New State Fair Coliseum

[stile99]

Point: there are plenty of non-livestock shows despite the claims that all the non-livestock shows have abandoned the fairgrounds?

Again, you'll understand the confusion, considering nobody made that claim. As I understand it, the claim was made that the fairgrounds is focusing more on the animal and gun/knife shows (and, again, that people are asking for more return on their dollar, something STILL not refuted). Focusing 'more' does not mean 'to the exclusion of all others'. However, the claim WAS made that there are 0 horse shows there, quickly proven false by merely looking at their website. So you're saying you and Rover have been attempting to knock down an argument never made? I wonder if there's a term for that.

[PaddyShack]

So, why would Comic-cons and what not go in here? Do columns really make certain trade shows impossible? The last comic-con type thing I went to was in a hotel convention center, meaning low roofs and multiple rooms breaking up the convention... To me the Bennett center would have been much better since it is all one space in one building with on level... Though last time I went through a convention at the Bennett I never made it out to the other two buildings at the fairgrounds, my wife and I were just worn out from walking back and forth across the Bennett that we didn't even care about seeing more crap...

[d-usa]

The argument that was made:

One might argue that the fairgrounds is a site similar to downtown, but I'd argue that we only built one downtown arena, one streetcar system, one city park (well, two but MGB is a different story) yet the fairgrounds has an Expo Building for horses, Barns for horses, and ect for YOU GUESSED IT horses. Not one additional amenity or venue has been added nor proposed; you know, that could make the fairgrounds more versatile along the lines of MAPS - a METROPOLITAN contributor.

They removed the FAIR out of the fairpark IMO, turning it into a large, mediocre white elephant that's even today still living on OKC's history as a 'horse-show capital'.

And to be honest, the smaller spaces in the arena (related to cattle auctioning) have ZERO place at the fair and should be at a stockyard facility. If you want to do horse sales, head out to 29th/McArthur. There's a whole sprawling facility there. Why are we wasting space/money at the fairgrounds for that? The fairgrounds are NOT a stockyards. You wanna have an FFA show, ok fine great awesome. But do not ignore the other things that WANT to go there.

Returning to the point I made (which nobody has refuted) is that the fairgrounds (which bills itself as the center of the horse show capital of the world) is wooing animal shows and gun/knife shows and rather little else.

So the horse show argument was made by a few people, and addressed by a few people.

If we think any form of event involving animals are a problem, then half the shows are non-animal shows rather than “little else”. Personally, I don’t see the big deal with having a reptile show, and I don’t see how barns pushed out other shows in favor of dogs and reptiles.

[Rover]

Again, you'll understand the confusion, considering nobody made that claim. As I understand it, the claim was made that the fairgrounds is focusing more on the animal and gun/knife shows (and, again, that people are asking for more return on their dollar, something STILL not refuted). Focusing 'more' does not mean 'to the exclusion of all others'. However, the claim WAS made that there are 0 horse shows there, quickly proven false by merely looking at their website. So you're saying you and Rover have been attempting to knock down an argument never made? I wonder if there's a term for that.

No one claims NO horse shows. That is ridiculous. I have already copped to the charge I read NRHA as NRA. I beg your forgiveness. But earlier claims were made that other events are being chased out because the focus is on favoring horse shows. I just asked to clarify who exactly was being chased out based on that notion. It seems we have a pretty steady schedule of events of wide diversity. I am SURE they are working to attract more that are non-horse shows. Doing one does not preclude the other as was insinuated.

The Bennett Center is a pretty good facility. If they had tried to spend more money, I am sure we would be howling on here. The arena is pretty bad and needs replaced. There is no way anybody will get $400 million or so to build a grand new one as has been suggested because Ft. Worth did. So, let's be realistic and build a modern multi-purpose arena...which is what I think is being proposed, isn't it?

So what other facilities need to be built there to serve the city properly? What do others do that is within our needs and budget?

