In this thread we discuss personal encounters with hypocrites

[Patrick]

Give us your personal encounters.

[bandnerd]

"Oh, we'll be sure to pray for you." (insert fake-sounding "I care" voice here)

Then, on the street, those very same people won't even make eye contact with you or give you the time of day because you aren't good enough for them or worth their time. But they'll be sure to pray for you...and gossip about you behind your back.

People did this to my mom back home. They did it to me. I know not all church-goers are like this, I'm simply answering Patrick's question.

[HenryRubin]

Same experience here, my whole life.... weird.

[ChristianConservative]

I pray for people when I tell them I'm going to. What's wrong with that?

[bandnerd]

Nothing wrong with that, Conservative. I personally feel uncomfortable when people say that to me, but if they're going to, then they're going to.

My problem was always that these people would treat myself and my family like dirt, but "we'll pray for you." People, we don't need your prayers, all we want is some civility, here, not your damn pity.

But I grew up in a very small, very gossipy town that had nothing better to do than to pick at people behind their backs. If you weren't part of the "in" crowd (how silly in such a small town) then you were worse than the dirt under their shoes. But they'd pray for you on Sunday!

[bandnerd]

I remember another thing!

People who act all "holier than thou" and look down their nose at you, when they are really just judgemental jerks.

I've encountered that quite a few times in my life. And people wonder why I stopped going to church.

[Jesus Lied For You]

Christians love to talk about how loving, dutiful and compassionate they are, yet I have yet to meet one who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree. Their willful ignorance of the Bible combined with their two-faced idealism to preach it has made me sick. The problem with their approach lies not only in an oft-noted failure to practice what they preach, but an equally pronounced tendency to ignore what the Bible itself, preaches.

"But sanctify the Lord God in you hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" -- 1 Peter 3:15

Perhaps I'm wrong and there is an intelligent loyalist to his/her faith whom may prove so. I'd be utterly delighted to have a civil, intelligent discussion with him/her.

[mranderson]

About 99% of all liberals. THAT is MY encounter. They protect THEIR right to free speech, but may God have mercy on their souls if a conservative excersises the first amendment.

[NE Oasis]

Perhaps I'm wrong and there is an intelligent loyalist to his/her faith whom may prove so. I'd be utterly delighted to have a civil, intelligent discussion with him/her.

I promise to remain civil should you start a thread.

[AFCM]

Christians love to talk about how loving, dutiful and compassionate they are, yet I have yet to meet one who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree. Their willful ignorance of the Bible combined with their two-faced idealism to preach it has made me sick. The problem with their approach lies not only in an oft-noted failure to practice what they preach, but an equally pronounced tendency to ignore what the Bible itself, preaches.

"But sanctify the Lord God in you hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" -- 1 Peter 3:15

Perhaps I'm wrong and there is an intelligent loyalist to his/her faith whom may prove so. I'd be utterly delighted to have a civil, intelligent discussion with him/her.

Good luck with this guy. I know him personally and he's done his homework. I'm not saying he'll change your mind, but he'll exploit the very words you recite and turn them into a debate. Try not to get too fired up or take what he writes personally.

[Keith]

Good luck with this guy. I know him personally and he's done his homework. I'm not saying he'll change your mind, but he'll exploit the very words you recite and turn them into a debate. Try not to get too fired up or take what he writes personally.

Just as long as he takes the heated debates to the nosebleed section.

The only way to access the nosebleed section is to join it. Click on "What's New," at the top of the home page. Scroll down to Miscellaneous, and then click on "Group Memberships." When you join the nosebleed club you have a choice to make it your primary usergroup and over-ride your normal "Member" title. If you want to access to any of the clubs you MUST make the club your primary usergroup. That's the only way that you can access the nosebleed section on the forum.

[the mole]

when i was a christian, i noticed that a vast mahority of churches i attended had become so commercialized that there was no spirit or power left there. this was made all the more powerful by the fact that christ specifically comdemned these types of actions. that was one of three things that drove me from the religion.

[Deni]

why even tell people you are going to pray for them, Just pray for them and leave it out of your mouth in public and in the private with God.

