Save OKC Schools Initiative

[Jersey Boss]

Wonder what the outcome would have been if there was a vote of the people of on every TIF request?

[Jersey Boss]

Pete, could you explain to me how the convoluted system of a school district associated with one town, say Moore, serves the citizens of another town, OKC? Where I came from schools were located in the towns that served where the populace lived. Seems cra cra to me.

[Martin]

Pete, could you explain to me how the convoluted system of a school district associated with one town, say Moore, serves the citizens of another town, OKC? Where I came from schools were located in the towns that served where the populace lived. Seems cra cra to me.

it seems like you're making the assumption that school district boundaries match the boundaries of the cities for which they're named... that's not the case. there are oklahoma city residents who live within the boundaries of the moore school district.

[Jersey Boss]

it seems like you're making the assumption that school district boundaries match the boundaries of the cities for which they're named... that's not the case. there are oklahoma city residents who live within the boundaries of the moore school district.

Sorry you did not understand my question. My question put another way is why are school districts not the same as municipal boundaries?

[SoonerDave]

Sorry you did not understand my question. My question put another way is why are school districts not the same as municipal boundaries?

Part of that Moore-OKC district history goes back to the annexation binge OKC went on several decades ago...Moore wanted to stay independent and succeeded. OKC grew south less rapidly than north, but Moore crept north along with their schools; eventually, the Moore district boundary was set as far north in some areas as SW 82nd in OKC. That ultimately put residents in north Cleveland County just south of the 89th border under the influence of two potential propety taxing entities. And its why you may hear of outrageously different property tax bills for otherwise very similar houses for no other reason than one is *north* of SW 89th, the other *south*.

[Pete]

Sorry you did not understand my question. My question put another way is why are school districts not the same as municipal boundaries?

There is no such place as Putnam City or Western Heights or Milwood or Oakdale or Crooked Oak or even Deer Creek.

They exist only as school districts of what were once rural areas eventually engulfed by OKC.

[Martin]

Sorry you did not understand my question. My question put another way is why are school districts not the same as municipal boundaries?

ahh... i see. soonerdave pretty much answered it. the moore school district expanded to serve people in adjacent, yet unincorporated areas that were (at the time) closer to it than to the okc school district. these areas were eventually annexed by the city of okc (yet remained moore schools) as they changed from largely rural, agricultural use into suburbia.

if your username is any indication of where you are from, the geography was probably well-established long before public education existed in its current form. that probably allowed the boundaries of school districts to more closely match those of municipal government. for relatively young central oklahoma, these educational services sometimes expanded to rural populations before city services did.

[ctchandler]

Pete,
Oakdale? Wow, I'm surprised you even knew about that place. My boys attended Oakdale which was originally a dependent district in Wicher, Oklahoma. Schools are part of the system of the county that they are physically located in. Somebody mentioned S. W. 82nd and that is true. Cleveland does go that far North. Fairview on S. W. 89th is in Cleveland County and part of the Moore school system (another place my older son attended for two years). We learned that when our boys finished 8th grade, that we could send our boys to any school system in Oklahoma County as long as we were willing to take care of transportation. Most of our kids went to Edmond and they did have an agreement to pick up our kids and bring them home. The ability of children in dependent schools (those that don't have grades k through 12) to choose any school in Oklahoma County is an Oklahoma county law. We chose Jones schools for our boys. And I'm sorry, I'm not sure if this helps anybody or not and I'm not sure it has anything to do with the thread. Oh well, it's not the first time I ran my mouth too much.
C. T.

[Jersey Boss]

Tip O' the hat to Dave, Pete, and Martin for the info and insight.

[LocoAko]

Tip O' the hat to Dave, Pete, and Martin for the info and insight.

Yes, thanks. As a fellow Jersey guy, I find it crazy (regardless of how it happened) that school districts seem almost completely separate from municipal boundaries. And to have 3 (+?) districts (OKC, PC, Western Heights) all well within OKC city limits, nevermind all the other examples? Yeesh.

