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Thread: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

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    hatrick36 is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    3 Posts on OKCtalk and I become politically notorious! Aren't yall jealous!?!

    For the record, i am not involved with any city committees, a city employee, or even a regular attendee at civic functions. I vote regularly, study political science, and work on the occasional political campaign. I am not a close associate of anyone on any of the MAPS committees.

    If someone agrees with my OPINION (which is just, like, my opinion, man) than I would agree they are also a moderately informed viewer of the electorate and constituent politics.

    I don't disagree with Dr. Shadid's point about ensuring that those benefiting most from the street car (downtown, midtown, bricktown, and environs) should be on the hook for a little more of the O&M. But the streetcar will benefit anyone who patronizes downtown, including janitors, waitresses, and suburbanites.

    WHAT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH, IS HAVING AN ELECTION (YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATIC ACTION) AND THEN RE-APPROPRIATING FUNDS TO SOMETHING THE VOTERS DIDN'T VOTE ON.

  2. #3327
    UnFrSaKn's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses


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    TAlan CB is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by hatrick36 View Post
    Dr. Shadid seems to be ignoring some fundamentals of political science.

    The older and wealthier an individual is the more likely they are to vote. Since the tax revolts of the 1970's and 1980's the American electorate has been generally unwilling to pass additional taxes.

    To really make public transit happen in OKC, there has to be a major focus on getting affluent whites to ride a public transit system. The focus has to be on affluent whites because they are the most likely voters, and therefore the demographic most important to engaging in the public transportation discussion. If affluent white voters buy into the system, then the O&M revenue source will be less of a struggle (whether general funds, user fees, a special BID along the route, commercial sources, or combination) because the politically influential have buy in. This analysis holds true both from a pluralist framework or elite theory framework.

    That leaves three major problems: 1) how to engage affluent whites to ride public transit rather than drive their cars--trains for some reason (possibly European travel?) don't have the stigma of buses, 2) how do you maximize access--you put it where there are the largest concentrations of work/entertainment so that suburbanites and outer-area city dwellers may still have a reason to ride, and 3) how do you maximize ridership--you have no fare.

    The attempt to refocus towards buses, while laudable, would undercut public transit in this city. Large numbers of affluent whites are HIGHLY UNLIKELY IN THE EXTREME to patronize a bus service no matter how dapper and gussied up. If the regularly voting public won't ride it, then public transit will continue to shuffle along in the same dilapidated way because no serious expansion of funds will ever be allocated to extended bus service.

    I'm proud to have worked on Doc's campaign, but this shortsightedness is distressing. I won't be walking door to door for him again.
    Or is it that you appeal to the entire community to support (through taxes, etc. ) this system for each of their own benefit? You are correct, free would encourage the greatest useage (but a very small fee would encourage responsibility). Though it is true that the more affluent participate more (regardless of their 'color'), it would be unwise to encourage just a part of the electorate. Even if thousands of affluent voters never once road the rail (or bus) it would still be a great benefit to them by keeping thousands of cars off the highways, and would encourage economic growth - thus subsidising their affluency. The concept that taxes don't already support the wealthy is rediculus. Roads, highways, streets - all created through tax. If you can afford a car you are supported, if you can't there is no convience to help you with your goal of becoming more affluent. Every group of society is helped when real accessibility is expanded. I think it is best to tie this concept in with roads as another aspect of transportation. Currently, it is limited - only those who can afford cars (motorcyles are not cheap either) are supported.

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    TAlan CB is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Who did not see this coming? When has any project in or near bricktown not brought out the greed in property owners, sometimes delaying growth for decades. But, the property is probably worth more (now) than they were offered, it will be interesting to see how this 'plays out' - and for how long......

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    Anonymous. is offline Participating Member
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    23.5 M is definitely too high. But 2.5 M is a low ball.


    I want this to happen just as much as anyone, but I understand Brewer is sitting on a gold mine - why should it be his fault that he scooped up the Depot back in the 90s for the cheap? Can anyone really blame him for not accepting 2.5M?

  6. #3331
    BoulderSooner is offline Platinum Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    Who did not see this coming? When has any project in or near bricktown not brought out the greed in property owners, sometimes delaying growth for decades. But, the property is probably worth more (now) than they were offered, it will be interesting to see how this 'plays out' - and for how long......
    if the property goes to condemnation and ED then a 3 person (maybe judge) panel sets the price the city will pay .. and it is binding

  7. #3332
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    $23.5 million is absurd. They will get more than $2.5 million but nowhere near that amount.

    The Brewers have done little more than squat on that property for 20+ years. In fact, it has been poorly maintained (I took a bunch of photos a few years ago), used primarily as a parking lot for their gain and they recently put up some awful electronic bulletin boards.

  8. #3333
    Just the facts's Avatar
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    Dr. Shadid is really reaching for straws. He is so far out there he might pull a muscle. It isn’t like OKC is the first city in America to implement a streetcar or even regional rail, but he seems to think that either we are or at least federal regulation is so impossible to abide by that the only logical solution is to scrap the streetcar and invest only in a bus system (which I presume would also prohibit BRT since it would go into white areas at a higher frequency than the non-white areas).

