BOK Park Plaza

[UnFrSaKn]

After how thoroughly they got smacked down over their objections to the Sandridge demolitions, I'm not surprised they're keeping their heads down when Devon itself is the company looking to take down a few buildings.

Preservation Group Fighting SandRidge Renovation Plans to Demolish Buildings - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[Pete]

I just spoke with the Executive Director of Preservation Oklahoma.

They are planning a vigorous defense of the entire block. I'll post more later.

[hfry]

That is good to hear. Hopefully them not speaking at the meeting was them forming their defense and not giving away to much of their hand to soon. I'm glad you reached out to them Pete.

[s00nr1]

I just spoke with the Executive Director of Preservation Oklahoma.

They are planning a vigorous defense of the entire block. I'll post more later.

In the least it will provide another viewpoint of the ways this block could be better developed to integrate current structures.

[Pete]

That is good to hear. Hopefully them not speaking at the meeting was them forming their defense and not giving away to much of their hand to soon. I'm glad you reached out to them Pete.

Like everyone else, they only knew about the meeting and their general plans a few days before.

Also, at the time of that meeting, Hines had yet to formally submit their application.


I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they chose to do this over the holidays and thus minimize the amount of time and exposure around the demolitions. This goes to a vote on Jan. 15.

Very different than the SandRidge and Stage Center situations where there were months of lead time.

[dankrutka]

On a lot of projects that I don't like I usually come around to some degree later. The longer I see the proposal for this project the worse I think it is. There really is no reason that ALL the buildings on this block need to be demolished and the parking garage craters are ridiculous. Every city in the U.S. has security concerns, but they still place parking garages in the lower floor of their towers. That's what needs to happen here. Otherwise OKC will just continue the mistakes it's always made and it should be known as the city with no history.

[BDP]

it should be known as the city with no history.

There'll still be some history, it'll just look like city was founded in 1989 instead of 1889.

[Jeepnokc]

There'll still be some history, it'll just look like city was founded in 1989 instead of 1889.

Like the comment....dislike the thought

[Fly on the Wall]

I just spoke with the Executive Director of Preservation Oklahoma.

They are planning a vigorous defense of the entire block. I'll post more later.

Planning a vigorous defense? A vigorous defense of what exactly? Properties that they do not have any financial investment in? With the same logic applied that because a thing is old, it shouldn't necessarily be discarded; the fact being that because these buildings are old they shouldn't necessarily be preserved. Because they are old they automatically have some special historical significance? And if they have some sort of historical significance they should be preserved? Tee-pees and sod houses have historical significance to Oklahoma but we didn't keep them everywhere. The buildings on this block along Main, east of the 420 Main street are an early 20th century example of a strip mall. They have been mostly vacant and crumbling for years. Twice while walking through the alley to get to the parking garage at Sheridan I have seen bricks falling into the alley floor. They fall off all the time either from the Motor Hotel or the backside of the buildings on main. They're public safety hazards. The Motor Hotel and the 1 North Hudson buildings are brick boxes; about as architecturally significant and interesting as the glass boxes I see some individuals complain about every time some developer proposes a new building.

It seems like the historical preservation movement is more interested in getting a "win" than pragmatically focusing their efforts. I get the frustration....there have been some good battles fought and lost apparently through the years in OKC. But the standard for blocking the development of private property in the cause of historical preservation should be very, very high. The Stage Center building, might have just met the minimum threshold for such a standard. Little on this block, in my opinion, comes close to meeting that standard. And I have yet to hear a substantive argument otherwise outside the fact the buildings are old, relative to the age of Oklahoma City.

I'm not originally from Oklahoma, but I have read much about the history and am sympathetic to some of the things that have been lost. But it seems to me as an outsider, that unless you pick your battles in this regard wisely, you lose credibility. It is kind of like the groups wanting to have a national public discussion about Law Enforcement use of force issues, and focusing their efforts on cases that were probably not the best ones focus on. Ferguson versus Albuquerque for example.

Anyway, just one opinion, not a popular one here I know. But I really do like OKCTALK, honest!

[BoulderSooner]

The cox will be almost 50 years old when the time for demo comes. Maybe we should save it?

This fight is already over. The votes are there for demo

[David]

Hey, well color me surprised. I wonder how long before POK is hit with the same funding threats as last time.

[BDP]

The cox will be almost 50 years old when the time for demo comes. Maybe we should save it?

