I think some people are getting a little carried away thinking that Native American mascots are offensive. Schools like Florida State may have to change their mascot.

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"FSU presses forward with appeal of nickname prohibitionBy DAVID ROYSE, Associated Press Writer
August 10, 2005

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- Florida State University trustees voted Wednesday to appeal its inclusion on a new list of schools that won't be permitted to use American Indian nicknames or logos in NCAA tournaments.

The school's Seminole mascot was one of 18 the NCAA said it finds ``hostile'' and ``abusive.''

Florida State trustees and school officials say that putting the Seminoles on the list doesn't make sense because the Seminole Tribe of Florida backs the school's use of the name and various images associated with it, such as the Seminole chief on horseback that serves as a team symbol.

The trustees also voted to authorize possible court action if the appeal doesn't work.

``We will not stand by and let this happen without a fight,'' Board of Trustees Chairman Jim Smith said at an emergency meeting called to give university officials authority to move forward in fighting the new ban.

NCAA spokesman Bob Williams said the organization would gladly hear the university's appeal.

``That's certainly the process we set up, and they are welcome to go through the appeal process, and we welcome their input,'' Williams said.

Florida State Athletic Director Dave Hart said the NCAA's inclusion of Florida State on its list ignored the school's relationship with the tribe, which was recently ratified in a resolution by the tribal council. The resolution said in part that the university had ``permission'' to use the tribe's name and symbols, including its Seminole head logo.

``The terms 'hostile' and 'abusive' ... appear to me to be devoid of logic, reason and a genuine evaluation of that relationship,'' Hart said.

Despite the Seminole Tribe of Florida's endorsement, many Native Americans reject the idea that the use of Native American symbols honors the culture.

Charlene Teters, a National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media vice president, argued the point in a message posted on the group's Web site.

``Using our names, likeness and religious symbols to excite the crowd does not feel like honor or respect, it is hurtful and confusing to our young people,'' wrote Teters, a member of the Spokane nation. ``To reduce the victims of genocide to a mascot is unthinking, at least, and immoral at worst.''

Florida State President T.K. Wetherell said university officials were also angry that they hadn't gotten to argue to the NCAA about the school's links to the tribe.

``To have a ruling of this nature come down, when (neither) we nor the tribe were asked to participate in it.'' Wetherell said. ``That is offensive.''

Trustees also expressed frustration that they didn't know how the NCAA came to determine that its use of the nickname met the definition of ``hostile and abusive.''

``I sure want to see that definition,'' Wetherell said.

There was strong support on the board for suing the NCAA over the decision if the appeals process doesn't work. The school has already approached a lawyer who has said he will take the case.

At least one other school on the list has some support from Indian tribes for which they're named. Forrest Cuch, a member of the Ute tribe and executive director of the Utah Division of Indian Affairs, said earlier this week that he hopes the NCAA interprets its new rule loosely because the University of Utah respectfully uses the Utes nickname. Still, Cuch said he supported the ``spirit and intent'' of the new policy."

This is totally nuts. If they insist on banning American Indians, then ban the name Cincinnati Reds, Anaheim (California, Los Angeles) Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees, and any other name that can be taken as a dirgoatory remark.

Reds. Communist. Angels- (would offend athiests), Dodgers (any number of dirgoatiory meanings), Yankees (would offend the southerners)... Get the idea?

This is getting rediculous. Stop being so sensitive. These names and mascots reflect history and that is all. If you are offended, then do not support them. It is that simple.

I am part Chippewa Indian and I would NOT be offended by a team wanting to be called The Chippewa's. People in this country are taking things wayyy to far, lighten up, if you dont like it here, please leave.

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - The NCAA will allow Florida State to use its Seminoles nickname in postseason play, removing the school from a list of colleges with Native American nicknames that were restricted by an NCAA decision earlier this month


It's a start. Maybe if more schools that have the ok from the tribes will test the NCAA, more will be taken from the list.

Yes. We need to stop bowing to the pressure of the liberals. When that happens, then maybe all this crap will end. (retorical) Who cares what the name is? It could be a certain racial term that even I prohibit for all I care.

Well, to follow up on this schools that have the consent of the tribe in question are going to be able to keep their names.

This sucks for Illinios as Illini is a name that encompasses a large number of independent tribes.

