have other venues in town that can host events like you are talking about, so why aren't they being booked there?

Maybe the new Oklahoma Oprey would be a good place for the type of event you are talking about....but not the CC. And BTW, acts chose to play the Ford Center, they aren't forced into it. Companies do their job to recruit acts there just as the CC does. Plus, I'd rather not have the folks at those concerts at the CC since they would probably tear it up.

I saw Seinfeld at the Civic Center. It was a great show. The acoustics are outstanding at the CC and should be given more credit. I could have heard a needle drop on stage. But I sat next to a person with a 'Bad Company' shirt with holes and mutiple stains. Many times the rich/Old in OKC/Nichols Hills/Heritage Hills will see Phil/Theatre/musical in another Country or New York. Many Civic patrons will find poorly dressed individuals. This is a real turn off to our upper class, who were more inclined to go to the CivicC when a formal dress code was enforced or just acknowledged out of respect for the artists and venue. They go to venues in big cities and see people wearing ties and fit in. They have abandoned the idea of going to the old Civ to see major cultural shows. The Rich give more support for culture with private 'money' which controls The City and The Civic Center. We need to cater to these people...... not trying to be weird or anything.

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for..

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. There is just as much influence by a room's acoustics with amplified sounds as there is with unamplified sounds. And many performances at the CCMH use amplification. The theaters I listed above became music venues because they were old theaters that were built with more consideration for acoustic than your typical convention space. There is a MUCH better chance for controlled acoustics, whether amplified or not, in a place like the Warfield, the Wiltern, the Beacon, and especially OKC's CCMH because they were built for performing arts with acoustics in mine. The Coco Cola and the Ford Ceneter NEVER considered acoustic in their design or build and it shows. If they did, they completely failed.

Again, I saw Coldplay at the CCMH and the Ford Center. It's obvious which one sounded better and that was a direct result of the acustical reinforcements and materials that were used when remodeling the CCMH. I have been to musicals, classical performances by the Philharmonic, Pops shows, and two fully amplified concerts (coldplay and natalie merchant) at the CCMH. I know it may pain some of the designers to hear it (though it probably wouldn't surprise them), but, without a doubt, the two amplified concerts sounded the best in that room. By contrast, Phantom of the Opera, sounded very flat and unexciting compared with the Curran in San Francisco and much of it was amplifed as well. I have been to Philharmonic shows that were also flat and jumbled, but that probably has a lot to do with where I was sitting. Ultimately, a lot of it has to do with the engineers, but there is nothing about the CCMH that is not acoustically compatible with fully amplified rock, jazz, or pop concerts.

And as far as your home stereo goes, I can guarantee you it would sound tons better if you simply applied some of the same sound reinforcement techniques to your living room as were used in the CCMH redesign. You'd probably actually get more bang for you buck doing that than "upgrading" your hardware. The point is that amplification in no way mitigates the need for acoustic reinforcement.

I saw Seinfeld at the Civic Center. It was a great show. The acoustics are outstanding at the CC and should be given more credit. I could have heard a needle drop on stage. But I sat next to a person with a 'Bad Company' shirt with holes and mutiple stains.


I think that attire was probably more suited to a Seinfield comedy show. If this person had shown up at a classical music performance wearing a stained t-shirt, I'm sure the hoity toity's would wrinkle their noses... but chances are, none of them were at the Seinfield show.

On the rare occasion we are able to attend a symphony event we enjoy dressing up. It feels right for some reason. The Civic Center was really something I enjoyed very much. But probably as much as anything it is because I seldom have the opportunity and that makes it more special for me.

I think that attire was probably more suited to a Seinfield comedy show. If this person had shown up at a classical music performance wearing a stained t-shirt, I'm sure the hoity toity's would wrinkle their noses... but chances are, none of them were at the Seinfield show.


I would agree Karried. But overall the attendees are not the country club types anymore, so no more wrinkled noses. Its not a knock, but the last Phil performances I have seen this year all had poor attire. Im not trying to be an elitist with my view. I just feel the City(CC) needs to have a more formal environment for its most uppity of events. Many get away with sweaters and ect.- I have done the same purely because i realized the environment had changed.
No more debs and no more really, rich people anymore. I could care less about these people- but they give the image/support we need for these particular events. I sometimes hang out with these crowds and it is always shame whenever I bring up the Civ(with pride) and everyone acknowledges the great job the City did- but many havent even been to see a show yet! - Its their loss to me. I like to get jazzed up....sometimes(dirty artist from yuppy family). But I do miss the emphasis of detail like it was 10- 20 years ago.

