Moore cops abuse......

[Plutonic Panda]

And PluPan, whatever your issues with leos in general, wishing these officers dead,

Now Kevin, don't put words in my mouth. I said the police who were responsible for the murder of the guy in front of the Warren theatre should be charged with 1 st degree murder and charged as such. If it were and I found them guilty, they would be put to death like any other person. I am wishing death on anyone, I am simply removing people from society that are a threat.

[ljbab728]

Plupan, last sentence in post number 162?

[BBatesokc]

Cops can get away with force in just about any circumstance. What about them confiscating the phone and deleting the video; is my memory failing me or did that happen? If that were you or me wouldn't we be charged for obstruction of justice / destroying evidence?

The video was never deleted. The phone was taken as material evidence and held in police custody until they could secure a warrant.

The only thing I don't like about that policy is that - for me personally - Is that they say they are doing it to secure the evidence and make sure it is not lost, stolen or tampered with. The problem is, I've never seen it exercised unless or until its involves allegations against a police officer. I've literally taped hundreds and hundreds of crimes; prostitution, drug dealing, pimping, assault and battery, armed robbery, burglary, and even two forcible kidnappings, etc. NEVER is my video taken from me at the scene unless it involves possible wrongdoing by the police. This has happened four times in 17 years.... Once was the Donald Pete arrest, another time was when a cop was accused of sexually assaulting a woman while placing her under arrest. The third was when I taped officers forcefully removing three Hispanics from a vehicle involved in a hit and run. The fourth time was when I caught a very popular recently retired police officer (don't recall his rank) with a prostitute. The first time was the Donald Pete case and my refusal got me arrested at the scene. I learned from that and now I simply act compliant and then quickly leave during the commotion and make a copy of the video and turn a copy over to police the same or next day.

Urbanized, the "combative" nature of the deceased was related to his refusal to provide ID, no?

Actually, it was related to the domestic disturbance that was going on. Nothing in the man's history shows he would have refused to show ID had police asked for it under any other circumstance.

As for refusing to show ID - that's a poor choice the now deceased made. Like it or not, police have every right to ask to see your ID when they show up to a likely crime scene. If you're going to fight (literally or figuratively) the law, you'd best actually know the law first.

Some people try to turn this into some situation where gov't officers were marching around demanding to 'see people's papers' and doing so without cause. That is simply ignorance and blind bias as there is absolutely not a sure of evidence that occurred. I personally met one of the main officers involved and he struck me as the complete opposite of the stereotypical bully cop.

[soonervegas]

So does failing to show ID now rise to the level of "an aggressive stance"? If so, wow. I find it interesting that they don't release video of the interaction that led to the take down - I am sure at this point the general public would not define it as "aggressive" in nature.

So someone who was not a participant in a crime is now required to show ID or else?

For the record - I don't think these cops are evil, just incompetent.

[Jim Kyle]

After viewing the newly released video a couple of times last night, I have just one question:

If the situation were reversed and five civilians were pummelling one officer who was already down, using knee blows, would the civilians also be found innocent of all wrongdoing?

Even 50 years ago when I covered the cop shop for the Oklahoman, some folk were more equal than others, and it was common for people to fall upstairs in the back of a black-and-white...

[BBatesokc]

After viewing the newly released video a couple of times last night, I have just one question:

If the situation were reversed and five civilians were pummelling one officer who was already down, using knee blows, would the civilians also be found innocent of all wrongdoing?

Even 50 years ago when I covered the cop shop for the Oklahoman, some folk were more equal than others, and it was common for people to fall upstairs in the back of a black-and-white...

That question doesn't really make any sense. You and I as civilians often have more rights than police in some situations, but in a case like this we have less (and rightly so). You don't have the right to detain someone who you didn't witness committing a crime, you also don't have the right to place someone in investigative detention. Furthermore, you don't have the right to demand someone show you their ID (in this situation). So, you also don't have a right to physically subdue them when they refuse to comply to authority you didn't have in the first place.

[BBatesokc]

So does failing to show ID now rise to the level of "an aggressive stance"? If so, wow. I find it interesting that they don't release video of the interaction that led to the take down - I am sure at this point the general public would not define it as "aggressive" in nature.

So someone who was not a participant in a crime is now required to show ID or else?

For the record - I don't think these cops are evil, just incompetent.

It does when you pull away and make comments that lead police to believe you are not going to comply (which was backed up by witness statements). His rights were not being violated, the police were making a perfectly legal and understandable request. Just because it could have been handled differently doesn't make how it was handled criminal.

