Flying Hidden City

[Jersey Boss]

Curious as to whether anybody has used this tactic and if so how much did you save?
Airline sues Web site that helps travelers find ?hidden city? ticketing discounts - The Washington Post

[venture]

Southwest I believe is the only airline that doesn't forbid it, though you can't do it if you check any bags. Also you lose any frequent flyer miles/points when you do it since the original trip isn't done.

For me the risk was always too high, even though I do not check bags anymore.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I've done it a couple of times, but it was before a site made it easy to figure out.

Now, I'd rather just book my flight and be done...But that's because I'm older and have less time and more money.

[Mel]

Even if I did it I would not "prance" out of the airport.

[Jersey Boss]

Southwest I believe is the only airline that doesn't forbid it, though you can't do it if you check any bags. Also you lose any frequent flyer miles/points when you do it since the original trip isn't done.

For me the risk was always too high, even though I do not check bags anymore.

Risk?

[catch22]

If you develop a pattern of it, the airline will forbid you from flying on them in the future.

It's nothing short of fraud.

[technico]

I've done this twice for OKC > LAX > Palm Springs to get to LA for about 75% of the same flight booked just to LA. Warning though - If you book from Palm Springs to OKC return flight, they will not let you on in LA - the ticket clears as a no show and any standbys will get the seat.

[venture]

Risk?

Violation of Contract of Carriage for most airlines. Any remaining segments on the reservation are cancelled out, miles/points lost, and remaining ticket value forfeited. As Catch said, some airlines get aggressive enough to block you from flying them in the future if they notice a pattern.

[catch22]

I've done this twice for OKC > LAX > Palm Springs to get to LA for about 75% of the same flight booked just to LA. Warning though - If you book from Palm Springs to OKC return flight, they will not let you on in LA - the ticket clears as a no show and any standbys will get the seat.

Just for your information, airlines have sophisticated software that is actively scanning for HCT violations, such as yours. They all get grouped together in their own database -- and every file is reviewed. If you've only done it once or twice, it's probably pretty low in the queue to be reviewed...it might sit in the queue for years as other people who do it often get flagged and jump higher in the queue to be reviewed. Airlines have their own team of revenue management analysts who specifically deal with fraud such as your case. You have a 40 hour a week job, and so do they. This is what they come in to work to do all day long, HCT..Mileage fraud..you name it, they are examining it. Like I said, though, if you've only done it only once...you probably don't have a file in the system. Done it twice...you probably have a file but it's at the bottom of some database that they will probably never getting around to reviewing.

But if you keep doing it, your file will build up and eventually float into a priority queue. Keep on doing it, and it will get flagged and will be reviewed very very quickly. If they discover you are a repeat violater, they will first probably force you to forfeit any and all mileage credits, status, etc. and depending on how severe may add you to the blacklist. If it's really bad, they'll notify other airlines to review their records.

It is fraud. You are entering a contract to use the service as you purchased it. They are removing at least 2 seats from inventory that would have been sold. One was used for a cheap connection, thus losing the value of potentially selling it to someone who would have paid full price, and the other seat was removed from inventory, again it could have been sold to a higher value customer...

Just some things to think about. You sign a contract, you need to stick to it.

You can't enter a contract to purchase a car, and then decide later you don't like the price and decide to stop making payments and expect the dealer to be okay with it. They gave you the keys in return for your signature on a legal contract to fulfill your duties as the contract instructed.

[Martin]

It is fraud. You are entering a contract to use the service as you purchased it.

i fail to see how it's fraud. if i sign a lease for 1 year, pay for the entire year, and then only live in the place for 8 months... have i committed fraud? that doesn't seem too different than what's happening here. if i pay for the seat, why am i contractually obligated to actually use it? -M

[CuatrodeMayo]

You can't enter a contract to purchase a car, and then decide later you don't like the price and decide to stop making payments and expect the dealer to be okay with it. They gave you the keys in return for your signature on a legal contract to fulfill your duties as the contract instructed.

Wouldn't be more like buying a car, driving the car into a lake a few months later, but continuing to pay the payments?

EDIT: Fraud implies illegality. While HCT is against airline rules, I don't think it is illegal.

[catch22]

i fail to see how it's fraud. if i sign a lease for 1 year, pay for the entire year, and then only live in the place for 8 months... have i committed fraud? that doesn't seem too different than what's happening here. if i pay for the seat, why am i contractually obligated to actually use it? -M

Because the contract you signed stated you would be present to travel on all the segments on your ticket.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Then it is Breach of Contract, for which you may be civilly liable, not criminally.

[Martin]

Then it is Breach of Contract, for which you may be civilly liable, not criminally.

this. -M

[catch22]

The car was a poor example. It's like signing a contract with a company to buy 2,000 units of a highly perishable item in bulk at a cheaper price than the 1000 you need. And you accept the 1,000 and let the company you purchased them from sit on the expired product. Sure you didn't use it, but now they can't sell it either as its expired.

[kevinpate]

Uh, just an FYI y'all. Fraud is a deception, misrepresentation. It can exist in a civil wrong context as well as in a criminal law context.

