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Thread: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

  1. #51

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This seems 100% false to me.
    How so? I'm inclined to agree with traxx here.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This seems 100% false to me.
    Yeah, you're right. Mary Fallin is the final voice on whether OKC has bike lanes, walking paths, building design and materials, whether buildings are built to the street or have a setback and so on. If Mary doesn't want it in OKC, it doesn't happen.

  3. #53

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Okay, let's please get off politics.

    Thanks.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Good topic. When I grew up (in Tulsa) in the 80's and 90's, downtown OKC was pretty much a joke and there was virtually no reason to visit. To see it today is pretty impressive, relative to where it was 20-25 years ago. But IMO, it still lags behind most peers from an urban perspective and isn't coming close to gaining on cities in the next tier up. I feel that the majority of the projects (obviously some exceptions like Devon, 21C, etc) have been of the low-hanging fruit variety...but you have to start somewhere and it was a deep, deep hole to dig out from. I hope to see the city to grow and emerge, there's a lot of potential to make it a cool place.

  5. #55

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I'm no expert in urbanism, but to me there's really no such thing as "low-hanging" fruit in urban development. Every single project either contributes meaningfully to urban fabric or it detracts from it, and there rarely, if ever, needs to be something on a large scale to be considered a success.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by DenverPoke View Post
    Good topic. When I grew up (in Tulsa) in the 80's and 90's, downtown OKC was pretty much a joke and there was virtually no reason to visit. To see it today is pretty impressive, relative to where it was 20-25 years ago. But IMO, it still lags behind most peers from an urban perspective and isn't coming close to gaining on cities in the next tier up. I feel that the majority of the projects (obviously some exceptions like Devon, 21C, etc) have been of the low-hanging fruit variety...but you have to start somewhere and it was a deep, deep hole to dig out from. I hope to see the city to grow and emerge, there's a lot of potential to make it a cool place.
    OKC did miss the high-rise condo boom during the 2000s which I think contributes to the perception of the city being behind. Most other markets the size of OKC and even smaller had at least a few mid-rise or high-rise condo towers built last decade. Little Rock had three condo towers built and they are pretty impressive. To be fair, Tulsa also lagged in this aspect as well. This decade, the focus has shifted more towards apartments, which OKC and Tulsa have seen quite a bit of.

    For a long time, Tulsa has been ahead of OKC in terms of having vibrant, urban neighborhoods with critical mass. OKC had Bricktown but not much else until recently. Today, that is changing and I don't think the case that Tulsa is ahead of OKC is near as strong as it once was.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I think OKC missed the condo boom for a few reasons, one of which is that our downtown was just beginning to come back to life at that point, and another is that our local investors have always been pretty cautious. Something like LEVEL was still seen as a big deal back then, and it took a while for everyone to be comfortable with the idea of downtown housing being a real thing.

    Give the city another 10 years and I think we'll have seen a lot of improvement even over where we are today. Our urban districts are starting to grow together, and once that happens, you'll see a big jump in the quality of life that we have here.

    It's tough for most people to visualize something that they haven't seen before, so when you're talking urbanism to most Oklahomans, they can't picture what you're talking about. There have to be a lot of potential builders who just scratch their head when you talk about bringing a building out to the street and things like that. You want good pedestrian interaction and they think you're speaking Klingon. But once we get the streetcar running and people can actually see a large area that follows urban principles, they'll start to get it, and I think you'll see better projects proposed afterwards.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    I think OKC missed the condo boom for a few reasons, one of which is that our downtown was just beginning to come back to life at that point, and another is that our local investors have always been pretty cautious. Something like LEVEL was still seen as a big deal back then, and it took a while for everyone to be comfortable with the idea of downtown housing being a real thing.

    Give the city another 10 years and I think we'll have seen a lot of improvement even over where we are today. Our urban districts are starting to grow together, and once that happens, you'll see a big jump in the quality of life that we have here.

