Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

[Swake]

Didn’t Tulsa oppose the excursion train coming to Tulsa about 10 years ago. I think it was a WATCO test run, but it seems like Tulsa always opposes things and then cries when they get left out.

First of all, condescending. Also, this is just simply not true.

Tulsa needs to get out front on issues like this. Get money together and say, “Oklahoma City, here’s $50 million. You chip in $50 million and let’s get a federal match and leave the state out of it.” That’s leadership. Expressing disappointment because they got left out of a proposal that never included Tulsa in the first place is just silly. Tulsa politicians can lean on ODOT just like Oklahoma City can. Their leaders actually have to step up to the plate and take a swing, instead of hoping Oklahoma City will do all the political heavy lifting for them. They are the second most populated city in the state, they have influence if they would even attempt to use it.

More condescension. And, um, the original proposal for the Heartland Flyer most certainly DID include Tulsa. The state never followed through with phase II (Tulsa). In fact, providing service to Tulsa as part of the Heartland Flyer is written into state law. Tulsa legislators did help OKC area lawmakers pass the Heartland Flyer with the understanding that OKC would support phase II to Tulsa. But once service started to Oklahoma City, support from the Oklahoma City area evaporated. Ever since the state has promised to extend service over and over and always failed.

Interesting idea about funding though. But a question, did Oklahoma City have to pony up city funds for the Heartland Flyer? No? I only ask because people in Tulsa certainly pay state taxes that ODOT uses to fund the Heartland Flyer today and have for the last 20 years.

Regardless, Tulsa has allocated money for rail. The Vision Tulsa vote in 2016 actually allocated funds for two BRT lines and a downtown rail transit hub to connect all of them to Amtrak service. The first BRT line has been running for a couple of years, the second starts service next summer. There's nothing on progress on the rail hub because the state has done nothing. It seems even with provided funding ODOT just doesn't care.

Personally, I agree politicians from Tulsa should step up. Step up and vote against any and all funding for the Heartland Flyer until the state steps up and takes connecting Tulsa seriously. ODOT only notices when you threaten their money.

[catch22]

Boise City also pays taxes that go to the Heartland Flyer. I am discussing the proposal that Kansas and Amtrak seem to be leading on which extends the Flyer to Newton, it seems to me that those two entities are leading the way and OKC and ODOT are just along for the ride.

Where is that same type of leadership out of Tulsa? It’s looking like it is getting extended because of Kansas and Amtrak leading the way, not ODOT. This proves that if Tulsa gets a proposal together with political and financial backing, ODOT and OKC will help.

[Mott]

First of all, condescending. Also, this is just simply not true.



More condescension. And, um, the original proposal for the Heartland Flyer most certainly DID include Tulsa. The state never followed through with phase II (Tulsa). In fact, providing service to Tulsa as part of the Heartland Flyer is written into state law. Tulsa legislators did help OKC area lawmakers pass the Heartland Flyer with the understanding that OKC would support phase II to Tulsa. But once service started to Oklahoma City, support from the Oklahoma City area evaporated. Ever since the state has promised to extend service over and over and always failed.

Interesting idea about funding though. But a question, did Oklahoma City have to pony up city funds for the Heartland Flyer? No? I only ask because people in Tulsa certainly pay state taxes that ODOT uses to fund the Heartland Flyer today and have for the last 20 years.

Regardless, Tulsa has allocated money for rail. The Vision Tulsa vote in 2016 actually allocated funds for two BRT lines and a downtown rail transit hub to connect all of them to Amtrak service. The first BRT line has been running for a couple of years, the second starts service next summer. There's nothing on progress on the rail hub because the state has done nothing. It seems even with provided funding ODOT just doesn't care.

Personally, I agree politicians from Tulsa should step up. Step up and vote against any and all funding for the Heartland Flyer until the state steps up and takes connecting Tulsa seriously. ODOT only notices when you threaten their money.

And as I have talked about in the past, it’s a horrible track infrastructure. The whole line is running at 20 mph with 19 (or more) 10 mph slow orders. The line has the most grade crossings of any RR in Oklahoma because of its angle NE. And there is no signal system (Amtrak can only run to 49 without signal protection). Partner with the SNCF to build and operate TVG’s, on a new right of way, from Harter yard downtown Tulsa, 1 hour and 15-20 minutes.

[Swake]

Boise City also pays taxes that go to the Heartland Flyer. I am discussing the proposal that Kansas and Amtrak seem to be leading on which extends the Flyer to Newton, it seems to me that those two entities are leading the way and OKC and ODOT are just along for the ride.

Where is that same type of leadership out of Tulsa? It’s looking like it is getting extended because of Kansas and Amtrak leading the way, not ODOT. This proves that if Tulsa gets a proposal together with political and financial backing, ODOT and OKC will help.

