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Thread: BOK Park Plaza

  1. #176

    Norman Re: 499 Sheridan

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    Hines is developing this in Denver, also above ground parking and retail an afterthought.

  2. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Here is one of the better on-site parking garages I have personally seen. This is the 100 North Tampa building in Tampa, FL. The ground floor is a bank lobby and then everything up to the window grid is parking garage. The spiral drive on each end of the parking allows people to go to directly to their floor and not wind through the whole garage.


  3. #178

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    ^^^

    I like that. I wouldn't mind seeing a few buildings like that here.

  4. #179

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Why are we bringing other cities into this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ^

    Very good point about mitigating the impact of the garages. We clearly have to have them and plenty more are coming.

    Perhaps this is a good use for TIF dollars: to provide incentives to put some parking underground; to make them look very nice; and to provide as much street interaction as possible.

    In that case, perhaps the city should offer TIF dollars to Hines for these purposes as it pertains to this project. Might be money well spent.
    This is the problem when you (we, OKC) don't have any standards for how TIF money is awarded and subsequently spent.

  5. #180

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    They plan to start very soon.

    There may be some subtle tweaks but this is not like the Devon Tower project that went on for a couple of years between the reveal and start of construction.

    I'm told this project is funded and ready to start bulldozing buildings. And as mentioned, they are seeking approval to do that next month.
    So? Clearly whether they are "ready to start" or not, they are going to be forced to respect the downtown development process. Thank God. Anyone making this major of an investment in downtown should especially support design standards to protect their investment in the future.

    Otherwise, we should throw up a Motel 6 across the street just because its "ready to start" with "financing" or however Motel 6's get built.

  6. #181

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Let me say, I feel more than a little vindicated with this summary.
    This is the thing about you, is that it's not about you. Stop soaking up the glory and maybe there will be more left over for your cause or issue, especially if you really are right (which you always are, in my observation).

  7. #182

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by dankrutka View Post
    Per Steve's article, who is this Chuck Ainsworth fellow who "argued in favor of the demolition, saying the targeted buildings 'are functionally obsolete.'"

    Weren't these buildings being fully used before tenants were kicked out? How are they "functionally obsolete?"
    He is somebody that utilizes public subsidies for his own historic preservation projects, just saying

  8. #183

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I may not agree with some (even a lot) of their decisions but this is taking things too far IMO.
    Come on, you were raising concerns not long ago about how David Wanzer got removed from DDRC...

  9. #184

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Here is one of the better on-site parking garages I have personally seen. This is the 100 North Tampa building in Tampa, FL. The ground floor is a bank lobby and then everything up to the window grid is parking garage. The spiral drive on each end of the parking allows people to go to directly to their floor and not wind through the whole garage.

    Kerry, if the workers can go directly from the parking garage into their floor how is that any better for street activity than having a sky bridge from the parking garage to their offices? I do understand that the esthetics are better but that isn't always the point you are trying to make.

  10. #185

  11. #186

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Hoping to add something productive to this thread. The fact that historic buildings will be demolished to create this tower and these garages is saddening to me, but I am personally still Very excited for this develpment.

    I have seen a lot of talk about the "twist" and the statement that it does not make the building "more interesting". I 95% agree with that statement, but the building sitting on an angle does something MUCH more important in my opinion. The angle allows every office (or hallway of cubicals) on the East side of the tower to face the Myriad Gardens and possibly even give a view of the convention center and new park south of that.

    I state the view of the Myriad Gardens (and new city park) as an important and exciting aspect of this project because of what that view has done for me personally. I grew up in a rural town outside of OKC and never imagined falling in love with downtown OKC. A concrete jungle just wasn't appealing to me.

    After interning at Devon for nearly 2 years I can say now that I love downtown OKC. The thing that started that love wasn't the proximity to restaurants, the pedestrian traffic, or street front shops. It was the first time I walked into a lounge that overlooks the Myriad Gardens and blocks of empty lots south of that. The beauty of the Gardens from that view was breathtaking, and I could imagine a park that stretched all the way to skydance bridge. Being able to look at a beautiful park at work and then live within walking distance to that park became very exciting. I lived in Legacy (Avana) apartments for 2 summers and enjoyed having a peaceful green space to get away to. In my opinion, looking one way out your office and seeing a beautiful park, and looking the other and seeing a beautiful elementary school is a moment that could get almost anyone to Consider downtown living. So my point is that there are more factors involved with the "twist" of the building than people seem to be recognizing. Also, the small "plaza" to the east of the building is still substantially smaller than Devon's lawn area where the Giant Christmas ornament sits and I don't see anyone complaining about the pedestrian interaction with that area.