I dont like people that are "showoff" christians. Imeanyou dont have to tell me you are one, if you are truly acting like one. I mean if you have the Holy Spirit then it will show.Show by the joy on your face, the way you live, the way you love your brothers, and the way you act.

Remember Jesus died for the sinners, not the Saints. If you are a saint, Well done...

[jbrown84]

Christians love to talk about how loving, dutiful and compassionate they are, yet I have yet to meet one who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Well that's about the most loaded statement I've ever heard. Hypocrisy to the highest degree, huh? That's quite a thing to say when the rest of your post has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Because a Christian can't tell you why he's a Christian makes him a hypocrite to the highest degree? I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I don't see how it's hypocrisy.

[Jesus Lied For You]

Because a Christian can't tell you why he's a Christian makes him a hypocrite to the highest degree? I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I don't see how it's hypocrisy.

Firstly, allow me to define hypocrisy

Pronunciation: hi-'pä-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English ypocrisie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- + krinein to decide -- more at CERTAIN
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

Or broadly put in layman's terms a pretense of having a religious principle that one does not really possess.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" -- 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)

That all scripture is inspired by God because the scripture says so (circular reasoning) means He respectively inspired James in his penning verse 3:15 of 1 Peter. Ultimately, one might make the leap to conclude God, Himself, therefore "penned" 1 Peter 3:15 therefore He (God) is instructing his followers not to refuse debate, but rather answer to those whom ask.

I'll presume you believe the Bible to be the perfect Word of God and therefore assume all of the instructions He has subsequently inspired. For you to be endowed the title Christian should you not heed to His (Christ's) words?

Does not a cooker cook? Does not a player play? Does not a supervisor supervise?

Why then should a Christian not do as Christ demanded of Himself and His followers while professing to do just that? Perhaps our measurements of hypocrisy are debatable, but the definition and instruction are not. Enlighten me on what you would consider the highest degree of hypocrisy. Is he claiming to be Christian and then murdering any more/less of a hypocrite than he who refuses to debate? What about he/she whom divorce*?

God has clearly spoken His word pertaining to the matter, perhaps you'd like to endulge me on how a Christian not obeying His word is anything but hypocritical of himself. Now, by no means was my post intended to incite a debate, but rather to discuss the hypocrisy I've encountered.


*Approximately 80% of the United States profess to be Christian and yet roughly 50% of couples in the United States get divorced (Note: There are no discernible distinctions between the divorce rate among Christians verses "non-believers" despite all the support from Churches, Christian friends, and prayer)

Yet the Word of God reads:

"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." -- Matthew 19:6

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." -- Mark 10:9

[jbrown84]

So you're telling me that every Christian you have ever met, you have questioned them, and they have said "No, I will not discuss the issue with you." Sounds a little ridiculous to me.

I would say it's our nature to defend our beliefs and the more fervently believed, the more fervently defended. If someone was unwilling to debate it with you, it is likely they were intimidated by your "debating skills" as AFCM described. THAT would be a whole other issue, but not hypocrisy.

As far as being hypocritical about this issue, this Bible verse, well it just seems a little obscure. The divorce argument would hold more water, except for the fact that your own statistics show that there is still 30% who are Christians and don't get divorced. Do you mean to say that you have never met any of those still-married Christians?

[Jesus Lied For You]

So you're telling me that every Christian you have ever met, you have questioned them, and they have said "No, I will not discuss the issue with you." Sounds a little ridiculous to me.

Your mistake -- I never prescribed anything similar to what you've written. What I did write was, "I have yet to meet one who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree." That honest statement merely testifies that I've never met a Christian whom wasn't a hypocrite (as they are not freed from the chains of hypocrisy solely because they believe in the Gospel). I then give an example to what some hypocrites do: they preach what the bible says until they're blue in the face and yet they ignore the Bible (many examples are provided below my last response).

I would say it's our nature to defend our beliefs and the more fervently believed, the more fervently defended. If someone was unwilling to debate it with you, it is likely they were intimidated by your "debating skills" as AFCM described. THAT would be a whole other issue, but not hypocrisy.