That is fracking hilarious you believe that. Here is actual history:

4/20/93 – State bill authored by Broken Arrow Sen Kevin Easley passed intends to bring rail service back to Oklahoma
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/senat...f443a9417.html

11/9/94 – Amtrack and ODOT study rail lines between Ft Worth, OKC and Tulsa to look to restoring service to Oklahoma
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/passe...2a6c0a04f.html

2/13/98 – State buys Frisco rail line between Oklahoma City and Sapulpa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/state...488157946.html

6/12/98 – Sen Don Nickles gets $23 million in federal funding for Amtrack service in Oklahoma, service could start in the spring of ’99, four routes are being considered, Ft Worth to OKC to Tulsa, OKC to Newton, KS, Tulsa to Kansas City, Tulsa to St Louis. Tulsa is promised to be included due to a state law passed in 1993 that requires any service with a state subsidy include Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/train...f40169df0.html

10/22/98 – Kansas and Oklahoma lawmakers form an alliance to promote rail, Texas expected to Join. State that phase one of the service will be to connect Ft Worth and Oklahoma City, phase two of the service will connect Tulsa and Kansas City, phase three OKC to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/allia...590ff69a7.html

4/15/99 – ODOT and Amtrack announce service to Oklahoma City will start 6/15. ODOT head Neil McCaleb says phase 2 will be to link to Tulsa, but no date is set at this time
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/next-...83d5932d9.html

4/25/99 – Tulsa World editorial. Praises start of planned Amtrack service to OKC in June, predicts that phase II connecting Tulsa will never happen
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/david...8bdb0b327.html

6/15/99 – Heartland Flyer debuts! Governor say people need to use the train if we want to keep it and extend it to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/soone...d07d2febb.html

7/11/99 – Yeah, about extending service to Tulsa, it’s going to be hard. Tulsa leaders push ODOT for rail service to Kansas City or St Louis if OKC is not doable
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/derai...9d6a36839.html

1/19/00 -Heartland Flyer doing very well, BUT, I know we said we would do phase 2 to Tulsa if the train did well, but now we think that extending to Tulsa is REALLY expensive
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtra...f8537b865.html

2/25/00 – Rail service from OKC to Newton, KS is recommended, Tulsa remains “a goal”
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/link-...46f2e7925.html

3/28/00 – One cent sales tax proposed to extend rail service from OKC to Newton Kansas and HSR to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/passe...1eaa3b15a.html

2/24/01 – ODOT proposes extending the Heartland Flyer, not to Tulsa, but to Newton, KS
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtra...a8b360824.html

5/10/01 – City of Tulsa releases study showing the cost effectiveness of a Tulsa to Kansas City line. Sen Dave Herbert criticizes Tulsa area legislators who had not backed his one cent gas tax for rail. Study author notes Tulsa had little reason to back the tax after not getting the promised Heartland Flyer phase 2 as required by state law. If this line to Kansas City could be completed, Tulsa area reps could be on board for the tax.
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/outlo...85dab44a1.html

9/15/01 – The Heartland Flyer sees an expected decrease in riders, ODOT still looking at a phase 2, probably to Newton, KS, or maybe to Tulsa. No mention of Tulsa to Kansas City as an option
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/heart...9269754f8.html

10/24/01 – State Transportation Sec Hershal Crow does not support a Tulsa to Kansas City route. Says it would hurt the Heartland Flyer and isn’t the preferred route by Amtrack, they prefer Newton, KS because of “options”.
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/rail-...7ad9fd8e6.html

7/29/03 - Oklahoma City’s congressman at the time, who was the chairman of a key transportation subcommittee kills the idea of federal funding for high speed rail to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/istoo...e09adbf7f.html

8/25/06 – Tulsa’s city council again requests rail service
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa...3910d30df.html

12/13/06 Study requested by the city of Tulsa shows that Tulsa to Springfield would required upgrades of $19 million in Oklahoma and $19 million in Missouri vs the $152 million for normal speed track between Tulsa and OKC and $850 million for HSR
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa...4b8c6c1e4.html

12/12/06 – Tulsa asks for rail service to Springfield, MO, Amtrak and state officials are against that as it as the Tulsa to OKC plan would instead do more to help the Heartland Flyer. Which is pointless as no money is being spent to fix that option
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa...a7e858710.html

1/18/07 - City of Tulsa pushes for federal matching funds to extend the Heartland Flyer to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/feder...eb1a02a23.html

1/25/07 – City of Broken Arrow pushes study to extend rail service to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/ba-la...da8630002.html

4/16/07 – Another bill to study (again) Amtrack service to Tulsa is passed and signed into law
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtra...a85f19d9c.html

6/22/08 – The state again is pushing Newton, KS. The City of Tulsa is angry about $200,00 being spent on another rail study to extend service to Newton, KS instead of Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/will-...1736db6c5.html

10/18/13 - State of Oklahoma under Mary Fallin sells the "WATCO" line connecting OKC and Sapulpa
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/po...6dda8d015.html

Tulsa lawmakers should never, ever vote for funding for the Heartland Flyer until ODOT changes and should fight every attempt to extend service to Newton, KS.