    I know there are valid arguments for and against every part of the design, but with it this far along in the process, I am choosing to look at this project as a positive thing.

    Since it seems like the parking garages are the only items that aren't going to pass the review committee, I will throw in my 2 cents there.

    I agree that the retail space obviously needs to be enlarged. I don't know how big the Devon garage stores are, but I do imagine them leasing out those spaces in the future.

    I think that a great use of the parking garage “retail space” across the street from John Rex Elementary would be a Child Care Center. Imagine living downtown, walking your child to school, walking to work, walking back to get your child at the Child Care Center at 5:00, and then walking home with them. The fact that your child could be escorted across the street at 3:00 and picked up around 5:00 would be extremely convenient even if you didn’t live downtown. Also, during the summer months you could bring your children to work with you and walk them to daycare.

    I think it would be Fantastic if they could put at least 1 or 2 levels of parking below ground. The Devon garage has 1 level below ground. However, I don't know any of the complexities involved with doing that. Driving up more than 9 stories in a parking garage does feel like driving to the moon, so I understand the height restrictions.

    My suggestion would be to build the garage strong enough to support a few levels of apartments on top of it, with a green roof on top of the apartments. This would do several things. It would add residences above a street that could potentially have several retail shops on it, it would add another function to a necessary (but space consuming) downtown structure, and it would set an unpresedented "green building" element for downtown parking garages. In addition to that, the green roof would be much prettier to look at from the North side of the tower than the top of a traditional parking garage would be.

    I apologize for butchering the rendering below in ms paint, but I tried my hand at creating a visual of my thoughts.

    One last piece of input I wanted to voice is about the skybridge across Hudson. I don't really think it takes away from street interaction. When (or if) the parking garages on both sides of the street get retail shops or restaurants, people will still be able to easily access those. I think the skybridge adds safety and convenience. Crossing Hudson during lunch can not only be dangerous but could potentially inhibit the flow of traffic. Also, since the restaurants at 499 will be on the second floor, if you are going from the Devon tower to 499 for lunch you will have to go up one floor at some point anyways. Floors 1 and 2 of the DEC are open to the public, and it looks like the same will be true for 499.

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  12. #187

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    That is basically a very short rehash of everything that has already been discussed.

  13. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Kerry, if the workers can go directly from the parking garage into their floor how is that any better for street activity than having a sky bridge from the parking garage to their offices?
    Directly to their floor of the parking garage, instead of winding their way through the entire parking structure.

  14. #189

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Directly to their floor of the parking garage, instead of winding their way through the entire parking structure.
    And that has nothing to do with my question to Kerry.

  15. #190

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Gotta love this comment:

    How can there be two too many parking garages downtown where there is virtually NO PARKING ? Idiots in charge maybe ?
    With all these developments, one thing that's common is parking is a much greater concern to the average OKC resident than good urbanism. It's for this reason that not providing enough will kill development downtown. Kerry's suggestion to just not build parking, hoping to force use of mass transit (which doesn't exist yet) would simply not work here.

  16. #191

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Parking is the issue everywhere, not just OKC. Even in Chicago people in the north side neighborhoods go all NIMBY pitchforks raised over parking with any new project. OKC's need for parking is not unique, and we all know we are just facing a short-term crunch. We need to figure out how to finally complete an area and allow people to at long last rediscover downtown after 20 years of nothing but change. We lose way more average OKC people who are afraid to come down due to the construction than anything else like parking, which is really a non-factor unless you just need something to complain about. There are also people who don't know, want, or seemingly deserve "better" whatever that may be. Theoretically that's why Moore and Yukon exist and we don't need to apologize to anyone that our downtown isn't good at emulating that particular ambiance.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoDowntownOKC View Post
    Hoping to add something productive to this thread. The fact that historic buildings will be demolished to create this tower and these garages is saddening to me, but I am personally still Very excited for this develpment.

    I have seen a lot of talk about the "twist" and the statement that it does not make the building "more interesting". I 95% agree with that statement, but the building sitting on an angle does something MUCH more important in my opinion. The angle allows every office (or hallway of cubicals) on the East side of the tower to face the Myriad Gardens and possibly even give a view of the convention center and new park south of that.

    I state the view of the Myriad Gardens (and new city park) as an important and exciting aspect of this project because of what that view has done for me personally. I grew up in a rural town outside of OKC and never imagined falling in love with downtown OKC. A concrete jungle just wasn't appealing to me.