Personally, I think our fairgrounds is ugly... mostly steel buildings, asphalt and concrete slabs, and little landscaping. It is very utilitarian and not a pleasant neighborhood. Will OKC spring for "charming" and what is the business model that supports significant aesthetic upgrades?

[Laramie]

You guys can debate until the cows come home.

Tulsa's Expo Center provides 354,000 square feet of column-free space under a cable-suspended roof. T-Town invested in the old 1963 Assembly Center which is just as old as the Expo Center. How many horse & trade shows does their fairgrounds complex attract which includes the 6,311 seat renovated Fairgrounds Pavilion built in 1932?

Tulsa is concerned that they will not be able to compete with OKC's new 200,000-square-foot exhibit hall/convention center & 605 room downtown Omni. Our new facilities will be high tech & cyber equipped.

Where do we go from here?

[Rover]

I think Tulsa's big unobstructed area need came from the Oilfield Equipment show. Not sure they even do that now. This month they have a car show and a Pinto Horse event.

[bombermwc]

I think we're making circles around some of the same issues here, but i think a few of those have gone off course from the intended statements.

1 - The big one for me is not that we want to get rid of any horse/livestock/etc shows. I'm not looking to doze the barns or anything like that. Would i personally care if they weren't there? Probably not. But im not so closed minded to not realize the economic impact of those said shows. For me, my issues is the ignoring of the rest of the grounds in favor of ONLY pandering to the livestock shows. We've failed to keep up the rest of the grounds in any way/shape/form. With all the buildings gone, we would be seeing some sort of masterplan that includes other areas.

2. Expanding on the master plan issue, the problem for me is that we do not have one outside of the western end of the grounds and that is only related to the livestock areas. Where's the vision for the rest of the place? Let's think outside of the box and see what we can get built here. Remember when the art museum was on the circle? We see people talking about the other things on the grounds in Dallas. We could attract some non state fair activities back...we certainly have the space to do it. We need to bring in some landscaping too so it doesn't feel so dead.

3 . Loss of iconic structures with no vision, again. Grandstands, fine they weren't in good condition but we COULD have built something new that worked better. Monorail went with it. We COULD have turn that thing into a real people mover instead of just a fair ride. It COULD have been a transit system for the fair like a train at an amusement park. Dont try to tell me the golf cart ones are the same. Part of being at the fair is the experience. Just like OKC is doing with light rail, make it a bus and it's just NOT the same thing. Arch, well it blew over. We could have fixed it....COULD have. Space Needle - long since past its time, but for the millionth time, lost opportunity to replace it with something ICONIC to the city. Observation tower with a restaurant, etc. Why not? It wouldn't have to have even been in the same place, but just toss it and forget it? And when you stop doing maintenance to cause structures to look worse so you have reason to tear them down, that's misleading.

4. Open Meetings would be the first step in all of this. Why do we let them operate in such a close-door manner? Why do we allow them to do things with no check or balance? When you're judge and jury, it's not fair. When you get the funds from the residents like they do, things should be more open so we dont have the questions we have now.

5. "They are building X so we have to keep up". That's a MAJOR problem for me with a fairgrounds. I never want us to be caught up in the city battle for fairgrounds activities. We could spend millions on these things and still lose those events. There's no promise or guarantee. Everywhere you go in professional sports, this argument is made and you do see teams move around. Eventually a city gets tired of spending money that they just GIVE to a team so they stay. The residents lose millions (and in most cases, the namesake city only as the suburbs dont actually pay the bill but certainly make their voice heard in why the city should pay it). Out goes the team to a new victim city. OKC is probably going to be there at some point with the Thunder. But lets not confuse Pro money with Fair money. That's something on a totally different scale and the livestock money is a drop in that bucket comparatively.