[Plutonic Panda]

Tulsa comes off as a whiny pouty child then by those posts especially the recent one about them not understanding the importance of extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton. That’s more beneficial than an OKC-Tulsa train, IMO. Any train to Tulsa needs to be planned with an extension to STL to truly make it worthwhile.

Meanwhile this might even enable The alone Star line to be revived as well offering a one seat ride from Houston and Chicago through OKC and vice versa.

ODOT also built the new I-244 bridge with a rail component and didn’t care much to do that for OKC when they rebuilt the I-235/I-44 interchange.

I’d side with Catch 22 based on what you posted because it doesn’t seem like they’ve much the last decade which they should be doing more now than ever given recent funding from the feds.

[Swake]

Tulsa comes off as a whiny pouty child then by those posts especially the recent one about them not understanding the importance of extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton. That’s more beneficial than an OKC-Tulsa train, IMO. Any train to Tulsa needs to be planned with an extension to STL to truly make it worthwhile.

Meanwhile this might even enable The alone Star line to be revived as well offering a one seat ride from Houston and Chicago through OKC and vice versa.

ODOT also built the new I-244 bridge with a rail component and didn’t care much to do that for OKC when they rebuilt the I-235/I-44 interchange.

I’d side with Catch 22 based on what you posted because it doesn’t seem like they’ve much the last decade which they should be doing more now than ever given recent funding from the feds.

ODOT is in violation of state law. That has to be cured before any expansion of service, which would only worsen the violation.

[BoulderSooner]

ODOT is in violation of state law. That has to be cured before any expansion of service, which would only worsen the violation.

what is the violation??

[Swake]

what is the violation??

As I noted:

6/12/98 – Sen Don Nickles gets $23 million in federal funding for Amtrack service in Oklahoma, service could start in the spring of ’99, four routes are being considered, Ft Worth to OKC to Tulsa, OKC to Newton, KS, Tulsa to Kansas City, Tulsa to St Louis. Tulsa is promised to be included due to a state law passed in 1993 that requires any service with a state subsidy to include Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/train...f40169df0.html

[BoulderSooner]

As I noted:

do you know what state law that is ?

[Just the facts]

do you know what state law that is ?

https://www.krmg.com/news/local/krmg...PPQIGPL5CDJXI/

[BoulderSooner]

https://www.krmg.com/news/local/krmg...PPQIGPL5CDJXI/

so where is the violation ??

i don't see one .. in that text at all . .

[Just the facts]

so where is the violation ??

i don't see one .. in that text at all . .

From the article:

Evan Stair, President of Passenger Rail Oklahoma, a non-profit advocacy group, pointed us to Oklahoma Statutes Title 66, sections 321 through 325

“The Oklahoma Department of Transportation, and the legislature, and Governor Stitt, have all forgotten about the requirements to provide service to Tulsa within state statute,” Stair told KRMG Monday.

The law includes a section titled “Purpose,” which states: “The purpose of the Oklahoma Tourism and Passenger Rail Act shall be to do all things necessary to restore passenger rail service to the state, to enhance the state’s position as a tourist destination site and to improve the quality of life for residents of this state by offering an alternative mode of intrastate and interstate travel.”

In the section titled “Definitions,” it spells out the requirement to include Tulsa County as well as Oklahoma County in a passenger rail system.

It reads: “Passenger rail service” shall mean interstate or intrastate passenger rail service, including but not limited to a route linking stations in Oklahoma and Tulsa Counties with other primary points in the national railroad passenger system.

But that law has never been enforced, and this week plans were announced to try and expand the “Heartland Flyer” line, which runs from Ft. Worth, Texas to Oklahoma City, north to Newton, Kansas.

The article also links to the State statute itself.

https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/2022/title-66/

[Plutonic Panda]

You really want that rail line to be revived? Wasn’t the proposed travel times something like 2+ hours? There isn’t anything that said ODOT had to build a new alignment rail line which is what should be done. Why the f@ck would you want some horribly slow rail line built just for the sake of it being rail? Interim bus service would be much better until HSR can be worked out.

[chssooner]

How can this state law force Amtrak to build an expansion to KC from Tulsa? If they, a private company, don't want to, it seems inconceivable to force them to. Seems one that won't hold up in court, if they go against it.

[catch22]

Again, where are Tulsa’s politicians? Of course Oklahoma City and ODOT are going to ride the easy wave of the path of least resistance… Kansas and Amtrak have been working overtime the past couple of years once it was made apparent that the Biden admin was going to invest in passenger rail. They stepped up and started moving the ball down the field. Why would ODOT and OKC turn them away?

