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Thread: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

  1. #76

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanized View Post
    According to the developer it probably will not be an issue, I've been told.
    They have something against free money?

    Or could it possibly be that taxpayers don't need to be gifting millions to rich developers in order for them to build something?

  2. Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Name a single hotel that has pursued public money besides 21c or Skirvin. Omni doesn't count because OKC pursued them.

  3. #78

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanized View Post
    Name a single hotel that has pursued public money besides 21c or Skirvin. Omni doesn't count because OKC pursued them.
    The Ambassador and First National Center.

    And all four of these hotels were historic rehabs just like this building would be.

  4. Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Ambassador used TIF? I missed that. Again, Skirvin, FNC 21c are special instances. FNC hotel component is just a part of that development.

    I know you are anxious to demonstrate that Omni TIF prohibition clause for hotels is somehow a bad thing, but again I will say that the hotel market is teetering on overbuild. It is causing compression, and low-rent properties on I-35 corridor, I-40/Meridian are much more of a problem for industry than this TIF prohibition. We don't need any artificial drivers of new rooms. If it works as a boutique hotel, great. That's a neat idea and I support it.

    But it needs to be built on its own financials like pretty much every other hotel in the past decade. If the developer switches to a residential model to unlock TIF, also great, IMO. This is an example of incentives being applied CORRECTLY, Pete. As a staunch TIF critic you should at least applaud strategic usage that eliminates overbuild of a sector that does not typically require public funds and instead directs development to residential adaptive reuse with retail component, which we actually DO need.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I'm not anxious to prove anything; just providing healthy skepticism and actual facts for a program that frequently lacks both, while diverting billions of tax dollars as schools are in crisis and the state is calling emerging sessions to further slash needed funding.


    The Omni prohibition clause is not a strategic move by those managing TIF. It was forced upon the City by Omni to protect their investment. Otherwise, where was this supposed strategy before? Omni put that requirement in their contract, not the City.

    And as already been demonstrated, plenty of TIF money has been used to fund hotels and all were special circumstances, just like this would be. 21c received the biggest TIF award in dollars and percentage at that time and that money went to one of OKC's wealthiest families. This property is frequently cited as critical to Bricktown, so much so there have has been countless media stories about it over the last 10 years. So suddenly now this building and project doesn't warrant special consideration?

    Why should hotels be required to be 'built on their own financials' when every other type of commercial project are not and other hotels have already received free tax money? You are saying the hotel market is overbuilt but occupancy rates downtown remain high, especially compared to the rest of the city.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Very happy to see that Lingo is involved with this. They've done great work on these historic buildings.

  7. Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ...The Omni prohibition clause is not a strategic move by those managing TIF. It was forced upon the City by Omni to protect their investment. Otherwise, where was this supposed strategy before? Omni put that requirement in their contract, not the City...
    That may be the case but the byproduct of the prohibition is desirable; that is, we are not funding hotel product that doesn't make sense on its own merit. The hotel market has been red hot - unlike other sectors - and does not need incentive. This is especially true of limited service product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ...And as already been demonstrated, plenty of TIF money has been used to fund hotels and all were special circumstances, just like this would be. 21c received the biggest TIF award in dollars and percentage at that time and that money went to one of OKC's wealthiest families. This property is frequently cited as critical to Bricktown, so much so there have has been countless media stories about it over the last 10 years. So suddenly now this building and project doesn't warrant special consideration?..
    Because there are options for the building other than hotel, and because adding rooms in Bricktown doesn't provide significant benefit beyond what the other applications might. In the case of Ambassador, 21c and FNC, the hotel product provided a net benefit to their respective districts and to downtown beyond adaptive re-use of a derelict albeit important building. This would not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ...Why should hotels be required to be 'built on their own financials' when every other type of commercial project are not and other hotels have already received free tax money? You are saying the hotel market is overbuilt but occupancy rates downtown remain high, especially compared to the rest of the city...
    Because, again, the downtown hotel development market is approaching "irrational exuberance" levels according to the industry, and because this has a ripple effect city-wide. There is still a significant amount of old, deep-discount product on the market. It is especially problematic in that much of this older product has no debt service, which means they can keep a property running by selling rooms very cheaply (check out the Biltmore, for instance). So while the downtown market remains pretty stable rates city-wide are plummeting, which could spell trouble for properties away from the city center, and which also has a negative impact on things like room tax and sales tax. It also long-term could create a softening of rates/occupancy even downtown. The hotel industry is a pretty complicated organism, and needs to be looked at through a city-wide lens when we make long-term decisions.