    If Dr. Shadid is really this concerned and the streetcar can't exist without major upgrades to the bus system then I would be in favor of just discontinuing the bus system all together, closing down COPTA, and creatng a new regional agency to rebuild mass transit in central Oklahoma from the ground up. I suspect however that Dr. Shadid might not be around after the next election anyhow.

    Heck, why can't the city just say they are re-implementing an existing service that was discontinued - after all, OKC had streetcars long before they had a bus.
    Third Place

  9. #3334
    BoulderSooner is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    $23.5 million is absurd. They will get more than $2.5 million but nowhere near that amount.

    The Brewers have done little more than squat on that property for 20+ years. In fact, it has been poorly maintained (I took a bunch of photos a few years ago), used primarily as a parking lot for their gain and they recently put up some awful electronic bulletin boards.
    i would bet that it ends up around 5 mil

  10. #3335
    hatrick36 is offline Participating Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    Or is it that you appeal to the entire community to support (through taxes, etc. ) this system for each of their own benefit? You are correct, free would encourage the greatest useage (but a very small fee would encourage responsibility). Though it is true that the more affluent participate more (regardless of their 'color'), it would be unwise to encourage just a part of the electorate. Even if thousands of affluent voters never once road the rail (or bus) it would still be a great benefit to them by keeping thousands of cars off the highways, and would encourage economic growth - thus subsidising their affluency. The concept that taxes don't already support the wealthy is rediculus. Roads, highways, streets - all created through tax. If you can afford a car you are supported, if you can't there is no convience to help you with your goal of becoming more affluent. Every group of society is helped when real accessibility is expanded. I think it is best to tie this concept in with roads as another aspect of transportation. Currently, it is limited - only those who can afford cars (motorcyles are not cheap either) are supported.

    I wasn't arguing for social justice. I was arguing that if someone is an advocate of public transit, they should support the street car because it increases the likelihood of public support for future transit initiatives of all forms.

    I also don't believe anywhere in my post i argued that we don't subsidize the affluent. I pretty much said we have to subsidize the affluent to achieve goals for average and low income citizens. This would be because i use elite theory to evaluate our political system at the municipal, state, and federal level. If you would like to discuss this in further detail, please pm me and I will send you some fascinating readings you may be interested in. Wikipedia also has a pretty nice article on "elite theory" if you want a quick overview and introduction the current thinkers.

  11. #3336
    Just the facts's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    ROFLMAO - Brent Brewer is out of his mind. I would acutally be embarrased to say $23.5 million. They bought it for $375,000 in 1998 so the bidding starts there. I suspect by the time they are done in court they will be wishing they took the $2.5 million offer.

    He even had a Latrell Sprewell moment.

    “We've been down here for so long, we just want it to be fair,” Brewer said. “This property is important to our family. These kinds of investments are starting to make a return for us, and at the end of the day, we want to be able to support our children.”
    I guess $2.5 million doesn't go as far in OKC as I thought it did.
    Third Place

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    The county assessor has the market value at just under $1.5 million.

    A fair price seems to be between $3 - $5 million. Asking $23 million is extortion.

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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses


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    Buffalo Bill is offline Participating Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The county assessor has the market value at just under $1.5 million.

    A fair price seems to be between $3 - $5 million. Asking $23 million is extortion.
    It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

    Don't think that would happen.

  15. #3340
    Dubya61 is offline Participating Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalo Bill View Post
    It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

    Don't think that would happen.
    Wouldn't that be an interesting trap. Let's say I'm trying to sell my house and set the price at $200K. County sees that and spot-adjusts my assessed value. After all, I'm there everyday and so I must have a better idea of it's value than the county, eh? Shock. Horror. Indignation. Shame over making a bed I wouldn't want to lay in.

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    Just the facts's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalo Bill View Post
    It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

    Don't think that would happen.
    Not only that but they should ask him how long he thought it was worth $23.5 million and then have him cough up back taxes.
    Third Place

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    okcboy is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
    a fair price thats in each others best interests.

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    BoulderSooner is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by okcboy View Post
    I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
    a fair price thats in each others best interests.
    or the city will just move forward with the ED process and a panel will set the fair price

  19. #3344
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    Quote Originally Posted by okcboy View Post
    I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
    a fair price thats in each others best interests.
    To the tune of $2.5 million per kid.

  20. #3345
    Urban Pioneer is offline Platinum Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Folks, if you really care about these issues, this is EXTREMELY important stuff here. Litterally a transcendental opportunity to fundamentally change how things are done. Enough with the pseudo controversy's for now. lol Let's get the inaction on rail issues out of ODOT.

    WANTING A BROADER RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM BEYOND MAPS 3 STREETCAR?

    Read this from Rep Charlie Joyner.

    These initiatives are happening now and needs your help!