I guarantee you if Tulsa shows up with money in hand and political backing, Holt will find the money and will also go get political backing to make this happen. So far Tulsa has only shown up to express their disappointment. Kansas has shown up with money and effort. You can only argue at the referee for so long, but at the end of the day you have to drive to the basket. Why haven’t Tulsa’s politicians gotten this done while they have the most pro-Tulsa Governor in recent history? With a single tweet and stroke of the pen Stitt could have entire offices at ODOT, OTA, and the Attorneys office making this happen. No Tulsa politician has his ear? This is OKC’s fault?

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ exactly but the currently proposed route is a goddamn joke.

[bombermwc]

Insert my downer vibe as usual....

Rail in Oklahoma, well no matter what form it takes, it's going to always struggle. Unless or until the state/feds/Amtrack an agree to link a path all the way from Dallas, to Kansas City (including Tulsa) then we're going to be sitting exactly where we are now, which is a joke. And those lines are going to have to run a real path, not stopping at 50 little dots on the map on the way making it an incredibly inefficient trip.

And those destinations on each end, unless you have a hub there that can connect you to somewhere else, then you're limiting who is going to make use of it. Chicken/Egg for sure.

Also a "promise" in a government document means buttkiss. Ask the tribes of Oklahoma what they were promised.

[Just the facts]

How can this state law force Amtrak to build an expansion to KC from Tulsa? If they, a private company, don't want to, it seems inconceivable to force them to. Seems one that won't hold up in court, if they go against it.

It doesn't require Amtrak. All it says is that the State connect Tulsa and OKC to the national rail network. If the State needs to build its own rail line to Tulsa ( see New Mexico Railrunner) then so be it - that is the law. When the rail line to Sapulpa was sold it had a requirement that the buyer implement passenger service on the line within so many years. I don't remember exactly what that time requirement was, but it has long passed.

Alas, Tulsa doesn't have rail because J.T Bynum doesn't want it. He has said many times that they are all-in on autonomous cars and rail is obsolete.

[BG918]

It doesn't require Amtrak. All it says is that the State connect Tulsa and OKC to the national rail network. If the State needs to build its own rail line to Tulsa ( see New Mexico Railrunner) then so be it - that is the law. When the rail line to Sapulpa was sold it had a requirement that the buyer implement passenger service on the line within so many years. I don't remember exactly what that time requirement was, but it has long passed.

Alas, Tulsa doesn't have rail because J.T Bynum doesn't want it. He has said many times that they are all-in on autonomous cars and rail is obsolete.

I agree with Bynum that the current state of rail is obsolete. Very few people are going to take a 3 hour train between OKC and Tulsa. Now HSR is another story but that isn’t even being discussed.

[Just the facts]

I agree with Bynum that the current state of rail is obsolete. Very few people are going to take a 3 hour train between OKC and Tulsa. Now HSR is another story but that isn’t even being discussed.

It isn't being discussed because Tulsa isn't discussing it. OKC is already connected to the national rail network and has daily service to one of the largest metros in the US. OKC also has a streetcar to move people around who arrive without a car. Tulsa has neither of those things, and doesn't seem interested in getting them. If a train did go from OKC to Tulsa at 120 mph how would someone get around Tulsa when they got there? A car?

I'll bet Lawton would be much more interested in a rail connection to WRWA and downtown OKC. When I was stationed at Ft Sill my entire unit would have killed for easy access to OKC.

[Jake]

Tulsa would be better served expanding their already existing “BRT” system than building a mediocre at best streetcar for themselves.

[Just the facts]

Tulsa would be better served expanding their already existing “BRT” system than building a mediocre at best streetcar for themselves.

Again, J.T. Bynum wants autonomous cars. Tulsa has to wait for that idea to die first before anything else is entertained.

[Jake]

Again, J.T. Bynum wants autonomous cars. Tulsa has to wait for that idea to die first before anything else is entertained.

Then why are they currently expanding their BRT service?

[shavethewhales]

J.T. Bynum isn't running for re-election. He has a year-ish left. I doubt whoever comes next will be any more excited about trains, especially knowing the massive price tag that would be necessary to start basic service to OKC. We would be better off investing in our airport, bus service, or any number of other items before tackling that monster. I love trains and regional connectors, but the reality is that the price is just too high for Tulsa right now.

[Swake]

You are all missing the alternative that Tulsa has proposed over and over that is cost effective. If the state won't spend the money to fix the line between OKC and Tulsa then connect Tulsa to Kansas City, KS or Springfield, MO/St. Louis instead of Oklahoma City.

ODOT has refused connecting Tulsa to somewhere other than Oklahoma City because they claim to think that might impact the Heartland Flyer. They have chosen to work to spend money to benefit service from OKC only Instead of following the law.