5. So you want the arena, fine. But lets make a non-livestock related project part of the package. How about for ever livestock project we do from here on out, we also include something elsewhere on the grounds? Doesn't even need to be equal value or anything, but i want to see something more being done. And i dont mean let's built 10K worth of fencing along with a 15 million arena (or whatever value). I think at least a 1/10th of the value is an absolute minimum, i'd really like to see 1/4th. Yes that means a bigger campaign for fund raising. But if it's legit and needed, i think you'll see support. Think of it like a school district bond election. Spread your love out around the grounds so everyone feels that love a little. It might take longer to get to the goal, but you'll have a lot more fans on the way. And that arena better still be able to host those OSSAA events. Those weeks worth of basketball and wrestling are an impact. It's crazy how full that arena is at that time. When i was in high school, our "basketball pep band" was asked to play at the state wrestling finals. I thought it was a little weird, but it was a blast. The place was packed and the fans even yelled thank yous to us from up in the stands because they said it made it a lot more fun. With 8 or 12 mats worth of matches going on at once, that place was a constant buzz. It's not the same having it at smaller place like casino arenas. The electricity just isn't the same. And talk about those high school basketball games. Several games a day and the place is almost full with each one, for days or weeks. If you've never been to a small-school state playoff game, its nuts. My high school hosted several of those each year and so the band worked concessions. It was absolutely nuts how many people came to those games. Parking lots overflowing at the school. You cram 3-4k people in a high school gym and it's a level of awesome crazy that is unparalleled. Up that scale at the fairgrounds arena too!

[HOT ROD]

couldn't have said it better bomber. ...

[Plutonic Panda]

Here are some renderings:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-bqdq_32ihc

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not the biggest fan but I don't think its that bad. I wish we'd aim a little higher however.

[bombermwc]

That video doesn't include the livestock selling floor. Did that get removed (like it should be)?

I'm still not clear on how the existing structure doesn't serve the same purpose that the new one would given what they are planning for. And for those events, you don't exactly need a new building. Are we seriously talking about suites for the ice capades and horse shows?

[LakeEffect]

That video doesn't include the livestock selling floor. Did that get removed (like it should be)?

I'm still not clear on how the existing structure doesn't serve the same purpose that the new one would given what they are planning for. And for those events, you don't exactly need a new building. Are we seriously talking about suites for the ice capades and horse shows?

The actual structure of the existing one is in need of replacement, especially the entire roof structure... Therefore, it makes sense to replace with a better version if we're going to spend the money to fix all of the structural issues.

[Pete]

Detailed look at proposed new State Fair Coliseum

As we were first to report in August 2016, the board of the state fairgrounds commissioned a study by consultants Populous to determine the feasibility and cost to construct a new multi-purpose facility to replace the aging Jim Norick Arena.

[PRBREAK][/PRBREAK]

Norick Arena seats 8,500 in its typical configuration but can accommodate up to 11,000. Originally named the State Fairgrounds Arena, it opened in 19651990s current facility received a renovation and slight expansion as part of the first MAPS initiative in the 1990's.

The City of Oklahoma City has used Populous to assist in the site selection and design of the MAPS 3 Convention Center and also commissioned other studies from the Kansas City-based firm, which has had a hand in dozens of arenas, ballparks and stadiums around the world.

As the vote for MAPS 4 approaches later this year, Mayor David Holt has mentioned this particular project may be included.

As proposed, the new arena would sit slightly southeast of the present arena site and be completely new from the ground up. It would also be attached to the new livestock barns that were recently added as part of MAPS 2 and directly across from the new Expo Building, which was recently completed as part of MAPS 3.

The plans drawn by Populous and ADG also call for a small horse/livestock arena to be built between the existing barns and the new facility, along with more barn and multi-purpose space.

Other features include two large plazas, suites, and retractable upper-level seating. A lounge and restaurants are also part of the proposal.

Flexibility would allow for the easy configuration for equestrian/rodeo with a capacity of 5,500 to basketball, circus, ice shows and concerts that could host over 9,000 attendees.

A phased construction plan would allow Norick Arena to remain operational during the construction of the Coliseum.