This fight is already over. The votes are there for demo

I'd fight to save it if they wanted to replace it with parking garages. But since it's OKC, it's probably still there mainly because of its parking garage.

But don't worry, it's over 20 years old in a disposable city, so it won't have any issues.

[Just the facts]

Hey, well color me surprised. I wonder how long before POK is hit with the same funding threats as last time.

No doubt that the OKC Plutocrats will turn to North Korea style tactics the way they did with Sandridge. I wonder if Devon will also threaten to move out of OKC.

[hoya]

Planning a vigorous defense? A vigorous defense of what exactly? Properties that they do not have any financial investment in? With the same logic applied that because a thing is old, it shouldn't necessarily be discarded; the fact being that because these buildings are old they shouldn't necessarily be preserved. Because they are old they automatically have some special historical significance? And if they have some sort of historical significance they should be preserved? Tee-pees and sod houses have historical significance to Oklahoma but we didn't keep them everywhere. The buildings on this block along Main, east of the 420 Main street are an early 20th century example of a strip mall. They have been mostly vacant and crumbling for years. Twice while walking through the alley to get to the parking garage at Sheridan I have seen bricks falling into the alley floor. They fall off all the time either from the Motor Hotel or the backside of the buildings on main. They're public safety hazards. The Motor Hotel and the 1 North Hudson buildings are brick boxes; about as architecturally significant and interesting as the glass boxes I see some individuals complain about every time some developer proposes a new building.

It seems like the historical preservation movement is more interested in getting a "win" than pragmatically focusing their efforts. I get the frustration....there have been some good battles fought and lost apparently through the years in OKC. But the standard for blocking the development of private property in the cause of historical preservation should be very, very high. The Stage Center building, might have just met the minimum threshold for such a standard. Little on this block, in my opinion, comes close to meeting that standard. And I have yet to hear a substantive argument otherwise outside the fact the buildings are old, relative to the age of Oklahoma City.

I'm not originally from Oklahoma, but I have read much about the history and am sympathetic to some of the things that have been lost. But it seems to me as an outsider, that unless you pick your battles in this regard wisely, you lose credibility. It is kind of like the groups wanting to have a national public discussion about Law Enforcement use of force issues, and focusing their efforts on cases that were probably not the best ones focus on. Ferguson versus Albuquerque for example.

Anyway, just one opinion, not a popular one here I know. But I really do like OKCTALK, honest!

It's not a popular opinion because it's dumb.

[Stickman]

I'd fight to save it if they wanted to replace it with parking garages. But since it's OKC, it's probably still there mainly because of its parking garage.

But don't worry, it's over 20 years old in a disposable city, so it won't have any issues.

So where do they plan to put parking for the four proposed buildings south of the 499 building? Don't tell me underground.

[Plutonic Panda]

So where do they plan to put parking for the four proposed buildings south of the 499 building? Don't tell me underground.

Sid just posted great examples on how to deal with the parking issue.

[BDP]

But it seems to me as an outsider, that unless you pick your battles in this regard wisely, you lose credibility.

I think at this point, the battles have been picked for them. There's relatively not much left of Oklahoma City's past in downtown. So, they kind of have to fight for the last few historic buildings or lose relevancy.

There's a great three volume set (yes three) that is comprised of pictures and postcards of buildings Oklahoma City has torn down called The Vanished Splendor. Oklahoma City had a great downtown for decades and there's little of it remaining today. This block, especially the Bus Station contains some elements that are especially rare.

It's funny to say pick your battles, because if 15 years ago I were to have picked 3 things in the core that are worth saving as significant architectural representations of Oklahoma City's past, all three of them will be torn down when this project us finished.

[BDP]

So where do they plan to put parking for the four proposed buildings south of the 499 building? Don't tell me underground.

Nope. It will dominate the block(s) too. But they seemed to have made an effort to mitigate the negative effect at least along walked and to the north and the south. The east side may be a blank block though.

[Stickman]

Wonder what group is buying the land just to west of Walker at the 500 block, Will this be for future parking? Not trying to get off topic but wondering if 499 is going to lease some of their parking to the Clayco group?

[OKCRT]

Maybe they should just let the hole block sit like it is for another 5-10 years. Then people would be begging for them to build what they have proposed.

[Fly on the Wall]

I think at this point, the battles have been picked for them. There's relatively not much left of Oklahoma City's past in downtown. So, they kind of have to fight for the last few historic buildings or lose relevancy.