I'm going to answer your question with another question: If an American soldier, after pledging the Soldier's Creed (I am an American Soldier...I will always place the mission first...I will never quit...I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat...I am an American Soldier) and swearing to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief, then goes AWOL because he is intimidated by going to Iraq, is he excused of being a hypocrite? Does he not contradict the very values of what an American Soldier is in the same respects a hypocrite does a Christian?

As far as being hypocritical about this issue, this Bible verse, well it just seems a little obscure.

Obviously, you can't find a real problem in my interpretation so you chose to use this "The Bible verse is obcure" argument. Even a flawed interpretation is still an interpretation, and you obviously can't find an inconsistency between my interpretation and the text, or you would have provided an example rather than using this non-rebuttal.

Because the Bible is a very vague book peppered with obscurities I conclude then that it cannot possibly be the product of an all-powerful and perfect God. If there is indeed an objective Truth, there is nothing in the Bible which can possibly confirm or deny what any part of that Truth is.

When you're talking about a book that's supposed to be our instructions from Almighty God, it's logical to have it be as clear and unambiguous as possible. Every little flair of poetry or bit of metaphorical language is one more thing that people can easily misinterpret, at the cost of their immortal souls.

If the Bible is literal, then it is absurd and self-contradictory. If it is figurative, then it is open to many equally valid interpretations with no way of knowing which one is True. If it is both, then how do we know which passages are to be taken literally and which are not?

That's not a casual question; civilizations have gone to war because they couldn't agree on the answers, and to this day even members of the same church can't agree on it. Many of your fellow Christians would label you a hypocrite for suggesting that God took longer than six literal days to create the World.

Let me put it this way: If I am a structural engineer in charge of designing a bridge, I will take great pains to ensure that NOTHING is left ambiguous; every bolt will have its place, every steel beam will be precisely measured, and every drawing will be labeled clearly and checked meticulously for error. If bridge plans were created by poets and painters, who draft the plans with watercolors and write the specifications in metaphorical language, would dare drive your car across the Golden Gate?

Presenting an excerpt from my bridge plan:

Bridge 2:16 - "The bolts that join the arches to the truss are threescore and ten." (Of course, the construction workers are expected to just figure out that this doesn't always mean literally seventy bolts per connection; some have a few more, some much less, depending on circumstances)

Bridge 5:23 - "Lo, the towers of the bridge shall reach unto Heaven!" (perhaps once they reach 2,000 feet and it starts buckling under its own weight, they'll realize that the specs didn't actually mean that.)

Bridge 12:4 - "Like gossamer threads spanning the chasm, shall the suspension cables be." (and as the whole thing folds up and falls into the river, the contractors begin to think that maybe steel would have worked better than gossamer.)

Doesn't it seem the least bit strange to you that a bridge designer takes far greater care to ensure accuracy and precision in his instructions than the Bible's authors did, considering what's at stake in each case?

I'm not being facetious. There are instructions in the Bible which would seem equally absurd to the ones above for building a bridge such as 1 Peter 3:15, and yet people believe them and follow them. As time has gone on, we've argued away much of the absurdities, but how many innocent people were hanged as witches before we decided that's not what God meant by "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? How many children have been abused and tortured by their own parents because to "spare the rod" would spoil the child (Proverbs 13:24)?

In other words, how many times are you going to be force-fed humble pie before you can admit that your favorite book is too obscure to be followed in any meaningful way?

We have no choice. God isn't here to clarify it for us, and those who claim to represent Him all say different things and carry no heaven-issued ID to prove they are who they say they are.

Explain to me why you disagree with 1 Peter 3:15 not being the word of God instructing his followers to answer, if indeed you do. Have years of studying the Bible at OBU rendered you as incapable of delivering a straightforward answer as the book itself is?

The divorce argument would hold more water, except for the fact that your own statistics show that there is still 30% who are Christians and don't get divorced. Do you mean to say that you have never met any of those still-married Christians?

I prescribe the roughly 30% who haven't already broken the "divorce clause" found in the Bible either will divorce or have already disobeyed yet a different instruction given by God. Nevertheless, Christians disobey the Word of God on a daily basis and can be demonstrated by the amount of guilty, repentful prayers. I don't claim to be perfect -- but I also don't claim to follow a perfect book.