    It's tough for most people to visualize something that they haven't seen before, so when you're talking urbanism to most Oklahomans, they can't picture what you're talking about. There have to be a lot of potential builders who just scratch their head when you talk about bringing a building out to the street and things like that. You want good pedestrian interaction and they think you're speaking Klingon. But once we get the streetcar running and people can actually see a large area that follows urban principles, they'll start to get it, and I think you'll see better projects proposed afterwards.
    Great post. I especially like and agree with your second paragraph. I mean, even today things have improved monumentally compared to where they were just five years ago. I really think downtown OKC has actually turned a corner within the past year. Not only is there a lot more to do, but the culture is becoming a lot more active even on weeknights. It's really great to finally see this happening here. I can only imagine things getting better going forward as the urban districts continue to grow together.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    I think OKC missed the condo boom for a few reasons, one of which is that our downtown was just beginning to come back to life at that point, and another is that our local investors have always been pretty cautious. Something like LEVEL was still seen as a big deal back then, and it took a while for everyone to be comfortable with the idea of downtown housing being a real thing.

    Give the city another 10 years and I think we'll have seen a lot of improvement even over where we are today. Our urban districts are starting to grow together, and once that happens, you'll see a big jump in the quality of life that we have here.

    It's tough for most people to visualize something that they haven't seen before, so when you're talking urbanism to most Oklahomans, they can't picture what you're talking about. There have to be a lot of potential builders who just scratch their head when you talk about bringing a building out to the street and things like that. You want good pedestrian interaction and they think you're speaking Klingon. But once we get the streetcar running and people can actually see a large area that follows urban principles, they'll start to get it, and I think you'll see better projects proposed afterwards.
    Lots of good points. I think that change-over is a long term process when thinking the entire city. Convincing developers of using good urban principles downtown shouldn't be, though. In the areas that are already very suburban, projects that follow more urban principals seem out of place and strange...don't seem to work as much on their own. For example, at 122nd and May, the new CVS is snugged up to the street at the corner...and looks odd since everything else around it for miles is not. By itself, this project wouldn't make a convincing argument. If it was part of a whole contiguous development using better urban principals, people would get it. We need huge developers to do major developments all planned well. Bits and pieces is a tough way to convince anyone.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    OKC did miss the high-rise condo boom during the 2000s which I think contributes to the perception of the city being behind. Most other markets the size of OKC and even smaller had at least a few mid-rise or high-rise condo towers built last decade. Little Rock had three condo towers built and they are pretty impressive. To be fair, Tulsa also lagged in this aspect as well. This decade, the focus has shifted more towards apartments, which OKC and Tulsa have seen quite a bit of.

    For a long time, Tulsa has been ahead of OKC in terms of having vibrant, urban neighborhoods with critical mass. OKC had Bricktown but not much else until recently. Today, that is changing and I don't think the case that Tulsa is ahead of OKC is near as strong as it once was.
    I've always liked the idea of high rise housing and hope it's not far off for OKC. In OKC's quest to become a big league city, I think high rise living helps make that point.

    Also, developers in the downtown districts need to move past the suburban development concepts. It has gotten better but I still look at lower bricktown as largely a suburban mistake in the middle of a downtown district.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I've lived in high-rises the last decade in OKC, I don't know what everybody is griping about

    :-P

  12. #62

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    I've lived in high-rises the last decade in OKC, I don't know what everybody is griping about

    :-P
    Most of the high-rise developments that are here, like the Regency and the Park Harvey, are on the dated side. There are a few others but nothing really large scale. They aren't comparable to this.

    http://www.rivermarkettower.com/gallery

    Hopefully the 4th and EKG development helps bring more of this to OKC and also proves that it can work here.

  13. #63
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    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I don't care, I still enjoy the highrise life. And 6.5 of those years was at the Classen which was pretty darned good. If it's really the life you want, you make it happen and make the best of it.

  14. #64

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    I don't care, I still enjoy the highrise life. And 6.5 of those years was at the Classen which was pretty darned good. If it's really the life you want, you make it happen and make the best of it.
    I haven't been in the Classen, but I've heard it's one of the better high-rise living structures in OKC.

  15. #65

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I thought this was interesting as it relates to New Urbanism.