    All of that said - while I have made my case for the TIF prohibition for downtown hotels - as you stated this IS a building with special circumstances, and if the powers that be found a way to make an exception, I would support it.

    I'm just saying that the net benefit of the prohibition works to the advantage of the City, so even if driven by Omni it is a good thing overall.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    The greatest thing about the Spaghetti Warehouse as I recall, it was the catalyst that lured many under the bridge from events at the Myriad into Bricktown that helped many of our leaders envision Bricktown's potential.

    A number of times we visited the Spaghetti Warehouse before or after an event. Kept thinking what it would be like with some more restaurant choices; then, the boom came following the canal opening--Chelinos was the first major restaurant established on the Bricktown Canal.

    State Fair Arena didn't have nearby restaurants close to the venue; Sammy's Pizza on 10th (west of Portland) was one of my favorites to attend before or after an event.

  9. #84

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    After reading the article from the Oklahoma I would much rather see the new owners do condominium's/apartments on the top 5 floors and retail on the first floor. There is already a holiday inn express behind this and 2 new hotels going in behind the ihop. We need affordable residential and for sale housing downtown. We just approved bonds for economic impact and affordable housing on September 12th. Offer these guys a grant coupled with a possible historic tax credit from the federal government and lets cater to some folks that might actually ride the streetcar that is going in as we speak. Another hotel is business, sure enough.....but we need folks that will ride that streetcar and use the new scissortail park to have options for affordable housing downtown !!

  10. Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC_on_mines View Post
    After reading the article from the Oklahoma I would much rather see the new owners do condominium's/apartments on the top 5 floors and retail on the first floor. There is already a holiday inn express behind this and 2 new hotels going in behind the ihop. We need affordable residential and for sale housing downtown. We just approved bonds for economic impact and affordable housing on September 12th. Offer these guys a grant coupled with a possible historic tax credit from the federal government and lets cater to some folks that might actually ride the streetcar that is going in as we speak. Another hotel is business, sure enough.....but we need folks that will ride that streetcar and use the new scissortail park to have options for affordable housing downtown !!
    With a purchase price of $3.8 million for that building, I doubt affordable housing could break even there even with tax credits, etc.

  11. #86

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    As someone who has worked for a company that turned down incentives, the owner gave me a very specific very smart reason for it. He said I don't want to owe them anything. You take incentive money you open yourself up to public criticism, more oversight, and in general just more visisblity. I just don't want that.

    Could be a situation like that.

  12. #87

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I think the upper floors should be condos/apartments as well. We already have several hotels in the area with more to come.

  13. #88

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    ^^^

  14. #89

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by gopokes88 View Post
    As someone who has worked for a company that turned down incentives, the owner gave me a very specific very smart reason for it. He said I don't want to owe them anything. You take incentive money you open yourself up to public criticism, more oversight, and in general just more visisblity. I just don't want that.
    But the entire basis of getting TIF is that you must show on a pro forma a 'funding gap' which demonstrates the project cannot be built without it. The infamous 'but for' argument that is the non-provable assumption at the very core of all such public incentives.

    That's why this assumption is so incredibly dubious. Anyone can make a pro forma say anything they want; it's just numbers on a spreadsheet. It's not like it's independently audited and verified.

    Over beers and honest conversation local developers will tell you they specifically create proformas to show a 5-8% funding gap in order to have the best chance of obtaining free TIF money. Otherwise, how do you begin to explain that dozens and dozens of projects all fall in this exact window, regardless of timimg, type of project, developer, location, features, etc.? They all know how to game the system due to the long track record of what it takes to get the free money.

    And of course, there are plenty of projects that get built without any TIF at all.

  15. #90

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    With a purchase price of $3.8 million for that building, I doubt affordable housing could break even there even with tax credits, etc.
    Good point....