    After interning at Devon for nearly 2 years I can say now that I love downtown OKC. The thing that started that love wasn't the proximity to restaurants, the pedestrian traffic, or street front shops. It was the first time I walked into a lounge that overlooks the Myriad Gardens and blocks of empty lots south of that. The beauty of the Gardens from that view was breathtaking, and I could imagine a park that stretched all the way to skydance bridge. Being able to look at a beautiful park at work and then live within walking distance to that park became very exciting. I lived in Legacy (Avana) apartments for 2 summers and enjoyed having a peaceful green space to get away to. In my opinion, looking one way out your office and seeing a beautiful park, and looking the other and seeing a beautiful elementary school is a moment that could get almost anyone to Consider downtown living. So my point is that there are more factors involved with the "twist" of the building than people seem to be recognizing. Also, the small "plaza" to the east of the building is still substantially smaller than Devon's lawn area where the Giant Christmas ornament sits and I don't see anyone complaining about the pedestrian interaction with that area.

    I know there are valid arguments for and against every part of the design, but with it this far along in the process, I am choosing to look at this project as a positive thing.

    Since it seems like the parking garages are the only items that aren't going to pass the review committee, I will throw in my 2 cents there.

    I agree that the retail space obviously needs to be enlarged. I don't know how big the Devon garage stores are, but I do imagine them leasing out those spaces in the future.

    I think that a great use of the parking garage “retail space” across the street from John Rex Elementary would be a Child Care Center. Imagine living downtown, walking your child to school, walking to work, walking back to get your child at the Child Care Center at 5:00, and then walking home with them. The fact that your child could be escorted across the street at 3:00 and picked up around 5:00 would be extremely convenient even if you didn’t live downtown. Also, during the summer months you could bring your children to work with you and walk them to daycare.

    I think it would be Fantastic if they could put at least 1 or 2 levels of parking below ground. The Devon garage has 1 level below ground. However, I don't know any of the complexities involved with doing that. Driving up more than 9 stories in a parking garage does feel like driving to the moon, so I understand the height restrictions.

    My suggestion would be to build the garage strong enough to support a few levels of apartments on top of it, with a green roof on top of the apartments. This would do several things. It would add residences above a street that could potentially have several retail shops on it, it would add another function to a necessary (but space consuming) downtown structure, and it would set an unpresedented "green building" element for downtown parking garages. In addition to that, the green roof would be much prettier to look at from the North side of the tower than the top of a traditional parking garage would be.

    I apologize for butchering the rendering below in ms paint, but I tried my hand at creating a visual of my thoughts.

    One last piece of input I wanted to voice is about the skybridge across Hudson. I don't really think it takes away from street interaction. When (or if) the parking garages on both sides of the street get retail shops or restaurants, people will still be able to easily access those. I think the skybridge adds safety and convenience. Crossing Hudson during lunch can not only be dangerous but could potentially inhibit the flow of traffic. Also, since the restaurants at 499 will be on the second floor, if you are going from the Devon tower to 499 for lunch you will have to go up one floor at some point anyways. Floors 1 and 2 of the DEC are open to the public, and it looks like the same will be true for 499.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Your excitement over this project, and positive spin, is appreciated. However it's a long-held and well-studied concept that skybridges are street life killers. Also, I don't think you've really considered any of the things you're excited about. The restaurant on Floor 2 will do what exactly for the street life? As far as shops... you mean the retail spaces that are too far and removed from each other to attract any actual retailers? They'll be phenomenal display cases for corporate banners, though, which really do a lot for the street life.

    I'm also not sure what you're point about pedestrians crossing Hudson inhibiting traffic flow. There are wide sidewalks, designated crossings, and it's all bordering our central park. There should be so many pedestrians crossing that traffic IS inhibited. That would be the successful thing to happen to our city, so let's go find a way to make sure that doesn't happen! I love OKC and just think that if we make a few small changes here, this project can do for us now what Devon Tower did for us 3-4 years ago. The changes should be easy enough to make that we can get on about the business of being excited about this, watching it get built, and then enjoying a new addition to our cityscape.

  17. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    In OKC you will likely never see parking structures fully integrated into the base of a tower. That's reality.

  18. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    There is a lack of political will to do so in the aftermath of the bombing. This is openly discussed in conversations on this topic locally.

  19. #194

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanized View Post
    There is a lack of political will to do so in the aftermath of the bombing. This is openly discussed in conversations on this topic locally.
    That hadn't occurred to me, but it's quite valid. In the instant case, using quick and dirty math to incorporate all the parking within the tower footprint, it would take 21 stories the same size as the podium to accomodate their stated parking needs. If parking floors are limited to the footprint of the tower proper, 38 stories are required. In either case it's just not feasible and would drastically change the design requirements.

    I do think it can work nicely into the lower end of mid-rise, though.

  20. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Urbanized retweeted this and I thought it would be pretty relevant here.

    Preserving historic buildings risky but still best option | Whatcom Opinion Columns | The Bellingham Herald

  21. #196

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    ...Your excitement over this project, and positive spin, is appreciated. However it's a long-held and well-studied concept that skybridges are street life killers. Also, I don't think you've really considered any of the things you're excited about...
    I don't think GoDowntownOKC's comments are "spin", I think it's an honest assessment that is in line with how many people feel about a project like this. I have to admit I'm a little mystified by some people's nearly dogmatic dislike of Sky Bridges. You know what kills street life? 20 degree F weather with a 40 knot wind howling out of the north! I've worked downtown OKC over 10 years. My group and I walk all over the place at lunch to different establishments. When the weather is bad, we often are in a sky bridge at some point going to an establishment quite a distance away to spend money as a group in a place we would not have gone to if we had to walk in the cold rain and driving wind. That particular business and others like it benefit from our little treks.

    When the weather is nicer, we always walk outside, walking from anywhere to the Museum Cafe, Joey's all the way to Bricktown on foot. Sometimes we track down a food truck and just sit either in the Devon Plaza area, Myriad Gardens or where ever. So from my perspective, the much hated (here anyway) occasional weather related stroll through a Sky Bridge is a convenience. I'd much prefer a nice walk outside, even when it is cold. But, driving cold rain and 0F wind chills will have us not going out for lunch or taking a indoor route if possible to where we want to go. Not long ago we were paused overlooking a street on such a nasty day and saw some guy nailed by truck splashing a puddle of water and someone commented, "I wonder if that was they guy who's always whining about Sky Bridges on OKCTALK?".

    People can and will always nitpick, but over all, this project is a big positive for the downtown area. Don't let an obsession with perfection be the enemy of progress. There are a lot of things I would like to see right now, yesterday really in OKC. Parking garages everywhere on this block, I get that distaste. I'd much rather have the ability to hop on a light rail service from Edmond, get off at the Santa Fe station and walk to work. But that option doesn't exist so the parking issue needs to be addressed.

  22. #197

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    The planned skybridges are particularly a bad problem here because Devon already has a bunch of un-utilized retail space in their garage along Hudson, and there will be more now along Main and Sheridan that they will have to lease out.

    I remember when the space was added along Hudson, they said something to the effect that they would put in false fronts "until the area develops". Well, not it's being developed, but in a way that will not add to the street like and thus retail demand.

    I fear we are going to have those Devon windows forever and this new retail space may meet the same fate.

  23. #198

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid Burgess View Post
    All three buildings out my window have onsite parking. The smaller building is hard to see but that bright red light is a parking sign and that's the entrance.

    Oklahoma City folks only need to take a quick flight up here to see how to infill in your downtown.

    Attachment 9798Attachment 9799Attachment 9800
    I bet they don't have enough on site parking for the entire building. And if I am correct in that assumption. They would not be viable new builds in Okc

  24. #199

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Gotta love this comment:



    With all these developments, one thing that's common is parking is a much greater concern to the average OKC resident than good urbanism. It's for this reason that not providing enough will kill development downtown. Kerry's suggestion to just not build parking, hoping to force use of mass transit (which doesn't exist yet) would simply not work here.
    This is 100% correct. And the other option is the company will simply build off of memorial. Or Hefner parkway. Or Broadway ext.

  25. #200

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The planned skybridges are particularly a bad problem here because Devon already has a bunch of un-utilized retail space in their garage along Hudson, and there will be more now along Main and Sheridan that they will have to lease out.

    I remember when the space was added along Hudson, they said something to the effect that they would put in false fronts "until the area develops". Well, not it's being developed, but in a way that will not add to the street like and thus retail demand.

    I fear we are going to have those Devon windows forever and this new retail space may meet the same fate.
    There is a big difference Devon add then window boxes as a concession. To ddrc. They didn't want them and they said ok we will add these so the ability is there in the future to add retail. They never wanted them or intended to use then. As there is not empty space behind them. Only parking space that they would have to remove to add the retail


    In this case they are building retail space. I bet that it will be used.

    Also don't see how they can not approve the sky bridges and connect to the system that includes them and the underground. This system has continuously been approve over the last 20 years. And is an asset to Okc

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