    As a current St. Louis resident, I often check out www.nextstl.com (STL's urban design blog). This was a recent article. There are all kinds of projects going on in St. Louis and this really only struck me as notable because of the reaction to it. This is a fairly distressed neighborhood in which this foundation is proposing a new headquarters. One might suspect for revitalization purposes the reaction would be positive. Instead, it is uniformly negative because of the way it will harm the streetwall (which would appear to be currently vacant). Just an interesting comment on the priorities of the group of urban enthusiasts that are drawn to this site. Would be curious if the reaction in OKC would be similar under similar circumstances.

    https://nextstl.com/2017/03/missouri...n-works-grove/

  16. #66

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    We seem to have gotten off topic and gone political as tends to happen a lot here. State politicians have little effect on design and building standards that either contribute or are counter to new urbanism in OKC.
    People in Oklahoma have to drink that koolaid in order to stay sane. However, for the outside world, nobody really wants to live somewhere that requires brainwashing and delusion to not go crazy.

    To be honest, every city that matters has new urbanism right now because it's just simply the trend in 2017. OKC needs to have urbane development, but that's a baseline, not a difference-maker. On the flip side, the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of Oklahoma is repulsive politics. That's the state's brand right now, and the voting populace shows no signs of putting that banner down.

    Compare to Omaha: Same new urbanism, same decent historic neighborhoods, same overwhelmingly suburban layers after that, and a slightly less repulsive social brand with Ben Sasse. Omaha undeniably benefits from a slightly more moderate outside perception. Same as Des Moines, Albuquerque and Kansas City.

    Compare to Little Rock or Wichita: Fledgling new urbanism, a solitude decent historic district in each, kind of dumpy suburban surroundings beyond that, and the same repulsive social environment as Oklahoma. However, if you ask someone on the street in a coastal city, is OKC going to be perceived as that much better than Wichita or Little Rock? Probably not despite the reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    OKC did miss the high-rise condo boom during the 2000s which I think contributes to the perception of the city being behind. Most other markets the size of OKC and even smaller had at least a few mid-rise or high-rise condo towers built last decade. Little Rock had three condo towers built and they are pretty impressive. To be fair, Tulsa also lagged in this aspect as well. This decade, the focus has shifted more towards apartments, which OKC and Tulsa have seen quite a bit of.

    For a long time, Tulsa has been ahead of OKC in terms of having vibrant, urban neighborhoods with critical mass. OKC had Bricktown but not much else until recently. Today, that is changing and I don't think the case that Tulsa is ahead of OKC is near as strong as it once was.
    Yeah, Oklahoma just didn't have a good decade in the 1990s through 2000s. But we're going to pretend that had nothing to do with the state's firebrand politics.

  17. #67

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    People in Oklahoma have to drink that koolaid in order to stay sane. However, for the outside world, nobody really wants to live somewhere that requires brainwashing and delusion to not go crazy.

    To be honest, every city that matters has new urbanism right now because it's just simply the trend in 2017. OKC needs to have urbane development, but that's a baseline, not a difference-maker. On the flip side, the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of Oklahoma is repulsive politics. That's the state's brand right now, and the voting populace shows no signs of putting that banner down.

    Compare to Omaha: Same new urbanism, same decent historic neighborhoods, same overwhelmingly suburban layers after that, and a slightly less repulsive social brand with Ben Sasse. Omaha undeniably benefits from a slightly more moderate outside perception. Same as Des Moines, Albuquerque and Kansas City.

    Compare to Little Rock or Wichita: Fledgling new urbanism, a solitude decent historic district in each, kind of dumpy suburban surroundings beyond that, and the same repulsive social environment as Oklahoma. However, if you ask someone on the street in a coastal city, is OKC going to be perceived as that much better than Wichita or Little Rock? Probably not despite the reality.



    Yeah, Oklahoma just didn't have a good decade in the 1990s through 2000s. But we're going to pretend that had nothing to do with the state's firebrand politics.
    Overkill?!?!?

  18. #68

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by SOONER8693 View Post
    Overkill?!?!?
    Come on, since when has Spartan ever flown off the handle and made ridiculous unsupported claims?

