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  1. #1

    Default Russia, something or nothing?

    FBI in agreement with CIA that Russia aimed to help Trump win White House

    The GOP has benefited from Russian espionage in this election.
    What does this mean? It seems as though the president elect and his spokespeople have been saying, in effect, no big deal.

    Is it really nothing? This is hard to accept. I don't care what party benefits. This can't be good.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    i thought trump said hillary was in collusion with the russians?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    It depends on what they did, and to what extent they really made a difference. Osama sought to influence the 2008 election. Obama spoke out in the Brexit vote. We've gotten involved and have tried to influence elections all over the world such as in Israel. It happens. Plenty of folks on the GOp side are saying we should investigate, which is appropriate. But, at the end of the day, if the crime is just making public what Hillary and folks on her side said in emails, how different is that than the sneaked video of Romney at a private event? If revealing the truth is such a bad thing, who does that really reflect on?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    It's definitely "something."
    Let's first not ignore that and accept it.

    But where the caveats lie are:

    -Did they ACTUALLY impact the outcome?
    -To what extent?
    -How did they gain access?
    -Why did they do this?
    -Is there any precedent with something like this?
    -Depending upon findings, do we automatically rule Hillary the winner (I already know the answer to that one on this board), or start from scratch???
    -What steps will be taken to mitigate this from happening again?

    As I've mentioned before, the U.S. has been actively involved with some elections overseas for decades, to varying degrees. Does that excuse this action? Not necessarily, but as long as people know it and are willing to accept the fact that things like this have been done before and perpetrated by our own.

    And on a related note, I posted a link in another thread here that had Julian Assange saying the DNC hack was NOT by the Russians but rather by an outraged American who was retaliating for the treatment by the DNC of Bernie Sanders... just an important to detail to note at this time.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    But all the networks said the Russians definitely did it. Not only did they do it, but they "hacked" the servers. Sarcastic voice off now.

    "Fake news" also has varying degrees of fakeness.

    Again, not pardoning Russia, but If it was me, I would be dang sure about it before "punishing" the Russians. A relationship that is very important to us at the moment. Which puts the whole thing together. What better way to trip up Trump than to provocate him into attacking the Russians (verbally that is)?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Whatever did or did not happen regarding outside influence, one thing is, or should be, clear by now. This election is over, and has been for a while. Like it, sigh over it, fret over it, it does not matter. It's done.

    Whether we thrive or simply survive may be a debatable question in some minds for a while still to come, but who takes office next month when the current terms for president and veep conclude truly is no longer a valid discussion point. So thanks to those who are departing and good luck to the new folk.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    We already give corporations unlimited free speech. So why not foreign countries?

    Corporations are often in an adversarial relationship with the government, i.e., they don't like being taxed or following regulations. So why not foreign countries who have an adversarial relationship, i.e., they don't like sanctions or our stationing military assets on their borders?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    We already give corporations unlimited free speech. So why not foreign countries?

    Corporations are often in an adversarial relationship with the government, i.e., they don't like being taxed or following regulations. So why not foreign countries who have an adversarial relationship, i.e., they don't like sanctions or our stationing military assets on their borders?
    Hm, why do I sense sarcasm in this post?

    Because... you raise VERY interesting points that I would like to hear varying opinions on. Honestly, look at all the factors that pump money into campaigns every year and the wide array of interests they claim to support. Then, compare and contrast that with other countries who may have an interest in influencing elections for their own merit.

    Mind you the reationships should be seen as similar. Many of these big corporations and banks (GE, Microsoft, many of the banks, etc.) who donate to these candidates aren't solely in the U.S. anymore (you know, that globalism thing), so aren't they more or less acting as global entities already?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    From national Democrats I seem to see a bit of a paradox forming around the idea of "outside influence" of elections. Apparently Russian influence is bad, but foreigners that are within are borders voting is good. See California.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    From national Democrats I seem to see a bit of a paradox forming around the idea of "outside influence" of elections. Apparently Russian influence is bad, but foreigners that are within are borders voting is good. See California.
    See what in California?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Yeah. Sorry, but I've seen no evidence or proof of foreign nationals voting, no matter what Trump claims.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Yeah. Sorry, but I've seen no evidence or proof of foreign nationals voting, no matter what Trump claims.
    http://www.fairus.org/issue/noncitiz...-u-s-elections

    It's (likely) not widespread, but I have little doubt that it occurs. But don't you see the similarities. California passes laws that appear to make it easier for it to occur. But they say it doesn't. They all know voter fraud is nearly impossible to detect, yet instances keep occurring where they do catch it. So the fact that we are catching some leads me to believe it is more widespread than these relatively few examples.