There's a great three volume set (yes three) that is comprised of pictures and postcards of buildings Oklahoma City has torn down called The Vanished Splendor. Oklahoma City had a great downtown for decades and there's little of it remaining today. This block, especially the Bus Station contains some elements that are especially rare.

It's funny to say pick your battles, because if 15 years ago I were to have picked 3 things in the core that are worth saving as significant architectural representations of Oklahoma City's past, all three of them will be torn down when this project us finished.

Well, I guess outside the Union Bus Station, I am not seeing it. I have read some things about the Hotel Black and the American Motor Hotel that had some unique architectural ornamentation with in the structures. I did a quick search on the The Vanished Splendor, and at 107 to 176 dollars on Amazon, I think I'll check out the library. I'd love to see the Union Bus Station reinvented as a diner or some other use and integrated into a new development. The rest of the block; I'm not seeing it. Again, I have read about and seen the buildings that have been lost and get the significance of those losses. I think your point about there not relatively be much left does hits home, but again buildings like those on Main east of 420 West Main are not comparable.

I'm just spit-balling here, but I think for private development to be blocked in the name of preservation of an existing structure, the reasons and standards need to be substantial. The building preserved should:

1. Not present a public safety hazard, and,
2. Be economically viable for occupancy, and,
3. Possess a unique, not represented elsewhere, historical significance to the local community, or,
4. Possess a unique, not represented elsewhere, architectural significance to the local community.

I'm sure the standards are well defined somewhere, and when I get more time, perhaps I do better research on what those standards may be. But, this dialog is mostly opinion based it seems, and that is where I am looking at this topic at the moment.

[hfry]

For some, or me at least, I am more than okay with demolition for a better or higher use and if they were proposing this tower on just the carpenter square area or heck even on the hotel black corner but it had parking built into it base then it would be a whole different story. Yet, how can anyone say this is what we want our downtown to turn into. Parking garages taking up almost half of every block doesn't promote growth or a fun walkable environment. For me, its more that Hines and Pickard are willing to say the block has to be this way because those building don't fit into their plans and that should settle any debate. Especially when there are projects all around the country that prove this to be false. Every block needs to have a purpose and in 5 years who wants to look at this block and conclude that its purpose was large parking garages.
Also, when Preftake is quoted as " I won't raze the buss station" you kinda expect there to be at least some more original plans than a large parking garage with some blue "deco" tiles on it honoring the structure. I keep waiting for Steve to have a comment from him on his current involvement in the block but it seems he and Rainey Williams are holed up in Vast or somewhere plotting their next blocks to monopolize.

[dankrutka]

Besides all the buildings being functional (even if needing upgrades, which is nothing surprising for older buildings), particular to historical periods that are barely present in OKC, and the new design being a terrible use of space due to the angle and parking garages, there's also a case to be made that "Older and smaller buildings and a wide range in building age offer real economic and social benefits for neighborhoods and urban centers...": Jane Jacobs was right | Better! Cities & Towns Online

[Bullbear]

For some, or me at least, I am more than okay with demolition for a better or higher use and if they were proposing this tower on just the carpenter square area or heck even on the hotel black corner but it had parking built into it base then it would be a whole different story. Yet, how can anyone say this is what we want our downtown to turn into. Parking garages taking up almost half of every block doesn't promote growth or a fun walkable environment. For me, its more that Hines and Pickard are willing to say the block has to be this way because those building don't fit into their plans and that should settle any debate. Especially when there are projects all around the country that prove this to be false. Every block needs to have a purpose and in 5 years who wants to look at this block and conclude that its purpose was large parking garages.
Also, when Preftake is quoted as " I won't raze the buss station" you kinda expect there to be at least some more original plans than a large parking garage with some blue "deco" tiles on it honoring the structure. I keep waiting for Steve to have a comment from him on his current involvement in the block but it seems he and Rainey Williams are holed up in Vast or somewhere plotting their next blocks to monopolize.

Agreed. I wouldn't be as upset about what we are losing if we were gaining something worthy of the demolition. the actual building footprint is small and could easily fit without losing all those structures. however parking garages with 20ft deep "retail" spaces is what we are getting. I don't think you would hear nearly as much chatter on this if we indeed were getting a better building with integrated parking and not a block of garages.

[hfry]

^^ Exactly. Especially on a street the streetcar is going to go in front of. It is already going to be fighting an uphill battle in a very car centric city. Yet, when you realize who is truly behind this project Devon; Larry Nicholos) it is no wonder the Myriad garden is the focal point and planning for an 100 million investment is on the back burner.