[Urbanized]

I don't know enough about this situation to have an opinion on whether the officers acted appropriately or not before the video begins. I will say that the fact the video starts after the confrontation began in and of itself is not fishy at all. It most likely didn't occur to her to start video until after things got physical and after it was clear he was on the losing end of the battle.

One thing that bugs me in discussions like this is that people see video of overwhelming force being applied during a physical altercation and assume it is wrong and improper for this to happen. As if cops somehow have the responsibility to square off mano-y-mano, toe-to-toe in a "fair fight."

When a civilian elects to get physical with police a serious line has been crossed. At that point LEOs have a responsibility to themselves AND TO THE PUBLIC to subdue the suspect as quickly as possibly, and the way to do that is - simply put - to use more force than the suspect is using. They are trained to do this. It can be unsettling to watch for people who don't regularly witness physical violence.

But failure to subdue a suspect who is willing to hit or otherwise mix it up with cops can lead to death or injury to the officer or to members of the public. Including scenarios where a cop's weapon is taken and used against him. Police also have no idea if a suspect is under the influence of something that clouds their judgement and even gives them outrageous strength. You have to remember there is deadly force present at every incident like this - strapped to the hip of the responding officer - and if they let an angry suspect control a situation things can turn deadly very quickly. It unfortunately happens.

They also don't know if one of the observers will turn participant. It is a very dangerous situation, and the reason why domestic disturbance calls are statistically the most dangerous a cop will go on. They have to gain full control of a situation as quickly as possible, isolate combatants and discourage intervention by others. It's not pretty to watch, but sometimes necessary.

[MustangGT]

I don't know enough about this situation to have an opinion on whether the officers acted appropriately or not before the video begins. I will say that the fact the video starts after the confrontation began in and of itself is not fishy at all. It most likely didn't occur to her to start video until after things got physical and after it was clear he was on the losing end of the battle.

One thing that bugs me in discussions like this is that people see video of overwhelming force being applied during a physical altercation and assume it is wrong and improper for this to happen. As if cops somehow have the responsibility to square off mano-y-mano, toe-to-toe in a "fair fight."

When a civilian elects to get physical with police a serious line has been crossed. At that point LEOs have a responsibility to themselves AND TO THE PUBLIC to subdue the suspect as quickly as possibly, and the way to do that is - simply put - to use more force than the suspect is using. They are trained to do this. It can be unsettling to watch for people who don't regularly witness physical violence.

But failure to subdue a suspect who is willing to hit or otherwise mix it up with cops can lead to death or injury to the officer or to members of the public. Including scenarios where a cop's weapon is taken and used against him. Police also have no idea if a suspect is under the influence of something that clouds their judgement and even gives them outrageous strength. You have to remember there is deadly force present at every incident like this - strapped to the hip of the responding officer - and if they let an angry suspect control a situation things can turn deadly very quickly. It unfortunately happens.

They also don't know if one of the observers will turn participant. It is a very dangerous situation, and the reason why domestic disturbance calls are statistically the most dangerous a cop will go on. They have to gain full control of a situation as quickly as possible, isolate combatants and discourage intervention by others. It's not pretty to watch, but sometimes necessary.

Precisely, a well thought out and reasoned response.

[soonervegas]

I don't know enough about this situation to have an opinion on whether the officers acted appropriately or not before the video begins. I will say that the fact the video starts after the confrontation began in and of itself is not fishy at all. It most likely didn't occur to her to start video until after things got physical and after it was clear he was on the losing end of the battle.

Just for the record....if this was in reference to my post - I was referencing the video from the Warren that was released in the media yesterday evening. They show multiple police officers walking towards I am assuming the deceased (prior to any take down or physical confrontation) and then it cut to cops having him on the ground using force to detain. I would figure if was open and shut they would show the whole video including the "aggressive stance." My bet is that they are uncomfortable showing that portion because it wouldn't pass the smell test of the commoners definition of aggressive stance.

I agree that she (the wife) probably didn't hit her camera till the scuffle began.

[zookeeper]

A lot to say when I really don't want to say anything. It's draining...but I can't sit back and read the posts who absolve these men of their criminal actions. It's not a matter of it "could have been handled better." It's the fact they killed that man and missing video, cozy relations, and lack of guts have given this crew a free pass. What a message that sends.

These last few posts bring things back to what I was harping about at the time of the incident. Why are civilians expected to be approached by several armed police officers - acting as if you've done something wrong - and expect that person NOT to be agitated? We don't all have on-off switches that can regulate our reactions on a dime. The goal for those officers should have been de-escalation and instead they proceeded to be confrontational back, which further agitated the victim and we end up with these officers who can't stand to be challenged (goes back to my problem with such a huge percentage of local officers being Iraq and Afghanistan veterans who were trained not to keep the peace but to wage war), and round we go, it ends up solely the fault of the agitated and now deceased victim. Shame.