  16. #91

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    The guest speaker in Steve's downtown development chat this morning said something about wishing Urban Outfitters would open up on the first floor of the Spaghetti Warehouse Building. Is Urban Outfitters even still popular? I know it would have been a great catch for OKC in 2007 but it seems kind of like one of those stores that was a last decade fad. I can think of numerous other retailers I would like to see downtown over Urban Outfitters. First and foremost, a grocery store or even a CVS would be much welcome. It's hard to believe downtown still doesn't have these things and we are almost in 2018.

    Edit: I just looked it up and Urban Outfitters has experienced a resurgence recently.

    I really think that the Spaghetti Warehouse first floor should remain a restaurant or a bar. It's quite a cool space in my opinion.

  17. #92

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    With a purchase price of $3.8 million for that building, I doubt affordable housing could break even there even with tax credits, etc.
    I'm not a developer so I don't know how the calculations are done but if the first floor was kept as a restaurant, couldn't that help maqe it more feasible for the upper floors to be converted to some sort of residential?

  18. Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I don think it matters what the first floor is for 2+ to be residential. I would argue that being a resaurant makes the smell harder to deal with. As nice as spaghetti is, do you want to be the "spaghetti smell guy" every where you go? At least with it being retail, there isn't a smell, you dont have a kitchen to worry about with potential hazards there (ventilation, flames, etc). And noise would be, quite frankly, less with retail. So if i were looking, i would chose retail over food any day for the bottom floor of what i live in.

  19. #94

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I have always heard that the cost to renovate the upper floors of these older buildings is expensive. You wouldn't think so with brick walls, etc. Apparently the code requirements are expensive. Just what I heard...

  20. #95

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerinfiniti View Post
    I have always heard that the cost to renovate the upper floors of these older buildings is expensive. You wouldn't think so with brick walls, etc. Apparently the code requirements are expensive. Just what I heard...
    I don't know about this building, but I did do the second floor of the Kingman plow building. We had to restore the wood flooring, couldn't cover any pillars, and had to leave the safe intact and in place... It was expensive and time consuming. In retrospect, if we weren't in the middle of the tech bubble, I would have pushed to locate elsewhere.

  21. #96

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Spaghetti Warehouse Building to begin renovation

    The first steps towards renovation of the historic building at 101 E. Sheridan in Bricktown will be soon taken as plans have been filed to replace all windows and open the ample number of previously blocked window openings.



    Sam Coury bought the building last September and told OKCTalk that the window replacement is the first step in a full remodel of the historic structure.

    Plans filed with the Downtown Design Review Committee show the intention to replace all the old openings with new historically-appropriate windows.



    A test was undertaken by removing the bricks from one opening and determining that that process could be performed without damaging the surrounding original brick.

    Coury said they hope to start the window replacement project as soon as the necessary approvals are received. He plans to pursue historic tax credits which require the rest of the building to remain unchanged, and is hopeful of receiving the necessary cooperation from the city, state and federal governments to move the project forward as quickly as possible.

    Coury mentioned the building is particularly important due to its iconic and highly visible status in Bricktown.

    The interior of the building is rough but solid according to Coury and he envisions either apartments, office, a hotel or even warehouse space on floors 2-6, restaurant and retail space on the 1st floor, and a possible nightclub in the full basement.



    The 6-story building has been completely vacant since the Spaghetti Warehouse closed its doors in early 2016, part of a national contraction.

    Coury has employed Catherine Montgomery of local firm Preservation and Design Studio, which has worked on several area restoration projects such as the Ambassador Hotel and Calvary Baptist Church.

    101 E. Sheridan was originally constructed by the Oklahoma Furniture Manufacturing Company as a 3-story building in the early 1900's, with 3 more floors being added afterwards. It occupies a key corner at Sheridan and Oklahoma in the heart of Bricktown.








  22. #97

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I want to know how the bricks in the windows are removed.

  23. #98

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Likely using a brick and mortar saw.

    http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/to...AaAlE2EALw_wcB

  24. #99

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    I hope the nightclub happens.

  25. #100

    Default Re: Spaghetti Warehouse Building

    Quote Originally Posted by stjohn View Post
    I want to know how the bricks in the windows are removed.
    Its probably not hard at all to tell you the truth. Brick gets its strength though having them interlock. Only the mortar and weight of the bricks kept those windows in.

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