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Thread: Future highway or interstate expansion?

  1. #401
    Geographer is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    As far as 35 needing to be 10 lanes in Norman...that's just laughable. The latest AADT map out in 2011 shows a 98k cars/day at 35 and Indian Hills, and it drops off pretty substantially south of there. In comparison, Central Expressway here in Dallas, which is 10 lanes, routinely sees 300k/day.
    Amen brother.

    I recently moved to Dallas a few months ago for a job. Before we moved here, my wife generally just kind of brushed off my urbanism comments about everything ....but now she's a total urbanist because she sees what a total and absolute disaster car culture can place upon cities like Dallas/Fort Worth. She absolutely dreads the highway system because it's so large, overgrown, and unsafe. They actually post on those electronic billboards how many people have died on Texas highways in 2014.

    So in a way, living here has been a total win for me since my wife is now a total urbanist and wants a walkable community where she doesn't have to get in a car to do everything.
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  2. #402
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Well to be fair, a lot of OKC traffic problems are created by driving habits rather than the roads themselves. And yes, I agree that I-35 is wide enough for now. The suburbs aren't going away though and eventually it could need widened.

  3. #403
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    I35 is fine. They problem is the interchanges. Redesign those to be more efficient and traffic will flow smoother.
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  4. #404
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    The 235/40 interchange gets a little tricky if you are north of it heading south because there is only one lane going all the way through and there should be at least two. If you are going south on 235, the left lane goes east on to I-40, the right lane goes west on to I-40, the left lane goes all the way through and the right lane eventually turns in to an exit only lane for SE 15th street. Obviously the 240-35 interchange is a big issue but if they could have those two going all the way through, I think that would help with congestion as a bunch of people at once wouldn't have to change lanes.

  5. #405
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Traffic here is nothing. I lived in DC for 3 years. That traffic is bad.

    As far as expanding the interstate -- if we do that we just contribute to the problem. Understand that we're subsidizing suburbia when we do it. We widen lanes and more people move further out. Your commute time doesn't change, because you now live 20 miles further away. One big advantage of urban living is that you get to avoid that commute. You can't say "oh look how many people want to live in the suburbs instead of downtown" when you give huge government subsidies to negate the downside of suburban living.

  6. #406
    BDP
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    I think people need to realize that no one has a right to a short commute. You can not live 20 miles from your place of work and expect a 20 minute commute. And asking the tax payers to spend billions of dollars more on highways because they get annoyed when they have to slow down on their way home from work at 5:15 is completely irrational and selfish. I can't think of a bigger waste of money, especially because it NEVER solves the problem, or at least not to the degree people seem to think it should (and around here that apparently means never going below the speed limit for 20 miles at the busiest time of day). Honestly, it's hard for me to even understand the mentality that is the basis for this kind of reasoning.

    Hey, I think the commutes should be safe and reasonable, and that probably does mean addressing some of the really dangerous interchanges we have. But billions of dollars because people who chose to live far from where they work are inconvenienced for a few minutes at the busiest time of day? Wow, talk about an entitlement program.

  7. #407
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    IMO, the only real necessities are to bring HWY 9 up to near interstate standards and make 235 from 40 to 44 6 or 8 lanes. Do something about the rail road tracks sheesh. It would have been nice if there weren't so many left side exits also but that can be overlooked. Overall, the road conditions of the highways are pretty good.

  8. #408
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by zachj7 View Post
    IMO, the only real necessities are to bring HWY 9 up to near interstate standards and make 235 from 40 to 44 6 or 8 lanes. Do something about the rail road tracks sheesh. It would have been nice if there weren't so many left side exits also but that can be overlooked. Overall, the road conditions of the highways are pretty good.
    No reason to increase Hwy 9 to interstate standards. The plans are to eventually widen to 6 lanes at some point, but well after the current expansion from 77 east to Pott County.