Again, I saw Coldplay at the CCMH and the Ford Center. It's obvious which one sounded better and that was a direct result of the acustical reinforcements and materials that were used when remodeling the CCMH.

I was at the Civic Center show and I didn't even bother with the Ford Center show a couple years later 'cause I knew it would pale in comparison to the Civic Center show.

I'd love it if more bands I was into would play the Civic Center. It sucks having to see a great band in crappy venue like the Ford Center or Coca-Cola Bricktown Events Center.

I agree with those of you who say that an evening of the theatre should include people dressing up. The Civic Center used to regularly recommend (we certainly can't enforce) that people wear "church" attire.

Well, guess what?! So many churches now allow jeans, shorts, dockers, other casual wear, that this is now deemed appropriate in other once-dressy venues and events.

To me, this is a reflection of society as a whole. Gone are the days when you have do dress up to go to a lovely restaurant and see good live theatre.

On the flip side of that, I like to think this sense of "casuality" is, in fact, making the arts more accessible to people for whom it may not have been before. Those who perceived the arts as only for the rich or elite may now feel more comfortable going into the theatre because they don't have to dress"to the nines" for an evening of live classical music or a Broadway production. In the end, it's reaching the masses with fine arts performances that matters most.

If you still enjoy dressing up as I do, by all means, PLEASE do so. Perhaps this will influence those who choose not to engage in this behavior.

I was at the Civic Center show and I didn't even bother with the Ford Center show a couple years later 'cause I knew it would pale in comparison to the Civic Center show.

I'd love it if more bands I was into would play the Civic Center. It sucks having to see a great band in crappy venue like the Ford Center or Coca-Cola Bricktown Events Center.

Don't doubt the civic center Coldplay concert was better, but I can tell you the followup in the Ford Center was also a great concert...Huge videoboard and light shows and the band actually looked like they wanted to be there...Don't always get that attitude in the major concerts here in Okie land

On the dress front....I agree with the desire for people to remember how to dress at CCMH events. I wish they wouldn't let people in without at least khakis on. They way you dress has an impact on the way you act. If you dress in a hole-ridden stained shirt, you probably are less likely to act in a dignified manner at say the Phil. It just goes with that statement on "you are what you wear".

Now that being said, in response to people going to other countries and seeing similar CCMH events, let me remind you of the Royal Albert Hall in England. This is one of the premier venues in the world. They make it a point for their symphony concerts to attract the masses in whatever dress they choose. At those events (often televised here on one of Cox's HD channels), you will see someone in a sweatshirt next to someone in a blazer...but they're all getting along and enjoying classical music...and not just pops. So both sides can co-exist, but you have to stop putting a label on someone and assuming that they don't "get" what's going on because they are in a ugly shirt.

Sort of negate my own posting huh? Oh well.

The Beacon is another good example:

Beacon Theater New York NY - tickets, seating chart, info at New York City Theatre.com (http://www.beacontheater.net/)

You know, another place that seems to rest on its laurels is the Zoo Ampitheater. Maybe it's not big enough or nice enough, but we also miss a lot of outdoor concerts that go to ampitheaters like the Smirnoff, Coors, Shoreline, etc. It's very rare you get any act there whose vintage is not at least 20 years old. But, again, maybe we're just an older market as far as entertainment goes. Maybe our younger demographic isn't into live music or it's just too small...?

being part of the younger generation i can say were definetaly into live performances and are sick and tired of having to drive to dallas to see a good concert.... i kno their are ppl who like that 80's hair band stuff but i would like to see a concert from an artist who's made music after my birth.

Zulu,

A couple of more points to contend with.

#1. The day after "Wicked" moved out (Sunday night/Monday), another performance group moved in (Tuesday). In between that time, CCMH staff had to clean and reconfigure the stage requirements as set in place by another large Broadway production. These are very labor-intensive and time-consuming shows, especially to do two back-to-back, as is in this case. Lyric is in rehearsal now for its summer season, which starts next Tuesday with the Centennial performance of "Oklahoma!"

#2. Season shows usually book out - or at least hold their dates - a year to 2-years in advance. Even if the full season line-up is not solidified by each of the performance groups, the dates are still held in place, with season contracts signed, solidifying those dates.