As for the video (now videos): anytime there's something edited out when there's no stated reason (as has happened with the Warren Theater video) and it is so obviously edited, one has to ask the question: why? Combine it with the video taken by he daughter, which is bad enough, and you have reasons for this to be handed over to the U.S. Attorney. Coats has been rather quiet, but this is a case he should pick-up and look at closely. Let's see if a federal grand jury would be so forgiving as Mr. Mashburn.

I think we're seeing a sharp escalation of police violence, and the ways things are so often mishandled, because of the militarization of local police - vehicles, weapons, gear, uniforms, and most importantly - personnel. There was a day when somebody agitated at the presence of police was seen as normal and the officers would use simple measures to de-escalate. Today, so many of these ex-military officers are too gung-ho, cocky, (use your own word), and are fueled for confrontation. This has to stop. Investigations by local departments policing their own (as OKC does) and even the too-close connection with the local DA (as in Moore) has to be looked at with an eye of suspicion. The death of this man was something very close to, maybe was, murder - certainly manslaughter charges just from the public evidence. The health of the man has nothing to do with being manhandled and having your face stuffed down into the concrete. They killed him. It's either okay or it's not. The U.S. Attorney should step in and look at the missing video, look at all of this again, and hold the officers (maybe just a certain officer) responsible and he be taken off the streets and brought to justice.

Brian, I know you know your stuff when it comes to dealing with the OKC police, but you also know what it's like to be the victim of a witch-hunt. Imagine if you were dead and unable to defend yourself when you did and you weren't able to stand up to the system that was stacked against you. Well, this guy can't defend himself, they smothered him to death in the parking lot - or caused the harm that brought about his death. No executions by "law enforcement" in parking lots. Shouldn't happen. Period.

Mr. Coats - stand up and be heard for justice and make your voice be one more warning to the high testosterone fueled ex-military, many who show time and time again that they obviously cannot make the transition from warrior to law enforcement. Work with the FBI, take it to a federal grand jury, let there be justice.

This is already too long, but I could say so much more. The non-action from Mashburn is cowardly and despicable, his own "investigation" should also be a part of U.S. Attorney Coats investigation, if he chooses to step in and say "not so fast" to this unjust process we have seen unfold.

[Mel]

I just don't want that to happen to me. I have spinal stenosis in my neck and lumbar and bad asthma. In the good ol' days they called dying like this Crushing (execution) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

[RadicalModerate]

A lot to say when I really don't want to say anything. It's draining...but I can't sit back and read the posts who absolve these men of their criminal actions. It's not a matter of it "could have been handled better." It's the fact they killed that man and missing video, cozy relations, and lack of guts have given this crew a free pass. What a message that sends.

These last few posts bring things back to what I was harping about at the time of the incident. Why are civilians expected to be approached by several armed police officers - acting as if you've done something wrong - and expect that person NOT to be agitated? We don't all have on-off switches that can regulate our reactions on a dime. The goal for those officers should have been de-escalation and instead they proceeded to be confrontational back, which further agitated the victim and we end up with these officers who can't stand to be challenged (goes back to my problem with such a huge percentage of local officers being Iraq and Afghanistan veterans who were trained not to keep the peace but to wage war), and round we go, it ends up solely the fault of the agitated and now deceased victim. Shame.

As for the video (now videos): anytime there's something edited out when there's no stated reason (as has happened with the Warren Theater video) and it is so obviously edited, one has to ask the question: why? Combine it with the video taken by he daughter, which is bad enough, and you have reasons for this to be handed over to the U.S. Attorney. Coats has been rather quiet, but this is a case he should pick-up and look at closely. Let's see if a federal grand jury would be so forgiving as Mr. Mashburn.

I think we're seeing a sharp escalation of police violence, and the ways things are so often mishandled, because of the militarization of local police - vehicles, weapons, gear, uniforms, and most importantly - personnel. There was a day when somebody agitated at the presence of police was seen as normal and the officers would use simple measures to de-escalate. Today, so many of these ex-military officers are too gung-ho, cocky, (use your own word), and are fueled for confrontation. This has to stop. Investigations by local departments policing their own (as OKC does) and even the too-close connection with the local DA (as in Moore) has to be looked at with an eye of suspicion. The death of this man was something very close to, maybe was, murder - certainly manslaughter charges just from the public evidence. The health of the man has nothing to do with being manhandled and having your face stuffed down into the concrete. They killed him. It's either okay or it's not. The U.S. Attorney should step in and look at the missing video, look at all of this again, and hold the officers (maybe just a certain officer) responsible and he be taken off the streets and brought to justice.