    Nationally, Democrats are decrying foul play by Russia, yet have no proof that it occurs. But we need laws stopping "THAT" outside influence.

    Apparently I just don't understand where "outside" begins and ends.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/07/st...the-thousands/

    Apparently Virginia has a similar system of auto voter registration that California just instituted. Shockingly, non-residents were getting registered to vote.


  14. #14

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    I've seen several opinion pieces (from slanted, yet still respectable, outlets like Huffington Post) that have gone so far as to call Russia an enemy of the U.S., in some attempt to invalidate the election results. I agree with what most of the early posts here said--investigate the hacking incidents and study the effects of the leaks. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to to be cautious and suspicious of Russia, but I would hesitate running into an outright confrontation or labelling them an enemy at this point.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    http://www.fairus.org/issue/noncitiz...-u-s-elections

    It's (likely) not widespread, but I have little doubt that it occurs. But don't you see the similarities.
    I do not, other than that there seems to be a strange partisan logic guiding conclusions.

    Nationally, Democrats are decrying foul play by Russia, yet have no proof that it occurs. But we need laws stopping "THAT" outside influence.
    Nationally, Democrats and Republicans are investigating the situation, along with the intelligence community. They say they have proof and private firms say the data suggests it as well. We're supposed to see more proof next month, but without the classified information, I doubt those siding with Russia will ever really be convinced.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TexanOkie View Post
    I've seen several opinion pieces (from slanted, yet still respectable, outlets like Huffington Post) that have gone so far as to call Russia an enemy of the U.S., in some attempt to invalidate the election results.
    Any attempts to invalidate the elections results are academic only and have not officially been put forth as a consequence to potential hacking.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/07/st...the-thousands/

    Apparently Virginia has a similar system of auto voter registration that California just instituted. Shockingly, non-residents were getting registered to vote.
    Well, look at it this way: these laws will only help build support for Republican voter purge programs. ; )

  18. #18

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TexanOkie View Post
    There are a lot of legitimate reasons to to be cautious and suspicious of Russia, but I would hesitate running into an outright confrontation or labelling them an enemy at this point.
    Would hacking our political system be grounds for confrontation or labeling them an enemy? What about aggressive actions towards our military and our allies?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Would hacking our political system be grounds for confrontation or labeling them an enemy? What about aggressive actions towards our military and our allies?
    Yes.

    Guys, Detroit is now our enemy. They are meddling with our election process. Call out the national guard.

    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tein/95570866/

  20. #20

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Would hacking our political system be grounds for confrontation or labeling them an enemy? What about aggressive actions towards our military and our allies?
    But we don't know that the first occurred, and the second? It depends on the level. I just think it's funny how attacked Romney was for identifying Russia as an enemy 4 years ago (by Clinton no less). That much hasn't changed, besides politics of convenience.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Trump was hoping for help from Russia:


  22. #22

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    So he's resourceful?

  23. #23

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    But we don't know that the first occurred, and the second? It depends on the level. I just think it's funny how attacked Romney was for identifying Russia as an enemy 4 years ago (by Clinton no less). That much hasn't changed, besides politics of convenience.
    Are we also putting the DNC on par with the federal election commission. We all realize these are not one in the same right? The election was not hacked. Political hacks were (maybe) hacked.

    There appears to be REAL election hacks in Detroit as mentioned above. I'll hold my breath for outrage to ensue.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?


  25. #25

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    "But there is no suggestion that the EAC breach could have been used in this way, and there is no suggestion that Rasputin has any direct link to the Russian government. It is probable that the breach was a standard hack, steal and sell operation by a cyber-criminal."

    Yawn.

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