    People keep spouting to add lanes when the congestion issues are choke points on the route that will continue to cause congestion regardless of how many lanes are added. If you want to fix Highway 9, then they should be putting in an overpass at 24th SW right before the 35 interchange. That light probably causes the most problems on the entire stretch. Even with typical rush hour congestion, I can still get from 24th SW to 24th SE in about 5-10 minutes. That's really not that bad.
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  9. #409
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    so the majority of you people just want to spew crap like "you're just helping suburbia" "traffic in DC is bad" "there is no substance behind what you stand by" ....

    alright... we'll see in 10 years where that gets us

  10. #410
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    so the majority of you people just want to spew crap like "you're just helping suburbia" "traffic in DC is bad" "there is no substance behind what you stand by" ....

    alright... we'll see in 10 years where that gets us
    You just can't keep expanding and expanding and expanding highways, man. Do you cure being fat by loosening your belt? No, you have to change something besides your belt size or pant size.

    "Finally, and most essentially: The main problem with traffic studies is that they almost never consider the phenomenon of induced demand. Induced demand is the name for what happens when increasing the supply of roadways lowers the time cost of driving, causing more people to drive, and obliterating any reductions in congestion. We talked about this phenomenon at length in Suburban Nation twelve years ago, and the seminal text, The Elephant in the Bedroom: Automobile Dependency and Denial, was published by Hart and Spivak seven years prior. For this reason, I will not take the time here to address its causes, which are multifold and fascinating. Since these books were published, however, there have been additional reports, all essentially confirming what we knew then. In 2004, a meta-analysis of dozens of previous studies found that “on average, a 10 percent increase in lane miles induces an immediate 4 percent increase in vehicle miles traveled, which climbs to 10 percent—the entire new capacity—in a few years.”

    The most comprehensive effort remains the one completed in 1998 by the Surface Transportation Policy Project, which looked at fully 70 different metropolitan areas over 15 years. This study, which based its findings on data from the annual reports of the conservative Texas Transportation Institute, concluded as follows:

    Metro areas that invested heavily in road capacity expansion fared no better in easing congestion than metro areas that did not. Trends in congestion show that areas that exhibited greater growth in lane capacity spent roughly $22 billion more on road construction than those that didn’t, yet ended up with slightly higher congestion costs per person, wasted fuel, and travel delay. The metro area with the highest estimated road building cost was Nashville, Tennessee with a price tag of $3,243 per family per year."
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  11. #411
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by venture View Post
    No reason to increase Hwy 9 to interstate standards. The plans are to eventually widen to 6 lanes at some point, but well after the current expansion from 77 east to Pott County.

    People keep spouting to add lanes when the congestion issues are choke points on the route that will continue to cause congestion regardless of how many lanes are added. If you want to fix Highway 9, then they should be putting in an overpass at 24th SW right before the 35 interchange. That light probably causes the most problems on the entire stretch. Even with typical rush hour congestion, I can still get from 24th SW to 24th SE in about 5-10 minutes. That's really not that bad.
    I disagree. Norman is in need for a quick way to get to East Norman from i-35. Other states like Texas would have upgraded HWY 9 to close to interstate standards years ago. When I lived in East Norman, it would easily take 10 minutes + to get to 35. You would just pray that all those lights would stay green but I think it only happened 1/30 times. During rush hour, it took even longer. Forget football and basketball games! 4 miles in 10-15 minutes doesn't seem very efficient. With the Research and Tech OU campus, retail and residential continuing to expand, transportation needs to expand with it. HWY 9 needs exits, entrances, and overpasses.

    I no longer live in East Norman so I don't have to deal with that anymore thankfully.

  12. #412
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    PP, where are the biggest issues with 235/77/35? I have driven that more times than I can count in 5:00 traffic and I think it is the 235/44/77 interchange, 40/235/35 interchange and 240/35 interchange. Would you agree with that?