[SoonerDave]

Pete,
Oakdale? Wow, I'm surprised you even knew about that place. My boys attended Oakdale which was originally a dependent district in Wicher, Oklahoma. Schools are part of the system of the county that they are physically located in. Somebody mentioned S. W. 82nd and that is true. Cleveland does go that far North. Fairview on S. W. 89th is in Cleveland County and part of the Moore school system (another place my older son attended for two years). We learned that when our boys finished 8th grade, that we could send our boys to any school system in Oklahoma County as long as we were willing to take care of transportation. Most of our kids went to Edmond and they did have an agreement to pick up our kids and bring them home. The ability of children in dependent schools (those that don't have grades k through 12) to choose any school in Oklahoma County is an Oklahoma county law. We chose Jones schools for our boys. And I'm sorry, I'm not sure if this helps anybody or not and I'm not sure it has anything to do with the thread. Oh well, it's not the first time I ran my mouth too much.
C. T.

CT, good info, but I do need to clarify one bit of information. The Oklahoma County-Cleveland County border is S 89th street. Cleveland County does not extend to SW 82; only the Moore school *district* does. SW 82nd is Oklahoma County all the way. Fairview Elementary, on the north side of SW 89th, is in *Oklahoma* county.

[Pete]

This is how dire the situation has become:

http://kfor.com/2017/08/17/oklahoma-...ate-lawmakers/

[corwin1968]

This is how dire the situation has become:

http://kfor.com/2017/08/17/oklahoma-...ate-lawmakers/

Gotta admit, my jaw dropped when I read the superintendent's message this morning.

[jonny d]

This is how dire the situation has become:

http://kfor.com/2017/08/17/oklahoma-...ate-lawmakers/

Most don't care enough to do anything about it. They will vote the same way come election time. Not realizing that by doing that, the youth of this state fall farther and farther behind (as well as the economy, since companies don't want to be where qualified candidates are scarce). Starts with elementary and high school, then moves up to college.

[Pete]

There is no city/state that can continue strong growth and competitiveness without a strong educational component.

I've been saying for a long time to stop giving tax dollars and cuts to big business and developers and start properly funding our schools.

We are completely mortgaging our future.

[Zuplar]

There is no city/state that can continue strong growth and competitiveness without a strong educational component.

I've been saying for a long time to stop giving tax dollars and cuts to big business and developers and start properly funding our schools.

We are completely mortgaging our future.

I agree with where you are coming from, this is my main complaint with all this. But what confuses me is you make statements like this, but then want us to raise the sales tax so citizens are having to front more of the burden.

Let's fix the problem and stop trying to fix the symptoms as they come up. We will never fix our education system doing it that way.

Those that aren't paying their fair share whether it be because of this or that, doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. They need to suck it up and pay their fair share.

And then you know what, if we are still in this hole, sure I'm all for getting us to a level where we can be proud of our education system. If at that point it means raising the sales tax a half a cent or whatever, I'm all for it.

[Pete]

Citizens completely bear the burden regardless of how schools are funded.

This initiative is merely a band-aid; a finger in the dike while the legislature can't even come up with over $200 million needed now, after already making ridiculous cuts to school funding.


We can either sit around and complain about what the state isn't doing -- and hasn't been doing for a long time -- or we can do something ourselves to stay afloat until they become more responsible.

And BTW, the reason we are so revenue strapped is due to not properly taxing O&G and giving absurd economic incentives across the board. It's a completely failed experiment in trickle-down economics.

None of this is going to be corrected in the 4 years this initiative would help cover.

[Jersey Boss]

Yes, thanks. As a fellow Jersey guy, I find it crazy (regardless of how it happened) that school districts seem almost completely separate from municipal boundaries. And to have 3 (+?) districts (OKC, PC, Western Heights) all well within OKC city limits, nevermind all the other examples? Yeesh.

+1, Exit 135.

[LocoAko]

+1, Exit 135.

15E.

[Zuplar]

Citizens completely bear the burden regardless of how schools are funded.