Look no further than the Central Michigan Chippewas

This isn't a liberal or conservative issue. It's about do we allow racist and offensive behavior to continue just because of "tradition" of sports. It's NOT ridiculous any more than it was "ridiculous" for blacks to be offended at Aunt Jemima or Amos and Andy or other stereotypes that were hurtful.
Some are, obviously, worse than others. A team named for a specific tribe may be less of an issue. On the other hand, team names like "Redskins," which is a racist slur no less offensive than "the n-word" for blacks and mascots like the Cleveland Indians grinning cartoon are very offensive and should have been done away with long ago. The NCAA has taken a brave (if overdue) stance here. It's a pity they've caved in to pressure and backed off on a couple, but they're still taking a stand that needed to be taken. High school teams across the nation have been moving away from these names and offensive mascots and chants and other "traditions" for years. Others haven't. Chad Smith of the Cherokee tribe's been very clear about the damage of Union High School in Tulsa's use of the R-Word for their team, and his complaints have fallen on deaf ears. It's inexcusable and Union should be punished as a result.

Another factor to remember in this is that some of the "Indian stuff" these teams and fans mock aren't just traditions to American Indians, they have religious and spiritual significance. Some fat white guy in face paint waving a tomahawk and going "woo-woo-woo-woo!" at a Kansas City Chiefs game is as offensive as someone naming a team the Catholics and serving "Communion burgers" and having cheerleaders dressed in little miniskirts that look like nun habits.

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace, Kick the Dolphins in the face!"


One other thing...should this get called "Political correctness" (the most meaningless, idiotic, overused term in our current political vernacular) and people think it's some new thing, I think of one school that had a mascot that was offensive to Indians, similar to the "Chief" mascot of the Cleveland Indians. After complaints from the tribe, the school dropped the mascot and replaced it with another.

The mascot was named "Little Red."

The school? Some liberal Ivy League School? Someplace in California? Nope. It was the University of Oklahoma.

The date was April, 1970.

There is nothing "racist" with the name Seminoles, Warriors, Braves, or anything like that. If someone wants to make a racial issue out of it, then change the names of nearly every team in the nation.

Reds-communism
Flames-Derogatory remark or violence
Angels-offensive to Atheists
Devils-Anti religious
Fighting Irish-insult to Irish people
Cardinals-offensive to atheists
Cowboys-denotes rednecks
Grizzlies-Violence
Buchaneers & Pirates-violence
Vikings-insult to my people (Scandinavian)

I could go on and on. Get the drift?

Yes, there is. It's no less racist than having a team named the Mexicans, or the Negros. People shouldn't be made mascots based upon their race.

An absurd comparison. The Reds are named for a color (they were originally the Red Stockings) not Communists, Communists are not a race. Unlike the huge number of Indian groups who have complained about mascot names, not a single Communist group has complained about this.

Yeah, I get the drift. The drift is ridiculous and insulting. These are stupid, stupid, stupid. To tell someone that a name that is a racist slur to them is no worse than "Cowboys, which denotes rednecks" is absolutely a slap in the face. You don't care. You don't care at all to take this seriously for one second. It's a joke. If you can come up with LEGITIMATE response to this, some LEGITIMATE reason why a word that is no less racist than the word nigger should be allowed as a team mascot name, I'm all ears. Cardinals is insulting to athiests is 4th grader stuff, not legitimate discussion of the issue.

Does anyone who actually knows something about this topic care to give it a try? Does Anderson care to take it seriously instead of as some kind of joke? I assume you're white (and I'm not saying that's wrong, I am too) and never had to be the butt of racist jokes as a minority. To not care at all that others are offended by something is really ugly and wrong.
Nobody is "making a racial issue of it." It IS a racial issue. It's a justice issue. And it ain't going away. Hundreds of schools have done the right thing and dropped Indian mascots and names. Those who continue to refuse to do so will have a fight on their hands. For years it's been ignored by most people, or laughed off in the way we just saw in an insultingly light-hearted manner. Thank God a group with the authority and credibility of the NCAA has taken it on. The days of blowing this off with "nobody cares but a few Indians, and who cares what THEY think?" are gone. This is only going to get bigger. Schools who stick with these names are making an intentional public statement about their thoughts about Indian people.

You might think it is insulting, however, my point is simple. No matter what you call something, someone is going to be offended. So, we should just leave things alone.

The examples are not rediculous or anything like that. And, yes, technically the reds were after the color, however, if you were Russian, how would you feel with the conotration? They are examples of how people could feel.

No, I don't think it, I know it.

That's flabergasting. Under that standard, a team COULD be called "the Norman Niggers" and you'd have no objection.
No, we should NOT just "leave things alone." The examples you gave were a joke, not serious examples of offensive names. Cardinals? They are named for a COLOR, and their mascot is a BIRD. Athiests being "offended" by that is NOT comparable to a racially offensive name or mascot.

Ridiculous.