Brian, I know you know your stuff when it comes to dealing with the OKC police, but you also know what it's like to be the victim of a witch-hunt. Imagine if you were dead and unable to defend yourself when you did and you weren't able to stand up to the system that was stacked against you. Well, this guy can't defend himself, they smothered him to death in the parking lot - or caused the harm that brought about his death. No executions by "law enforcement" in parking lots. Shouldn't happen. Period.

Mr. Coats - stand up and be heard for justice and make your voice be one more warning to the high testosterone fueled ex-military, many who show time and time again that they obviously cannot make the transition from warrior to law enforcement. Work with the FBI, take it to a federal grand jury, let there be justice.

This is already too long, but I could say so much more. The non-action from Mashburn is cowardly and despicable, his own "investigation" should also be a part of U.S. Attorney Coats investigation, if he chooses to step in and say "not so fast" to this unjust process we have seen unfold.

I appreciate your sentiment.
Stepping back, and apprehending the bigger picture, I think it might be prudent, in practice, to realize that we are all just "bozos on this bus."
Or more appropriately metaphorical: "transient bozos on this train being railroaded."

For the sake of simplicity, I think that it is generally a good survival tactic to observe the situation and decide if you are the conductor, the engineer, the fireman, the brakeman, or just a passenger. Then act accordingly.

"You want to see my I.D.? Certainly."
(and when you go for your wallet they say you are going for your gun and shoot you anyways)
(c/o Rickie Lee Jones classic poetry)*1

Yet mostly that response works most of the time.
(Even with off duty Game Rangers posing as Security Guards)

*1


**1a (in case the message delivered by Ms. Jones was too . . . slurry? . . . for the untrained ear or aye =):

She was pregnant in May
Now they're on their way
Dashing thru the snow
To St. John's, here we go

Well, it could be a boy
But it's okay if he's a girl
Oh, these things that grow out of
The things that we give

We should move to the west side
They still believe in things
That give a kid half a chance

When he pulled off the road
Step in a waltz of red moonbeams
Said he fit an APB,
A robbery nearby

And he go for his wallet
And they thought he was going for a gun
And the cops blew Bird away

Some kids like watching Saturday cartoons
Some girls listen to records all day in their rooms
But what do birds leave behind,
of the wings that they came with
If a son's in a tree building model planes?
Skeletons,
Skeletons.

I would like to imagine that that tune played at the "scofflaw's" funeral.
Or, better yet, in the minds of the LEO's involved in the dispute.

[kevinpate]

Now Kevin, don't put words in my mouth. I said the police who were responsible for the murder of the guy in front of the Warren theatre should be charged with 1 st degree murder and charged as such. If it were and I found them guilty, they would be put to death like any other person. I am wishing death on anyone, I am simply removing people from society that are a threat.

Well, see, no, you didn't. If that was what you thought, ok, fine, we disagree and that's that. But what you wrote out, which is what I addressed, was this:

.. If it were me, I would've had those police officers involved put to death, but this wonderful society we have won't even fire them. Have to love it.

Not quite the same sentiment.

[RadicalModerate]

There are "lawyers" and then there are "Lawyers".
In the UK there are Barristers, Solicitors, and Whateverelses Silk-Wearin' SOB's.
(please feel free to note the Oxford Comma in the text, above)

And then there is Mister Pate.

(please don't misinterpret that as a slur, Sir. You are a credit to your profession that flies in the face of stereotyping. =)

(no kidding, no joke. for real.)

even if noting a Freudian SlipTypo for the purpose of educationalism in the finer points of the alignment of truth with imagination could be considered . . . oh what's the correct word for it . . . patronizing? mebbe condescending? =)

[kevinpate]

Submitted simply because some folks clearly do not like the po-po much, and because it made me laugh.

[RadicalModerate]

LOL . . . ^above. Honestly and for real.

The thing that mystifies me, personally (if that phrasing isn't redundant) about the Warren Theater Parking Lot Outrage (currently under discussion) is why the Fat Dad chose to actually slap the Obviously Disrepectful Daughter in a Public Place leading to the Ex-Wife Videotaping the Event.

I think that The Deceased Wuz Framed.
Right along with the LEOs?

(of course, that is only one theory of the case)

No matter what is Right . . . Isn't it now a Moot Point?