  13. #413
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by zachj7 View Post
    I disagree. Norman is in need for a quick way to get to East Norman from i-35. Other states like Texas would have upgraded HWY 9 to close to interstate standards years ago. When I lived in East Norman, it would easily take 10 minutes + to get to 35. You would just pray that all those lights would stay green but I think it only happened 1/30 times. During rush hour, it took even longer. Forget football and basketball games! 4 miles in 10-15 minutes doesn't seem very efficient. With the Research and Tech OU campus, retail and residential continuing to expand, transportation needs to expand with it. HWY 9 needs exits, entrances, and overpasses.

    I no longer live in East Norman so I don't have to deal with that anymore thankfully.
    Well...I do live in East Norman and take Highway 9 every day. Driving it so much it is obvious where the issues are. Upgrading the 24th SW and Hwy 9 intersection would make significant strides in reducing congestion. Sure there are other intersections that can be improved by upgrading to an overpass, but not nearly as significant as the one I already mentioned.

  14. #414
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by venture View Post
    Well...I do live in East Norman and take Highway 9 every day. Driving it so much it is obvious where the issues are. Upgrading the 24th SW and Hwy 9 intersection would make significant strides in reducing congestion. Sure there are other intersections that can be improved by upgrading to an overpass, but not nearly as significant as the one I already mentioned.
    I was perplexed why they didn't redo this intersection when they started with the HWY9/I35 interchange redo. HWY9 needs an overpass over 24th SW right there and 24th SW should only be able to access HWY9 EB at that point and be accessed from HWY9 EB. It's just more ODOT nonsense that this single light causes such backups.

  15. #415
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    PP, where are the biggest issues with 235/77/35? I have driven that more times than I can count in 5:00 traffic and I think it is the 235/44/77 interchange, 40/235/35 interchange and 240/35 interchange. Would you agree with that?
    Nearly the entire highway starting from I-40 going southbound comes to a 10-15 mph screech. It starts to get better after 19th St. Exit in Moore from what I've noticed.

    I do agree that fixing this interchange would do wonders.

  16. #416
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geographer View Post
    You just can't keep expanding and expanding and expanding highways, man. Do you cure being fat by loosening your belt? No, you have to change something besides your belt size or pant size.

    "Finally, and most essentially: The main problem with traffic studies is that they almost never consider the phenomenon of induced demand. Induced demand is the name for what happens when increasing the supply of roadways lowers the time cost of driving, causing more people to drive, and obliterating any reductions in congestion. We talked about this phenomenon at length in Suburban Nation twelve years ago, and the seminal text, The Elephant in the Bedroom: Automobile Dependency and Denial, was published by Hart and Spivak seven years prior. For this reason, I will not take the time here to address its causes, which are multifold and fascinating. Since these books were published, however, there have been additional reports, all essentially confirming what we knew then. In 2004, a meta-analysis of dozens of previous studies found that “on average, a 10 percent increase in lane miles induces an immediate 4 percent increase in vehicle miles traveled, which climbs to 10 percent—the entire new capacity—in a few years.”

    The most comprehensive effort remains the one completed in 1998 by the Surface Transportation Policy Project, which looked at fully 70 different metropolitan areas over 15 years. This study, which based its findings on data from the annual reports of the conservative Texas Transportation Institute, concluded as follows:

    Metro areas that invested heavily in road capacity expansion fared no better in easing congestion than metro areas that did not. Trends in congestion show that areas that exhibited greater growth in lane capacity spent roughly $22 billion more on road construction than those that didn’t, yet ended up with slightly higher congestion costs per person, wasted fuel, and travel delay. The metro area with the highest estimated road building cost was Nashville, Tennessee with a price tag of $3,243 per family per year."
    If don't build new highways, you don't see new suburban growth. Something I know a lot of people don't care for on here. I do advocate for it.

    As for induced demand, why isn't Kilpatrick Turnpike backed up now? What about I-40 Crosstown? It doesn't fill up with cars except at the I44 interchange.