Surely a portion of the remaining 30% have pushed for teacher-led prayers in our public schools...

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." -- Matthew 6:5-6 (RSV).

...and I can think of ten "Christians" off the top of my head with long hair (not including the stereotypical image of Jesus).

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" -- l Corinthians 11:14

Since church and state are separate (as God designed it to be [Romans 13:1-7]) then why do Christians tie up our secular court system with petty disagreements such as prayer in public schools?

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?" -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 (NIV)

How many Christians love their children?

"If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" -- Luke 14:26

And let us not forget one of the biggest hypocrites found in the news lately.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -- Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)

By now you might notice that the 30% is potentially 0% given the standards set forth by our society. Do you seek to dispute that every Christian I've met is a hypocrite to the highest degree? If so, please do.

[jbrown84]

I think you are missing the point of Christianity. It is not religion or legalism, for if it were, then yes, we would all be going to hell because nobody will ever get it right. To be a Christian, or a Christ-follower that is, means to put your faith and trust in Christ--that he died for you and has a better plan for you. That with his help you can work to be a better person, but no one will ever be perfect. With that faith comes a willingness to use the Bible as a guide, and take from it your own convictions. This is why everyone reads it a little different, and why human logic cannot ever fully comprehend it.

[Jesus Lied For You]

I think you are missing the point of Christianity. It is not religion or legalism, for if it were, then yes, we would all be going to hell because nobody will ever get it right. To be a Christian, or a Christ-follower that is, means to put your faith and trust in Christ--that he died for you and has a better plan for you. That with his help you can work to be a better person, but no one will ever be perfect. With that faith comes a willingness to use the Bible as a guide, and take from it your own convictions. This is why everyone reads it a little different, and why human logic cannot ever fully comprehend it.

Jason, you're not even attacking my argument, you're just preaching. Instead of telling me how I'm "missing the point of Christianity", why not refute me by telling me how every Christian is not a hypocrite and how my initial statement was "the most loaded statement" and I'll be happy to concede my position.

[jbrown84]

It's a loaded statement because the phrase "hypocrite to the highest degree" is extremely strong wording and based on your opinion of what constitutes the highest degree. You responded to that NO Christians ever defend their beliefs, which I find hard to believe. (Also, I just did it). Yes every Christian makes mistakes, but not all of them are "preachy" about the very things they screw up. You are making blanket statements that simply aren't true, and that's why it was a loaded statement.

And how do you know my name or that I went to OBU?? That is kinda creeping me out.

[Jesus Lied For You]

It's a loaded statement because the phrase "hypocrite to the highest degree" is extremely strong wording and based on your opinion of what constitutes the highest degree.

That the phrase was based upon my opinion doesn't means it's "loaded" since the thread is asking us to discuss personal encounters with hypocrites

An excerpt from my previous argument, "Perhaps our measurements of hypocrisy are debatable…"

You responded to that NO Christians ever defend their beliefs, which I find hard to believe.

Again, I NEVER stated that "no Christians have ever defended their beliefs". Prove me wrong and I’ll concede my argument. What I stated was, "The problem with (Christians') approach lies not only in an oft-noted failure to practice what they preach, but an equally pronounced tendency to ignore what the Bible itself, preaches." I then provided Biblical scripture (1 Peter 3:15) to use as an example. I might have simply used any number of examples (and clearly did so in the following argument).

Also, I just did (answer) it.

You haven't answered anything. Would you like to answer something: When was Jesus crucified? Answer that. 63 views and still no closer to a response from a Christian. Perhaps I’ve stumbled upon a contradiction. I’d love for someone to explain (not rationalize) the difference (if any).

Yes every Christian makes mistakes, but not all of them are "preachy" about the very things they screw up.

I never claimed every Christian preached! I claimed I have yet to meet one whom hasn’t practiced something other than what they've preached. Read an excerpt two of my arguments:

"I have yet to meet one (Christian) who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree…I then give an example to what some hypocrites do: they preach what the bible says until they're blue in the face and yet they ignore the Bible."
Simply because I have yet to meet a Christian who is not a hypocrite doesn’t mean they all are. You're implicitly accusing me of making a hasty generalization, which is simply not the case.