PS to Zookeeper: Never try to feed a Tapir through the fence. They may appear to be harmless. They aren't.

[zookeeper]

The thing that mystifies me, personally (if that phrasing isn't redundant) about the Warren Theater Parking Lot Outrage (currently under discussion) is why the Fat Dad chose to actually slap the Obviously Disrepectful Daughter in a Public Place leading to the Ex-Wife Videotaping the Event.

Radical, The Dad never slapped anyone. The mother slapped the daughter. He was, according to both, trying to come between them to keep the peace. That made the mother angry (that he wasn't siding with either one) and she tried to leave. He was chasing after her, calling her name, to stop her from driving off. That's when the cops entered the scene - assuming he was the perpetrator - and why he was angry. He was already upset from the problems with mom and daughter. He was executed for not pulling himself together fast enough. Watch the video again, listen to him try to shout "I can't breathe..." while he is being crushed and smothered. They killed him.

[kevinpate]

zoo, with respect, though not much, your oft repeated assertions of cops are all military thug types with too much gear and authority appear to have taken you far beyond confirmation bias on out to lalaville.

The police did not execute the man. Not sure anyone at anytime in this thread has suggested the police took every conceivable measure for the man to go home safe and unharmed, but you are simply making your crap up, without a shred of regard for the facts, when you spout off that the cops killed, him, executed him, etc. But it's hard to see how the police executed someone who was still alive when the paramedics arrived, took control of their patient and transported him alive from the scene.

[RadicalModerate]

Radical, The Dad never slapped anyone. The mother slapped the daughter. He was, according to both, trying to come between them to keep the peace. That made the mother angry (that he wasn't siding with either one) and she tried to leave. He was chasing after her, calling her name, to stop her from driving off. That's when the cops entered the scene - assuming he was the perpetrator - and why he was angry. He was already upset from the problems with mom and daughter. He was executed for not pulling himself together fast enough. Watch the video again, listen to him try to shout "I can't breathe..." while he is being crushed and smothered. They killed him.

Objection Sustained. (except for the last three words, and maybe the ones immediately preceding them.)
(I don't know what I was thinking, yet I still think everyone involved was "put in the frame" as they say back where Common Law was invented.)

[zookeeper]

zoo, with respect, though not much, your oft repeated assertions of cops are all military thug types with too much gear and authority appear to have taken you far beyond confirmation bias on out to lalaville.

The police did not execute the man. Not sure anyone at anytime in this thread has suggested the police took every conceivable measure for the man to go home safe and unharmed, but you are simply making your crap up, without a shred of regard for the facts, when you spout off that the cops killed, him, executed him, etc. But it's hard to see how the police executed someone who was still alive when the paramedics arrived, took control of their patient and transported him alive from the scene.

Kevin, I have a lot of respect for you which makes your post sting a little. I feel passionately about this issue. You seem pretty even keeled and rarely show a lot of passion (at least on this board) about anything. I don't mean that in a bad way as it's what makes you a well-liked poster. But, Kevin, you wrote "you are simply making your crap up," and that's just not true. That's taking thngs a little too personally because you disagree with my outlook. I have not made up the fact that the local police being militarized - in thinking, attitude, gear, etc. is happening more and more with each passing day. It is well documented and it's influence is in every department - it's part of the LEO culture in 2014.

I think the police were responsible for the man's death and you don't. That's fine. But enough with the lala land and "making crap up" comments. We're different people with different styles and different experiences. It doesn't make me a lesser man, Kevin.

[Dennis Heaton]

I just hate it when some of my "favs" hop in the ring and start pounding on one another. I think I am just gonna take my ice cream cone and go home.

[zookeeper]

I just hate it when some of my "favs" hop in the ring and start pounding on one another. I think I am just gonna take my ice cream cone and go home.

Dennis, I really wasn't pounding on Kevin, really just defending myself. Though, I was surprised at his tone against me. I even missed his "with respect, though not much" until a second reading of his post. Something like this incident is going to bring about strong feelings. I've tried not to direct anything against any other poster. Kevin mentioned "confirmation bias" which actually I think is what is at play here - but on his side and view of things. Which is fine. We see things differently.

[Dennis Heaton]

zookeeper...I wasn't referring to you, specifically. I have a lot of "favs." And I know folks are gonna see things differently, and I have come to appreciate almost everyone's style, their differing points of views, and their individual sense of humors. Better to discuss issues in this way rather than in a Honky Tonk where there's a Waitress bringing 3, 4 or 5 pitchers of beer to the table every 15 minutes.

[Mel]

"bozos on this bus." Firesign Theatre has been one of my favs for a long time.