  17. #417
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Nearly the entire highway starting from I-40 going southbound comes to a 10-15 mph screech. It starts to get better after 19th St. Exit in Moore from what I've noticed.

    I do agree that fixing this interchange would do wonders.
    Right around the Shields exit southbound is where I have noticed it gets better and then it is smoth sailing going south unless you have a wreck or something.

    I honestly think reconfiguring the interchanges and changing the laws where people cannot text and drive and if they do, they get pulled over and fined would be better than any amount of widening. You can have 10 lanes on either side but if it narrows to two lanes in three places and every other idiot on the road is texting while driving, it won't clear up traffic.

  18. #418
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    What would also help is if people wouldn't drive slow in the middle or left lanes, if people learned how to yield to get on the highways and if people didn't yield to the people getting on the highways by either slowing down or getting in the other lane of traffic. So often I see people driving below the speed limit in all three lanes of traffic holding up the people behind them, or people having to get around slow people traveling in the middle lane. I don't know what happened in the last 15-20 years but it seems like everyone driving slow including OTR truckers are using the middle lane instead of the right lane.
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  19. #419
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Here is an update on current projects with one being expedited.

    Traffic disruptions ahead for Broadway Extension, I-235 in Oklahoma City | News OK

    Motorists on the Broadway Extension can expect renewed traffic disruptions beginning this spring as the state Transportation Department has moved up the starting date for the next phase of widening Interstate 235 to accommodate increased traffic.
    Bids will go out in January on a project to widen I-235 from NW 36 to just north of NW 50 in Oklahoma City, transportation officials said Monday.
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  20. #420
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Here is an update on current projects with one being expedited.

    Traffic disruptions ahead for Broadway Extension, I-235 in Oklahoma City | News OK
    Finally. Even back in the '90s I wondered why that area of I-235 was only four lanes. It's about time they widen it.

  21. #421
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    I really don't understand why they don't do the interchanges first and then the widening. If you add the flyover ramps and then the cloverleafs on the west side, widening everything will make the whole project come together faster. If you widen 235 up to 50th, you are still going to have a bottleneck at 44, it will just a be a little further north.
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  22. #422
    TheTravellers is offline Gold Member
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Finally. Even back in the '90s I wondered why that area of I-235 was only four lanes. It's about time they widen it.
    Goes back further than that, it's been a cluster**** pretty much ever since I've been driving (1981). Really sad that it's going to take over 30 years to fix it.

  23. #423
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    I really don't understand why they don't do the interchanges first and then the widening. If you add the flyover ramps and then the cloverleafs on the west side, widening everything will make the whole project come together faster. If you widen 235 up to 50th, you are still going to have a bottleneck at 44, it will just a be a little further north.
    I've been saying exactly this for years now. It makes zero damn sense that they rebuilt I-40 downtown and then out to El Reno, but the bridge to get over I-44 is still only two lanes. What the hell kind of planning is that? ODOT is seriously inept.
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  24. #424
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hemingstein View Post
    I've been saying exactly this for years now. It makes zero damn sense that they rebuilt I-40 downtown and then out to El Reno, but the bridge to get over I-44 is still only two lanes. What the hell kind of planning is that? ODOT is seriously inept.
    yeah... going from 5 lanes down to 2 is absurd.

  25. #425
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    Default Re: Future highway or interstate expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    so the majority of you people just want to spew crap like "you're just helping suburbia" "traffic in DC is bad" "there is no substance behind what you stand by" ....

    alright... we'll see in 10 years where that gets us
    Well, I can say what it will get us if we keep doing the same thing. We will keep seeing the same results. So, in ten years I fully expect us to have more people living farther away making longer commutes on bigger freeways.

    I know you're young, but you are presenting the same solution that has been used for 50 years. It's pretty safe to say that this time around won't be any different.

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