This initiative is merely a band-aid; a finger in the dike while the legislature can't even come up with over $200 million needed now, after already making ridiculous cuts to school funding.


We can either sit around and complain about what the state isn't doing -- and hasn't been doing for a long time -- or we can do something ourselves to stay afloat until they become more responsible.

And BTW, the reason we are so revenue strapped is due to not properly taxing O&G and giving absurd economic incentives across the board. It's a completely failed experiment in trickle-down economics.

None of this is going to be corrected in the 4 years this initiative would help cover.

So what are citizens? Is it all of us? Homeowners? Business owners? Companies?

Because your own wording alludes to both, which makes what you are saying very confusing. When I said citizens, I meant all of us that own homes and generally buy things in the store, explicitly excluding entities such as a business.

So with that it is absolutely not up to citizens to be completely burdened with funding schools. It's up to everyone, including those entities which are not paying their fair share, something you are agreeing with.

I'm going to go into much detail on the last one. I respect the hell out of you Pete, I mean that, but that last comment is exactly the poor attitude that leads to no change.

Overall I think we agree, everyone needs to pay their fair share, and at best this is a band-aid fix. I just happen to be on the side against a band-aid fix.

[Pete]

I have to say I'm not even following what you are trying to say or argue against.

My points are about this issue in general, not the opinion of any one person.

Something has to be done and soon and holding on to the idea that somehow at the state level this is going to be resolved in the near future is folly.

[Zuplar]

I have to say I'm not even following what you are trying to say or argue against.

My points are about this issue in general, not the opinion of any one person.

Something has to be done and soon and holding on to the idea that somehow at the state level this is going to be resolved in the near future is folly.

I mean I asked a question, not sure how to be much clearer than that.

You made the statement - Citizens completely bear the burden regardless of how schools are funded.

And I disagree. Because companies also share this burden.

Which you later agreed to. So it's rather you are using 2 different definitions of the word citizen, or you contradicted your own statement.

My point was when you say it's the 'citizens burden completely' this isn't true, because companies are not citizens (in my mind at least) and they also are a large contributing factor to education.

I too am not referencing anyone specific. I just want companies to pay their fair share and to stop being given tax breaks for every little thing they ever do.

[jn1780]

I have to say, looking out of state for new work is looking more appealing everyday. Low cost of living and family has kept me in Oklahoma my whole life, but I really feel like I'm on a sinking ship sometimes.

[jonny d]

So what are citizens? Is it all of us? Homeowners? Business owners? Companies?

Because your own wording alludes to both, which makes what you are saying very confusing. When I said citizens, I meant all of us that own homes and generally buy things in the store, explicitly excluding entities such as a business.

So with that it is absolutely not up to citizens to be completely burdened with funding schools. It's up to everyone, including those entities which are not paying their fair share, something you are agreeing with.

I'm going to go into much detail on the last one. I respect the hell out of you Pete, I mean that, but that last comment is exactly the poor attitude that leads to no change.

Overall I think we agree, everyone needs to pay their fair share, and at best this is a band-aid fix. I just happen to be on the side against a band-aid fix.

Then by all means, do something to create permanent fix. Oh wait, it won't happen. No matter how hard you try, it just won't happen. Hasn't in a decade. Legislators do not want to create new revenue streams, and keep blaming everyone but themselves. Band-aid fixes are all we can hope for in this corrupt state, where change never comes.

[ctchandler]

CT, good info, but I do need to clarify one bit of information. The Oklahoma County-Cleveland County border is S 89th street. Cleveland County does not extend to SW 82; only the Moore school *district* does. SW 82nd is Oklahoma County all the way. Fairview Elementary, on the north side of SW 89th, is in *Oklahoma* county.

SoonerDave,
I stand corrected. I should have checked the map before I made my comment. So, now I'm confused. Why would Moore schools extend out of Cleveland county ? By the way, my late wife was a school nurse in Moore and Fairview was one of her schools. Not that that makes me an expert, just a comment.
C. T.