Read it again…Perhaps a third time. I claimed the "hypocrites preach (and yet ignore the Bible)". I never said “Christians preach (and yet ignore the Bible)”

You are making blanket statements that simply aren't true, and that's why it was a loaded statement.

I'm making a true statement based upon my observations. Do you contend that I'm lying?

[jbrown84]

Your initial statement that every Christian you have met is a hypocrite to the highest degree is your hyperbole, not fact. It is opinion, and thus can only be defended as such. That's all I was saying with my initial response.

To qualify your statement we would have to define what is hypocrisy at its highest degree? The answer? I would imagine that would be your opinion and thus could never be defended as true fact.

You haven't answered anything. Would you like to answer something: When was Jesus crucified? Answer that. 63 views and still no closer to a response from a Christian. Perhaps I’ve stumbled upon a contradiction. I’d love for someone to explain (not rationalize) the difference (if any).

I don't know the answer to that question, because you are the first to ask it to me. I am not a Biblical scholar. I read that post and frankly could see nothing contradictory about the two passages.

"I have yet to meet one (Christian) who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree…I then give an example to what some hypocrites do: they preach what the bible says until they're blue in the face and yet they ignore the Bible."
Simply because I have yet to meet a Christian who is not a hypocrite doesn’t mean they all are. You're implicitly accusing me of making a hasty generalization, which is simply not the case.

You must not have met very many Christians.

And as far as ignoring the Bible, I would contend they are not because the Bible teaches that "works" (actions) are not the essential to Christian living, but faith. The Bible also teaches that every Christian will stumble many times. This does not rationalize doing "sinful" things but acknowledges the forgiveness that covers them. To say that a Christian that has been divorced once many years prior continues to practice hypocrisy in that area is unfounded.

[Karried]

And how do you know my name or that I went to OBU?? That is kinda creeping me out.

MySpace

[Jesus Lied For You]

Your initial statement that every Christian you have met is a hypocrite to the highest degree is your hyperbole, not fact. It is opinion, and thus can only be defended as such. That's all I was saying with my initial response.

Likewise then "loaded statement" must be defined.

To qualify your statement we would have to define what is hypocrisy at its highest degree? The answer? I would imagine that would be your opinion and thus could never be defended as true fact.

Hypocrisy at it's highest degree is merely a hypocrite wilfully contradicting one's own principles he/she claims to practice while preaching his/her principles to others. Do you agree with my definition? Is there anything you would add/remove?

I read that post and frankly could see nothing contradictory about the two passages.

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified." -- John 19:14-16 (KJV)


"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?...[The Lord's supper, Judas betrays Him, He's arrested and sentenced to death]...And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." -- Mark 14:12, 15-25 (KJV)

The hour may be rationalized. Yet the day in which Jesus was crucified seems to be contradictory. How does the author of John have Jesus crucified the day before the passover meal when the author of Mark has Jesus crucified the day after the passover meal?

You must not have met very many Christians.

Having been one myself before and attending a private Bible college, I maintain that I have met many (so-called) Christians.

The Bible also teaches that every Christian will stumble many times. This does not rationalize doing "sinful" things but acknowledges the forgiveness that covers them.

You seem to suggest "forgiveness" makes a hypocrite no more: that Ted Haggard, at the end of a day having preached against homosexual relations and then having sex with another man, asking forgiveness isn't a hypocrite.

To say that a Christian that has been divorced once many years prior continues to practice hypocrisy in that area is unfounded.

"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." -- Luke 16:18 (KJV)

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." -- Exodus 20:14, Deuteronomy 5:18 (KJV)

Much like a Christian that has never been married continues to practice pre-marital sex, I suppose. If such is the case, then I was a hypocrite ONCE when I lost my virginity yet are not years later although I still engage in premarital sexual activites. Although, once again, we're not discussing only Christians. We're discussing hypocrites.

[jbrown84]

Christians will always disappoint you. That's why we don't put our faith in people, but in Christ.