  19. #69

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    Come on, since when has Spartan ever flown off the handle and made ridiculous unsupported claims?
    Well, in reality, since most outsiders probably draw a blank when asked about Oklahoma and Oklahoma City, then they better be warned, unless they nabbed great jobs, to avoid Oklahoma, due to the insanity going on at the State Capitol, along with the threat from the earthquakes. Nobody knows if a 5.0+ earthquake will eventually center in the OKC Metro. If such fears, though, are overblown, then outsiders might as well go ahead and dare come, grab some popcorn, and watch the show of governmental insanity along with the seismometer. Maybe a few people move to Oklahoma just to do that. It doesn't require getting brainwashed and becoming delusional to enjoy the show and not go crazy. Just take a break from the show sometimes to go admire the new urbanism in Oklahoma City.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    We seem to have gotten off topic and gone political as tends to happen a lot here. State politicians have little effect on design and building standards that either contribute or are counter to new urbanism in OKC.
    True, the topic is on new urbanism in OKC with some veering toward politics going on at the State Capitol. It might as well veer off in that direction, because every year legislators seek to pass new laws banning or restricting what cities can do. Some, if passed, could discourage new companies from wanting to build in Oklahoma CIty and fewer opportunities for new urbanism.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A reminder that lots of well paid people in OKC can't afford to buy anything in our downtown.
    What are we considering well paid and what is considered the range of affordability?

  22. #72

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    It's not fair to group Denver in with OKC ^ Denver is twice the size of OKC and has several advantages both natural and man made.
    I definitely agree with this.

  23. #73

    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    People in Oklahoma have to drink that koolaid in order to stay sane. However, for the outside world, nobody really wants to live somewhere that requires brainwashing and delusion to not go crazy.

    To be honest, every city that matters has new urbanism right now because it's just simply the trend in 2017. OKC needs to have urbane development, but that's a baseline, not a difference-maker. On the flip side, the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of Oklahoma is repulsive politics. That's the state's brand right now, and the voting populace shows no signs of putting that banner down.

    Compare to Omaha: Same new urbanism, same decent historic neighborhoods, same overwhelmingly suburban layers after that, and a slightly less repulsive social brand with Ben Sasse. Omaha undeniably benefits from a slightly more moderate outside perception. Same as Des Moines, Albuquerque and Kansas City.

    Compare to Little Rock or Wichita: Fledgling new urbanism, a solitude decent historic district in each, kind of dumpy suburban surroundings beyond that, and the same repulsive social environment as Oklahoma. However, if you ask someone on the street in a coastal city, is OKC going to be perceived as that much better than Wichita or Little Rock? Probably not despite the reality.



    Yeah, Oklahoma just didn't have a good decade in the 1990s through 2000s. But we're going to pretend that had nothing to do with the state's firebrand politics.
    I really don't think that our state politics is what people think of when they hear OKC. Most people probably think of the Thunder when they hear OKC. And it's not unique to Oklahoma. Most states have politicians or politics that they don't like or they think causes their state to look foolish.

    This thread started off with potential. Discussing design, new urbanism ideals, what developers are doing right and what they're doing wrong wrt new urbanism, what they need to do or should be doing. But like so many other threads on here it devolves into people taking pot shots at state government. So many people just like to blame everything on state politicians. If it rains at your outside wedding; blame the clowns on 23rd street. It must be their fault. It's ridiculous.

    You know, there is a politics forum on this site. It would be wonderful if we could keep politics to that forum for the most part instead of derailing nearly every other thread on this board into politics.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Comparing OKC's new urbanism to other U.S cities

    I'm not sure this is the right spot for this post, but I was flying from Denver to OKC yesterday and the SW ticket agent saw we were going to OKC, and said she is thinking of transferring to OKC . She said she has researched it and really likes the progress OKC has made, the cost of living is fantastic compared to Denver and she wouldn't mind the milder winters and can handle the hotter summers. She also said that OKC residents are the most friendly she encounters (very scientific poll I'm sure). Despite a line behind us she was wanting to chat about OKC. Probably need to line her up for an OKC commercial spot when she moves to town.

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