Live music venue proposed for NW 23rd

[DoctorTaco]

Pete is right; the city could create resident permit parking only for Heritage Hills and that would work. But here's the rub on that - what if a Heritage Hills resident has a holiday party? This would, in effect, make it very, very difficult for them to have more than a couple of visitors who can park in the driveway.

As Pete mentioned, many cities have permitted on-street parking for residents, and 2-hour parking for non-residents. This would allow a two-hour birthday party, at least. Also would require more parking enforcement, but that would probably be revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive for the city due to the fines they'd bring in.

On a larger scale, make a district attractive enough while simultaneously making parking difficult enough and peopole gladly will pay to park. For evidence, see Bricktown on any night of the week. If 23rd turns into an attractive, parking-starved district you will see pay-to-park lots open up in every vacant lot up there (of which there are many).

[AP]

I'm simply confused what Marty Dillon is trying to accomplish. It's bizarre.

It really doesn't make sense. From someone who doesn't have all the facts, it looks like he is trying to hinder development of 23rd. Why anyone would want to do that, I have no idea.

[LakeEffect]

It really doesn't make sense. From someone who doesn't have all the facts, it looks like he is trying to hinder development of 23rd. Why anyone would want to do that, I have no idea.

I definitely don't think it's that nefarious - but I do wonder if ego has gotten in the way. He believes he can still make it happen. Or, maybe he WANTS to believe he can make it happen. If you owned that great property, wouldn't you want people to know that YOU revitalized it, not someone else, especially someone you had to bring in or sell to in order to make it happen?

[CuatrodeMayo]

Well, not sure if anyone in the neighborhood has rebelled. Hopefully they have seen the bigger picture and been tolerant of it. But yeah, on street parking is a bit of a mess radiating a couple of blocks out on busy Plaza nights, including right where my old house is. Maybe I should ask my ex-wife!

I live on Gatewood between 16th and 17th and I can attest that parking is problematic. When I first moved here (pre-Saint's, The Mule, Empire, etc.) it was only Live on the Plaza nights that were a problem. Now it is a pretty much Wednesday-though-Sunday issue. It difficult to keep folks from either blocking my driveway and even parking in it (!).

However, I wouldn't have it any other way. The neighborhood rocks and the parking woes are just a byproduct of a great district.

[tillyato]

I live in Gatewood as well, not as close to the Plaza as Andrew, but we still have parking for Live on the Plaza in front of our house three blocks away. It doesn't bother me though, the Plaza District was a major factor in us choosing to live in Gatewood, and the parking/traffic issues are pretty minor compared to the benefits of living within walking distance to such a vibrant district.

[Paseofreak]

A couple of points I'd like to make regarding this little dust up:

a) These buildings are all pretty old and apparently functioned just fine when occupied by businesses with parking customers, albeit with angled parking in front.

b) This venue (per the e-mail) will seat 200 souls. That's a maximum of 225 cars including staff. Given that the venue is located on the north side of 23rd Street, most will seek parking in the Paseo and Jeff Park area rather than Heritage Heritage Hills.

c) Paseo hosts First Friday monthly and the Paseo Arts Festival which draw many, many more folks than this establishment ever will and it works just fine. I know. I live at 28th and Walker.

d) This venue will operate in the late evening hours. Heritage Hills, Paseo and Jeff Park residents are not entitled to always available, unfettered parking on the street immediately in front of their home at any time of day. However, the demand resulting from this venue will probably not be realized until 8:00 or 9:00 in the evening when most locals will have already occupied their preferred spot, and the tourist's cars will be gone by morning when the locals emerge to go about their days.

e) The Dillon's handling of their properties on 23rd Street is just plain frustrating.

[warreng88]

One of the issues is you are talking about two different groups of people. The majority of the people who own homes in Gatewood (especially closer to 16th street) paid $100-$200k for homes, are younger and moved there for the opportunity to be close to one of the coolest up and coming areas in OKC. I know five couples, all within the ages of 25-40 years old who moved to this area in the last three years.

A lot of the people who live in HH are "old money" and have homes that are $500-$1.5 million homes and have lived there for quite a long time. The majority of the nicer homes are much further south, closer to St Luke's, but that doesn't stop them from thinking hoodlums are going to be taking over their neighborhood.

Oh and my wife works in the Plaza District and easily the busiest time for them is during Live on the Plaza but I have been there the last three years to volunteer (in the morning and in the evening) and have never seen people get too rowdy. The venue could always hire a few off duty police officers to help once the shows are over to make sure people aren't making too much of a ruckus.

[musg8411]

I live in Mesta Park and always wonder why HH is the only neighborhood who gets their opinion considered. I am sure it all comes down to money, but I think if the music venue consulted all the surrounding neighborhoods a different voice might be heard that supports their effort. Which would you rather have homeless sleeping in front of the businesses and lots of transients, or cars on the streets and a spark to revitalize 23rd?