As it stands, the bulk of the remaining dates to book shows at the CCMH are Sundays and/or Mondays - NOT your best concert-going nights, especially if you are charging a premium ticket price.

#3. Touring shows usually only book 45-90 dates out, which is why they can be so troublesome. It can be a marvelous boon to facilities which have openings, but to those that don't, it is unfortunately, a loss. Regardless, the management has to weigh whether 'tis better to: 1) bring in a "rehearsal" date that it KNOWS will bring in money to the organization, and/or 2) keep an open date in the remote possibility that a promoter may come a'callin'. In most cases, the guarantee of some income is better than the risk of no income at all.

#4. The City is no longer in the business of actual show promotion, simply because it is such a high-risk enterprise. While CCMH staff does work closely with a number of promoters locally and regionally to book touring acts, we'd rather the promoters themselves assume the financial risk than risk tax-payers' dollars on a $150-ticket, Monday-night-show, that may prove a loss to us. Promoters are smart (most of them). They know when and at what price they can risk their dollars.

The reality is at this point, in most cases, when a touring show comes a calling, the dates are simply not available because they are already booked by the season shows.

Please do not blame this on laziness or incompetence of the CCMH workers. If you were fully able to realize the amount of work they put in to manage and operate a hall of this quality on a piece-meal budget and paltry staff size when compared to other facilities of this size and scope, you would be in awe. They work wonders with very, very little. For the record, the CCMH is one of the last-remaining municipal-run performing arts facilities in the U.S..

I assure you there is no lack of attempt on the part of the CCMH. What venue wouldn't want to bring in a "guarantee" of dollars from an outside promoter. But, if a date is not available, it's simply not available.

Hi all. I found this forum while googling something else but very interesting topic that I would like to chime in on. I am a small independant promoter similar to the promoter that brings Tommy Emmanuel here. I deal with the same set of circumstances that all promoters deal with. Fritter Girl gave some really good insight to the process and issues that we face when booking acts in this town.

There are very few promoters here and they all have a niche that they fullfil. They all need access to rooms which are in short supply. I will take the Ford Center out of the discussion. I know nothing about it. It is out of my leauge.

Having done shows from the Sooner Theatre to the Will Rogers and several stops inbetween. Most recently the Stage Center once when the Arts Council managed it and once when the CCMH management company aquired the facility. I have never done a show that would require a venue the size of The Civic Center but I am working on a show at Rose State this fall.

I would like to clarify a few points that people don't seem to realize. Oklahoma City is not a major market. It is a routing point. Midweek shows are the shows that agents look to OKC to fill. On acts that are what some might call sure things can easliy be outbid by larger markets such as Dallas. I venture a guess that any weekend dates are booked by Live Nation.

Even if you aquire a date the guarantee for the artist is based on ticket price number of seats to sell, expenses then promoter profit is allowed. If there is any additional profit the artist wants to split that. 85/15% 85 to the artist.

Say your artist wants $10,000 guarantee you have 10,000 in expenses. After putting up $20,000 you get the first 15% that is $3,000.00 So anybody want to gamble $20,000 over several weeks hoping to profit $3,000.00. Trust me your odds are better in Vegas.

The real money is made on concessions and ticketing. That is what venues keep.
The Zoo doesn't make enough on ticket sales to stay in business they make it on beer.

I do it because I love music. Breaking even is the most I hope for. But I must walk in with the attitude. What are acceptable losses. Even non profits can't stomach the losses promoting music. I don't receive any concessions only ticket sales. I don't receive any Ticketmaster kickbacks. I don't lie about my expenses. If I don't sell tickets I loose money.

My experience with the CCMH management has been nothing but good. They are not the problem in this town. The problem is this is a small market. Not well supported by what population we do have. The Civic Center made it possible for me to see Ray Charles, Dave Brubeck, and Seinfeld. I think that is the kind of act that works there. I saw George Thorogood there as well and he was like a duck out of water.

So any body want to invest in a show? I have been looking for OPM to loose.

Been a while since I first posted here. I would like to update the above post. Last Friday night March 26th I saw and heard why the Civic Center Music Hall could be one of the best rooms for live music I have ever been to. Joe Bonamassa rocked the house in a bluesy kind of way. 1,500 in attendance. Probably one of the best concert experiences I have ever had. Having not been to many shows there I moved about the room and from every vantage point the sound was amazing. YouTube - Joe Bonamassa - "Blues Deluxe - OKC - 3/26/10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19uM2m4yMPA)