    1. HB2180 would remove the Rails Division from ODOT and create the Oklahoma Railways Commission whose Commissioners, appointed by the Governor, would be rail experienced and knowledgeable. This act will not grow government but instead makes government smarter and more focused. Oklahoma is seventh in the nation in total tonnage, equaling 882-million tons per year shipped by rail into, from, or through Oklahoma and projections are for it to increase by 88% by 2030. There is also a huge interest in developing and expanding passenger and commuter rail in Oklahoma. I feel it is vital Oklahoma takes these steps looking to its future economic development and recognizing the success of the Space and Aeronautics Commission who was similarly established.

    2. HB 2187 establishes the ‘right of first refusal’ on the sale of any rail property owned by the Department of Transportation and being leased or operated by a private entity. This bill if enacted would protect railroad companies that invest millions of dollars in the lines they presently lease, as well as their shippers who have chosen to locate along those lines; shippers who count on the railroads as part of their supply chain and their distribution network. SB584 is a similar bill that I am supporting as the House Author. This is the correct thing to do when dealing with companies doing business with the state of Oklahoma.

    As the previous House Vice-Chair of Transportation and presently the House Chair of the Transportation Committee, I have been very involved on issues concerning our Rail industry in Oklahoma. This email is to advise you of the two railroad bills I have authored with Speaker T.W. Shannon as co-author and Senator Mike Schultz as the Senate Principal Author.

    Attached are HB2187 and HB2180 for your review. I ask for your support in my effort at strengthening the rail industry in Oklahoma. Please contact your senators, representatives, and Governor immediately, asking for interest and passage of these bills as they are moving through the Legislative process.

    Thank you for your consideration,
    Charlie Joyner
    Representative Charlie Joyner
    Oklahoma House of Representatives
    District 95

    CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE AND TELL THEM TO PASS THESE TWO BILLS!

  21. #3346
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I was just about to post that. They seem like very good bills and I hope they pass!!!!!

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    Tier2City is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Do you have copies of the bills?

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    I don't, but you can go search them here: WebForm1

    Enter either of these bills: HB2187 or HB2180

  24. #3349
    Buffalo Bill is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    Folks, if you really care about these issues, this is EXTREMELY important stuff here. Litterally a transcendental opportunity to fundamentally change how things are done. Enough with the pseudo controversy's for now. lol Let's get the inaction on rail issues out of ODOT.

    WANTING A BROADER RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM BEYOND MAPS 3 STREETCAR?

    Read this from Rep Charlie Joyner.

    These initiatives are happening now and needs your help!

    1. HB2180 would remove the Rails Division from ODOT and create the Oklahoma Railways Commission whose Commissioners, appointed by the Governor, would be rail experienced and knowledgeable. This act will not grow government but instead makes government smarter and more focused. Oklahoma is seventh in the nation in total tonnage, equaling 882-million tons per year shipped by rail into, from, or through Oklahoma and projections are for it to increase by 88% by 2030. There is also a huge interest in developing and expanding passenger and commuter rail in Oklahoma. I feel it is vital Oklahoma takes these steps looking to its future economic development and recognizing the success of the Space and Aeronautics Commission who was similarly established.

    2. HB 2187 establishes the ‘right of first refusal’ on the sale of any rail property owned by the Department of Transportation and being leased or operated by a private entity. This bill if enacted would protect railroad companies that invest millions of dollars in the lines they presently lease, as well as their shippers who have chosen to locate along those lines; shippers who count on the railroads as part of their supply chain and their distribution network. SB584 is a similar bill that I am supporting as the House Author. This is the correct thing to do when dealing with companies doing business with the state of Oklahoma.

    As the previous House Vice-Chair of Transportation and presently the House Chair of the Transportation Committee, I have been very involved on issues concerning our Rail industry in Oklahoma. This email is to advise you of the two railroad bills I have authored with Speaker T.W. Shannon as co-author and Senator Mike Schultz as the Senate Principal Author.

    Attached are HB2187 and HB2180 for your review. I ask for your support in my effort at strengthening the rail industry in Oklahoma. Please contact your senators, representatives, and Governor immediately, asking for interest and passage of these bills as they are moving through the Legislative process.

    Thank you for your consideration,
    Charlie Joyner
    Representative Charlie Joyner
    Oklahoma House of Representatives
    District 95

    CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE AND TELL THEM TO PASS THESE TWO BILLS!
    Doesn't look like this legislation will change the status quo. If Joyner is looking to repeat the "success" of the Space and Aeronautics Commission, that shouldn't be a problem.

    More layers of government.

    Joyner's resume looks like that of an uneducated Gary Marrs. Plus, his political talking points are old and tired. Federal government=bad, unless it pertains to keeping Tinker open. Please.

  25. #3350
    Urban Pioneer is offline Platinum Member
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    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    "Success" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure what your referring to. It is my understanding that small airports in small towns and cities have flourished as part of the Space and Aeronautics Commission.

    ODOT has done very little, if anything, to maximize the interest of the state as it relates to trains. In my direct experience, protecting corridors for anything other than freight is so far removed from their highway building priorities, a bit of independence couldn't even begin to make that worse.

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