The established budget is just over $96 million. The Populous study claims an annual economic impact of $330 million.

If the plan becomes part of a MAPS 4 vote, it would do so against a background of public backlash surrounding several recent demolitions at State Fair Park, including the landmark Space Needle which came down late last year. Concern has also been raised about similar removals of the monorail and speedway, as many see the park as eliminating sentimental favorites in favor of equine and livestock facilities.

The State Fair Park is operated by Oklahoma State Fair, Inc. on behalf of the City of Oklahoma City, which owns all the property and buildings. Board meetings of Oklahoma State Fair, Inc. are not public, nor is detailed financial information.

[HOT ROD]

I predict a resounding NO vote on MAPS 4 if this is included. I'm not saying this shouldn't be built, I'm saying it's time for the Fairgrounds to stop expecting blank cheques on Maps and instead invest in themselves.

It is time for the Fair Board to use their existing revenue streams (which we still have no idea) to invest in their venues. They are always the first to show up to the trough with this crap yet are never held accountable for what they have and were allowed to destroy what the fair park was.

I strongly urge the mayor and chamber to pass on the fairgrounds and let them build this themselves. ....

[catch22]

I really like the design.

I don’t like MAPS paying for this. The citizens of OKC have written too many blank checks to the Fairgrounds. Time for this horse to stand on its own legs.

[Pryor Tiger]

I would agree that if this is to be in MAPS, they need to have a self funded plan to renovate the rest of the fairgrounds and make it a year round destination for more activities and events. Add back some fun elements like a space needle type item, would be neat to have an observation tower out there - would have nice views of downtown and the surrounding areas.

[BoulderSooner]

These are city owned venues as would be this new building

And I don’t think the general public is anti the fair grounds at all. And this arena will have tons of events for the people of Okc going forward.

[Ross MacLochness]

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

[BDP]

I imagine the plan is to compete with the Ohio Expo Center in general, as they get some one of the biggest horse shows in the country every year:

https://ohioexpocenter.com/

The Coliseum is the best analogy to this project:

https://ohioexpocenter.com/rental-facilities/coliseum/

In terms of making the fair grounds a year round facility, wouldn't something like this be right in line with that concept, since it can be used for so many types of events? Obviously, the horse shows are the cash cows of significant economic influx they are chasing, but this seems to go beyond that. Not saying MAPS is the way to fund it, but I think the potential benefits of the facility aren't without merit or to be dismissed out of hand.

[shawnw]

It's been said ad nauseum, hard to believe anyone doesn't know.

[jccouger]

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

Then it should be able to be self sustaining?

I'll vote no on Maps if this is included.

[Jake]

"It's gonna be a 'no' from me, dawg."

[jonny d]

Then it should be able to be self sustaining?

I'll vote no on Maps if this is included.

Self-sustaining, but not self-building. Just saying. Once it is built, then the Fairgrounds could be tasked with maintenance. I doubt they have $100 million just laying around.

[Pete]

The 3 big projects the Chamber seems to be behind are:

1. State Fair Coliseum
2. Energy Soccer Stadium
3. I-235 Innovation Link cap


Not sure what else is going to end up being included, but none of those 3 seem to be very popular.

[Pete]

As far as revenue streams, the Fairgrounds could merely issue revenue bonds based on future income.

This is exactly what the city does all the time; it's how the $967MM Better Streets, Safer City is being completely funded.


Also, keep in mind that there is currently a 5.5% room tax and 6/11 goes directly to the fairgrounds, 1/11 goes to the convention and visitors bureau, and 4/11 goes to general convention and tourism. I'm sure that part of the 5/11 not specifically earmarked for the fairgrounds is spent on promoting events held there.

There also seems to be a movement afoot to raise that tax, based on the Chambers questions to city council candidates before the recent election: "Do you favor a 1 cent increase in the City’s Hotel/Motel tax to promote tourism in OKC?"