[Jersey Boss]

If this is "fraud", then isn't the act of overbooking "fraud" as well? Sorry I can't accept this as being any more fraudulent then choosing to buy a 20 oz. soda for 1.00 instead of a 12 oz. soda for a 1.25 and throwing away 8 oz. of it. As far as the above example, same as the soda, what I do with the excess is really none of the business of the seller. Additionally if it was fraud, the airlines would be going after folks for the fare and not just the forfeiting of miles. In this day of being charged for pillows, checked luggage, the airlines are squeezing the consumer for every penny. Might be unethical, but not fraudulent.

[catch22]

Uh, just an FYI y'all. Fraud is a deception, misrepresentation. It can exist in a civil wrong context as well as in a criminal law context.

Exactly. You are fraudulently agreeing to purchase more product at a cheaper rate with the intention of not fulfilling the contract.

[catch22]

If this is "fraud", then isn't the act of overbooking "fraud" as well? Sorry I can't accept this as being any more fraudulent then choosing to buy a 20 oz. soda for 1.00 instead of a 12 oz. soda for a 1.25 and throwing away 8 oz. of it. As far as the above example, same as the soda, what I do with the excess is really none of the business of the seller. Additionally if it was fraud, the airlines would be going after folks for the fare and not just the forfeiting of miles. In this day of being charged for pillows, checked luggage, the airlines are squeezing the consumer for every penny. Might be unethical, but not fraudulent.

You did not enter a contract to drink the entire soda, whereas you agreed to travel on the full itinerary. You also agreed in the contract that you were aware of overbooking.

[Martin]

Uh, just an FYI y'all. Fraud is a deception, misrepresentation. It can exist in a civil wrong context as well as in a criminal law context.

hmm... didn't know that. i thought that 'fraud' was a purely criminal thing. -M

[Martin]

The car was a poor example. It's like signing a contract with a company to buy 2,000 units of a highly perishable item in bulk at a cheaper price than the 1000 you need. And you accept the 1,000 and let the company you purchased them from sit on the expired product. Sure you didn't use it, but now they can't sell it either as its expired.

i don't think this is the best example, either. in your hypothetical, the product that "i" refused to take delivery of has costs associated with disposal. I think this would be more similar to "me" contracting to use 2,000 units of warehouse space but "i" end up using only the 1,000 units "i" want/need.

[Jersey Boss]

You did not enter a contract to drink the entire soda, whereas you agreed to travel on the full itinerary. You also agreed in the contract that you were aware of overbooking.

You have any examples you can document on those claims? Again if this is so, why are the airlines not pursuing collecting the full fare?

[CuatrodeMayo]

You did not enter a contract to drink the entire soda, whereas you agreed to travel on the full itinerary. You also agreed in the contract that you were aware of overbooking.

Let's say I DID enter into a contract with the seller of soda to drink the entire soda but threw away part of it. What are the damages to the soda seller due to my breach of contract?

Similarly, What are the damages to the airline if my butt is not in the seat that I paid for?

[Martin]

found this on American airlines:

Dear,

Let me take the opportunity to clarify American Airlines position
on hidden city or point beyond ticketing. Purchasing a ticket to a point beyond
the actual destination and getting off the aircraft at the connecting point is
unethical. It is tantamount to switching price tags to obtain a lower price on
goods sold at department stores. Passengers who attempt to use hidden city
tickets may be denied boarding, have the remainder of their ticket confiscated
and may be assessed the difference between the fare paid and the lowest
applicable fare.

Because we compete with other airlines with different
route structures, we sometimes find it necessary to give a traveler who is
traveling beyond a connecting point a better price than travelers who are just
traveling to the connecting point. For example, a passenger who is traveling to
Austin, Texas from Los Angeles can go on one airline via Phoenix for a price
that is lower than the cost of traveling on American between Los Angeles and
Dallas. If we want to offer the same price to Austin as the other airline, but
the only way we can get travelers there is via Dallas, we find ourselves
charging the Austin passengers less than the Dallas passengers.

Although
the issuance and usage of hidden city tickets is not illegal in the sense that
one could be fined or sent to jail by the government, it is unethical and a
breach of a passengers contract with AA. Both tariff rule 100AA and American's
Condition of Carriage, which are incorporated into every ticket sold by American
as part of our agreement to carry the passenger named on the ticket, bar hidden
city ticketing. In addition, it violates the agencies' contract to act as an
agent for American Airlines.

If American Airlines continues to lose
revenue as a result of hidden city transactions, the fares we charge must
inevitably rise.

Sincerely,

while contractual obligation is given a mention at the end of the letter, aa's primary argument against 'hidden city ticketing' is that it's unethical. you'd think aa would lead with the contract angle if it were really that iron-clad. -M

[Martin]

here is aa's conditions of carriage

under 'compliance with terms and conditions of sale:

American specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as:
...
Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing: Purchase of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination.
...
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:

1. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary,
2. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
3. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage,
4. Refuse to refund an otherwise refundable ticket, or
5. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary