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Thread: BOK Park Plaza

  1. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    In nearly two decades of posting on and reading message boards, I have never utilized the ignore feature on one until this very moment.

  2. #102

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    KayneMo and his idea was read and discussed in the meeting today. They distributed his model on paper to the group. Nice shout out to OKCTalk!

    Just watched the video from the meeting. Here's a quick summary.


    John Pickard of Pickard Chilton took them through a big presentation. Nothing he said was new as far as I could tell. Also had a landscape architect talk about the plaza.

    Afterwards, most of the committee made comments, which included:

    • Disappointed there was no attempt to save any buildings.
    • Skybridges are not good urban planning and detracts from streetlife
    • Very concerned that only a parking garage will be located at Walker & Sheridan. Key intersection and Elementary school is right across the street. (several members echoed this point).
    • Depth of retail will not lend itself to many uses.
    • Retail space is only 2% of the total garage space.
    • Over 50% of the entire block will be parking.
    • There are three other adjacent parking garages; Devon garage in particular has similar materials. All this massing is a concern.
    • Why not eliminate north garage and add more levels to west garage? Why not add underground levels. (Pickard semi-addressed this one with a complete non-answer).
    • Clayco is proposing to build the most expensive apartments in town at Walker & Sheridan and will be looking into and on top of a parking garage.
    • Walker needs activity; key street and there is only blank parking in their proposal.


    Pickard thanked everyone for the comments and said they were taking copious notes and their ideas to heart. (Reminder they have already submitted a design application for the next meeting. Could be supplemented / changed.)

    The only citizen to speak was Jane Jenkins who is President of Downtown OKC Inc. She said she was there as a private citizen and her opinions were her own.

    Her concern was the plaza. Said she offices in Leadership Square and never sees anyone using that large plaza, the one at SandRidge or BOK Plaza. Said that this building fronts Myriad Gardens all would be better served if the building would be pulled to corner and that the park be the doorstep rather than another vastly under utilized corporate plaza.

    The committee thanked Pickard and that was that.

    No one from Preservation Oklahoma spoke.

  3. #103

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Do you like the Dubai Skyline?
    It wouldn't suck! Panda, I think part of me wants OKC do just be better than OK. It's done so much yet holds itself back by poor decisons far too often. It frustrates me and I want this city to be great. I applaud all the progress and things that have been done over the years, but anyone tell me why a city like Tulsa can have several taller skyscrapers over 500 feet and we slap up a beautiful snow white and all the dwarfs around it? It just doesn't make any sense that we can't get one proposal over 500 feet.

  4. #104

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    I am glad they at least voiced some obvious concerns. Now if they put their foot in the sand and require some changes remain to be seen. I've been thinking about it and Devon needs the parking the office space. As much as money talks and influence they have in the city, the city should realize they have the upper hand and require changes. What can Devon do? build the tower elsewhere? That hardly fits into their plan. Preftakes has pumped money into this site so it has to turn into something. He can't keep paying for empty properties forever. It's time the city puts it's foot down and controls this situation.

  5. #105

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Architect2010 View Post
    At this point, you are beating the dead horse into pulp. If you really think that the Devon is gonna look like the "middle finger" after this is all said and done, then I suggest you try sitting at the intersection of I-40 & Western, headed north. That view ALREADY looks like the middle finger you dread so badly, but after these proposed towers I don't see how one could perceive that image at all. Unless 10 high rises and one skyscraper looks like a middle finger to you... but you've made it pretty clear that's about all you gather from our future skyline. ;P

    Here's a fun note: Devon at 844' not only sticks out in our city, but it would in most cities. Devon would be the 15th tallest complete building in NYC at the current moment and tied for 12th in Chicago. These giant cities have hundreds, if not thousands, of structures that are above 5 stories, yet Devon would still be in top 20 in each. Swap out Chicago and NYC for a middle-sized metro like us and you start to see how rare a tower like Devon is for a city our size. So in context to Devon, OF COURSE these new towers are "short", but if we would stop obsessing over Devon's height then you might see these towers for what they really are; 5 great highrises [according to factual information and not opinion] designed by world-renowned architects that will make GREAT additions to extend our skyline and add density.

    I am actually very pleased with this development, retail aside (& the loss of Hotel Black *tear*]. I wonder how many people even know of the Lever House in Manhattan? Very lovely and minimalist building that still shines among the thousands of similarly-sized structures in NYC. It makes me appreciate the design of 499 more than I would have without the context. I also will remain optimistic as to the fate of the retail spaces. I am REALLY hoping that we can encourage the developer and the city to at least ensure the retail is done correctly and not some half-assed display boxes like Devon's parking garage. Which if I remember correctly, we were told those spaces would be available for lease at some point in the future. Me thinks we got tricked pretty good in believing that; Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us.

    We should definitely be proactive with the small details, as that is where we have the most chance of impacting this project in a positive way that can benefit the workers, residents, and visitors. I think the retail and parking garages are where we should focus constructive criticism.
    I knew absolutely nothing about the Lever House in Manhattan that you reference. So, I googled it. Very interesting story and information about the building and building of it, especially about the glass and stainless steel curtain. Also, it is on the National Register of Historic Places and is designated as a New York City landmark. It has been copied for skyscrapers in several cities around the world. If our new building is designed with the Lever House as the model, I think it might be much better than many are expecting. I get it about the garages and all, I'm just speaking about the building itself.

  6. #106

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    I like the overall design, but the garage massing is horrid. I hope they go back and make some modifications, and develop a better land use plan for the garages. In the presentations, it stated the west garage could accommodate 1,465 vehicles, and the north garage could accommodate 683, for a total of 2,148 vehicles. I mean do they really need that many spaces? They could eliminate the north garage all together, put a couple levels of the west garage underground, then add a couple on top, and that should accommodate the needs of the building, or vice versa.

  7. #107

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    It wouldn't suck! Panda, I think part of me wants OKC do just be better than OK. It's done so much yet holds itself back by poor decisons far too often. It frustrates me and I want this city to be great. I applaud all the progress and things that have been done over the years, but anyone tell me why a city like Tulsa can have several taller skyscrapers over 500 feet and we slap up a beautiful snow white and all the dwarfs around it? It just doesn't make any sense that we can't get one proposal over 500 feet.
    Because it's not 1984 and office needs have changed.

    If by "several" you mean three, then yes Tulsa has more 500'+ tall buildings in their downtown. OKC has two.

    I guess they can claim that giant gold phallus Oral Roberts built so they have at least four city wide.

  8. #108

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    KayneMo and his idea was read and discussed in the meeting today. They distributed his model on paper to the group. Nice shout out to OKCTalk!

    Just watched the video from the meeting. Here's a quick summary.
    .
    Hey, do you think you can post a link to this?

  9. #109

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Because it's not 1984 and office needs have changed.

    If by "several" you mean three, then yes Tulsa has more 500'+ tall buildings in their downtown. OKC has two.

    I guess they can claim that giant gold phallus Oral Roberts built so they have at least four city wide.
    You really seem to just be a bitter person. Like I said, just scroll on pal. If you really don't think that Tulsa has more of an impressive skyline with taller buildings currently than OKC, I really don't know what to tell you. OKC has a 1 building that is 500 feet besides the Devon. If you really think the Devon Tower would look awkward in that Tulsa skyline, you are nuts. You need a building or 2 that is about 60-70 percent at least to have some contrast. In OKC, the Devon towers over all by a LARGE margin, that is my point. It's just strange looking, and yes, people do notice it. Just quit responding to my posts if they bother you that much.

  10. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    KayneMo and his idea was read and discussed in the meeting today. They distributed his model on paper to the group. Nice shout out to OKCTalk!

    Just watched the video from the meeting. Here's a quick summary.


    John Pickard of Pickard Chilton took them through a big presentation. Nothing he said was new as far as I could tell. Also had a landscape architect talk about the plaza.

    Afterwards, most of the committee made comments, which included:

    • Disappointed there was no attempt to save any buildings.
    • Skybridges are not good urban planning and detracts from streetlife
    • Very concerned that only a parking garage will be located at Walker & Sheridan. Key intersection and Elementary school is right across the street. (several members echoed this point).
    • Depth of retail will not lend itself to many uses.
    • Retail space is only 2% of the total garage space.
    • Over 50% of the entire block will be parking.
    • There are three other adjacent parking garages; Devon garage in particular has similar materials. All this massing is a concern.
    • Why not eliminate north garage and add more levels to west garage? Why not add underground levels. (Pickard semi-addressed this one with a complete non-answer).
    • Clayco is proposing to build the most expensive apartments in town at Walker & Sheridan and will be looking into and on top of a parking garage.
    • Walker needs activity; key street and there is only blank parking in their proposal.


    Pickard thanked everyone for the comments and said they were taking copious notes and their ideas to heart. (Reminder they have already submitted a design application for the next meeting. Could be supplemented / changed.)

    The only citizen to speak was Jane Jenkins who is President of Downtown OKC Inc. She said she was there as a private citizen and her opinions were her own.

    Her concern was the plaza. Said she offices in Leadership Square and never sees anyone using that large plaza, the one at SandRidge or BOK Plaza. Said that this building fronts Myriad Gardens all would be better served if the building would be pulled to corner and that the park be the doorstep rather than another vastly under utilized corporate plaza.

    The committee thanked Pickard and that was that.

    No one from Preservation Oklahoma spoke.
    Let me say, I feel more than a little vindicated with this summary.

  11. #111

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    If you really don't think that Tulsa has more of an impressive skyline with taller buildings currently than OKC, I really don't know what to tell you.
    A matter of pure subjectivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    OKC has a 1 building that is 500 feet besides the Devon. If you really think the Devon Tower would look awkward in that Tulsa skyline, you are nuts. You need a building or 2 that is about 60-70 percent at least to have some contrast. In OKC, the Devon towers over all by a LARGE margin, that is my point. It's just strange looking, and yes, people do notice it. Just quit responding to my posts if they bother you that much.
    I'm all for voicing one's opinion under the proper circumstances. That doesn't provide a blank check to post the same drivel over and over and expect everybody else to "just scroll on." Evened-out skylines are nice to look at, but what does it avail us if the buildings are empty because they built them for looks instead of building for what they think they need? Is GE going to leave because the buildings on the postcard are "strange looking"? The day businesses boycott the city because of its "strange looking" skyline is the day any serious consideration should be given to that topic. (Actually, those businesses should probably have their executive boards wiped clean.)

    Taller doesn't necessarily equate to impressive. At the end of the day, what's going on inside the buildings is much more important than how bloody tall they are. On that note, I'll take the momentum OKC has going right now over whatever's going on up the Turner any day of the week.

  12. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    You really seem to just be a bitter person. Like I said, just scroll on pal. If you really don't think that Tulsa has more of an impressive skyline with taller buildings currently than OKC, I really don't know what to tell you. OKC has a 1 building that is 500 feet besides the Devon. If you really think the Devon Tower would look awkward in that Tulsa skyline, you are nuts. You need a building or 2 that is about 60-70 percent at least to have some contrast. In OKC, the Devon towers over all by a LARGE margin, that is my point. It's just strange looking, and yes, people do notice it. Just quit responding to my posts if they bother you that much.
    Are you 12?
    The truth is never embarrassed by honest inquiry.

  13. #113

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    Scroll on buddy. If you don't like my opinion, if you see my name just keep on scrolling. I think if more people rejected this as I do, it could make a difference. I believe that they have people checking out what the public thinks or at least I'd like to think they'd like to get a feel for what the general opinion is of this. If they see we are all excited about leveling the block for this mid rise, well we will have set our standards that this is what OKC basically is. As great as it is getting 5 towers in the 20-27 story range, I would much, much rather have 3 towers at about 35-45 story range.

    As for the person who said the Devon would look funny in other major cities, I disagree. In fact it wouldn't even look out of place down the turnpike in Tulsa. They have other high rises that are in the 550 to 670 foot range. The Devon would be taller but it would not look awkward in Tulsa like it does in OKC. Can you all really not see how very few high rises OKC actually has? The Cotter Ranch is the second tallest at 500 feet and a few more in the 350 to 450 range. It just looks weird, sorry but it does. I have heard several times how beautiful the Devon is followed by it looks strange because all the other buildings look like midgets. That is the truth, that is what has been said, and this site needs more height and street interaction, not leveled and 2 more parking garages. If this mid rise was somewhere else, no complaints from me. BTW, did anyone see the new residential high rise that was just proposed in Austin? It is supposed to be the tallest one west of the Mississippi. I know we aren't Austin but the standards they have compared to OKC are literally night and day. I can't imagine anyone there being a little jealous of this 27 story project.
    Hey guys, I hate to say this, but maybe soondoc is correct. Maybe Devon does stick out like a sore thumb from certain angles. Maybe real cities don't have one single skyscraper that towers above anything else nearby.



    What do you think guys?

  14. #114

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by hoyasooner View Post
    Hey guys, I hate to say this, but maybe soondoc is correct. Maybe Devon does stick out like a sore thumb from certain angles. Maybe real cities don't have one single skyscraper that towers above anything else nearby.



    What do you think guys?
    How dare you post that uncensored image of an architectural middle finger! My children cried after viewing that picture. I'll be reporting you to the FCC.

  15. #115

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by hoyasooner View Post
    Hey guys, I hate to say this, but maybe soondoc is correct. Maybe Devon does stick out like a sore thumb from certain angles. Maybe real cities don't have one single skyscraper that towers above anything else nearby.



    What do you think guys?
    Dubai


    London


    Hong Kong Skyline


    Taipei, Taiwan


    I also believe San Francisco is about to get a building that is going to dwarf the rest of the skyline

  16. #116

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    What's interesting about that shot of Taipei is that it also includes the second-tallest tower in the city (the one with the lit crown and spire just to the left of Taipei 101). That building, called the Shin Kong Life Tower, is nearly the same height as Devon, while 101 is nearly 1,700 feet tall. No one as far as I know has ever complained about Taipei 101's height.

  17. #117

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by boitoirich View Post
    What's interesting about that shot of Taipei is that it also includes the second-tallest tower in the city (the one with the lit crown and spire just to the left of Taipei 101). That building, called the Shin Kong Life Tower, is nearly the same height as Devon, while 101 is nearly 1,700 feet tall. No one as far as I know has ever complained about Taipei 101's height.
    That's because it didn't happen in OKC.

  18. #118

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Steve's update.

    Oklahoma City Downtown Design Review Committee panel asks developers of planned downtown tower to alter parking garage plans | News OK

    The architect and developer presenting plans for a 27-story office tower were cautioned Thursday they will face difficulty getting project approval from the Downtown Design Review Committee if plans aren’t changed for a garage to be built across from an existing garage and downtown’s new elementary school.
    Committee Chair Betsy Brunstetter spoke first, saying the Hines project is flawed with “missed opportunities.”

    “The big one is that even though you’ve made an attempt to save various portions of the buildings, there has not been a true attempt to save any of the buildings,” Brunstetter said. “The sky bridge is not good for urban planning. I know you have a client and the client has desires. But it’s not good for urban planning; it deactivates the streets.”
    It appears that those who assumed this would just get an easy pass are completely mistaken.

  19. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Steve's update.

    Oklahoma City Downtown Design Review Committee panel asks developers of planned downtown tower to alter parking garage plans | News OK



    It appears that those who assumed this would just get an easy pass are completely mistaken.
    happily mistaken, I hope

  20. #120

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Yeah, and I'll say, if this project was canceled in its current state, I would not be mad.

  21. #121

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    As the bare minimum I think the retail spaces in the garages need to be redesigned so they are viable for a variety of businesses. I'm thinking convenience stores, coffee shops, restaurants like Subway, maybe a pub someday, and retail sales businesses. They may even be able to basically recreate the Carpenter facade on the retail level of the north garage. The retail space in the tower may have the same challenges for the same reason if they hope to attract a larger business but I am no expert.

    I understand the unhappiness about losing Hotel Black and Auto Hotel but I think that ship may have sailed. I also wonder how big a fight the skybridges will be but hope the city will make a stand. The building itself really isn't bad at all in my opinion; but the overall plan needs some adjustments to be a win - win - win for the city, developer, and future tenants.

  22. #122

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Per Steve's article, who is this Chuck Ainsworth fellow who "argued in favor of the demolition, saying the targeted buildings 'are functionally obsolete.'"

    Weren't these buildings being fully used before tenants were kicked out? How are they "functionally obsolete?"

  23. #123

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    "Functionally obsolete" is just an arbitrary term. Some people think vinyl records are "Functionally obsolete". I think they have a richer sound. I think CD's are "Functionally obsolete" because there are better ways to store digital music at the same quality level. I can express my opinions using this term, but it doesn't carry any weight on the absolute truth. So if a person tells you that a substantial structure is "Functionally obsolete" it most likely is just a personal judgement call, and is not an absolute fact.

  24. #124

    Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    OMG! I can't believe I called it the Clayco project in the email, I don't know what I was thinking, and I didn't think she was going to read it aloud in the meeting. Lol. I hope the architects truly take it to heart though.

  25. Default Re: 499 Sheridan

    Chuck Ainsworth is a longtime real estate broker and developer in OKC, who has been involved in - among other places - Automobile Alley and Bricktown. Notably he was a partner in and oversaw renovations of the Kingman Building (Bourbon Street) and the Oklahoma Hardware Building (now ACM@UCO) along with his then-brother-in-law French Hickman. I believe he was also was instrumental in putting Standley Systems together with the Sherman Ironworks Building (Andy Burnett and Zach Martin's deal though). He's no stranger to old buildings, and for better or worse his opinion carries weight in this discussion.

    I do agree that it is arbitrary. As an example, the Skirvin was functionally obsolete as a hotel. However, it was heavily reconfigured to modern room size standards during renovation. The Braniff Building was functionally obsolete as an office building. We've all seen how THAT turned out. In most cases, functional obsolescence just means you really need to WANT to renovate a building. It would require actual hard work and investment.

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