And they are EXTREMELY ridiculous, and you bloody well know it, that was your POINT, to come up with the most extremely ridiculous examples you could, trying to indicate that an Indian being offended at a racist nickname is ALSO that ridiculous.
Which is absolutely false.

I would, of course, laugh loud and long at the absurd thought that it would be offensive to me as a Russian for a team to be named "the Reds."
A more appropriate comparison would be to ask if I were Japanese would I be offended at a team called "The Japs."
And the answer, of course, is yes. But that wouldn't happen, would it? Nor would a team called the Pollocks, or the Chinks, or the Spiks or Wetbacks or whatever other racial slur one could think of. The ONLY group people seem to think it's OK to insult in this fashion is American Indians. And until now, the ones who've complained about it have been ignored.
Those days, thankfully, are over.

No, they couldn't. They wouldn't, which you fully know. The ONLY one even VAGUELY legitimate is Irish, and while there's not been a lot of attention paid to it there have, on occassion, been Irish groups critical of the name. And there may be a time when that comes up for discussion.
But no, comparing a racial slur to calling a team "Pirates" is not anything but a silly joke.

Some people take this so personally. Heck, I could be offended because my mother's family is from New York......I could take offense to the name Yankees.

There's nothing racist with these Indian names. If you think Redskin is racist, then I suppose the name of our state is racist, because it means land of the redman.

To deny that there is a distinction between something that is innately insulting based on its sterotyping of an ethnic group and someone being offended by "Cowboys" is either ignorance or willful insensitivity. They are not on the same plane.

Additionally, I'm not sure the Russians identified themselves as "reds," so I doubt they would find that team's name offensive. It's a silly example.

I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. This is not an opinion that I disagree with, it is a factually untrue statement. Redskin IS a racist slur, equal to nigger. Are you going to tell a black person that being called a nigger is no worse than being called "Yankee"? Of course not. These ARE racist, there is not question about that. The only question is, do we keep ignoring it, or do we do something about it. I think from a matter of simple justice we CANNOT ignore it.
It's GREAT, in spite of the ugly tone of a lot of the discussion on boards like this and on sports radio, that at least it's come up as an issue. I think the vast majority of sports fans never KNEW this was an issue, never KNEW that there were people (and have been for many years) fighting against this, never even knew (as we see, sadly, here) that Redskin IS a racist slur. Getting past that lack of knowlege is half the battle.

The use of redskin and the use of red man are different. I've always thought the team's use of redskins was messed up. I don't think using the marcots are particularly offensive to people for the most part. It is discerning how it is portrayed and respected(or not).

ColumbiaCowgirl, how about you grow up already and move out of your momma's house.

The fact that you find it as being racist shows that you yourself are obviously either very immature or just plain stupid. You sound racist yourself, trying to steroetype everyone else. in no way is naming your team the Seminoles like calling someone a n*****.

Ohmygod!

The stars have converged for an experience that happens once (maybe thrice) in a lifetime! I am more inclined to agree with MrAnderson than I am with Scribe! I think that ALL people in this country have become WAAAY too sensitive. Being "politically correct" is en vogue.

How about this for a compromise (and, BTW, I don't see this as a "liberal" or "conservative" issue at all):

Let the issue to be resolved by the involved state/locale ...

In a particular state/locale ...

IF it appears that a significant portion of those who would consider themselves to be affected would take offense to a team name and/or mascot, don't use the name. OTOH, if it appears that only a fringe group would feel that way, and there are "fringe" groups in any mix of cultural identifications, aren't there, then use the name and honor the sensitivies of the consensus of that group, if a concensus exists.

In Oklahoma, my understanding (and, though I went to both schools, I'm an OSU guy at my core so I can't and wouldn't care to speak for OU people) is that the vast majority of Native Americans actually liked the former "Little Red" mascot, even saw it as a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong. My wife is a Native American and, I think (it's been a while since this topic was "hot" in Oklahoma, and I may have forgotten something) neither she nor many Native Americans here were offended ... and that they actually "liked" the Lil' Red OU mascot. That's something that has gone by.

In Florida, I have no clue whether the FSU "Seminoles" causes heartburn or delight amongst the Florida Seminoles ... but what's your guess (whether you be a Native American or a non-Native American guesser). My guess is that the Florida Seminoles LIKE it in the main. Maybe I'm wrong. But, I doubt it.

Native Americans are a proud people. My European ancestors stole their land, didn't keep their treaties, etc. etc. etc. They have a whole shitload of very legitimate grievances which will not likely ever be made "right" ... but I'm wondering if the name of a school team or mascot is one of them, as long as they agree that it is not.

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