[LakeEffect]

I live in Mesta Park and always wonder why HH is the only neighborhood who gets their opinion considered. I am sure it all comes down to money, but I think if the music venue consulted all the surrounding neighborhoods a different voice might be heard that supports their effort. Which would you rather have homeless sleeping in front of the businesses and lots of transients, or cars on the streets and a spark to revitalize 23rd?

And, thinking about it, Mesta is technically the only neighborhood to the south directly affected. Mesta goes along 22nd street the entire way. HH stops at 21st. (Semantic, I know...)

[HangryHippo]

What other properties along 23rd does Dillon own outside of the Tower Theatre?

[bchris02]

The solution to this is to take 23rd down to two lanes through that corridor and have angled parking. Why is that so difficult to do?

[Pete]

The solution to this is to take 23rd down to two lanes through that corridor and have angled parking. Why is that so difficult to do?

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

[Paseofreak]

What other properties along 23rd does Dillon own outside of the Tower Theatre?

The empty lots across 23rd from The Tower.

[bchris02]

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

Right, and there isn't really an alternate route where thru-traffic can be redirected.

[Paseofreak]

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

But the bottleneck actually occurs at 23rd and I-235/Broadway/Robinson. Outside of that little mess traffic moves just fine.

[Pete]

^

It's always quite heavy -- so much so it's difficult to cross the street.

[HangryHippo]

But the bottleneck actually occurs at 23rd and I-235/Broadway/Robinson. Outside of that little mess traffic moves just fine.

This. That disaster of the on/off ramps for 235 and all the associated stoplights are what really screw things up.

[Dubya61]

This. That disaster of the on/off ramps for 235 and all the associated stoplights are what really screw things up.

No. You've got to have those fly-over ramps, wider streets and stop lights for better movement 6 days a year ... nm. Wrong thread. Still foaming at the mouth.

[Plutonic Panda]

No. You've got to have those fly-over ramps, wider streets and stop lights for better movement 6 days a year ... nm. Wrong thread. Still foaming at the mouth.

i agree. Replace every intersection with tunnels and flyovers to remove stop lights and up the speed limit to 70mph to get to where you need go faster

[bluedogok]

As Pete mentioned, many cities have permitted on-street parking for residents, and 2-hour parking for non-residents. This would allow a two-hour birthday party, at least. Also would require more parking enforcement, but that would probably be revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive for the city due to the fines they'd bring in.

That is how some of the Capitol Hill area here in Denver is, my wife's property is right in the middle of it. They have a lane that is parking from something like 8:00 PM to 6:00 AM and the rest of the time it is a traffic lane. There was an article in the Denver Post a couple of weeks ago about the parking issues where larger condo/apartment developments are being built in place of the smaller complexes they are replacing and not just in Capitol Hill, it is also happening in all of the areas currently transforming into multi-use districts.

[Thunderfan75]

To your point B - the applicant's spokeswoman testified during the urban design commission hearing that this venue would draw 300-400 people per major show, which is expected to occur twice per week.

C - Hosting events once a month in the Paseo is not nearly as intrusive as hosting the same event twice per week from now on.

D - The applicant has likened this concept to the Granada theatre in Dallas. Those doors open at 7 pm every night (and have 200+ parking spots immediately adjacent to the building). How often are you at home for the night by 7? Would you want college kids, drunk or not, hanging outside of your house every night of the week, just a few yards away from your sleeping children?

E - agreed, its frustrating - but of the entire OKC community, they are the only ones that stepped up to the plate, invested their time and money in effort to make it better. I hope they live up to their timeline of spring 2014.

[huskysooner]

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

[bchris02]

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

That's truly a shame, but expected. At least they aren't demolishing structures for surface parking though, meaning it can be easily redeveloped when ownership changes hands.

[Pete]

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

As it's always been that in the past, I don't see how they could be prevented from that use.

I believe the western part of that lot has always been parking, and the eastern was just a couple of houses until they were demolished sometime in the 70's.

[Pete]

D - The applicant has likened this concept to the Granada theatre in Dallas. Those doors open at 7 pm every night (and have 200+ parking spots immediately adjacent to the building). How often are you at home for the night by 7? Would you want college kids, drunk or not, hanging outside of your house every night of the week, just a few yards away from your sleeping children?

This won't be nearly as big or active as the Granada. I spoke with the owner directly about this; most nights will be smallish crowds.

And I believe the assumption that this will be just college kids is incorrect. Live music would attract people of all ages.


I understand the concern of the surrounding homeowners but remember there was a time when 23rd was fully developed and thriving and the area south of 13th was way more dense than it will probably ever be again. Most people who live in HH/MP/JP now only know the last few decades where those entire areas were almost completely abandoned.

People are going to have to get used to a thriving city core and if you can't tolerate someone parking on your street every once in a while or a little increased traffic or more people in the parks, it's probably time to put your house on the market. There will be plenty of buyers.